Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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Jirachi to A+
Jirachi is the premier pivot for offensive teams. When equipped with a Choice Scarf, it provides a Fairy check, a Psychic check, a Dragon check, a fast U-Turn and also healing wish support; which is valuable in a Bulky-Offence oriented meta. Its obnoxious flinch hax is great for stallbreaking too. Obviously the rise of Volcanion hurts it but Volcanion is one of the better recipients of Healing Wish support and the two have good synergy. Jirachi handles Lati@s and Volcanion takes care of the bulky Water and Fire types. Most physical walls can check it too but Jirachi can just U-Turn or Healing Wish out or lure them in with an entirely different set. Jirachi can also set up Stealth Rock or act as a tank, but I haven't experimented with this much and other people can explain it better than me. I think the splashable offensive pivot who checks a large amount of the Special Attacking meta deserves to be in A+.
I firmly disagree with this. Jirachi's best set right now is choice scarf, which is what I'm assuming is what it's being nommed up for, for the most part. Healing wish suppert is obviously excellent, and flinching things is great, but I feel people leave out a pretty crucial detail. It hits like a sword made of tissue paper. Really, this thing is just so damn weak. If you're not lucky enough with flinching things, Jirachi's power is just awful. Furthermore, once it gets paralyzed, it loses any potency it once had. Now, yeah, many scarfers are really weak to paraysis, but a Jirachi that can't flinch things and can't get off a speedy healing wish is nothing more than a borderline absolute liability. Bulky teams basically only need to worry about this thing when it's using healing wish as jirachi can't hope to muscle past stall staples like talonflame, skarmory, hell, even chansey without a very large amount of consecutive flinches. It Also holds a dubious honor of being a scarfer that struggles to revenge even weakened ZardX and Mega Gyarados. I really don't think that the addition of Volcanion was really too hurtful to Jirachi's viability, but still, it takes pitiful damage from iron head and is another thing that can check faries, giving Jirachi competition as a Fairy check. Landorus-T and Garchomp are still good (and, at least on the ladder, tankchomp is still seen) and are huge roadblocks when it comes to using scarfed jirachi, as it gets chipped by rocky helmet or rough skin damage every time it spams U-turn, which is definitely not a plus.

As for Q10jj34eeDnK comment on U-Turn helping Jirachi evade Pursuit...

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While Jirachi can beat most pursuit users not named bisharp, U-turn does not evade pursuit and if you attempt that on, say, tyranitar, you're gonna have a bad time. I don't really know if i want to go over other sets because while they certainly are useful, they tend to be rather niche compared to the overwhelming popularity of the scarfed set. I'm not trying to completely disregard Jirachi, of course, but a fast Hwish and nice flinching abilities are what made it A and not what will make it A+ for the reasons I stated above.
 

Martin

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Not really cared all that much about this thread recently, at the most just sticking my head in every now and again to make a nom and/or comment. Now is one of those times.

Goodra C --> C+ or B- (imo either is fine, just so long as it is higher than it is atm):

I've used this thing a lot recently and it has been really consistent in general. Its surprising just how beneficial it is to offense to have something that just kinda cockblocks FWG attacks and sponges electric hits, and with offense being hard-pressed to cover that Volcanion+Serperior core that I've seen running around a lot recently due to the fact that Serp just beats a lot of the stuff that pressures Volcanion (plus having an FWG core in two slots is a big relief on teambuilding in general), with Goodra being one of the few Volc counters that Serp doesn't completely maul (I guess MLati too, although it can't prevent Dragon Pulse variants from netting a boost on its switch-in and dealing heavy damage on the following turn like Goodra can). Between its Specs set and its AV set it is just generally a really nice catch-all in the current meta, and on that basis I feel that it is time it moved up.
 
The problem on Jirachi stands on the fact of it have to use physical attacks if want make good use of its ability on a scarf set, but with the regular options in Iron Head/Heart Stamp/U-Turn(and sometimes fire punch) leave it walled by a lot of mons like Bulky Waters and most steel types on the tier, and even dangerous threats cant be reliable Revenge Killed by it, like Bisharp, Zard X, Excadrill, Volcanion and Thundurus. While Scarf Jirachi is the best set on it, it's easy overloaded by hazards/damage from its checks, since Latios' Draco Meteor or MegaZam's Shadow Ball 2hkoes it after rocks, so it can switch on it only two times and it's comparable to Bisharp that can hit very hard, at least. The set you want to use with Jirachi to check Psychic- and Dragon-Types is the Spdef set and it can easily be lured by things like EQ Latios and Fire Blast MAlt.

It's just hard walled by a lot of things, have problems to revenge kill things and the things it is supposed to check can easily worn it down it they powerful attacks or coverage. Anyway, the flinch chance on mons that don't resist it and fast HWish support is always appreciated, but it's easily stopped and isn't that great on this meta. Keep Jirachi on A
 

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Unranked --> D

Ok, so Doublade isn't ranked at all. Do you really think its much worse than the likes of Shuckle and Gourgeist?

I feel like in a way that Doublade is kinda similar to Shedinja. It only really fits on hard stall, and requires very specific team support in order to be effective but if these parameters can be met Doublade definitely has a niche and I think is deserving of a spot on the rankings.

