Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[WhiteQueen]

Mega Altaria should rise back to A because of the set below. It does everything--sweep, defend, support its team, and can paralyze stuff all in one slot. Doing all four things with 4 moves is impressive. Life's been tough for Altaria, but with Body Slam, it has 30% to paralyze all its checks/counters and annoy them as they try to switch in. The EVs should depend on your team. Generally, use 248 HP and 28 Speed (needed to be faster than base 135 after two DDs); the rest can be catered to whatever your team needs. Defense EVs to tank Heracross, Landorus-T, Latios, Lopunny, etc. Special Defense EVs to check Keldeo, Volcanion, Thundurus, Manectric, etc.

Mega Altaria
248 HP / 24 Spe
----
Dragon Dance
Body Slam
Roost
Heal Bell

 

[Shruggy]

Mega Altaria should rise back to A because of the set below. It does everything--sweep, defend, support its team, and can paralyze stuff all in one slot. Doing all four things with 4 moves is impressive. Life's been tough for Altaria, but with Body Slam, it has 30% to paralyze all its checks/counters and annoy them as they try to switch in. The EVs should depend on your team. Generally, use 248 HP and 28 Speed (needed to be faster than base 135 after two DDs); the rest can be catered to whatever your team needs. Defense EVs to tank Heracross, Landorus-T, Latios, Lopunny, etc. Special Defense EVs to check Keldeo, Volcanion, Thundurus, Manectric, etc.

Mega Altaria
248 HP / 24 Spe
----
Dragon Dance
Body Slam
Roost
Heal Bell

Thats interesting, did something change recently? Because i tried to make this set a long time ago and it said that it was invalid (i think heal bell + body slam) so thats pretty qt if its been changed

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Thats interesting, did something change recently? Because i tried to make this set a long time ago and it said that it was invalid (i think heal bell + body slam) so thats pretty qt if its been changed

Perhaps you accidentally had cloud nine? It's legal otherwise.

 

[WhiteQueen]

Yes, Cloud Nine is illegal with Body Slam. Need to use Natural Cure instead.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Mega Altaria should rise back to A because of the set below. It does everything--sweep, defend, support its team, and can paralyze stuff all in one slot. Doing all four things with 4 moves is impressive. Life's been tough for Altaria, but with Body Slam, it has 30% to paralyze all its checks/counters and annoy them as they try to switch in. The EVs should depend on your team. Generally, use 248 HP and 28 Speed (needed to be faster than base 135 after two DDs); the rest can be catered to whatever your team needs. Defense EVs to tank Heracross, Landorus-T, Latios, Lopunny, etc. Special Defense EVs to check Keldeo, Volcanion, Thundurus, Manectric, etc.

Mega Altaria
248 HP / 24 Spe
----
Dragon Dance
Body Slam
Roost
Heal Bell

I disagree with this, Mega Altaria has been on a steady decline in general. I find it suffers from 4MSS to a large degree, there's always something i desperately want, wether it be earthquake, fire blast or refresh/substitute. And even when you're running a very highely invested one, like you are, you struggle with outspeeding relevant threats. And not only that, the glory days of Altaria have't been forgetting, and people adapted accordingly, Talonflame, Scizor and Weavile being excellenet is a huge problem for Altaria.

It does everything--sweep, defend, support its team, and can paralyze stuff all in one slot.

Does it really? Even if you're making the argument that Altaria is a cleric, why wouldn't I use Clefable for this? Like, I could literally replace Altaria with Clefable and it would do exactly this. Sweep, defend and provide team support. Altaria's bulk is for the most part over-rated, it doesn't really fit on common team archtypes because it doesn't really hold up.
Even if I were to put all of those match ups in your favour, Altaria is still just a little to weak and to prone to hazards to effectively check afformentioned pokemon. But it's also somewhat passive. We all know the checks that work against Altaria, because a few months back Altaria was easily the best pokemon in OU, but of course, people prepare and adapt. And I'm not saying that it's horrible because it demands team support, almost every pokemon in the game demands team support, bar a few silly exceptions (Looking at you Primal Groudon), but Altaria has surefire counters that are difficult to switch into, that it's never going to break.

