Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Thatwackycruton]

I think Volcanion at A+ is pretty overrated. I think it should be A-. It is powerful and it makes waterspammers think twice before clicking the Water move but it is relatively slow and it can't capitalize on much. A wallbreaker that loses to Garchomp. Rotom, can't safely switch into Lando (or even get lured by a 263 speed set), gets bopped by Earth Power Heatran, switches into Slowbro to find itself unable to do much back (though it does pressure Starmie if it is not Thunderbolt ot Toxic). It is also weak to Rocks, has offensive checks like Latios, Keldeo and Torn (though burns are always annoying) plus many fast mons just kill it (especially with its Rocks weakness). It can switch into grass-types like Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn though which is important, I'm not saying it's trash by any means (A- is very far from trash) but I just don't fear it as much when teambuilding as other A and A+ Rank mons. How many of your old teams changed when Volcanion came around because of it? Not many I would guess except maybe some Mega Venusaur teams.

Volcanion, while it is very hyped right now, is still a very important force in the OU metagame. It pairs extremely well with what is arguably the best mon in the tier, Clefable, and is also able to handle it and similar faries with little to no trouble. You claim that it's beaten by garchomp, and while it is true that garchomp can act as a decent check to volcanion, there is absolutely now way that it can switch in on steam eruption- the same goes for Lando-T. It's ability to spread status against fatter builds with not only steam eruption, but also the threat of sludge bomb poisoning a key bulky water, such as slowbro, invalidating it as a counter. Furthermore, Volcanion is a very important mon for keeping Pokemon such as BD azumarril from quickly cutting down offensive teams. While it does have an unfortunate weakness to hazards, it tends to synergize decently well with top hazard removers offensively, easily handling bulky steels for latios and ferrothorn for starmie. Its bulk, especially physically, is excellent, allowing it to go 1 for 1 even against very powerful physical attackers such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Metagross. However, I feel that Volcanion's biggest attribute keeping it in A+ right now is how important it is to the metagame right now. It's added a new dynamic of a good water immunity of offense, keeping some scald users from threating the rest of the teams with burns. Being a pokemon that can spread burns is a scaldlike manner yet still walk all over fat grasses is an enormous boon- teams can no longer slap a celebi, Amoongus, or even on their teams and call it a day against water types, which is a very nice example of teambuilding restrictions that volcanion causes. Not so much that it banworthy by any stretch, but enough to make you keep it in mind when building any bulky team. I think that ethanlol made a nice point when saying that you don't risk much when using volcanion, as its weaknesses aren't too troubling to cover since it already synergizes well with what covers its weaknesses (Like latios's ground immunity) Most of the time, you are sacking a mon when volcanion comes in and, unlike some other wallbreakers, it can come in quite nicely on many stall oriented mons. Amoongus, skarmory, mage sable, and even scalds from certain bulky waters are all invitations for Volcanion to come in, although it doesn't like the potential item removal from Msable. My point is that volcanion, while it is admittedly quite hyped, is still a very important mon in OU, and for the time being, should remain in A+. On a side note, I wouldn't have reacted as forcefully if this were a nom down to A, but A- is certainly far too low for a pokemon like volcanion.

 

[Halcyon.]

Volcanions place in the tier will depend entirely on how the meta shapes post-hoopa ban, and will really start to form during/after world cup. If the meta shifts from very fast and offensive to more bulky offense and baance, Volcanion will shine because of how extra speed doesn't matter as much in that type of meta, and wallbreaking power is much more valuable. If the meta stays offensive, then volcanion may not be as good as it is now, because of its difficulty switching in and its rocks weakness. It's lack of speed will matter much more in this type of metagame.

If the meta shifts towards a stall based one, then God help us all.

 

[Kutscher]

i have a nomination: Empoleon to C+ or C, it's a bad pokemon, with a werid niche, it is supposed to wall some mons like lati@s, clefable, starmie, diancie and non superpower torn-t, but in practice empoleon can't scare any of this mons bar diancie, he can't make scenarios like "oh if keep my mon in front of this empoleon i will obsiously loose him", ok you can phase clefable, but you can't really hurt clef, also she may t-wave you, and in a last case scenario clef would just win, because there's no more mons to swich, Lati@s may have Tbolt, starmie is hard walled, but she can burn empoleon, cripling it a lot, and torn can just use u-turn, ok you can toxic against slowbro and etc, but again, in some point you will not be able to hurt it, and since empoleon lacks recovery it will be worn down more easily than others walls like zapdos and alomola both passive mons in B-. with so many empoleon checks running around it's very hard to empoleon to defog or to set up sr, this is very bad if your team needs a defogger. so a very passive mon, that can't deal with all the mons it is supposed to check, lacks recovery, rely on scald burns to "beat" things and have trouble to do its work (defog/set up rocks) because a lot of things see this as a free kill, doesn't deserve to stay in a rank with things like mega pidgeot, mega sceptile, zapdos and omastar(wtf is this so low?) that can actually do the things they are supposed to do.

