Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[sneaky.]

I'm going to nom chansey to A-. I legitimately thought this thing was already somewhere in A but was surprised to find it in B+. Chansey has the luxury of eating up any special attack in the game and even some strong physical hits. If all your physical attackers are dead and your opponent's chansey is still alive you might as well just click X. This mon checks so many things it's ridiculous. You don't even have to worry about focus blasts because they do nothing anyway. As long as you know the opponent is using a special move all you gotta do is click chansey. It's also difficult to wear down chansey with status because of heal bell and natural cure. There's no question why this monster is crucial to stall teams.

Once you're in on a special attacker you are free to do pretty much anything. It can Thunderwave/Toxic to cripple things (which discourages physical mons to switch in), get up rocks, clear status from your team, softboiled or seismic toss to do a decent amount of damage.

However chansey is kinda easy to predict and taunt shuts it down, but it's reliability and sheer ability to EASILY tank any special attack warrants it a spot in A- imo. I hardly ever use chansey but I see it all the time on the ladder and it's so annoying to deal with it.

Everyone knows the power of this thing but im gonna post some calcs anyway using the 4 hp 252 def 252 spdef set.

calcs

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 220-259 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168(22.1 - 26.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 139-165 (21.6 - 25.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Subjugator]

Okay I'm armed with a Lenny avatar, and a glass of week-old ginger ale and I'm ready to shit out my opinion.

Latias:
There is almost no reason to use Latias. Literally, there will always be another Pokemon that can replicate it's job. What if you decide to go Offensive, with Defog? Latios does that, only with higher Special Attack and the greater ability to pressure checks such as Bisharp and Tyranitar. How about Calm Mind? Mega Latias does that, and so does Mega Slowbro, but both aformentioned Pokemon are fat af and are much harder to take down than Latias. Latias is just another one of those Dragons that are extremely outclassed by other Dragons, just as Salamence, Flygon, Kingdra, Tyrantrum, and many others have in the past. Drop

Chansey:
Chansey is possibly the weirdest mon in the game which makes it difficult to write a thorough opinion on it. However, the fact that it counters ~80% of special attackers, and sponges status, and carries very useful utility and support means that it definitely has qualities that would merit a rank in A-. On the other hand, anything with Taunt almost always wins against it, a lack of any offensive presence, and reliably on its item all are very important flaws, but these pale in comparison to the game's best special wall, one of the most common staples to Stall, and the sheer amount of versatility that it brings makes me conclude that it should rise. Rise

Mega Slowbro:
I agree with others that this is underrated and is extremely hard to take down given the right support. However, I don't think that overall, it is as good as regular Slowbro, who is more splashable and arguably more versatile, so I think that it is fine where it is. I'm pretty sure that someone else mentioned this that many of the offensive threats in A, A+/S destroy Mega Slowbro, including Serperior, Thundurus, (Specs)Hoopa-Unbound, Mega Manectric, Gengar, and highly-ranked defensive threats aren't particularly fucked by Mega Slowbro either, such as Mega Sableye, Mega Venusaur, Clefable, and Rotom-Wash. Stay

Sylveon:
Lol "unranked"? LMFAO! I've been lurking in this thread for a while (Tobes) and there is always the point where someone nominates something so radical, that it turns out to be interesting. Such is demonstrated here. The first thing that comes to mind is that unranking an OU mon in the first place seems kind of weird. There will be those who disagree with me, but this is my opinion. Next, Sylveon is a great nuke that can actually do some serious damage with Specs. It's bulk isn't bad, either. I do think that it should drop, but nothing below C. Drop, but do not unrank

 

[Alfalfa]

No one's retarded enough to live slowbro in vs these mons lol. Also, keep in mind that mane, gengar, and, hoopa are all suceptible to getting pursuit trapped by hoopa while weavile can pursuit trap serp, gengar, and hoopa (but not mane since it's slower and not fat enough to stomach hits from it.). Thundy and mana are the only ones not terribly threatened by pursuit trapping, but thundy falls to one quick stone edge from ttar or one icicle crash from weavile (or even shard after rocks iirc) if it stays in to predict the pursuit, so it's not a great answer. Manaphy generally rapes fat shit in the higher ranks like msab and friends, but that's why I think kyub is a good partner for it since it beats hoopa, elecs, mana, serp, and even some gengar sets that lack focus blast.

