Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Wildcat Formation]

I agree with Tyranitar moving up to A+. Scarf T-tar is so good at Pursuit trapping that it can be used on offense, balance, and stall teams. That alone makes it at least A rank imo, but the rising Chople and Choice Band sets are why it is deserving of A+. Support T-tar is a reliable Stealth Rock setter that can beat one of the biggest threats to Sand teams in M-Alakazam thanks to Chople Berry. Band T-tar can break bulky teams with its powerful STABs when it switches into electrics and other BoltBeam Pokemon like M-Latias or BoltBeam Clefable. Sand is really strong right now so a rise for Tyranitar makes sense.

I'm also curious to if Thundurus should remain A+. The high usage of sand teams has made Electric types worse. Thundurus has always been considered the premier Electric Pokemon thanks to its wide coverage along with Prankster Thunder Wave. However, I think Thundurus's best set in the current meta is Nasty Plot + 3 attacks, a set that does not have Prankster T-Wave. The extra coverage move whether it is Focus Blast or Grass Knot allows Thundurus to put in work against bulkier teams in a way Nasty Plot + Thunderbolt + HP Ice + T-Wave cannot. I don't think LO 3 attacks + T-wave is that good currently since it gets worn down too quickly and is easier to check. Is the Nasty Plot set good enough to keep Thundurus in A+? I'm not sure. Speaking of Electric-types...

Again, Electric-types have gotten worse with the prevalence of sand. When Thundurus's best set currently is Nasty Plot, there is even less reason to use Thundurus-T. Its speed tier is rather unfortunate especially since offensive Garchomp is making a return. I think every Pokemon that is B- bar Empoleon is easily better than Thun-T, even some C+ Pokemon like Nidoking. Drop to C+.

I wonder how you guys feel about this. I might be missing something, but I don't see how Ferrothorn is better than Skarmory by one subrank. I'm comparing these two because they are both bulky Steel-types that learn Spikes. I think Ferrothorn's lack of reliable recovery cannot be ignored. Ferro highly appreciates Leftovers, but there are times where it needs to hold a Chople Berry or Shed Shell in order to do its job effectively. If Ferro is your sole Fairy check, a Shed Shell is often the better choice. If you are very weak to M-Gard or M-Zam, Chople is a good option. The lack of Leftovers can force Ferrothorn into situations where it would like to Leech Seed to stay healthy over setting up Spikes. This makes Ferrothorn easier to wear down compared to Skarmory.

Also I think Skarmory has gotten better over time. Ferro moved to A+ rank last August. That was back when Manaphy and M-Altaria were considered the top threats of OU. Neither of them are as dominant currently. Skarmory, however, is capable of taking on three of the biggest threats in OU: Clefable, Excadrill, and M-Diancie. Sacrificing Leftovers for Shed Shell isn't a big issue for Skarm because of Roost. I'm not sure if Ferro should drop or if Skarm should rise, but I do think they should be the same rank.

 

[Terrakion.]

I've been thinking about this nomination for the last week or so and finally decided to post on it.
Lucario to B / B+ (I'm more for B+ but B is still good)

Lucario has a great movepool surrounded by all around good offensive stats. Its Steel / Fighting STABs is what makes it such a great offensive Pokemon due to how much it threatens. Lucario can single-handedly destroy offensive teams and be able to put huge dents into defensive oriented teams as well. Along with its stats, strong priority moves is such a necessity at the moment which Lucario can bring in either boosted Bullet Punches or Extreme Speed. Although Lucario suffers from a severe case of 4MSS, it also plays in it favors as it allows the player to make certain plays at a certain point in the game which can be game changing. Of course everything isn't great about this Pokemon as 4MSS can be really hurtful at times as well, but with the right support as all Pokemon needs, Lucario is a major threat.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch
- Iron Tail / Ice Punch / Crunch / Bullet Punch

Calculations against Offensive Pokemon:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa Unbound(ban me pls): 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-285 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 452-534 (141.6 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 233-274 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm pretty sure you get the point, Lucario can clean up really well against offensive teams.

Calculations against Defensive Pokemon:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 329-387 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 347-409 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 347-409 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 341-403 (112.5 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (fucking mega slowbro)

Edit: Didnt realize I calculated Iron Tail instead of Close Combat on Garchomp.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 395-465 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Darkreaper]

Move this thing to B+ imo
As said before crawdaunt has definitely gotten better. In the suspect ladder without Hoopa-Unbound, Stall is very common. This beats all common variations of stall, especially that "Weavile Stall" team running around right now. The most common stall mega, sableye, gets demolished by any attack and cannot switch in. Ammonguss is destroyed by a +2 Knock off, same with basically everything else even defensive Skarmory, getting ohko'd by a +2 Crab Hammer for sure after rocks. There are very few mons that can check it on stall teams, MVenu, Malt, and Chesnaught being the only I can think of right now.