 

[Gary]

Yeah as Albacore said, I do think that the meta is very unkind to Mega Venusaur atm, and it no longer fits with the other Pokemon in A rank. While it still walls the same shit and it's still a pretty good glue Pokemon, like Albacore mentioned it honestly fails to check a lot of what it needs to check. Clef just T-waves it and it ironically becomes set up food for it, and then there's shit like Mega Lop which can muscle through it with Power Up Punch sets, Rotom-W and Keldeo burn the fuck out of it, Manaphy can Scald burn it or sometimes carries Psychic, Serp Glares it, etc etc. Sand is a huge pain in the ass for it because it can't consistently spam Synthesis to stay healthy, and it's very hazard prone so with a chip damage and hazards up things like Specs Keldeo and Mega Gyarados can just muscle through it. I might expand more on it later, but tbh if you've played the meta recently it's just really underwhelming atm.

 

[MANNAT]

Lucario B- to C.

This is one thing that still confuses me. While it's true that Lucario can be unpredictable in that you don't know immediately if the set you're facing is physical or special, and that Lucario has boosting methods on both ends of the spectrum as well as powerful priority. However, it's simply too slow, meaning that all these strengths are hard to utilize in reality. This means that it's way to reliant on extreme speed to even be relevant against offensive teams, and while it can setup on more defensive teams, its general frailty and existence of things like tank garchomp, defensive lando and quagsire hinders its use significantly. For instance,

Sorry, but this argument is dead wrong...

Lucario doesn't need to OHKO every mon in the metagame, and you didn't even use adamant in your calcs. It is supposed to be a late game sweeper that takes over when its checks are weakened, not a wallbreaker that blows through teams. Also to your point of quag hindering lucario, it can't even switch in without dying the next turn lol, especially if rocks are up: 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. You really shouldn't be keeping it from staying in B- rank because it can't OHKO ever mon in the tier rofl. Most Lucarios run Ice Punch rn since bulky grounds ruin it otherwise, so chomp and defensive landot both drop to ice punch and you can tell which set they are since u either get rocky helmet or see lefties on landot.

Seriously? I know that garchomp won't most likely be at full health, but you'd expect a +2 close combat to do more than this. And even without attack investment garchomp OHKOs back. Moreover, when will Lucario even get a chance to setup on anything anyways in this meta? It's extremely frail, so making use of its ability Justified is nearly impossible, even against things that it's supposed to check, such as Bisharp.

Considering fat balance and bulky offense is becoming a lot more common rn, lucario can set up on a ton of shit that's on those teams rn like ferro, mag locked into flash, etc. Setting up with offensive mons isn't about tanking a hit and getting a boost, it's about threatening significant members of the opponent's team and setting up as you force them out, since your opponent can't afford to let them die.

Solid check, 11/10. But seriously, in a situation vs. a bisharp, lucario SHOULD on paper be in the most ideal situation to setup nasty plot/swords dance. However, as we can see, this is not possible. I.e. if Lucario sets up a nasty plot expecting the switch, Bisharp can simply follow up with an iron head and KO its "check" about 50% of the time. And even when setup, it has to rely on the piss weak vacuum wave and bullet punch to have any influence. Why would you want to use this over, say, a Zaptos? The latter offers defog support, momentum in volt switch, a good defensive typing to check things like garchomp, t-flame and pinsir, as well as decent offensive presence. And Lucario? It offers a slim chance to setup to +2 and do like 60% to an opponent with BP or Vaccuum Wave before being KOd. Not much of a B- Pokemon if you ask me.

Lucario doesn't die to bisharp's iron head+knock bar 2 max rolls rofl and most of the time, bisharp is a wincondition for opposing teams so they can't really afford to risk sacking it to a lucario firing off a cc, which is really strong vs offensive teams. Vacuum Wave Lucario isn't a thing, and extreme speed is a really strong move vs frail, offensive mons commonly found on HO, considering it can OHKO talonflame, weavile, mgarde, etc. Not to mention that zapdos is only used as a defensive mon and doesn't threaten teams offensively half as much as lucario does.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 201-238 (58.9 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

Finally, looking at its role in the team, what does it do exactly? It offers zero defensive utility due to its terrible defensive stats, meaning that it requires extensive team support in the form of volt-switch and U-Turn to get it in safely. And once it's in, what exactly does it do? Against anything faster it has to rely on a priority attack, which will most likely not kill, before being KOd; against a more defensive Pokemon, it can setup, but it lacks the raw power to break past most defensive Pokemon. And against stall, quagsire walls it completely. This makes for a Pokemon that only really works 10% of the time, and more often than not, ends up as a wasted team slot, especially compared to the other Pokemon in B-. For instance, Mega Pidgeott does take up a mega slot, but fills the niche of being able to beat stall with work up+roost+refresh+Hurricane. Thus, Pidgeot is the definition of a B- Pokemon: A Pokemon that you can't just slap on a team and expect to work, but offers a specific niche which can be useful against certain styles of play (ex. stall in Pidgeott's case). Lucario doesn't have this niche: It under performs against both offense both defense, while requiring extensive team support to not be completely dead weight. This makes for a Pokemon, in my view, that deserves to not hold a spot in B-. Please for the love of god move this thing down, it isn't good.