Hoopa doesn't learn Pursuit. Also, Weavile does not want to stay in on Mega Manectric unless Mana is at -2, because Overheat OHKOs and Flamethrower will OHKO 50% of the time after a round of Life Orb recoil.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

Well, here's a nomination I've been wanting to make.

Tangrowth to A-

The defensive qualities of Tangrowth far outclasses that of Amoonguss. And while it does not get spore and relies on Sleep powder to put things to sleep it still does not need to function in such a capacity. It may also not get clear smog, but it is a great physical wall and with AV can sponge hits from both sides. I'd also like to point out that it has more of an offensive prowess than Amoonguss, with access to Knock Off, Earthquake, Poison Jab, Rock Slide, and Focus Blast. This makes it a much less passive wall than that of Amoonguss and thus I believe it should rise.

 

[Aragorn the King]

Quick interjection: Hoopa-U was removed as per the results of the suspect test.

CelticEdit: let's wait say 72 hours before making noms based on Hoopa's banning.

 

[TURBODERP]

Yea, regular Latias needs to drop to B+. As a Defogger, you're better off using Latios (or Mega Latias) because that tiny bit of added bulk will almost never actually matter, while the extra power is actually quite useful. You're straight up worse than Mega Latias, which has vastly superior bulk, and yea Healing Wish is nice but ScarfRachi does that better and if you're running Healing Wish, you don't have a slot for Recover and you're gonna get worn down fast (god help you if you get Pursuit Trapped or Knocked Off).

Also, dunno if this is supported, but thoughts on moving Gastrodon to A- everyone? I'm feeling that Gastrodon is just gonna keep getting better, especially as Volcanion springs into usage (and not all will be running HP Grass, which Volcanion needs to beat Gastrodon), and powerful wall breakers like LO Kyurem-B and LO Thundurus (Gastro beats both) rise up again to bust stall/balance open rise up again. Sure, you're fodder for Zard Y/Mega Venusaur/anything with grass coverage, but you still wall a lot of important things, and with Curse, you're a win condition that is immune to Scald and Thunder Wave, which is nice as hell.

Another nomination because hell, why not: Slowking to B+. CM Slowking is pretty legit since it sets up on a lot of things and still does your things like checking Specs Keldeo and the like. Mixed Defensive variants are better at halting special attackers (you can even phase out TG Manaphy with Dragon Tail) while still walling things like Mega Metagross, and Offensive AV/Specs/Trick Room+Nasty Plot sets are all actually quite viable, since you have a wider movepool (Signal Beam to hit Celebi lol) and more SpA to hurt things with.

 

[BuzzkillAmpharos]

0 SpA Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 332-392 (102.7 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 SpA Amoonguss Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Amoon does have a much easier time switching into things like Azu and keldeo, it always takes a hit, gets switched into with something else, and is forced out while Tangrowth can "easily" take a hit from Keldeo and deliver back a strong hit. The argument that non-AV variants take a ton from special attacks is exactly why Tangrowth is meant to be switched in and out, it's true that helmet tangy can't take any powerful special attacks, but it can also take down some of its threats without them expecting it. It's unpredictability in its vast moveset makes it a bit harder to switch into because until you've used all 4 moves. With Amoon it's some variant of spore, sludge bomb, Giga drain, synthesis, clear smog, and hp fire. And yes, this calc is used to show the offensive difference between Tangrowth and Amoonguss and I am aware Amoon does not get Leaf Storm.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I personally agree with Latias dropping to B+, with that said, I just want to say the "Rachi is a better HW passer" or "Latios is stronger" is a sort of meh argument. Although absolutely true, Latias is a more supportive 'mon than Latios and scarf Jirachi. Yes, Latios is more powerful, Scarf rachi is annoying and has HW, however, Latias removes hazards AND ensures one of your 'mons has a second chance, something Scarf Rachi and Latios cannot do. Again I agree it should drop simply because the role it usually has isn't as stellar as it used to be. However, it is capable of doing both and I feel that B+ is more appropriate for that. As a defogger, it is significantly less potent than Latios, as a HW passer it's less potent than Scarf Rachi, however, although not absolutely amazing, Latias is capable of doing both. A- still sort of works as it does have the niche I described before, however, like I said, that niche isn't as coveted anymore.