Calcs

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 304-359 (91 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Amoonguss: 585-689 (135.4 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 403-476 (132.5 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seriously, Crawdaunt can just setup to +2 and beat most common stall teams rn. It can even break them without setting up. I think it's safe to say if Hoopa is banned, this is definitely deserving to go up to B+ with the increase of stall. Even without, it is still able to break stall and balance so well right now with an amazing offensive typing. Yes it is outsped by a lot on offense, but if it gets in, it basically gets to deal out a huge hit, as even resisted crabhammer against Keldeo the most common resist on offense does around 50%.
B --> B+

 

[Kutscher]

i've been using crawdaunt for respectable time, and it's really good beating stall teams alone(the only things that can win against you in stall are celebi, chesgnaut def tangrowth and maybee another mon that i am forgeting), and every team that lacks a water resist that outspeed it is deafeted too. but a lot of times while i was using it i just asked my self "why i am not using BD azu" like he kill the same things and some others like chesgnaut, also it has a really easier time setting up because of most people will expect CB and predict switch, or you can use your type and bulk to set up against a lot of mons, while crawudaunt have only one set and nobody will allow you to set up. for a while i am against crawdaunt rise, but i would like to see more arguments. sry for my english, not my native language

 

[MANNAT]

I don't agree with the Raikou drop right now after using it a ton while laddering. The only "bad" matchup for Raikou is sand balance/offense, and that is a problem for many A+ mons like talon, zardx, etc, so I don't think that it is a solid enough reason for raikou to drop. It can put in a ton of work vs fatter builds with subcm and can set up on stall mainstays like skarm, amoong, alomomola, pmuch any special attacker on stall, which is great. It can use cm volt switch to pressure offensive builds with +1 hp ice obliterating every relevant ground on offense bar like yache chomp and can volt out immediately after blowing this shit back and has a lot of utility vs offense, checking key threats like manaphy, keld, tornt, thund, etc. Raikou may not be the greatest mon in the metagame, but it certainly doesn't deserve to drop down to B+ next to shit like diggersby and mamoswine lol.

 

[Alfalfa]

I've been thinking about this nomination for the last week or so and finally decided to post on it.
Lucario to B / B+ (I'm more for B+ but B is still good)

Lucario has a great movepool surrounded by all around good offensive stats. Its Steel / Fighting STABs is what makes it such a great offensive Pokemon due to how much it threatens. Lucario can single-handedly destroy offensive teams and be able to put huge dents into defensive oriented teams as well. Along with its stats, strong priority moves is such a necessity at the moment which Lucario can bring in either boosted Bullet Punches or Extreme Speed. Although Lucario suffers from a severe case of 4MSS, it also plays in it favors as it allows the player to make certain plays at a certain point in the game which can be game changing. Of course everything isn't great about this Pokemon as 4MSS can be really hurtful at times as well, but with the right support as all Pokemon needs, Lucario is a major threat.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed / Bullet Punch
- Iron Tail / Ice Punch / Crunch / Bullet Punch

Calculations against Offensive Pokemon:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hoopa Unbound(ban me pls): 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 291-343 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 242-285 (75.8 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 452-534 (141.6 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 312-368 (111 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 233-274 (85.9 - 101.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I'm pretty sure you get the point, Lucario can clean up really well against offensive teams.

Calculations against Defensive Pokemon:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 329-387 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 242-286 (63.3 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 347-409 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Iron Tail vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 347-409 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 294-346 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 341-403 (112.5 - 133%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (fucking mega slowbro)

Edit: Didnt realize I calculated Iron Tail instead of Close Combat on Garchomp.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 395-465 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

As much as I think that Lucario is an underrated threat, it is already in B- for the reasons you have stated. Throwing around calcs is not going to change anybody's opinion because we all know how hard Lucario can hit at +2. What you do not state is how difficult it is for Lucario to even find an opportunity to use Swords Dance, and how team dependent Lucario is to pull its weight consistently.

 

[Ramses]

I honestly think we should wait for the suspect to end before suggesting to move or drop specific Pokemon who's viability is captive to suspect ladder. It's no secret that the ladder is incredibly stall based right now with dozens of users looking to get easy reqs, and stall is the way to go, as seen in countless other suspects. I'm not disagreeing that Crawdaunt is on par with some things in B+, but the fact you were going off how it's performing on the ladder, especially during a suspect isn't an accurate representation of it's true viability.