That is the most cherry picked calc I've ever seen in my life... manaphy is literally the bulkiest offensive mon in the tier. Offense tends to run volturn anyways, so lucario needing that to be effective isn't a huge deal. The opportunity cost of using mega pidgeot over another mega+taunt tornt and be pretty much just as good vs stall is pretty large, so that's why m pidg is B- rank even though it is a "better mon" in theory. Lucario has pretty solid benefits with being a great late game cleaner that has really strong LO cc. Quag doesn't wall it at all since it's 2hko'd lol and it preforms quite well. Mega pidgeot is literally dead weight every game that your opponent has tran, ttar, or literally any flying resist that isn't weak to heat wave unless your opponent plays like shit, so I don't really see why you think it's so much better lol.

I hope this helps you reconsider your nomination...

 

[konstantellos]

You claim that it's beaten by garchomp, and while it is true that garchomp can act as a decent check to volcanion, there is absolutely now way that it can switch in on steam eruption- the same goes for Lando-T.

(and you can also mention Heatran in that category)
It is not their job to switch into Volcanion, the Volcanion switchins are Water and Dragon-types. It is a wallbreaker's job however to capitalize on bulky mons, especially the Stealth Rockers. Mons like Keldeo and kyurem-B for example can switch in as the aforementioned mons set up Rocks and proceed to hit something hard. Volcanion does make Grass-types worse, I'll give it that and it plays some fun mindgames vs other water spammers but it's not enough to make it A+. I can agree to A at most. Just my personal opinion.

 

[HailFall]

The opportunity cost of using mega pidgeot over another mega+taunt tornt and be pretty much just as good vs stall is pretty large, so that's why m pidg is B- rank even though it is a "better mon" in theory. Lucario has pretty solid benefits with being a great late game cleaner that has really strong LO cc. Quag doesn't wall it at all since it's 2hko'd lol and it preforms quite well. Mega pidgeot is literally dead weight every game that your opponent has tran, ttar, or literally any flying resist that isn't weak to heat wave unless your opponent plays like shit, so I don't really see why you think it's so much better lol.

Or maybe you don't play like shit either and rely on pidgeot to break tran and ttar? You have five other slots. Not to mention that dugtrio traps a shit load of pidge checks and eliminates them easily. Pidgeot can actually set up on or break all stallmons bar like zapdos. Luke doesn't come in on quag or sableye, and if the stall is running scarftar or something it's easily revenged with superpower. Luke is a lot easier for stall to deal with as long as the stall team plays smart (and if Luke catches a twave or smth coming in on chansey it's basically useless). Not stating an opinion on Luke changing rank just pointing this out.

 

[MANNAT]

Or maybe you don't play like shit either and rely on pidgeot to break tran and ttar? You have five other slots. Not to mention that dugtrio traps a shit load of pidge checks and eliminates them easily. Pidgeot can actually set up on or break all stallmons bar like zapdos. Luke doesn't come in on quag or sableye, and if the stall is running scarftar or something it's easily revenged with superpower. Luke is a lot easier for stall to deal with as long as the stall team plays smart (and if Luke catches a twave or smth coming in on chansey it's basically useless). Not stating an opinion on Luke changing rank just pointing this out.

I'm not saying that luke is better vs stall, but I'm just trying to point out that pidgeot can still be deadweight in quite a few matches, unlike what the post that I was replying to said. Duggie is a niche mon that literally drops to anything when its sash is broken, so relying it to trap shit and sack a mon first is really annoying. He kept bringing up quag as a mon that caused lucario to be bad (even though it's in nu or ru rof), so I just wanted to post a calc showing him that quag isn't the "catch all counter" to luc that he thought it was. Pidgeot is still a good mon, but it's not a subrank better than lucario.

 

[kek123]

Talon flame to A
I nominating talon flame down to A for multiple reason one of them being the decrease in popularity of mega sab which is a greate team mate for it and another reason being pretty much every team pack a counter to it because of the large popularity of lando-t and garchomp also the introduction of volcanion which shouldn't make to much difference but im pointing it out any wall since it destroys talon flame. Also the fact the it feels so hard to get of defogs in this current meta with lati twins being the most popular form of hazard removal and how popular bisharp and t-tar are putting pressure on the lati twin often it can be very hard to get of defogs which is such a hindrance to talon flame since if rocks are up it make it very hard for it to switch into things also lot of mons that it counters are on the decline for example mega venusuar and mega scizor also well as more heatran running some sort of rock type move for talon flame.

over all I feel the current meta is working against T-flame

 

[ethanlol]