With an Eviolite and max SpD investment Doublade has pretty surprising mixed bulk. Combine that with outstanding defensive typing which grants it 9 resistances and 3 immunities, and you'll find that Doublade just completely hard wall a lot of massive threats to common stall builds in ORAS OU, such as; Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross, Terrakion, and non-HP Fire Latios. Doublade also reliably checks tons of other stuff like Mega Alakazam, Mega Diancie, Dragalge, Mega Pinsir, and Lucario.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 82-97 (25.4 - 30.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 40-50 (12.4 - 15.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 56-66 (17.3 - 20.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 57-68 (17.7 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Doublade: 100-118 (31 - 36.6%) -- possible 7HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 50-59 (15.5 - 18.3%) -- possible 6HKO
I think this is the best set for Doublade:

Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Pursuit
- Toxic
- Rest

Pursuit trapping the likes of Mega Gardevoir, Mega Medicham, Mega Metagross, and even Calm Mind Latios can be amazing support for stall, and I think is 100% worth the moveslot. Rest is fine recovery seeming that you're going to have some sort of reliable cleric like Chansey anyway.
Now I'm not saying Doublade is infallible. I realise it doesn't like Knock Off. I realise it's slow, and reliant on Rest for recovery, but that's why I'm nominating it for D rank. It's not like I'm saying this is some amazing Pokemon, I'm saying that with the right team support has a definite niche in ORAS OU, and I think that should be recognised. I don't think Doublade's shortcomings warrant it the unranked status which it currently holds.

edit: OP says I need a replay to make this nom.
Ben Gay using Doublade Stall in a Smogon Tour
He also used it in SPL
 
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Gary

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Not really cared all that much about this thread recently, at the most just sticking my head in every now and again to make a nom and/or comment. Now is one of those times.
Goodra C --> C+ or B- (imo either is fine, just so long as it is higher than it is atm):
I've used this thing a lot recently and it has been really consistent in general. Its surprising just how beneficial it is to offense to have something that just kinda cockblocks FWG attacks and sponges electric hits, and with offense being hard-pressed to cover that Volcanion+Serperior core that I've seen running around a lot recently due to the fact that Serp just beats a lot of the stuff that pressures Volcanion (plus having an FWG core in two slots is a big relief on teambuilding in general), with Goodra being one of the few Volc counters that Serp doesn't completely maul (I guess MLati too, although it can't prevent Dragon Pulse variants from netting a boost on its switch-in and dealing heavy damage on the following turn like Goodra can). Between its Specs set and its AV set it is just generally a really nice catch-all in the current meta, and on that basis I feel that it is time it moved up.
Yeah I agree with this a lot actually. I made a post about its Specs set in the meta thread, which is really fun to use because of its nuking potential and amazing coverage, making it difficult to switch into. I've also been experimenting with Expert Belt as well after AM said something about it, and I like it almost just as much. While you miss out on quite a bit of OHKOs from Draco Meteor, Goodra gains the ability to become even harder to switch into because you don't have to overpredict. Sludge Wave still easily 2HKOs standard Clef on the switch, and with the ability to change up moves they can't just simply pivot into a Steel-type safely to take the next Sludge Wave, or else they'll be roasted by Fire Blast. It can also stomach most special hits unless they're coming from like Life Orb Latios or Mega Gard's Hyper Voice, so if you keep it healthy enough it can easily check Serp, Volcanion, Zard-Y, Manaphy, Mega Zam, Thundurus, and Mega Manectric. Pairing it with something like Jirachi for Healing Wish support is great for it as well.

I would not bump it up for its AV set tho, I still think that set is the reason why it gets so much flack. Goodra is best used more offensively oriented with a boosting item because its pretty weak without it, and unlike Conkeldurr or Torn-T it lacks ways to recover its health and consistently check what it wants to. That's why I think it should move up to C+ for now, maybe B- later, but it's a LOT better than shit like Mega Banette and Mega Houndoom in C.
 
Since we're all making some great nominations, I guess I'll make one myself.

Hydreigon: B -> B+
Hydreigon is really good right now, it simply mauls those common balances or bulky offenses you usually see, and I'm guilty of it myself since things happen. I also find it a nice dragon to use right now, especially in a Volcanion meta, as it's not total Pursuit bait and still works as a decent check towards it. It also has amazing defensive utility with its simply great typing and solid bulk making it a solid check to a nice amount of threats in the tier and its movepool is actually extremely wide with access to Thunder Wave which is the best move in the game to cripple it's counters, to a simple Taunt + Roost set to massacre common stall teams. It pairs insanely well with a wide range of the looming threats of the tier, like Mega Scizor and Diancie who are objectively two of the best megas right now and they really support it in its downfalls. A few trends really hurt it though such as Clefable still being prevalent and Terrakion / Fighting-types rising to power, but it's pros really outweigh the cons of using it, so please move it up it is so good.
 

Wings of Night

I COULD BE BANNED!
Jirachi to A+ - disagree

I get that checking dragon types, fairy types, zam, maero, lop/weavile revenge, fast healing wish and all that stuff is really nice for offense but I don't like how all of this turns out in practice. The standard Heart Stamp/Iron Head/U-turn/hwish set gets walled by pretty much any steel type so rachi is kinda forced to click u-turn because it loses a ton of momentum due to how weak it is. I mean how often does it have to click u-turn or double because it wants to prevent chomp/(rh) lando/hippo from getting up rocks or taking quite a bit of damage. Same goes to any steel; it can't afford to click Iron Head early game because it risks skarm/ferro/tran getting free hazards, giving bisharp/scizor free setup or even getting trapped by zone and yea pretty much every team has a steel and a ground type. Same applies vs many common threats such as zard-x, talon, rotom, manaphy etc because they can all get a free setup/wisp/we. All of this means that things like Mega Gardevoir, Mega Lop, Maero, KyuB etc can easily take advantage of that, might as well stay in and catch something on the u-turn because like I said clicking anything but u-turn can lose you a lot of momentum early game. I don't even think it's one of the better mons in A. Definitely keep it there.

Landorus-T to S
This is one of the best mons in the entire metagame and the most used pokemon for a couple of obvious reasons. Lando's both offensive and defensive capabilities are just so goddamn impressive. It's hard for me to not justify it on offensive teams tbh because it is super splashable and just does so much. The fact that it can check so many physical attackers and punish them (non ice punch mmeta/medi, lopunny, drill, zard-x, talonflame, opposing lando, chomp, scizor, tyranitar, Terrakion...) while setting rocks vs so much and providing a lot of momentum thanks to u-turn is just too nice. All of its sets are extremely good at what they do; physdef checks a ton of attackers, dual dance is quite threatening for balance and offensive teams which really on opposing lando as lando check, scarf is a really good revenge killer while eplate smack down/gravity gives stall a really hard time. It fits on so many teams and will never be deadweight vs any playstyle while defensive rocky helmet (imo it's best set) is also quite annoying to deal with.
 
just my opinion on a lot of the noms and such lately. i like this discussion.