 

[MANNAT]

I personally agree with Latias dropping to B+, with that said, I just want to say the "Rachi is a better HW passer" or "Latios is stronger" is a sort of meh argument. Although absolutely true, Latias is a more supportive 'mon than Latios and scarf Jirachi. Yes, Latios is more powerful, Scarf rachi is annoying and has HW, however, Latias removes hazards AND ensures one of your 'mons has a second chance, something Scarf Rachi and Latios cannot do. Again I agree it should drop simply because the role it usually has isn't as stellar as it used to be. However, it is capable of doing both and I feel that B+ is more appropriate for that. As a defogger, it is significantly less potent than Latios, as a HW passer it's less potent than Scarf Rachi, however, although not absolutely amazing, Latias is capable of doing both. A- still sort of works as it does have the niche I described before, however, like I said, that niche isn't as coveted anymore.

yeah but the thing is that latias's main niche over latios is supposed to be its bulk aside from hw, but with hw it is forced to forego roost, making it less bulky than latios in the long run. HW is nice, but it's not good enough for the amount of consideration that you are giving.

 

[bludz]

Hi. This post is a preemptive strike in response to the potential missile shower that would be questions regarding the rank of Hoopa-C after the banning of its counterpart.

Hoopa-C was essentially totally unviable because Hoopa-U outclassed it by so much. For this reason not many people have much experience with Hoopa-C and thus discussions on its rank would probably be mostly uninformed.

We the ranking team ask that you do not make a nomination regarding its rank yet. We will soon decide on a preliminary rank in which to place it at which point the floor will be deemed open for discussion regarding its placement.

Thanks

Edit: this applies to Volcanion as well

 

[HailFall]

I don't like the idea of rising gastrodon because of what we *think* a volcanion meta might be like. It hasn't even come out yet so I would much rather wait a little.

 

[WhiteQueen]

I'm going to nom chansey to A-. I legitimately thought this thing was already somewhere in A but was surprised to find it in B+. Chansey has the luxury of eating up any special attack in the game and even some strong physical hits. If all your physical attackers are dead and your opponent's chansey is still alive you might as well just click X. This mon checks so many things it's ridiculous. You don't even have to worry about focus blasts because they do nothing anyway. As long as you know the opponent is using a special move all you gotta do is click chansey. It's also difficult to wear down chansey with status because of heal bell and natural cure. There's no question why this monster is crucial to stall teams.

Once you're in on a special attacker you are free to do pretty much anything. It can Thunderwave/Toxic to cripple things (which discourages physical mons to switch in), get up rocks, clear status from your team, softboiled or seismic toss to do a decent amount of damage.

However chansey is kinda easy to predict and taunt shuts it down, but it's reliability and sheer ability to EASILY tank any special attack warrants it a spot in A- imo. I hardly ever use chansey but I see it all the time on the ladder and it's so annoying to deal with it.

Everyone knows the power of this thing but im gonna post some calcs anyway using the 4 hp 252 def 252 spdef set.

calcs

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 220-259 (34.2 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 142-168(22.1 - 26.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 139-165 (21.6 - 25.7%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

This guy knows what he's talking about, and I agree with him wholeheartedly. Chansey is amazing and deserves to be ranked higher than B+. It takes a very devastating Close Combat from a powerhouse like Mega-Heracross to even think about OHKOing her. She's so strong and powerful, and definitely deserves at least an A- rank. Her fatness is simply unbreakable.

 

[ethanlol]

Yeah I think the ability to switch-in to SpA and just be a really big nuisance warrants it to be A-. Toxic and Thunderwave are really crippling and make her even more hard to deal with. It pressures fighting types such as Breloom, Keldeo, etc from directly switching in. But I think Chansey is able to wear down a lot of mons and forces a lot of switchins from special attackers such as Kyurem. I think she is still balanced due to the prevalence of taunt users in the tier such as Heatran, Keldeo, Gardevoir and the popularity of things like SubSeed Serp and SD Chomps and Landos can be a struggle for Chansey to 6-0. Pretty decent in this meta.