I disagree with Talonflame since it is able to beat a lot of threatening mons. Burned Garchomp, Lando are setup fodder for the wisp set while it can can easily check dark types like Bisharp while it cripples Tyranitar. I said this in the past but Talonflame has so much utility and versatility that makes it really good. I will eloborate more on why Talonflame is still a top tier threat if needed. However the popularity of Diancie and Rotom are troubling for it. At school rn

 

[kek123]

I disagree with Talonflame since it is able to beat a lot of threatening mons. Burned Garchomp, Lando are setup fodder for the wisp set while it can can easily check dark types like Bisharp while it cripples Tyranitar. I said this in the past but Talonflame has so much utility and versatility that makes it really good. I will eloborate more on why Talonflame is still a top tier threat if needed. However the popularity of Diancie and Rotom are troubling for it. At school rn

bulky Zard x does all that better (other than taunt) and in the set viablitty raknings it rated as A it can also be an offensive treat at the same time as providing utility and is not quad weak to rocks and it defensive stats are pretty good to so it doesnt get beaten by things like Lum SD bisharp although it doesnt get taunt. Also lando and comp aren't set up fodder especially since most run taunt over bulk up any way , you say it cripples t-tar yes but only on the switch and t-tar generally inst a teams talon counter.

 

[Halcyon.]

bulky Zard x does all that better (other than taunt) and in the set viablitty raknings it rated as A it can also be an offensive treat at the same time as providing utility and is not quad weak to rocks and it defensive stats are pretty good to so it doesnt get beaten by things like Lum SD bisharp although it doesnt get taunt. Also lando and comp aren't set up fodder especially since most run taunt over bulk up any way , you say it cripples t-tar yes but only on the switch and t-tar generally inst a teams talon counter.

I don't think it's right to compare defensive zard x to stallbreaker talonflame. They just don't work the same way at all. Zard X lures in stuff like Landorus-T and Hippo and burns them, like talon does, but talon has the added bonus of providing sweeping potential to the team. You say that most talon run taunt wisp but that's entirely team dependent. If I want a talon that doesn't lose to heatran, I'll run taunt. But for the most part, I'll forego wisp in that scenario, not the setup move. I'll almost always run either SD or BU on my SDef talon, because having that offensive potential is what makes SDef talon so scary to face, imo.

But looking at talon as a whole, I still think it should stay in A+ rank. It threatens a lot of different team styles, and the drop in electric types outside of Rotom-W is helpful for it as well. I mean, talon is an S rank mon that is only kept in A+ because of the ubiquity of SR.

 

[Jaguar360]

Emboar to Unranked

I’ve probably said this before but this thing is just completely terrible, I honestly don’t know why it wasn’t unranked alongside Salamence and Haxorus tbh. I guess there are other questionable ranked mons that I could point out, such as like Mienshao, Krookodile, Meloetta, Shuckle and Froslass, but at least they have legitimate, albeit very minor niches. This really doesn’t. The only reason you’d ever use this over Infernape (which is faster, wallbreaks better thanks to its ability to go mixed, and has reliable recovery making it also better defensively), or even over one of the plethora of way better wallbreakers avalible in OU, is as a Dark resist on Trick Room. And even then, there are way better choices such as Crawdaunt, Azumarill, and TTar, which are much less reliant on TR, less vulnerable to common stuff like Talonflame, Garchomp, Latios, and more importantly, don’t kill themselves while attacking.
Emboar should probably never have been ranked in the first place, and removing it from the list is long overdue.

Even as probably the biggest pusher for Emboar's meta in OU, I honestly have to agree unranking it at this point. Simply put, while it can be an incredibly effective wallbreaker in the right hands, I simply cannot recommend it to newer players to OU when the recoil, poor bulk and poor speed make it so hard to use. Garchomp's rise in particular made it even more challenging to use and build with and it's just pressured by too many faster Pokemon.

I wouldn't say that it's without a niche, as its raw power over Nape or whatever allows it to 2HKO any OU Pokemon with Band or Life Orb (though in order to accomplish that on LO, Sucker Punch needs to be given up) and its STAB Reckless Flare Blitz is just a bitch to switch into for a ton of Pokemon, but that niche is just not really needed for a lot of teams anymore and they would rather use a mon with more utility in most cases. Emboar does have some utility as a check to Bish, Weavile, Scizor and a couple others, but recoil and a lack of high defense stats back it hard for it to check these threats more than once throughout a game. Its longevity is a major problem for it and what it offers in exchange for its lack of longevity just does not suffice anymore in this tier.

If anything were to keep this mon on the rankings, I'd say that it would be a combination of its Substitute/SubPunch set and its utility on Trick Room, but it's honestly not worth arguing for. It's a good pick for specific teams and I will continue to build with it a lot, but is not worthy of being a listed threat in all honesty. Emboar deserves to be unranked.