B-> B+
as much as i used this mon, i think its really good atm. so much due to it being able to switch into a lot of strong special attackers and still be able to dish out a good amount of damage. its ability to pursuit trap latios and latios which are both common switch ins to volcanion at the moment allows metagross to rise in usage and having a role in the metagame. not just switching into latios and latias, its also a decent check to other A+ and S rank pokemon such as clefable, tornadus-t, and diancie-mega while also having good priority with bullet punch. as splashable as this pokemon is atm, i agree with the rise of metagross to B+

A -> A+
jirachi has been a staple in the metagame for as long as i can remember. it can run numerous sets ranging from scarf to specially defensive to a nice lure set it has. its has the ability to do well against a lot of balanced teams and quite a few others with its typing and its ability to cause many switch ins on its own or gaining momentum with u-turn. i think jirachi is fine in A rather than rising to A+ because of the lack in ability to be able to punish latios or latias when it safely switches in on it. jirachi also has average stats and is susceptible to a lot of common defense pokemon that lies above it such as rotomw, landorus-t, garchomp, and ferrothorn which all depends on what the jirachi is running since it cannot run heart stamp iron head uturn healing wish fire punch ice punch in a moveset. rip 4mss keep jirachi A

A+ ->A

can kids stop crying over "oh volcanion volcanion azu sucks now." just shut up, volcanion doesnt effect azumarill to the point wherr it has to drop to A. Volcanion gets worn down pretty easy due to stealth rock weakness can repeatedly switchins into knock off or superpower. azumarill can punish teams easily due to how easy it can belly drum or just flat out cripple pokemon due to how hard it hits. i really dont have much to say on azu as we all know what its capable of other than that volcanion does influence a drop to A. keep azumarill A+

A- ->B+
im not even going to lie, i dont really see why amoonguss rose in the first place, mainly because im more of a tangrowth fan when it comes to handling offensive water types. amoonguss utility moves like spore and clear smog are really good and amoonguss has the bulk behind it as well. the problem i have with amoonguss is how weak it is. the meta mainly revolves around a lot of pokemon with strong offensive an offense presence then you have your chansey stalls here and there. Amoonguss doesnt really have any offense presence behind it and cannot gain momentum outside of spore with luring in something like tangrowth lures heatran with eq. im pretty neutral on amoonguss. (to not contradict a previous post thats before stuff like volcanion existed and stuff >_<)

i wanted to do more but typing a touch screen desktop is painful.
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
can you guys not with the lando to s noms again, it's always been a top a+ mon but not quite s rank, i don't know why theres always so much hype for it every few months where its suddenly expected to rise when nothing favourable in the meta is happening to it.

rofl this came off mini-modish as hell. anyway i'd say things have actually gotten worse for lando, with the rise of phys def tangrowth, volcanion which outpaces defensive sets and forces them to run a considerable amount of speed if it wants to outrun it. still a very solid a+ mon without a doubt though
 
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Martin

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Gonna add to p2's point here. Usage≠viability; usage=splashability, and splashability≠viability. While, yes, Landorus-T is very good and the most used Pokémon in the metagame, the fact is that it is just as good as it was this time last month or whenever it was last nommed. Literally nothing has changed that suggests that it is suddenly deserving of S. Yes, it's splashable; yes, it's versatile; yes, its nice given that sand is running around everywhere. However, these are all of the reasons why it is at the pinacle of A+. When I'm teambuilding, I don't think "oh god I'm not prepped for Lando-T!" I think "oh god I'm not prepped for Ground-types!" and this, I feel, is where the line needs to be drawn. Lando-T as a Pokémon simply isn't restrictive in the teambuilder in the same way that all of the current S-ranks are, and it isn't the best Pokémon in the game like Clefable is. This is precisely why it is A+ as opposed to S, and it is why it will most likely remain there for the rest of the generation.
 
Lucario B- to C.

This is one thing that still confuses me. While it's true that Lucario can be unpredictable in that you don't know immediately if the set you're facing is physical or special, and that Lucario has boosting methods on both ends of the spectrum as well as powerful priority. However, it's simply too slow, meaning that all these strengths are hard to utilize in reality. This means that it's way to reliant on extreme speed to even be relevant against offensive teams, and while it can setup on more defensive teams, its general frailty and existence of things like tank garchomp, defensive lando and quagsire hinders its use significantly. For instance,

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 337-398 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Seriously? I know that garchomp won't most likely be at full health, but you'd expect a +2 close combat to do more than this. And even without attack investment garchomp OHKOs back. Moreover, when will Lucario even get a chance to setup on anything anyways in this meta? It's extremely frail, so making use of its ability Justified is nearly impossible, even against things that it's supposed to check, such as Bisharp. For example:

252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Solid check, 11/10. But seriously, in a situation vs. a bisharp, lucario SHOULD on paper be in the most ideal situation to setup nasty plot/swords dance. However, as we can see, this is not possible. I.e. if Lucario sets up a nasty plot expecting the switch, Bisharp can simply follow up with an iron head and KO its "check" about 50% of the time. And even when setup, it has to rely on the piss weak vacuum wave and bullet punch to have any influence. Why would you want to use this over, say, a Zaptos? The latter offers defog support, momentum in volt switch, a good defensive typing to check things like garchomp, t-flame and pinsir, as well as decent offensive presence. And Lucario? It offers a slim chance to setup to +2 and do like 60% to an opponent with BP or Vaccuum Wave before being KOd. Not much of a B- Pokemon if you ask me.

In terms of its ability vs. offensive teams, it needs to rely on extreme speed, which even at +2, is piss weak.
And with 90 speed, there are so many threats that outpace Lucario that it needs to rely on these priority attacks for a chance. Even under an ideal situation, where Lucario is at +2 in either attacking stat, we can see that even then it's just not good enough:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-238 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Again, we can see that even if Lucario is setup (which is nearly impossible to achieve, as demonstrated earlier with the example against Bisharp), it still doesn't have the offensive capabilities to get the job done. This is a +2 life orbed 80 BP attack, you'd expect it to do more, especially against an offensive Pokemon like Manaphy.