Just my two cents,

Thank you for describing Latios.

Please don't roast me again ;_;

 

[NotSoClutch]

I'd like to make a nomination for Zapdos to B. I've been testing a pressure stall team recently and I have to say that I am really impressed with sub roost Zapdos right now. With 72 speed and timid, you can pressure stall typical stall breakers like Heatran and Togekiss. Zapdos is also a pretty strong check to stallbreaker Talonflame and absolutely destroys stall teams with pressure + substitute. Whenever Zapdos gets up a sub, the opponent is put at such a massive disadvantage that the game becomes a simple matter of patience to eventually pull out the win. The replay below is one of many examples of Zapdos running away with a game (unfortunately, most of the time the games take 100 turns, so I picked a forfeit, but it showcases the chain reaction effect that Zapdos can create in any given game).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-360890665

Zapdos in the stall mirror, is the real reason I believe Zapdos became stronger. With Hoopa-U leaving the tier, the number of viable stall breakers is more limited and more easily contained by Zapdos and it also theoretically makes stall stronger as a whole (although this remains to be seen with the current fluctuations in the meta). When paired with any kind of cleric and an unaware Pokemon, Zapdos becomes really nice addition to any bulky team.

 

[Fire Fist Ace]

I feel like the introduction of Volcanion will hurt the viability of certain Pokemon. While it is fairly new to the meta, it still takes a hot, steaming dump (pun not intended) on a good number of OU Waters, and a good number of Fire types. It's morely annoying when firing off its own brand of Scald on steroids, creating 50/50 situations of fucking you up similar to when we had Aegislash.

I'm not nominating it for anything, but I consider this mon to put a thorn in the side of a decent number of Pokemon higher on the list. Just some food for thought when you nominate something for a new ranking a month or so down the road.

 

[HailFall]

Zapdos to B: Agree

I really dont see how something pretty decent like zapdos ends up in the same rank as garb like tentacruel. It has good typing that lets it check key threats like torn-t, mega scizor, ferrothorn, mega pinsir, and jirachi while also being a defog user with reliable recovery, a good ability, decent bulk, decent offensive presence without investment, and an okay speed tier.

 

[Subjugator]

I feel like the introduction of Volcanion will hurt the viability of certain Pokemon. While it is fairly new to the meta, it still takes a hot, steaming dump (pun not intended) on a good number of OU Waters, and a good number of Fire types. It's morely annoying when firing off its own brand of Scald on steroids, creating 50/50 situations of fucking you up similar to when we had Aegislash.

I agree with you that Volcanion hurts the viability of certain Pokemon, and because of Water Absorb, it can laugh off the protests of several Pokemon. However, when you think about it, Volcanion cannot really do much back against Water-Types. Let's take Manaphy for example. It switches into a +3 Scald and gains a chunk of HP back. It laughs off Ice Beam, too. Now, Volcanion's movepool is somewhat shallow and only really consists of a buffed-up Scald, Fire Blast/thrower, Sludge Bomb, E-Power and a HP of your choice, none of which can hit any of the premier Water-types for substantial damage. It isn't very uncommon to have Manaphy run a coverage move such as Psychic or Energy Ball, and those can definitely break past Volcanion:

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 223-263 (61.2 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Factor in possibilities that Volcanion carries a Life Orb, and Manaphy can set up another Tail Glow, stomach Sludge Bomb or Earth Power, then use another coverage move.

There's also Keldeo. Keldeo isn't weak to any of Volcanion's usual moves and Calm Mind in it's face, or use Secret Sword. Secret Sword probably won't do deadly damage considering Volcanion's above average bulk, but on the other hand, Keldeo also now has a setup fodder.

The only OU Water I can think of that actually loses to Volcanion is Azumarill, which is because of it's resistance to both of it's STABs, and ability to use Sludge Bomb.