Regarding the piece about Thundurus, I certainly believe it reigns true that it's among the weaker A+ threats, but better than nearly everything else in the A ranking making a definite placement difficult to deduce. However what Thundurus has that the others don't is a godly movepool Raikou and Mega Manectric could kill for, which is the obvious advantage it has. Prankster Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot also give it that "edge" it has over other Electric-types making it all the more threatening than they could ever be, which is why it's brethren have been suffering while it's been sitting high and pretty. Regarding Thundurus-T however it can just drop since Thundurus-I is better is nearly all aspects and it doesn't offer much of anything to a team unlike Thundurus-I

There isn't anything wrong with a Mega Charizard X drop since the evidence is there, but it fits in the same exact boat as Thundurus. It's better than almost everything in A, quite possibly the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, and it's counterplay methods are extremely limited which usually only add up to a few hard checks bar Mega Slowbro.

I honestly believe that Skarmory is on par with Ferrothorn now. Skarmory has so many perks that Ferrothorn would die for it's not even funny despite the imbalance of Special Bulk it has compared to Ferrothorn. Mega Diancie is becoming more common, Clefable is still omnipresent, Electric-types are on a decline (but it's not like Ferro walls then aside Raikou) and it just brings quite a bit more to a team seeking a Steel-type than Ferrothorn. The utility options it has that Ferrothorn doesn't like Taunt, Defog, and Roar just does so well for so many teams that need a Rocker / Spiker with considerable defensive utility. I'm not too sure if Ferrothorn should move down or Skarmory go up, but I'd like to hear other opinions on this matter.

e: now did I say skarmory was better than ferrothorn?

I'm wondering what everyone thinks about Talonflame to A. It's just not that good anymore. With Sand as omnipresent as ever, Tyranitar getting better, Rotom-W everywhere, Defensive Landorus-T, Mega Diancie, etc. it's just having a hard time right now cementing itself as an A+ threat. It's got quite a few sets that work well, but they aren't as effective anymore with other mons that bring more to the place. It's really easy to see it on par with things like Mega Garde, Mega Charizard Y, and Gengar instead of being as good as the aforementioned threats to it's viability.

 

[MANNAT]

I honestly think we should wait for the suspect to end before suggesting to move or drop specific Pokemon who's viability is captive to suspect ladder. It's no secret that the ladder is incredibly stall based right now with dozens of users looking to get easy reqs, and stall is the way to go, as seen in countless other suspects. I'm not disagreeing that Crawdaunt is on par with some things in B+, but the fact you were going off how it's performing on the ladder, especially during a suspect isn't an accurate representation of it's true viability.

Regarding the piece about Thundurus, I certainly believe it reigns true that it's among the weaker A+ threats, but better than nearly everything else in the A ranking making a definite placement difficult to deduce. However what Thundurus has that the others don't is a godly movepool Raikou and Mega Manectric could kill for, which is the obvious advantage it has. Prankster Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot also give it that "edge" it has over other Electric-types making it all the more threatening than they could ever be, which is why it's brethren have been suffering while it's been sitting high and pretty. Regarding Thundurus-T however it can just drop since Thundurus-I is better is nearly all aspects and it doesn't offer much of anything to a team unlike Thundurus-I

There isn't anything wrong with a Mega Charizard X drop since the evidence is there, but it fits in the same exact boat as Thundurus. It's better than almost everything in A, quite possibly the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, and it's counterplay methods are extremely limited which usually only add up to a few hard checks bar Mega Slowbro.

I honestly believe that Skarmory is on par with Ferrothorn now. Skarmory has so many perks that Ferrothorn would die for it's not even funny despite the imbalance of Special Bulk it has compared to Ferrothorn. Mega Diancie is becoming more common, Clefable is still omnipresent, Electric-types are on a decline (but it's not like Ferro walls then aside Raikou) and it just brings quite a bit more to a team seeking a Steel-type than Ferrothorn. The utility options it has that Ferrothorn doesn't like Taunt, Defog, and Roar just does so well for so many teams that need a Rocker / Spiker with considerable defensive utility. I'm not too sure if Ferrothorn should move down or Skarmory go up, but I'd like to hear other opinions on this matter.

I'm wondering what everyone thinks about Talonflame to A. It's just not that good anymore. With Sand as omnipresent as ever, Tyranitar getting better, Rotom-W everywhere, Defensive Landorus-T, Mega Diancie, etc. it's just having a hard time right now cementing itself as an A+ threat. It's got quite a few sets that work well, but they aren't as effective anymore with other mons that bring more to the place. It's really easy to see it on par with things like Mega Garde, Mega Charizard Y, and Gengar instead of being as good as the aforementioned threats to it's viability.