Finally, looking at its role in the team, what does it do exactly? It offers zero defensive utility due to its terrible defensive stats, meaning that it requires extensive team support in the form of volt-switch and U-Turn to get it in safely. And once it's in, what exactly does it do? Against anything faster it has to rely on a priority attack, which will most likely not kill, before being KOd; against a more defensive Pokemon, it can setup, but it lacks the raw power to break past most defensive Pokemon. And against stall, quagsire walls it completely. This makes for a Pokemon that only really works 10% of the time, and more often than not, ends up as a wasted team slot, especially compared to the other Pokemon in B-. For instance, Mega Pidgeott does take up a mega slot, but fills the niche of being able to beat stall with work up+roost+refresh+Hurricane. Thus, Pidgeott is the definition of a B- Pokemon: A Pokemon that you can't just slap on a team and expect to work, but offers a specific niche which can be useful against certain styles of play (ex. stall in Pidgeott's case). Lucario doesn't have this niche: It under performs against both offense both defense, while requiring extensive team support to not be completely dead weight. This makes for a Pokemon, in my view, that deserves to not hold a spot in B-. Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Lucario B- to C.

This is one thing that still confuses me. While it's true that Lucario can be unpredictable in that you don't know immediately if the set you're facing is physical or special, and that Lucario has boosting methods on both ends of the spectrum as well as powerful priority. However, it's simply too slow, meaning that all these strengths are hard to utilize in reality. This means that it's way to reliant on extreme speed to even be relevant against offensive teams, and while it can setup on more defensive teams, its general frailty and existence of things like tank garchomp, defensive lando and quagsire hinders its use significantly. For instance,

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 337-398 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Seriously? I know that garchomp won't most likely be at full health, but you'd expect a +2 close combat to do more than this. And even without attack investment garchomp OHKOs back. Moreover, when will Lucario even get a chance to setup on anything anyways in this meta? It's extremely frail, so making use of its ability Justified is nearly impossible, even against things that it's supposed to check, such as Bisharp. For example:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Solid check, 11/10. But seriously, in a situation vs. a bisharp, lucario SHOULD on paper be in the most ideal situation to setup nasty plot/swords dance. However, as we can see, this is not possible. I.e. if Lucario sets up a nasty plot expecting the switch, Bisharp can simply follow up with an iron head and KO its "check" about 50% of the time. And even when setup, it has to rely on the piss weak vacuum wave and bullet punch to have any influence. Why would you want to use this over, say, a Zaptos? The latter offers defog support, momentum in volt switch, a good defensive typing to check things like garchomp, t-flame and pinsir, as well as decent offensive presence. And Lucario? It offers a slim chance to setup to +2 and do like 60% to an opponent with BP or Vaccuum Wave before being KOd. Not much of a B- Pokemon if you ask me.

In terms of its ability vs. offensive teams, it needs to rely on extreme speed, which even at +2, is piss weak.
And with 90 speed, there are so many threats that outpace Lucario that it needs to rely on these priority attacks for a chance. Even under an ideal situation, where Lucario is at +2 in either attacking stat, we can see that even then it's just not good enough:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-238 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Again, we can see that even if Lucario is setup (which is nearly impossible to achieve, as demonstrated earlier with the example against Bisharp), it still doesn't have the offensive capabilities to get the job done. This is a +2 life orbed 80 BP attack, you'd expect it to do more, especially against an offensive Pokemon like Manaphy.

Finally, looking at its role in the team, what does it do exactly? It offers zero defensive utility due to its terrible defensive stats, meaning that it requires extensive team support in the form of volt-switch and U-Turn to get it in safely. And once it's in, what exactly does it do? Against anything faster it has to rely on a priority attack, which will most likely not kill, before being KOd; against a more defensive Pokemon, it can setup, but it lacks the raw power to break past most defensive Pokemon. And against stall, quagsire walls it completely. This makes for a Pokemon that only really works 10% of the time, and more often than not, ends up as a wasted team slot, especially compared to the other Pokemon in B-. For instance, Mega Pidgeott does take up a mega slot, but fills the niche of being able to beat stall with work up+roost+refresh+Hurricane. Thus, Pidgeott is the definition of a B- Pokemon: A Pokemon that you can't just slap on a team and expect to work, but offers a specific niche which can be useful against certain styles of play (ex. stall in Pidgeott's case). Lucario doesn't have this niche: It under performs against both offense both defense, while requiring extensive team support to not be completely dead weight. This makes for a Pokemon, in my view, that deserves to not hold a spot in B-. Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.
There are several problems with your argument.

The first is that you're not running Adamant for those calcs. Garchomp has a chance to die to +2 Adamant LO Close Combat. Or you can Ice Punch it.

The second problem is that you're comparing it to Zapdos, who has a completely different function from Lucario. Zapdos is often used defensively or for support, while Lucario is a purely offensive Mon meant to clean up late game.

The third problem is that you're expecting it to OHKO shit. Again, you're supposed to use it late game when stuff is weakened enough for it to clean. It doesn't need to kill Manaphy from full, that's not its job.

Can setting up be hard sometimes? Yes. Is Justified situational at best? Yes. But you're making some flawed comparisons here.

That being said, I haven't played a single game of OU in months and honestly have no opinion of its placement. I just feel like your reasoning is a bit flawed and needed to say something.
 
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There are several problems with your argument.

The first is that you're not running Adamant for those calcs. Garchomp has a chance to die to +2 Adamant LO Close Combat. Or you can Ice Punch it.

The second problem is that you're comparing it to Zapdos, who functions differently from Lucario. Zapdos is often used defensively, while Lucario is meant to clean up late game.

The third problem is that you're expecting it to OHKO shit. You're supposed to use it lategame when stuff is weakened enough for it to clean. It doesn't need to kill Manaphy from full, that's not its job.

Can setting up be hard sometimes? Yes. Is Justified situational at best? Yes. But you're making some flawed comparisons here.