 

[Gary]

I stand by what I said in the metagame thread, and I really don't think Hoopa-C is going to deserve THAT much of a rise even with Hoopa-U leaving. One of the biggest selling points of Hoopa-U was its versatility, and although its best set was by far Specs, it could still run a very strong Band, Mixed, and Scarf set, all of which could be tailored to fit your team because of its insane coverage. Hoopa-C just doesn't have that versatility at all, and Specs seems like the only viable set worth running. All of its other sets such as OTR, NP, and Scarf, are either too weak, too slow, or struggle to set up. While it hits comparably hard to Unbound, the biggest downside of Hoopa-C is how it's practically the worst Pursuit bait in the entire tier. Being 4x weak to one of the best moves in the metagame with T-tars and Weaviles everywhere is a huge thorn in its side, and unlike Unbound which could still tank a Pursuit from full health if need be, Hoopa-C just dies without even switching out. Basically, any Pokemon with Pursuit that comes in for free on it will kill it almost 100% of the time, so it requires you to use god like prediction all the time and play super aggressively versus teams that pack Pursuit, which is most of them.

As an offensive spinblocker, it only really does decently well versus Starmie, but it can't reliably switch into it at all as it is easily 2HKOed by Analytic Hydro or Psyshock. Defensive Starmie is pretty ass so obviously it can spinblock it pretty well. Excadrill just straight OHKOes. Hoopa-C also doesn't even 6-0 stall anymore, because any good stall team these days is running Pursuit.

I'm not saying Hoopa-C doesn't deserve a small bump, because I'm sure it's at least viable with Hoopa-U gone, but saying that it's practically the best replacement to Hoopa-U in the tier? Hell no. There are so many better wallbreakers out there to choose from that hit just as hard but lack as many exploitable weaknesses, such as Mega Gard, Mega Hera, Mega Medi, and now the new Volcanion. Hoopa-U wasn't splashable but it was so good at wallbreaking it was well worth using on your team even if that meant stacking weaknesses. Hoopa-C is not worth that.

 

[Kutscher]

I stand by what I said in the metagame thread, and I really don't think Hoopa-C is going to deserve THAT much of a rise even with Hoopa-U leaving. One of the biggest selling points of Hoopa-U was its versatility, and although its best set was by far Specs, it could still run a very strong Band, Mixed, and Scarf set, all of which could be tailored to fit your team because of its insane coverage. Hoopa-C just doesn't have that versatility at all, and Specs seems like the only viable set worth running. All of its other sets such as OTR, NP, and Scarf, are either too weak, too slow, or struggle to set up. While it hits comparably hard to Unbound, the biggest downside of Hoopa-C is how it's practically the worst Pursuit bait in the entire tier. Being 4x weak to one of the best moves in the metagame with T-tars and Weaviles everywhere is a huge thorn in its side, and unlike Unbound which could still tank a Pursuit from full health if need be, Hoopa-C just dies without even switching out. Basically, any Pokemon with Pursuit that comes in for free on it will kill it almost 100% of the time, so it requires you to use god like prediction all the time and play super aggressively versus teams that pack Pursuit, which is most of them.

As an offensive spinblocker, it only really does decently well versus Starmie, but it can't reliably switch into it at all as it is easily 2HKOed by Analytic Hydro or Psyshock. Defensive Starmie is pretty ass so obviously it can spinblock it pretty well. Excadrill just straight OHKOes. Hoopa-C also doesn't even 6-0 stall anymore, because any good stall team these days is running Pursuit.

I'm not saying Hoopa-C doesn't deserve a small bump, because I'm sure it's at least viable with Hoopa-U gone, but saying that it's practically the best replacement to Hoopa-U in the tier? Hell no. There are so many better wallbreakers out there to choose from that hit just as hard but lack as many exploitable weaknesses, such as Mega Gard, Mega Hera, Mega Medi, and now the new Volcanion. Hoopa-U wasn't splashable but it was so good at wallbreaking it was well worth using on your team even if that meant stacking weaknesses. Hoopa-C is not worth that.