 

[Punchshroom]

I think Volcanion at A+ is pretty overrated. I think it should be A-. It is powerful and it makes waterspammers think twice before clicking the Water move but it is relatively slow and it can't capitalize on much. A wallbreaker that loses to Garchomp. Rotom, can't safely switch into Lando (or even get lured by a 263 speed set), gets bopped by Earth Power Heatran, switches into Slowbro to find itself unable to do much back (though it does pressure Starmie if it is not Thunderbolt ot Toxic). It is also weak to Rocks, has offensive checks like Latios, Keldeo and Torn (though burns are always annoying) plus many fast mons just kill it (especially with its Rocks weakness). It can switch into grass-types like Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn though which is important, I'm not saying it's trash by any means (A- is very far from trash) but I just don't fear it as much when teambuilding as other A and A+ Rank mons. How many of your old teams changed when Volcanion came around because of it? Not many I would guess except maybe some Mega Venusaur teams.

I'm surprised you talked about nearly all of the bulky mons Volcanion shouldn't switch into, and talked very little about how easily it takes advantage of most of the Steel-types in the tier, which is significant because practically every team carries a Steel-type, if not just some other mon that is bothered by Volcanion (like Azumarill and Choice-locked Keldeo).

However, arguably the bigger reasoning for Volcanion's high ranking is how easily it pairs with most other offensive Pokemon. Volcanion usually provides some quality that other mons appreciate, such as dealing with Steels (very high demand, Magnezone being prime example of this), spreads burns to soften up certain mons, occasional luring, or just generic holepunching. On the flipside, Volcanion's checks are rather limited and tend to overlap in terms of how they are dealt with, so Volcanion partners are not difficult to find either. It's Volcanion's individual effectiveness combined with the ease of fitting it in most cores that earns it its current ranking, at least for the moment.

 

[konstantellos]

I'm surprised you talked about nearly all of the bulky mons Volcanion shouldn't switch into, and talked very little about how easily it takes advantage of most of the Steel-types in the tier, which is significant because practically every team carries a Steel-type, if not just some other mon that is bothered by Volcanion (like Azumarill and Choice-locked Keldeo).

However, arguably the bigger reasoning for Volcanion's high ranking is how easily it pairs with most other offensive Pokemon. Volcanion usually provides some quality that other mons appreciate, such as dealing with Steels (very high demand, Magnezone being prime example of this), spreads burns to soften up certain mons, occasional luring, or just generic holepunching. On the flipside, Volcanion's checks are rather limited and tend to overlap in terms of how they are dealt with, so Volcanion partners are not difficult to find either. It's Volcanion's individual effectiveness combined with the ease of fitting it in most cores that earns it its current ranking, at least for the moment.

A bulky team with Skarmory will also have a Slowbro (or even worse a Chansey). An offensive team with Ferrothorn will have issues, that's true. I never said it was bad, just overrated. Maybe A- was an exaggeration but at most A. I don't think it's better than Kyurem-B overall.

 

[Punchshroom]

A bulky team with Skarmory will also have a Slowbro (or even worse a Chansey). An offensive team with Ferrothorn will have issues, that's true. I never said it was bad, just overrated. Maybe A- was an exaggeration but at most A. I don't think it's better than Kyurem-B overall.

Chansey may be an issue, but Slowbro really doesn't manage to deter the Steam Eruption spam, specially if it ends up burned (or poisoned by Sludge Bomb even).

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I'm just making assumptions here, but I presume the reason Volcanion is ranked above Kyurem-B is because it provides some reliable defensive benefit against a decent number of threats. Both Kyurem-B and Volcanion are very difficult to reliably switch into, but Kyurem-B can find it tricky to enter battle: its most consistent resistance is Electric since they don't pack coverage against it, but their tendency to Volt Switch away makes it hard to get the free switch (its next best resist is Water, but there's Keldeo and Scald burns to worry about). Volcanion on the other hand is fairly safe from most counterplay that bulky Steel-types have to offer, due to its great physical bulk and lack of weaknesses to their attacks; Volcanion doesn't even particularly need Speed to handle Steels either without losing too much overall effectiveness (of course, unless u get fully paralyzed consecutively), so Klefki still makes for tempting prey. Perhaps the only move Volcanion wants to watch out for is Earth Power Heatran, but that move is rarely seen on defensive Heatran, and offensive Heatran isn't particularly a threat that warrants Volcanion's holepunching for teammates to bypass.