I haven't played a single game of OU in months and honestly have no opinion of its placement, but I feel like I need to point this stuff out.

Why would you run an adamant Lucario in the first place? With only 90 base speed, it needs to run a +speed nature to outpace the likes of jolly Excadrill, adamant lando, offensive heatran (with timid), and even things like M-Altaria and M-gyrados if it elects to run a speed enhancing nature (with max investment). In sum, it needs all the speed it can, meaning that it can't afford to run an adamant nature. That is why I chose to run the calcs accounting for a jolly nature.

Also, I'm not comparing Zaptos and Lucario directly in terms of their roles; rather, I'm comparing their usefulness as both B- Pokemon to the team as a whole. My argument is that as a B- Pokemon, something like Zaptos offers much more for the team compared to a Pokemon like Lucario, making Lucario's position as a B- Pokemon questionable.
 
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Why would you run an adamant Lucario in the first place? With only 90 base speed, it needs to run a +speed nature to outpace the likes of jolly Excadrill, adamant lando, offensive heatran (with timid), and even things like M-Altaria and M-gyrados if it elects to run a speed enhancing nature (with max investment). In sum, it needs all the speed it can, meaning that it can't afford to run an adamant nature. That is why I chose to run the calcs accounting for a jolly nature.
Actually Adamant Lucario still outspeeds timid Heatran (by one point), and a lot of Excadrill still run adamant on the sand rush set. The main reason for Adamant is for the extra power it provides, which is way more useful than out speeding a handful of extra mons.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 347-409 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 304-359 (77.1 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 233-274 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-1254-page-51.3553516/page-53#post-6750243

I am not sure if lucario will rise to B anytime soon (B+ would be really high) but dropping it seems totally out of question, i've been using lucario quite often lately and it didn't disappoint me, you don't just want to drop lucario but you want it in C, not in C+ :/ that is really underestimating its potential. Lucario can get SD boosts against pokemon like ferro, some ttar sets, bisharp or chansey but you can simply close combat right away to deal instant damage and that may be good against bulky teams because they sometimes send in quagsire but if you manage to get the SD boost it can be a really dangerous threat, check out these calcs and the ones in Terrakion's post.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 312-368 (102.6 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Amoonguss: 465-550 (107.6 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


It has alot of wallbreaking potential, SD espeed 1hkos frailer mons, atleast after prior damage like entering in the field after taking stealth rock 1/2 times or it can use espeed without SD'ing as a super quick attack that picks off weakened mons like talon after SR and those 38% hp lati@s, you aren't seeing lucario being OU and like A rank because there are other SD steel or fight types like terrakion, bisharp, mega scizor and breloom even tho you can do fightspam or use on the same team as megasciz and lucario can really separate itself from them anyway but the tough part is that even tho it can get SD boosts sometimes and sweep, it doesn't have so many opportunities to SD since it is frail, beaten by some coverage moves and 4MSS is a factor since it's true that espeed is hella useful but since it's a normal type attack, it doesn't boost its coverage and depending on your last move, it is going to be unable to beat certain mons. So yeah, Lucario is a good enough mon and seems alright in B- atm but if anything, it should rise to B, it can be a menace to both offensive and defensive teams.

And taken from smogon's analysis "There's no point in ever using a Jolly nature, because Lucario fails to outspeed anything relevant with it, and doing so would only make it harder for Lucario to perform its role as a late-game cleaner, given the noticeable decrease in power" i think that it only misses on excadrill but that's irrelevant since almost always you are facing it speed boosted by choice scarf or sand rush anyway.
 
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Eclipse

Like a chimp with a machine gun
is a Contributor Alumnus
Lucario B- to C.

This is one thing that still confuses me. While it's true that Lucario can be unpredictable in that you don't know immediately if the set you're facing is physical or special, and that Lucario has boosting methods on both ends of the spectrum as well as powerful priority. However, it's simply too slow, meaning that all these strengths are hard to utilize in reality. This means that it's way to reliant on extreme speed to even be relevant against offensive teams, and while it can setup on more defensive teams, its general frailty and existence of things like tank garchomp, defensive lando and quagsire hinders its use significantly. For instance,

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 337-398 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Seriously? I know that garchomp won't most likely be at full health, but you'd expect a +2 close combat to do more than this. And even without attack investment garchomp OHKOs back. Moreover, when will Lucario even get a chance to setup on anything anyways in this meta? It's extremely frail, so making use of its ability Justified is nearly impossible, even against things that it's supposed to check, such as Bisharp. For example:
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 148-174 (52.6 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Solid check, 11/10. But seriously, in a situation vs. a bisharp, lucario SHOULD on paper be in the most ideal situation to setup nasty plot/swords dance. However, as we can see, this is not possible. I.e. if Lucario sets up a nasty plot expecting the switch, Bisharp can simply follow up with an iron head and KO its "check" about 50% of the time. And even when setup, it has to rely on the piss weak vacuum wave and bullet punch to have any influence. Why would you want to use this over, say, a Zaptos? The latter offers defog support, momentum in volt switch, a good defensive typing to check things like garchomp, t-flame and pinsir, as well as decent offensive presence. And Lucario? It offers a slim chance to setup to +2 and do like 60% to an opponent with BP or Vaccuum Wave before being KOd. Not much of a B- Pokemon if you ask me.

In terms of its ability vs. offensive teams, it needs to rely on extreme speed, which even at +2, is piss weak.
And with 90 speed, there are so many threats that outpace Lucario that it needs to rely on these priority attacks for a chance. Even under an ideal situation, where Lucario is at +2 in either attacking stat, we can see that even then it's just not good enough:

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-238 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Again, we can see that even if Lucario is setup (which is nearly impossible to achieve, as demonstrated earlier with the example against Bisharp), it still doesn't have the offensive capabilities to get the job done. This is a +2 life orbed 80 BP attack, you'd expect it to do more, especially against an offensive Pokemon like Manaphy.