While i agree With you in most part, hoopa-c can spinblock tentacruel and (lol) forretress too. Also idk if specs will be that great, because face huge competition with mega garde as a special wallbreaker, subnp looks sonewhat viable because of beating stall bar pursuitet(if you run focus miss you have a chance) and unaware clefable, also it have some options like wow and taunt. But i think it will probably be placed around B- or C

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

Latias: A- to B+ ​

While regular Latias can definitely still be used effectively, its viability has gone down for a few reasons. First off, its fact that it's sandwich'ed between Latios (a powerhouse) and Mega Latias (bulkier, checks things much better such as Keldeo and Thundurus). Using regular Latias (with a Life Orb) awkwardly puts it in a place where it
can't do either's job (wallbreaking on Latios or checking/walling everything on Mega Latias) as well and end up being relatively mediocre because of it. The only reason to use it over the other two is Offensive Healing Wish (which Jirachi does better imo), but even this move presents problems for it. To use it, it has to give up either Defog or Roost (Draco and Psyshock are basically mandatory), which is a major issue because both of those moves are really important and hard to give up (Roost is the most important of the two moves imo as it keeps it healthy for Keldeo/Thundurus/others, but Defog is always nice support), or it has to forefit using Healing Wish altogether, which also sucks. Without Healing Wish, Latias loses the biggest thing it had over Latios (Latias's bulk is nice but Latios isn't exactly frail and your team should have more than a regular Lati to check Thundurus + friends imo), and it suffers because of it. Concerning Latias's power, base 110 combined with a Life Orb is pretty strong, but Latios still outdamages it by a good deal (base 130) ,while still having nice bulk. Mega Latias, while consuming a Mega slot, is able to use stuff like Calm Mind and Thunder Wave (and even Defog and Healing Wish if wanted), more effectively due to its superior bulk.

TL;DR Latios is worse than both Latios and Mega Latias overall, and there's not a huge reason it should be used (only if your team is super weak to Thundurus/Keldeo and you really want a Lati), and it should fall to B+ because of it imo.

 

[Martin]

Yeah I have a really bad habit of making big posts when I can barely hold my eyes open lmao please don't judge me if any of this sounds mentally retarded
With regards to the Latias discussion, I want to bring one thing to the table: Volcanion. Please note that I an completely neutral on Latias (I've never really felt that its as bad as people constantly say it is tbh, but similarly I understand why it gets the flack that it does and can honestly see it in either A- and B+). I am just doing this to play Devil's Advocate so that this isn't an entirely one-sided.

Latias's extra bulk comes into play in the Volcanion matchup. To demonstrate, let me show you two calcs:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 135-160 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

The differene is about 10% damage, give or take, and you could argue that the burn rate comes into play too. However, something which Latias has the luxury of doing that Latios doesn't is investing in bulk. I'm not going to spend ages calculating an optimal spread which accounts for the burn rate right now because I am on tablet and the browser is buggy as-is (that and three-stat calculation can take hours to do correctly), but what I an trying to show here is that, unlike Latios, Latias can act as a consistent stop to it. Latios is a one-time check if it does anything but Roost on the first turn its out, and this can be easily exploited by its opponent going out to stuff like Tyranitar to take this thing on. Latias's ability to have that little bit of extra freedom after coming in allows for the mindgame to turn into a 50:50, which doesn't happen in the Latios matchup, as it can afford to either stay in and KO Volcanion (184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 253-300 (79.3 - 94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock; 184 SpA Life Orb Latias Thunderbolt vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 234-278 (73.3 - 87.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) or double out expecting a Tyranitar switch to something which can take it out (e.g. Dugtrio) and still have enough health be able to check it again more time, allowing it to be able to Roost up later on in the match without fearing Tyranitar anymore.