 

[ProfessorMasterChief]

Charizard-Y from A -> A+

Charizard Y is so good right now because of metagame trends. It can singlehandedly dismantle sand teams, which are everywhere at the moment, and bulkier teams in general are on the rise at the moment, which he also matches up well against. While it might not be as good against offense, it's hardly dead weight, as it packs decent speed and enough bulk to survive most neutral attacks. Of course, not being able to hurt Volcanion with fire blast sucks, but other than that, this metagame has been amazing for Zard Y, and it feels like something nobody prepares for. The fact that his main answers in the Latis can be pursuit trapped means that getting his counters out of the way is really not that hard. Overall, like virtually every other wallbreaker, Zard Y has gotten much better with new trends, and is better than most of A (Mega Gard is the only one I think is possibly as good as it, but I digress). It should rise to A+.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

If anything, Mega Medicham should move before Zard Y does. Although, yes, you drive a decent point, I don't agree with it completely. I'm not entirely sure it "dismantles sand single-handedly". With Scarf TTar and Band Tar so god damned common, Zard has trouble with it until you know the set, which, in the right hands can cause your Zard to go down. Yes, it is pretty good right now, Sun boosted Blast has always been near impossible to switch into. But I'm not on the same page when you say it breaks sand on its own. I also can't agree with the "better than most A" (I'm going to assume) megas. Because Mega Gard is equally as hard to switch into if not more difficult to deal with. Like I said previously, if any A Mega should move up, I feel Mega Medicham should. But this is not my nomination post.

I also don't think it's on par with the rest of A+.

Speaking of which, we need to clean A+ out, there is some shit there that should not be there anymore.

 

[ProfessorMasterChief]

I actually thought Megacham was A+ lol. I'll admit, single-handedly was not the correct description, pain in the ass is more fitting. Ttar can check it if it's scarfed, but it doesn't enjoy taking a focus blast, if it hits. Zard does benefit from better physical defense over Gard, meaning it can survive some physical attacks and strike back, not that that's the most important thing for a wallbreaker. Now that I think about it though, I'm not really opposed to it staying A, but it is definitely one of the best in A (though probably not as good as Cham and arguably Gard)

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

Jellicent: C- to C

Here's an interesting nomination I wanna make. You see, Jellicent is a heavily slept on mon, probably due to some of its annoying weaknesses, low speed, and only good bulk. The thing is , however, it has some good qualities that are often overlooked in the OU metagame.

1. For starters, the combination of its typing, stats, and ability (Water Absorb), allows it to check a good number of prominent OU Pokemon, which includes but are not limited to: Volcanion, Keldeo, Clefable (Taunt), (Mega) Alakazam, Starmie, Manaphy (EBall sucks tho so watch out) and Tornadus-Therian (eats up Knock off and Jelli can win 1v1 with status/Recover barring hax), with a Specially Defensive spread, and Latios, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny (soft), Azumarill (soft), and Mega Medicham (soft) with a Physically Defensive spread. While it is true that it can't check everything it wants to at once, Jellicent isn't exactly inflexible with Ev spreads, and you could easily tailor it to your team's needs. I find Specially Defensive to be more consistent in performance, but Physically Defensive is still a viable spread to use.
   
2. Its surprisingly good movepool gives it enough tools to act in a few roles. The reliable recovery of Recover is always appreciated on a defensive mon. Taunt allows Jellicent to annoy the shit out of Stall (Chansey, Quagsire, Skarm + friends hate this thing btw, Mega Sableye sucks but when does it not?). Jellicent's speed, while not exactly fast, is just enough to outspeed things like Chansey and beat it 1v1. Status + Hex (I usually prefer Will-O-Wisp) wears down opposing teams quickly and effectively. Of course, Jellicent has access to the almighty Scald, so that's also a good option to use, but I usually prefer to use Hex. You could even use stuff like Ice Beam/Icy Wind to defeat Gliscor, Magic Coat to bounce back stuff like Taunt, and even Psych Up to consistently beat CM Clefable, if you have room for these moves. All of this combines to make Jellicent a Stallbreaker, defensive pivot, and special/mixed wall to an extent.

Unfortunately, however, Jellicent does some annoying flaws that limit its effectiveness. Having nasty weaknesses to Dark, Electric, and Grass definitely put a damper on Jellicent's otherwise good bulk. Dark types especially are troublesome due to Jellicent's weakness to Pursuit, although those Pokemon have to be wary of Burns from Willo/Scald, and Colbur Berry is an option to use. Its physical bulk is disappointingly low, so many physical attackers are threats to Jelli. It's not exactly not hard to wear down either, so watch out for that. The low speed is also a bummer, which allows a large chunk of the metagame to move first, never a good thing to have happen.

Overall, Jellicent has some nice qualities that warrant a raise to C, above the garbage of C- like Forretress and Mega Absol.

Wall of Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 180+ SpD Jellicent: 160-190 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 180+ SpD Jellicent: 153-183 (38.1 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 44 Def Jellicent: 179-212 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 180+ SpD Jellicent: 159-187 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 180+ SpD Jellicent: 174-205 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Will update later if I have time

please be gentle

 

[Finchinator]

Charizard-Y from A -> A+

Charizard Y is so good right now because of metagame trends. It can singlehandedly dismantle sand teams, which are everywhere at the moment, and bulkier teams in general are on the rise at the moment, which he also matches up well against. While it might not be as good against offense, it's hardly dead weight, as it packs decent speed and enough bulk to survive most neutral attacks. Of course, not being able to hurt Volcanion with fire blast sucks, but other than that, this metagame has been amazing for Zard Y, and it feels like something nobody prepares for. The fact that his main answers in the Latis can be pursuit trapped means that getting his counters out of the way is really not that hard. Overall, like virtually every other wallbreaker, Zard Y has gotten much better with new trends, and is better than most of A (Mega Gard is the only one I think is possibly as good as it, but I digress). It should rise to A+.