Finally, looking at its role in the team, what does it do exactly? It offers zero defensive utility due to its terrible defensive stats, meaning that it requires extensive team support in the form of volt-switch and U-Turn to get it in safely. And once it's in, what exactly does it do? Against anything faster it has to rely on a priority attack, which will most likely not kill, before being KOd; against a more defensive Pokemon, it can setup, but it lacks the raw power to break past most defensive Pokemon. And against stall, quagsire walls it completely. This makes for a Pokemon that only really works 10% of the time, and more often than not, ends up as a wasted team slot, especially compared to the other Pokemon in B-. For instance, Mega Pidgeott does take up a mega slot, but fills the niche of being able to beat stall with work up+roost+refresh+Hurricane. Thus, Pidgeott is the definition of a B- Pokemon: A Pokemon that you can't just slap on a team and expect to work, but offers a specific niche which can be useful against certain styles of play (ex. stall in Pidgeott's case). Lucario doesn't have this niche: It under performs against both offense both defense, while requiring extensive team support to not be completely dead weight. This makes for a Pokemon, in my view, that deserves to not hold a spot in B-. Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.
Lucario isn't necessarily unpredictable; Nasty Plot Luc is really not that good, as Vacuum Wave is just balls given that most of the stuff that outspeeds you, such as Latios, Tornadus, Mega Zam, etc. really don't mind Vacuum Wave at all compared to if they get hit with a +2 E-Speed. Understand that Lucario's main strength lies in its ability to clean with its strong STAB's and E-Speed which easily takes care of many pokemon faster than it when it gets to +2. While sure, setting up with Lucario may be difficult, its purpose is to clean when its checks are weakened to the point where it can start setting up.

Lucario actually appreciates the bulkier builds that are currently becoming more popular in the meta at the moment, as it can easily set up on things that it forces out, such as Ferro for instance, and pokemon such as Gastrodon or Amoonguss certainly don't appreciate taking its moves at +2. However, its main issues right now lie in the faster mons that can pressure it and prevent it from setting up or cleaning easily as well as being cockblocked by Lando-T and Slowbro, two very prominent mons in the meta right now. However these problems have always been known about in Lucario's case, and that's why it sits in B- to begin with. Pushing it down to C+ would already be too much, let alone C rank. It fills a very viable role in being a strong cleaner despite its frailty, and it should still stay in B- rank.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
lets not be too hasty, given that pursuit is absolutely everywhere at the moment this could be quite good for lucario as it punishes pursuit heavily and is a really scary sweeper once it nabs a boost (ohkos keld from full at +2 with espeed iirc)
ive seen it do pretty well, but i will try it out myself at some point but there's no point in trying to nom luke down when its pretty unexplored in the current meta

edit: doesn't ohko keld at +2 (doesnt need a lot of prior damage though), latios after rocks is more suitable, but still, it can be incredibly threatening to offense late game, shame its 4mss is terrible though
 
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Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Here are some of the noms I don’t agree with :
I get that Volcanion existing makes Azumarill’s life worse, and that it can’t threaten offense as muich as it could, but you have to remember that Azumarill was already one of the best A+ ranks prior to Volcanion’s release, and even bordered on being S rank worthy. Obviously, that’s no longer the case, but it’s still a very splashable and threatening Pokemon, and quite clearly better than everything in A, and I’d argue a handful of A+ ranks too. Keep it where it is.

As great as Scarf Jirachi is for balance and bulky offense (trust me, I use it on like, half my teams), it’s still extremely vulnerable to a lot of very common Pokemon, such as Garchomp, Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and yes, Volcanion. Because of this, it has a really hard time outlasting its checks, and you need to make sure stuff like Gardevoir doesn’t switch in more than once or twice if Jirachi is your only good check to it. So yeah, as much as I like Jirachi at the moment, it’s really not A+ material.

Not sure why this is getting hype now of all times, given that its 2 biggest competitors, Tyranitar and Jirachi, are pretty much at the peak of their effectiveness. And yeah, I guess that Metagross combines their two roles of Pursuit trapper and Fairy check, and it does it pretty well. But really, it does literally nothing else. It’s extremely one-dimensional (or I guess two-dimensional, since it does exactly two things), and is pretty much deadweight outside of its specific niches. TTar and Jirachi, on the other hand, are capable of providing a lot more than just Pursuit and Fairy checking respectively. Usually, even if you do specifically need both these roles filled on your team, you’re better off using either one of these and finding another way to fix your other weakness.

The problem with Doublade is how heavily it relies on Rest. While in theory, it walls a variety of dangerous threats and that’s cool, in practice, it’s usually going to fail to do so because its only recovery is so shitty, and because it doesn’t even get Leftovers recovery to make up for it either.
It’s often going to be forced to Rest immediately after being sent out, since otherwise, it’ll be at too low health to switch in again. And once it does Rest, you need to get a Heal Bell off to actually switch into Gardevoir or Heracross or w/e again. Either that, or you can atempt to Wishpass to it, which a competent player won’t let you do, at least not over and over again.
It’s almost impossible to keep this thing healthy without giving free turns to the opponent, and it’s going to be a burden more often than not, and it’s going to inevitably be a burden vs players who actually know what they’re doing.
Not to mention that if the opponent isn’t using one of the 3 megas or one BL mon it walls, using it is basically pointless. Doublade simply isn’t worth it unless you want to be gimmicky and use XY stall or SD doublade offense or something. It shouldn’t be ranked, and honestly, the fact that it can be considered better than ranked stuff like Shuckle and Mienshao says more about the shittiness of said mons than Doublade’s viability.

Here are some of the noms I do agree with :
Yeah, this thing is pretty neat. Decent power with excellent coverage and surprisingly ok speed, nice defensive applications in being able to wall Serperior which really is a huge pain for a lot of teams, as well as dealing with Electrics and YZard. And of course, being a Volcanion switchin which is neither Pursuit bait nor completely passive is a great perk. It’s definitely more viable than the trash in C rank.