At most, Volcanion is a good pivot into Water-Types when versing Waters. It's definitely a good Pokemon, but I think you're kind of overrating the fact that it "takes a hot, steaming dump on a good number of OU Waters".

 

[Martin]

In Volc's defense here the dumping it does is primarily on fat waters, as it can come in on their Scalds and happily fish for burns/poison depending on what you expect the opponent to do. Ofc offensive waters are gonna make its life hard, but even then they all hate getting residual damage unnecessarily from status. Manaphy can Rain Dance if it wants, but then they're severely weakened (not gonna do the calcs now, but I guarantee that 2 Sludge Bombs do a chunk). Assuming CM Keld is used for whatever reason, Volc still just poison fishes on it if it comes in before its set up, and it can probably also break subs at +1 SpD too. Its not a perfect matchup for Volc, sure, but neither is it for Keldeo either if it lacks Focus Blast or HP Elec.

 

[GlassVeins]

I have a question: a long time ago (at least 40 pages or so), we were considering zoroack for D rank because it got gunk shot. Now I haven't really had much time to play with it (or play in general recently), but I was wondering whether it was still worth considering. It's niche is completely unique, and it can surprise the heck out of many teams if played right.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I have a question: a long time ago (at least 40 pages or so), we were considering zoroack for D rank because it got gunk shot. Now I haven't really had much time to play with it (or play in general recently), but I was wondering whether it was still worth considering. It's niche is completely unique, and it can surprise the heck out of many teams if played right.

Do you, by chance, mean sludge bomb?
Furthermore, zoroark is harmed greatly by its mediocre stats, which makes its illusions rather less useful. Even resisted hits that seem SE can 2hko.

 

[bludz]

I was hoping that whole Zoroark thing had been forgotten. It's still terrible and Sludge Bomb didn't help its viability enough to consider ranking it. The entire argument for its viability is essentially based on the gimmick that is its ability.

Also I know the rule is technically "no unranked nominations without replays" but please refrain from talking about unranked mons unless it's a nomination. Cuz honestly this is sort of just a loophole within the rules to talk about terrible mons without bringing forth replay evidence as to why they're even worth discussing.

e: wording

 

[QuickBH]

Just would like to say that you can still use niche teams using mons that aren't in the ranking thread it can still work wonderfully.

It's just that they're rather gimmicky so it's relatively inconsistent, but I guarantee you you can make a Zoroark team and get to 1800s but you gotta be innovative. I don't think a Pokemon that will be used in maybe 1 or 2 teams should be ranked as of yet.

 

[Subjugator]

Oh wow. I didn't notice that Zapdos was in B-. Anyways I think it should move up due to it's intrinsic qualities as one of the only defensive Electric-Types, a defogger that doesn't necessarily lose to Bisharp (the only other two common defoggers that don't either are Skarmory and Mandibuzz), and it's all-around decent stats. It should be B, but no higher than that.
However, it must be noted that Static was almost useless for Zapdos, as it cannot be used in conjunction with Defog. Defog is definitely one of Zapdos's main reasons of use, so that is a real let down.

 

[Eclipse]

I actually disagree with the idea that Zapdos' best set involves Defog. There are personally better Defoggers out there, ones that don't take 25% of their health from trying to remove them. Zapdos is great due to its defensive capabilities, and its best sets (IMO) are the physically defensive set with Discharge/Volt Switch + Heat Wave + Roost + Toxic and Static, and its SubToxic set with Pressure. Electric/Flying is just a great typing, and it can act as a very nice pivot with the PhysDef Static set I just mentioned that makes physical contact attackers such as Scizor afraid to click their moves on the off chance that they get para'd, and SubToxic is great for wearing down the opponent and draining their PP with Pressure. Zapdos is just a very reliable defensive pokemon that has much better things to be doing than simply clearing hazards, and B rank is a perfect fit for it.