It's funny that you say this because back a few metagame cycles ago I had a comparable mindset myself in regards to Zard-Y being potent and improving in the metagame - think back during last summer (aka WCOP 2015 meta) when slower clef balance teams ran the tier, more or less. I feel like this doesn't apply much now though and it isn't a very good time for it to raise to A+ (still a stronger A for sure).

Two main counterpoints are the metagame speeding/powering up and the fact that it needs substantial support.

As for the latter, you need to keep in mind that there are two necessities for every Zard-Y team: Pursuit and reliable hazard removal. There are a handful of viable pursuit users - Tyranitar, Weavile, AV Metagross, and sorta Bisharp. There is a bit more of a variety when it comes to hazard removable - Latios, Latias, Starmie, Excadrill, and then some lesser common removers like Mew (rarely runs Defog), Skarm (rarely runs Defog), Empoleon, and Mandibuzz. There are really only three "types" of Zard-Y teams that I ever see as a byproduct of this limitative nature of the Zard-Y archetype - 1. the type of teams that use Zard+Tar+Drill sorta ZardY sand bulky-o (most common), 2. more balanced builds that usually utilize things like Hippo or Gastro and either Scarf Tar or Scarf Bisharp as the pursuit user and Zard-Y as an offensive backbone/breaker (Tesung's team vs Improbable for week five of SPL and my team vs Stath for game one of round two of OST are prime examples of this, I feel) (not all too common), and 3. other more generally offensive builds that slap on Zard-Y, Latios/Starmie, and a pursuit Pokemon (not all too common). I feel like the fact that Zard-Y sets the tempo for teams and doesn't allow for much versatility and change when it comes to building, bar some rare exceptions, makes upward or downward mobility of Zard-Y in terms of viability a bit hard unless there's a significant pace change in the metagame as you know what you're expecting and getting and it had already been gauged at a certain level of viability. Moreover, needing multiple forms of support & defining a stabilized archetype makes the case for A+ weaker.

Now going to the former point, the current trends and how it impacts Zard-Y. Volcanion popping up in the tier made it so that a lot of forms of fat, bar Mega Lati teams, are harder to play with and not as appealing while more fast paced, pressure intensive teams are a bit better. Mega Lati teams tend to do well against Zard-Y teams that lack CB Tar and offensive teams tend to give more pressure on Zard-Y coming in safely. Zard-Y teams ideally match-up with slower teams that lack Mega Lati and those are currently a bit less common than before (albeit not by much, but they certainly aren't bolstered in any way). Overall, I just think that nothing really has changed to push Zard-Y up and it probably fell a bit even, but not enough to drop it out of A or even close to dropping.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Mega Lopunny A+ ---> A
Not as threatening as it once was. It's a lot harder to use this mon with more bulkier builds running amok (esp. with the sudden spike in the popularity of Amoonguss and Tangrowth). Strong wallbreaking fighting types are generally preferred atm, as shown with Mega Heracross getting some recognition.

Azumarill: I'll make this short and sweet. Volcanion being in the tier doesn't kill Azumarill's viability. It still has good power, defensive typing and resistances to offer just like it always has. You guys give Volcanion too much credit imo. it's presence in the tier doesn't single-handedly affect the viability of 10+ pokemon, unless it's ridiculously over-centralizing like Primal Groudon in Ubers or weather teams in BW.

Talonflame is still a fantastic pokemon. If anything, the meta has shifted in favor of it since Electric types are (finally) on the decline.

Btw, Jirachi is being severely overrated right now. yes, it's arguably one of the best fairy and lati check in the tier. Yes, its choice scarf set is great. Realize though, the scarf set suffers from average offenses and vulnerability to chip damage from Rocky Helmet Landorus and Garchomp. Rotom-W, Sand and Volcanion becoming more relevant also hurts it.

Volcanion is fine in A+ Fits in a plethora of neat cores. Works very nicely with sand teams and an absolute nightmare to switch into.

Dugtrio to C+ and Jellicent to C sounds fine. Their niches have become a lot more relevant with Sand, Heatran, Diancie, etc. and Volcanion/Keldeo/etc.

Can't say much on Emboar. But it seems to be mostly outclassed by Infernape and Victini.

tl;dr
Mega Lopunny A+ ---> A
Agree with Dugtrio to C+, Jellicent to C.
Disagree with Volcanion, Azumarill, and Talonflame dropping. and Jirachi rising.
Idk about Emboar.