As for the whole Healing Wish thing, people often neglect two things: Latias is able to forgo Defog (especially in a metagame like this one where hazard clearance is argubly slightly out of favor for momentum reasons) and Latias is able to run mono-attacking much better than Latios can due to its better bulk+pool of supportive options. This means that it does not need to sacrifice Roost in order to run Healing Wish, meaning it does not lose the ability to function consistently. There is the argument that Defog is Latias' key niche, but I'd argue that it isn't a brilliant Defioger anyway due to the omnipresence of Tyranitar which entirely discourages the use of Defog due to it using it for a free trap. This is, tbh, part of why I am very much on the fence about Latias, as a meta where it can't consistently Defog is naturally not going to favor it much, but regardless having this idea that Latias is pinned down to Defog has always baffled me a bit.

Like I said before, I'm completely neutral on this and am merely playing devil's advocate. Go ahead and shoot down anything in this post; there are likely to be holes, I won't attempt to defend it and will probably not make another post on the topic.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Yeah I have a really bad habit of making big posts when I can barely hold my eyes open lmao please don't judge me if any of this sounds mentally retarded
With regards to the Latias discussion, I want to bring one thing to the table: Volcanion. Please note that I an completely neutral on Latias (I've never really felt that its as bad as people constantly say it is tbh, but similarly I understand why it gets the flack that it does and can honestly see it in either A- and B+). I am just doing this to play Devil's Advocate so that this isn't an entirely one-sided.

Latias's extra bulk comes into play in the Volcanion matchup. To demonstrate, let me show you two calcs:

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 135-160 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

The differene is about 10% damage, give or take, and you could argue that the burn rate comes into play too. However, something which Latias has the luxury of doing that Latios doesn't is investing in bulk. I'm not going to spend ages calculating an optimal spread which accounts for the burn rate right now because I am on tablet and the browser is buggy as-is (that and three-stat calculation can take hours to do correctly), but what I an trying to show here is that, unlike Latios, Latias can act as a consistent stop to it. Latios is a one-time check if it does anything but Roost on the first turn its out, and this can be easily exploited by its opponent going out to stuff like Tyranitar to take this thing on. Latias's ability to have that little bit of extra freedom after coming in allows for the mindgame to turn into a 50:50, which doesn't happen in the Latios matchup, as it can afford to either stay in and KO Volcanion (184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 253-300 (79.3 - 94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock; 184 SpA Life Orb Latias Thunderbolt vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Volcanion: 234-278 (73.3 - 87.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) or double out expecting a Tyranitar switch to something which can take it out (e.g. Dugtrio) and still have enough health be able to check it again more time, allowing it to be able to Roost up later on in the match without fearing Tyranitar anymore.

As for the whole Healing Wish thing, people often neglect two things: Latias is able to forgo Defog (especially in a metagame like this one where hazard clearance is argubly slightly out of favor for momentum reasons) and Latias is able to run mono-attacking much better than Latios can due to its better bulk+pool of supportive options. This means that it does not need to sacrifice Roost in order to run Healing Wish, meaning it does not lose the ability to function consistently. There is the argument that Defog is Latias' key niche, but I'd argue that it isn't a brilliant Defioger anyway due to the omnipresence of Tyranitar which entirely discourages the use of Defog due to it using it for a free trap. This is, tbh, part of why I am very much on the fence about Latias, as a meta where it can't consistently Defog is naturally not going to favor it much, but regardless having this idea that Latias is pinned down to Defog has always baffled me a bit.

Like I said before, I'm completely neutral on this and am merely playing devil's advocate. Go ahead and shoot down anything in this post; there are likely to be holes, I won't attempt to defend it and will probably not make another post on the topic.

We all know you just want more latias in the tier to curb your trapping addiction.

I think the issue with latias as a Volcanion counter is that you only actually counter Volcanion if it doesn't land a burn (at least with the current spread). Otherwise the residual damage from life orb + burn will create a 2HKO scenario.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

This is also assuming that Volcanion won't be running HP ice. While it currently seems like HP Grass is the preferred hidden power, it's tough to project exactly what Volcanion based teams will actually need to cover.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Ice vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I personally believe Latias should drop for the reasons others have mentioned and I don't think the Volcanion counter argument holds enough weight at the current moment. It's possible that eventually someone will find the perfect latias set for the post Volcanion meta and it rises again, but at the moment it just doesn't seem A- strong to me personally. Latias to B+

 

[MANNAT]

We all know you just want more latias in the tier to curb your trapping addiction.