I actually kinda agree with this honestly. My biggest problem with Amoonguss is that once it’s gotten its Spore off, it kinda just sits there. It is admittedly very good at “just sitting there”, thanks to its bulk and Regen, it can keep switching in and out over and over again.
But what this does is severely elongate the battle, and unless you’re using hard stall, that’s not really a good thing. Even balance teams don’t want things lasting too long, since their offensive stuff will eventually get worn down, and their defensive stuff runs a higher and higher risk of getting haxed the more the battle goes on. And unless you can ensure hazards advantage or constant chip damage, repeatidely switching Amoonguss in and out will eventually cause problems.
It’s the same reason I don’t think Chansey should be B+ : it might stay alive, but that won’t prevent everything around it from dying. And although Amoonguss is definitely better since it doesn’t have to waste even more turns healing, it’s still a huge battle-extender, and ultimately, can be a liability on too many teams to be A- imo.

This was offhandedly brought up by ben gay, I’d like to talk about it more though, since it turns out most of the ranking team supports this move. I personally think Gengar should’ve dropped a while ago, I just never got round to suggesting it. And now that Chople and Scarf TTar builds are more popular than ever, it’s starting to seriously struggle.
Despite having probably the best STAB in the tier, Gengar is only really that threatening to balanced teams. Offense has no real excuse for letting it come in, Bulky Offense can also prevent it from switching in most of the time, and even if it doesn’t, it has stuff like Torn-T, Raikou and various faster threats to switch in at least once. Stall usually has a Pursuiter that can check it, and even when it doesn’t, the combination of Chansey and Sableye can usually handle it okay. And with the popularity of Scarf TTar on balance, being Pursuitable is a huge disadvantage for any wallbreaker, hence why Hoopa-C is only C+ rank despite having literally no counters. It has a few nice utility moves, but lacks the bulk to use them well, and forgoing Icy Wind makes fast stuff even more of a pain.
It’s just hard to fit on teams atm since it barely provides anything defensively as opposed to other wallbreakers, and although its speed is a pretty big advantage all things considered, it’s not really enough to keep it A rank imo, I really don’t think it’s better than Starmie atm.

That being said, I’m really unsure about it being 2 whole ranks below Thundurus, which IMO is comparable to it in many ways, and below Kyurem-B, which also has similar problems. I’ve also been playing around with a Specs set, which has been doing surprisingly well due to how spammable Shadow Ball is, and how many things can just barley take one or two from the LO set, and thus, get smashed by Specs. That being said, Specs still suffers from the same problems LO does for the most part, and honestly, I don’t see Gengar as a truly meta-defining threat anymore.

And here are my own suggestions :
I’ve probably said this before but this thing is just completely terrible, I honestly don’t know why it wasn’t unranked alongside Salamence and Haxorus tbh. I guess there are other questionable ranked mons that I could point out, such as like Mienshao, Krookodile, Meloetta, Shuckle and Froslass, but at least they have legitimate, albeit very minor niches. This really doesn’t. The only reason you’d ever use this over Infernape (which is faster, wallbreaks better thanks to its ability to go mixed, and has reliable recovery making it also better defensively), or even over one of the plethora of way better wallbreakers avalible in OU, is as a Dark resist on Trick Room. And even then, there are way better choices such as Crawdaunt, Azumarill, and TTar, which are much less reliant on TR, less vulnerable to common stuff like Talonflame, Garchomp, Latios, and more importantly, don’t kill themselves while attacking.
Emboar should probably never have been ranked in the first place, and removing it from the list is long overdue.

I’m actually really unsure about this one, and to be fair, Gary2346 was the one who originally brought it up, before saying he doesn’t really see MVenu in the same rank as MAlt or MAero.
Personally, I’m completely fine with MVenu and MAlt sharing the same rank, MAero less so, though I have never used/seen it so I can’t comment. MVenu being in the same rank as Amoonguss I really don’t agree with though, but as I said, I want it to drop so w/e.
But yeah, I do think MVenu isn’t too great anymore. Its main selling point is being able to beat a large portion of the metagame at once, including 2 S rank threats (namely Keldeo and Clefable), while also maintaining a good amount of offensive presence. Thing is, it doesn’t do that. It doesn’t beat Keldeo, because it’s eventually going to get burnt, at which point it’s hard pressed to switch into anything. It doesn’t beat Clefable, becuase it’s just going to get TWaved and set up on. This means that, if you use MVenusaur, you still need to find a secondary check to both of these, which kinda defeats the point of using MVenu in the first place.
That’s the problem with MVenu : it’s so prone to chip damage from burns and hazards and sand that it ends up struggling against stuff it should be able to beat. You can run more bulk to take them on more easily, but that just makes you more prone to beaing beaten by stuff like Talonflame or Latios.
Speaking of which, Mega Latias is defenitely better as Mega Venusaur imo : it also acts as a catch-all check to things, and while it’s not as threatening offensively, its extra speed gives it much more flexibility when facing stuff like Keldeo and YZard. MVenu, on the other hand, needs to stay healthy at all times and is constantly pressured, making it pretty easy to overwhelm. It’s not really that good atm, especially with Azumarill becoming slightly less of a threat, and while it’s still a great glue, it’s more on par with MAltaria than MLatias.

Controversial nom time! I actually don’t know how I feel about this one either tbh, and this is less of an actual nom and more of a general discussion point. But I do think Torn-T has gotten worse recently, mainly due to the rise of Sand, and conversely, of Rotom-W, as well as other trends like Scarf Jirachi, Rocky Helmet Landorus-T, Chople TTar and Banded Pursuit Weavile all becoming more popular as of late.
LO is IMO the best set and the set that makes it S rank, it can really break apart defensive teams, but it struggles a bit vs more offensive teams since it can’t really switch in on much, especially the many bulky offense teams that use Rotom-W as a pivot. AV is honestly pretty overrated imo, it tends to struggle vs more bulky teams and is pretty limited in what it can do, although it’s pretty good vs offense.

Overral, I think Torn-T isn’t quite as splashable, consistent, or meta-defining as either of the other current S ranks, and that recent metagame trends have made it less effective. Not sure if this really warrants a drop since it’s still better than almost all of A+, but it’s still something I think should be discussed.
 