 

[Kutscher]

i would like to revive an old nomination Mega Pinsir to A, everybody know what pinsir can do: wallbreak really easy, OKOing or 2KOing almost every mon in the tier(bar some things like smarmory), but the main question is "what have changed to make it better?" well manectric and raikou loose some viability, and both are really dangerous to him, volcanion is the new tier's favorite and pinsir just check it(KO after rocks or at +2), keldeo and tornadus-t are rising in viability, at +2 pinsir can KO both with quick attack, bulky grasses like Amoongus and Tangrowth are rising in viability too, also the metagame is becoming more slow and bulk, the kind of metagame that pinsir can easily destroy, so things that are also rising like chansey doesn't bother pinsir, also tank chomp and hippodown are becoming less popular and pisnir apreciates bulky lando-t being the "go to"ground type, cause of hyper cutter doesn't giving a shit to intimitade(chomp would hurt pinsir, and hippo survive a +2 return)fighiting types like medicham and heracross are rising too, another good point to rise pinsir. the only things that i can see as arguments to not rising pinsir is because both mega latias and rotom-w rise recently, but pinsir can take both if you have a chance of weaking them somehow(i actually use moldbreaker eq pinsir to lure rotom-w, nobody realize that i don't "forgot to mega evolve in turn 1"), but i see to much good points to mega pisnir rise to A and just a few that hold it back. ps: sorry for my english, it's not my native language

edit: anyone have thoughts about my nomination of dropping empoleon?

double edit: just a list of the reasons i said above:
-Rise in Grasses(mega venu, amoonguss, tangrowth, breloom, chesgnaut);
-Rise in keldeo and torn-t;
-Drop of tankchomp and Hippo;
-Rise of bulky teams and bulky mons like chansey;
-Drop of eletrics(Manectric and Raikou);
-Rise of Fighting types(Medicham, Heracross, Gallade(?));
-Addition of Volcanion wich is checked by pisnir.

 

[Flarowak]

i would like to revive an old nomination Mega Pinsir to A, everybody know what pinsir can do: wallbreak really easy, OKOing or 2KOing almost every mon in the tier(bar some things like smarmory), but the main question is "what have changed to make it better?" well manectric and raikou loose some viability, and both are really dangerous to him, volcanion is the new tier's favorite and pinsir just check it(KO after rocks or at +2), keldeo and tornadus-t are rising in viability, at +2 pinsir can KO both with quick attack, bulky grasses like Amoongus and Tangrowth are rising in viability too, also the metagame is becoming more slow and bulk, the kind of metagame that pinsir can easily destroy, so things that are also rising like chansey doesn't bother pinsir, also tank chomp and hippodown are becoming less popular and pisnir apreciates bulky lando-t being the "go to"ground type, cause of hyper cutter doesn't giving a shit to intimitade(chomp would hurt pinsir, and hippo survive a +2 return)fighiting types like medicham and heracross are rising too, another good point to rise pinsir. the only things that i can see as arguments to not rising pinsir is because both mega latias and rotom-w rise recently, but pinsir can take both if you have a chance of weaking them somehow(i actually use moldbreaker eq pinsir to lure rotom-w, nobody realize that i don't "forgot to mega evolve in turn 1"), but i see to much good points to mega pisnir rise to A and just a few that hold it back. ps: sorry for my english, it's not my native language

edit: anyone have thoughts about my nomination of dropping empoleon?

I actually agree with Pinsir, that thing is really good right now. I've been using it a LOT as of late and it just rips through most walls really easily. With hazard support it doesn't have that hard of a time sweeping, especially once set up. +2 Pinsir is still pretty easy to make happen even with a lot of it's checks still being around, and when it is set up it has an even easier time getting things done. Even a lot of its checks and counters can't really switch into a return, especially if rocks are set up. Just some quick calcs:

-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 123-146 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 156-184 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


The Only reliable check or switch in I've seen is defensive Zapdos, and tbh the defensive sets aren't theat great right now...Zapdos in general really. It also, as you mentioned earlier, handles a lot of mons that are rising in viability again such as medicham and those bulky grasses like Venusaur, Amoongus or Tangrowth. I've noticed Chesnaught and Breloom gaining momentum again too, who never ever want to be anywhere near pinsir.

 

[MANNAT]

Seconding the nominations for Jellicent, this thing is surprisingly good on hazard stacking teams and can really come through when you need it to quite well. It has a really solid defensive typing, especially coupled with water absorb, that allows it to wall a ton of the metagame's premier threats like keldeo, volc, tornt, tran, mega bro, normal bro, etc. all with a specially defensive set and can spread burns throughout the opposing team with ease in between having access to both scald and will-o-wisp. It offers a spinblocker for hazard stacking teams, status soreader, semi-stallbreaker, solid special tank, and an excellent water type check (bar azumarill) A lot of its other roles have been mentioned among other positives that make it a solid mon.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-367007611 - May be low ladder, but is vs a pretty solid team and shows how the dual status set can be a menace and just beat teams with how fat it is
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-367014997 - Jelli helps keep hazards up and puts in a ton of work again