I think the issue with latias as a Volcanion counter is that you only actually counter Volcanion if it doesn't land a burn (at least with the current spread). Otherwise the residual damage from life orb + burn will create a 2HKO scenario.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 118-139 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

This is also assuming that Volcanion won't be running HP ice. While it currently seems like HP Grass is the preferred hidden power, it's tough to project exactly what Volcanion based teams will actually need to cover. Running latias without defog for offensive momentum reasons is just dumb since you can just run a

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Ice vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 172-204 (53.9 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I personally believe Latias should drop for the reasons others have mentioned and I don't think the Volcanion counter argument holds enough weight at the current moment. It's possible that eventually someone will find the perfect latias set for the post Volcanion meta and it rises again, but at the moment it just doesn't seem A- strong to me personally. Latias to B+

latias should probably drop, but volc just came out recently ago and isn't even ranked yet, let's at least wait until it's ranked to use volcanion in viability arguments. But seriously, hw is done better by rachi, and offensive defog is done better by latios. running roost is retarded since it makes u forego hw and without roost, latios ends up being bulkier in the long run, so I don't really see any reason to keep it in A- just because of HW+Defog on the same set Also, about gamer boy's point about running roost over defog, that's just stupid since the reason that you're foregoing defog is for offensive pressure and latios is much better at applying offensive pressure due to its higher attacking stat and opponents can make aggressive doubles to gain momentum themselves when ur forced to roost vs shit like LO Thund.

 

[NotSoClutch]

latias should probably drop, but volc just came out recently ago and isn't even ranked yet, let's at least wait until it's ranked to use volcanion in viability arguments. But seriously, hw is done better by rachi, and offensive defog is done better by latios. running roost is retarded since it makes u forego hw and without roost, latios ends up being bulkier in the long run, so I don't really see any reason to keep it in A- just because of HW+Defog on the same set Also, about gamer boy's point about running roost over defog, that's just stupid since the reason that you're foregoing defog is for offensive pressure and latios is much better at applying offensive pressure due to its higher attacking stat and opponents can make aggressive doubles to gain momentum themselves when ur forced to roost vs shit like LO Thund.

I agree, but in that case wouldn't it be potentially smarter to wait on re ranking latias until after Volcanion has found it's place in the meta? gamer boy does bring up a good point about Latias being better against Volcanion than Latios in theory, so if we wait for the meta to settle a bit, it may prove strong enough to be in A-.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

I feel like I'm going to regret posting here, but here goes.
Tangrowth B+ ---> A-
The Physically Defensive set is fantastic, halting many strong physical attackers in the tier like Garchomp, Dragonite, Excadrill, Landorus-T, Lopunny, Azumarill and Metagross. Whereas its main competitor Amoonguss can get overwhelmed by Garchomp, Landorus-T or Excadrill at +2, Tangrowth is capable of taking them on with a coverage move like HP Ice or Earthquake or crippling them with stun spore or sleep powder.

Scenarios where you switch in on the Swords Dance:

Tangrowth

Against Offensive Life Orb Garchomp:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Fire Fang vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Tangrowth: 231-273 (57.3 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Tangrowth: 320-376 (79.4 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against Life Orb Adamant Excadrill:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Tangrowth: 242-285 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against Double Dance Landorus-T:
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 228+ Def Tangrowth: 163-192 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Amoonguss

Against Offensive Life Orb Garchomp:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 383-452 (88.8 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Against Life Orb Adamant Excadrill:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 430-508 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Against Double Dance Landorus-T:
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 349-412 (80.9 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Outside of that, it has great utility options in Knock off, Leech Seed, and Stun Spore and Sleep Powder and it fits very nicely with those potent Regenerator cores with Tornadus-T and Slowking/bro.

Slowking B ---> B+
Everyone knows what Slowking does. Checks the many special attackers in the tier quite nicely, namely Keldeo and Latios. It has all of the tools that made Slowbro extremely annoying to deal with including Regenerator, Dragon Tail and Thunder Wave, as well as other options like Calm Mind. Aside from the obvious, Regenerator cores are very potent (and annoying) right now and has the ability to handle a new threat in Volcanion.