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Not commenting on anything else but pls don't unrank Emboar. It's much harder to switch into than Infernape and has the ability to get past Lati@s, Alakazam, Starmie and Gengar, which Infernape dreams of doing unless it uses a lolscarf set.
 
I always thought Emboar's main competition was Victini because they have comparable movesets and roles. And much like Darmanation, Emboar seems outclassed by V-Create. I'm not sure why you'd compare Emboar to Infernape because, besides sharing typing, they are not similar pokemon at all. Agree with Emboar being unranked.

I also agree with Torn-T to A+. It's just not as threatening as the other S ranks and, much like Landorus, I find myself having checks to it on my teams without even trying. I might comment further on it later but, ya it's not on my shitlist of mons to watch out for when teambuilding like Clef and Keldeo are
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Im wondering if mega aero still deserves A- rank. Not necessarialy saying it has to drop but every time I've used it its been a bit mediocre. I've never seen a team that just crumbles to mega aero the same way some teams crumble to other A- mons like terrakion, mega slowbro, or mega pinsir. Aerial ace as flying stab is kinda shit and even after tough claws it's pretty weak. I can't think of any super successful mega aero teams, and it's almost never seen on ladder at least (I don't rlly pay attention to tours so idk if it's at least semi common there). Maero just seems pretty underwhelming overall and the only particularly good thing about it I see is speed. In fact I'm a little baffled it scratched A rank in the first place, so that makes me wonder if I'm failing to consider something important. Anyone have any commentary/opinions on it dropping? Again I'm not necessarialy saying it should, and if anyone can explain what makes it A- rank I'd definitely appreciate it. Just bringing this up for discussion.
 
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I think Volcanion at A+ is pretty overrated. I think it should be A-. It is powerful and it makes waterspammers think twice before clicking the Water move but it is relatively slow and it can't capitalize on much. A wallbreaker that loses to Garchomp. Rotom, can't safely switch into Lando (or even get lured by a 263 speed set), gets bopped by Earth Power Heatran, switches into Slowbro to find itself unable to do much back (though it does pressure Starmie if it is not Thunderbolt ot Toxic). It is also weak to Rocks, has offensive checks like Latios, Keldeo and Torn (though burns are always annoying) plus many fast mons just kill it (especially with its Rocks weakness). It can switch into grass-types like Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn though which is important, I'm not saying it's trash by any means (A- is very far from trash) but I just don't fear it as much when teambuilding as other A and A+ Rank mons. How many of your old teams changed when Volcanion came around because of it? Not many I would guess except maybe some Mega Venusaur teams.
 
I think Volcanion at A+ is pretty overrated. I think it should be A-. It is powerful and it makes waterspammers think twice before clicking the Water move but it is relatively slow and it can't capitalize on much. A wallbreaker that loses to Garchomp. Rotom, can't safely switch into Lando (or even get lured by a 263 speed set), gets bopped by Earth Power Heatran, switches into Slowbro to find itself unable to do much back (though it does pressure Starmie if it is not Thunderbolt ot Toxic). It is also weak to Rocks, has offensive checks like Latios, Keldeo and Torn (though burns are always annoying) plus many fast mons just kill it (especially with its Rocks weakness). It can switch into grass-types like Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn though which is important, I'm not saying it's trash by any means (A- is very far from trash) but I just don't fear it as much when teambuilding as other A and A+ Rank mons. How many of your old teams changed when Volcanion came around because of it? Not many I would guess except maybe some Mega Venusaur teams.
Just no.

A wallbreaker that loses to Garchomp.
Your point?

can't safely switch into Lando
Lando can't exactly safely switch in on Volcanion either.

gets bopped by Earth Power Heatran
I don't think Heatran enjoys switching in on Steam Eruption.

switches into Slowbro to find itself unable to do much back
Yeah, never switch Volcanion in on Slowbro.

It is also weak to Rocks
This can easily be fixed with a hazard remover, and Volcanion synergies well with a lot of them.

has offensive checks like Latios, Keldeo and Torn
So does pretty much every other Pokemon.

many fast mons just kill it
Same with a lot of other Pokemon.



Volcanion has a really good typing, is really popular right now, and provides amazing synergy. You're looking at nothing but its downsides. Its pros outweigh its cons for the most part.
 
Volcanion has a really good typing, is really popular right now, and provides amazing synergy. You're looking at nothing but its downsides. Its pros outweigh its cons for the most part.
To that I agree, A- does not mean bad. It is also fun to build around and has good synergy with many offensive teams as a pivot. You have to take many risks for it to work though. You can bring it in on doubles or on the revenge but not on much. It doesn't capitlize on a good enough amount of bulky mons, that's my main problem with it. It is solid but just not A+.
 
To that I agree, A- does not mean bad. It is also fun to build around and has good synergy with many offensive teams as a pivot. You have to take many risks for it to work though. You can bring it in on doubles or on the revenge but not on much. It doesn't capitlize on a good enough amount of bulky mons, that's my main problem with it. It is solid but just not A+.
I really don't think this is true. If Volcanion was not that good then people wouldn't be using packing underused things like Jellicent and Goodra. The OU tier itself has a little bit of true counters except for M-Latias. It is able to really hinder the effectiveness of stall and is really good vs. balance. Volcanion isn't used for niche reasons it is a legitmate wallbreaker that serperates itself from others by beating all steel types (which i guess Keldeo does) while lacking things that can properly switch in. I have taken a bit of a break from pokemon so I am not sure if anything changed, but Volcanion sort of puts a hard time on teambuilding. It requires some sort of dragon/water type to constantly switch-in. It really constrains teambuilding unless someone doesn't really mind sacking a mon everytime it comes in. It doesn't seem to be a revenge killer since those are usually fast, but volcanion is (specs set) more like a slow bulky wallbreaker. It spiking the usage of M-Latias (which was already growing, Jellicent, and Goodra just to switch into it proves that it's good enough to be able to constrain teambuilders like that. ye i dont know if the meta changed since i took a break so if im wrong that would be mad funny ;D and pls tell me
 
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