 

[Psycho Unleashed]

->A

Alakazam-Mega is known for its attack, speed and intense hyper offense overall. It outspeeds most of the tier and has attack to OHKO lots of things, especially with it's 3-move wonder movepool. Alakazam-Mega is frail overall. With the vast amounts of priority that exists today, Alakazam-Mega is rather frail. Whether Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed, Pursuit, etc. Alakazam-Mega cannot take it very well. Pokemon like Blissey can easily wall it, and it exists almost only on Hyper Offense, meaning that it doesn't have as many partners as you expect to switch into priority Pokemon. So that's why I nominate it's drop.

I've heard the argument that Hoopa-U was priority-weak and frail in defense, but Alakazam-Mega is much more frail, and defense weak

 

[MANNAT]

Seconding the zapdos nom, the thing is a menace on defensive teams and offers quite a bit of role compression and can really do a good job dealing with things that are big threats to stall teams like mpinsir+mon to lure/trap skarm, lo tornt, and others. By virtue of its ability pressure in conjunction with its access to roost, it can run a really good subtoxic set to toxic stall opponents hp as well as their pp without sacrificing its ability to wall certain threats to stall. A physically defensive set with static sounds appealing, but I'm not really sure how much that 30% para chance is gonna turn out to help you since para's can actually be detrimental in a lot of scenarios, specifically when trying to pp stall shit ironically. It's still a great mon and can blanket check a ton of shit for stall, so I think that it really should rise up to B.

 

[SaiyanMaster95]

Volcanion cannot really do much back against Water-Types.

There's also Keldeo. Keldeo isn't weak to any of Volcanion's usual moves and Calm Mind in it's face, or use Secret Sword. Secret Sword probably won't do deadly damage considering Volcanion's above average bulk, but on the other hand, Keldeo also now has a setup fodder.

The only OU Water I can think of that actually loses to Volcanion is Azumarill, which is because of it's resistance to both of it's STABs, and ability to use Sludge Bomb.

Hold up, I think you underestimate Volcanion.

calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 140-165 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 148-174 (43.4 - 51%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Factor in burns and the premiere OU waters are all 2HKOed easily with Steam Eruption. They can't switch in. Manaphy needs a Tail Glow up before Volcanion comes in to 2HKO it, Keldeo needs to not be locked into a water move or needs a CM/sub up prior to Volcanion's entrance to beat it. Volcanion is not set up fodder for it. I will say, standard defensive Rotom can't switch in, but it does do like 60% with Volt Switch.

Also, you mentioned Life Orb, but I think most people are taking more of a liking to Specs sets.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

->A

Alakazam-Mega is known for its attack, speed and intense hyper offense overall. It outspeeds most of the tier and has attack to OHKO lots of things, especially with it's 3-move wonder movepool. Alakazam-Mega is frail overall. With the vast amounts of priority that exists today, Alakazam-Mega is rather frail. Whether Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed, Pursuit, etc. Alakazam-Mega cannot take it very well. Pokemon like Blissey can easily wall it, and it exists almost only on Hyper Offense, meaning that it doesn't have as many partners as you expect to switch into priority Pokemon. So that's why I nominate it's drop.

I've heard the argument that Hoopa-U was priority-weak and frail in defense, but Alakazam-Mega is much more frail, and defense weak

So literally your only argument is that it's frail?

Almost every sweeper is prone to getting revenge killed. Not to mention, Mega Alakazam is harder to revenge kill than the others due to its Speed, with priority usually having to outspeed it. Extreme Speed isn't common in OU outside of Dragonite, there aren't that many Pursuit users in the tier, and while I guess you have a point with Sucker Punch that's about it.

"Pokemon like Blissey can easily wall it"

Blissey is not very good in OU, I think you meant to say Chansey instead. And outside of Chansey, everything else that full-on hard counters is on Blissey's level.

"I've heard the argument that Hoopa-U was priority-weak and frail in defense, but Alakazam-Mega is much more frail, and defense weak"

Pretty sure that Speed has something to do with it.