Both Slowking and Tangrowth are very good and very underrated mons. They deserve more respect than they get and have no business being all the way down in RU tbh

And btw, Latias should drop. Healing Wish + Defog is nice. But it's not enough to justify its position in A- rank. nor does it justify its use over Mega Latias, Latios or Jirachi on most teams. not much else to say that has already been said though i must admit people are really overstating how "bad" it is.

Mega Heracross is at its peak right now, winning against stall like its nobody's business (sub set is pretty neat) and performing well against bulkier teams (which is the norm rn). Idk if that's enough for it to move up, but it's something to consider.


guess i'll do a tl;dr cuz its the internet
Tang to A-
Slowking to B+
Latias to B+
Mega Heracross?

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I would also like to see Mega Heracross moved to A-. The bulky spread really gave it new life and functions well verses stall and bulky offense which are the leading playstyles right now. It also handles sand (also very common), Bisharp, bolt/beam mega Latias, and Weavile among many others meaning that its matchup against offense isn't as bad as some might suggest. Against offense it's hard enough to switch into and if it gets a Sub up something is definitely dying. The way it mangles common archtypes right now leads me to believe it's better than anything in B+ at the moment

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Latias: A- to B+ ​

While regular Latias can definitely still be used effectively, its viability has gone down for a few reasons. First off, its fact that it's sandwich'ed between Latios (a powerhouse) and Mega Latias (bulkier, checks things much better such as Keldeo and Thundurus). Using regular Latias (with a Life Orb) awkwardly puts it in a place where it
can't do either's job (wallbreaking on Latios or checking/walling everything on Mega Latias) as well and end up being relatively mediocre because of it. The only reason to use it over the other two is Offensive Healing Wish (which Jirachi does better imo), but even this move presents problems for it. To use it, it has to give up either Defog or Roost (Draco and Psyshock are basically mandatory), which is a major issue because both of those moves are really important and hard to give up (Roost is the most important of the two moves imo as it keeps it healthy for Keldeo/Thundurus/others, but Defog is always nice support), or it has to forefit using Healing Wish altogether, which also sucks. Without Healing Wish, Latias loses the biggest thing it had over Latios (Latias's bulk is nice but Latios isn't exactly frail and your team should have more than a regular Lati to check Thundurus + friends imo), and it suffers because of it. Concerning Latias's power, base 110 combined with a Life Orb is pretty strong, but Latios still outdamages it by a good deal (base 130) ,while still having nice bulk. Mega Latias, while consuming a Mega slot, is able to use stuff like Calm Mind and Thunder Wave (and even Defog and Healing Wish if wanted), more effectively due to its superior bulk.

TL;DR Latios is worse than both Latios and Mega Latias overall, and there's not a huge reason it should be used (only if your team is super weak to Thundurus/Keldeo and you really want a Lati), and it should fall to B+ because of it imo.

Why Is this coming now? Latias just lost a huge threat in Hoopa-U, who basically fired of Dark pulse/Hyperspace furies everytime it came in, but not only that, Latias is one of the best counters to Volcanion. Volcanion is also one of its best partners now, being the ultimate steel killer, while also checking various faries who threaten Latias, especially Azumarill.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Why Is this coming now? Latias just lost a huge threat in Hoopa-U, who basically fired of Dark pulse/Hyperspace furies everytime it came in, but not only that, Latias is one of the best counters to Volcanion. Volcanion is also one of its best partners now, being the ultimate steel killer, while also checking various faries who threaten Latias, especially Azumarill.

Thank you for describing Latios.

 

[blank]

for latias to efficiently check all that stuff you want it to check, you sorta need recovery, meaning you miss out on healing wish.

in that case, i don't really understand why you'd run latias > latios or mega latias other than really wanting that extra bit of bulk or (the much more understandable) not having a mega slot. like Vertex said, you really only want latias for healing wish and / or defog on HO teams, and at that point, you're using an inferior keldeo check by not having some form of recovery lol :x

not really much to say here :p. latias should definitely drop to B+ (this should've happened awhile ago, honestly).