 

[MANNAT]

->A

Alakazam-Mega is known for its attack, speed and intense hyper offense overall. It outspeeds most of the tier and has attack to OHKO lots of things, especially with it's 3-move wonder movepool. Alakazam-Mega is frail overall. With the vast amounts of priority that exists today, Alakazam-Mega is rather frail. Whether Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed, Pursuit, etc. Alakazam-Mega cannot take it very well. Pokemon like Blissey can easily wall it, and it exists almost only on Hyper Offense, meaning that it doesn't have as many partners as you expect to switch into priority Pokemon. So that's why I nominate it's drop.

I've heard the argument that Hoopa-U was priority-weak and frail in defense, but Alakazam-Mega is much more frail, and defense weak

This entire post is kinda just wrong. It being frail isn't a big deal since it can outspeed basically anything and most offensive teams have mons like RH Lando or tankchomp to punish priority abusers regardless, not to mention that zam can actually live quite a few priority hits aside from the really strong ones like bisharp sucker and talon bb. Most pursuiters are too slow and get focus blasted by zam, so that doesn't really make sense. Chansey/Blissey walling it isn't a big deal since they "exist almost only" on stall "meaning that it doesn't have as many partners are you expect to switch into" mons that threaten them. Being frail as a sweeper has never been a huge reason for mons dropping, nor should it be in the first place, and that's pretty much your only argument. If you look through even A+ rank, thundy lop talon weavile are all really frail and lose to x mon, but that doesn't mean they are A rank mons lol. You really should reconsider your reasoning if you want to make a better argument for it to drop.

 

[Gary]

Mega Zam is very strong right now, in fact I'd say that Volcanion's presence has only made it more useful. It's a fantastic offensive check to it as it is immune to Steam Eruption when it traces Water Absorb and can use it to set up a free CM or Sub. It also loves the increase in bulky Water-type as it is able to use them as set up fodder as well, which in turn can help out Volcanion which, what a surprise, is a pretty solid partner as Zam is a great check to offense while Volc breaks down balance and makes it easier for Zam to sweep. The influx in T-tar and other Pursuit trappers might be a bit annoying for it, but it's not like it had to deal with those already anyway. Terrakion is making a huge comeback right now and Zam is a fantastic check to it as well. The decrease in Azu is great for it too, as it hates Banded Jets and the rarer but still viable AV Azu was an annoying check to it.

Nothing has really changed in the meta to make Mega Zam worthy of a drop, quite the contrary the meta seems to be favoring it atm. The banning of Hoopa no longer forces it to run a shitty coverage move in Signal Beam just to beat one Pokemon. I'd say the only thing it really dislikes is the increase in Mega Latias, but again, it's not like Mega Zam lacks ways of working around it with Encore or CM, and Shadow Ball still hurts quite a bit. Dropping it because it's frail is a terrible argument, as we've all seen from Hoopa-U that fragility doesn't necessarily = less viable.

 

[CallMeLefty]

I do not see how your argument are even supposed to change anything in the viability ranking. Saying that it should drop because its frail is invalid, we move mons because the meta has made them worse: your arguments would mean that the council, and all the people that have built the ranking, did not know zam was frail.
However they did: zam is not supposed to take hits, but is a premier sweeper (the above posters have explained it really well). Simply, the only reason for zam to drop would be because the meta is more hostile to it, which means that all the arguments that got it in A+ are now less valid. However my upper neighbours have clearly shown the opposite. Thus, zam really still is A+ worthy.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

i think the guy gets it. Mega Alakazam sits comfortably in A+ due to the aforementioned reasons. There's no need to beat his post down to the dirt with 5+ replies and discourage him from participating in the forums. And yes, i do feel strongly about this in what's supposed to be a positive community.

 

[bludz]

Mini-Update to accommodate Volcanion to the rankings and welcome back Hoopa-C

Volcanion Unranked -> A+
Tyranitar A -> A+
Mega Manectric A -> A-
Raikou A- -> B+
Latias A- -> B+
Nidoking C+ -> B
Hoopa-C Unranked -> C+
Sylveon C+ -> C-

Updating OP now