I agree with your first few points, but there's a few things I wanna point out here

skarm and ferro being of equal viability is kinda shaky since ferro checks non-hp fire diancie a lot better than skarm and skarm cant even switch into diancie variants. Clefable runs twave way more than flamethrower, and ferro's gyro does still pressure clef a ton and ferro can wear down unaware variants found on fatter builds a lot easier. Ferro offers shit like twave support and has better offensive presence than skarm, esp if it runs dual stabs, so you can't quite say skarm offers more utility than ferro. Skarm might be good enough to move up, but I'm not so sure if it's better than ferro. Talonflame is still as amazing as it has always been, sand getting better is actually not as big a problem in theory because well-played birdspam builds can actually use talonflame as a method of checking driller by pressuring it when sand isn't up and rkilling it when it's under like 45% or smthn like that with offensive sets. TTar getting better is kinda an issue I guess, but a burnt ttar does jack shit to talon with pursuit. Rotom-W being everywhere is a valid point, but rotom-w lacks reliable recovery and gets worn down really quickly. lando-t has always been top 2-3 in usage, so I don't understand that point lol. mdiancie can be lured with steel wing on some offensive sets, and mdiancie is quite frail post-mega so it only needs to take like one prior brave bird to be in KO range of +2 bb. Talonflame is as good as ever, so it definitely doesn't deserve to drop, especially since so many of its checks lack reliable recovery and talon can go to town on builds with these mons if they aren't careful.

 

[ethanlol]

I'm wondering what everyone thinks about Talonflame to A. It's just not that good anymore. With Sand as omnipresent as ever, Tyranitar getting better, Rotom-W everywhere, Defensive Landorus-T, Mega Diancie, etc. it's just having a hard time right now cementing itself as an A+ threat. It's got quite a few sets that work well, but they aren't as effective anymore with other mons that bring more to the place. It's really easy to see it on par with things like Mega Garde, Mega Charizard Y, and Gengar instead of being as good as the aforementioned threats to it's viability.

I think Talonflame is still a good A+ threat since the set wisp, brave bird, roost, sd/bulk up is really good since it is able to cripple switch-ins like Landorus or Tyranitar. But I think it is a still a threat, so much so that I make sure my team has a flying resist just because talonflame is so threatening. Wisp/bulk up is a really good win con. Gale wings is a really good ability since it allows Brave Bird/Acrobatics to be the strongest BP Priority move. Although rotomw is amazing rightI now burning it can help wear it down. Talonflame provides a really good utility move pool in reliable recovery, being able to boost it's stats, ability to cripple, taunt, and priority to flying moves makes it pretty good. I agree with the above post about talonflame's current standing in the metagame. Stay A+

 

[bludz]

Yeah I think Talon is still a savage. Diancie is nothing more than an offensive check and it can't switch in repeatedly. Talon prefers defensive Lando to Chomp, and regardless Lando and Ttar are crippled by wisp sets. Rotom is good I'll give you that.

The whole argument sort of ignored other things in Talons favor though. Manectric is less effective and bulky grasses are very common now. Having 2 extremely threatening sets in SD and bulky Wisp means that Talon can sort of just flow with the meta since it's rare for times to be really hard on both sets. This is also ignoring absurdity like Bulk Up or SD Wisp which can straight up CT some teams

 

[squirtletheturtle]

PS Charizard X is a mon where the meta is extremely unfavorable toward it right now. That said it can still be a massive problem so I'm not advocating a drop but it's something to keep in mind

Mega Charizard X
I promised myself i would never post here again, but then i saw this so screw it. And I absolutely love how my nomination was ridiculed when I brought this up 2-ish months ago. Of course people will most likely disagree with me again, but it's an A mon.

Yeah, drop it for obvious reasons. Mainly the unfavorable meta. In a non-sand infested/unprepared meta, it's A+ or S. In a sand invested meta, it's A. And by the way, I don't actually see it as a massive problem as I did back during a few months ago. It's checks in Hippowdon, Heatran, Landorus-T, Diancie, and Tyranitar are all relatively easy to slap onto every team. Not very scary as it once was. Once everyone stops fanboying Mega Charizard X, you'll see it has way more problems than the entirety of A+

Electric Types
Thundurus, Raikou and Mega Manectric should drop from their respective ranks. This should be a given imo. Once again, attributed to sand. I'm not gonna go in depth because enough has already been said.

Weavile
Drop Weavile contingent on the fact that Hoopa-U gets banned. A niche in pursuit trapping Hoopa is the only thing keeping it in A+ atm.

Edit: Kibblecat Fine, let me rephrase. Weavile should drop because dark spam has been falling slightly out of favor, especially with Keldeo being in S and the recent usage of Chople Tyranitar and Rocky Helmet Resttalk Keldeo (which is a thing now i guess). People who wanted it in A+ claimed that it had another niche (in Pursuiting Hoopa-U). With that decent niche + its other great qualities = it's A+. Without that niche + its great qualities = it's A. The Meta has evidently shifted against it and people are far more prepared for it now than before.

Magneton
This being C is completely undeserved. Bump it up a bit. The extra speed that allows it to crush Talonflame, Tornadus, Weavile, and Starmie is pretty useful while still trapping steels is something over Magnezone. The only real cost is the fact that it can't take a hit. It's niche is bigger than the really bad stuff in C.

Absol
Unrank Mega Absol. There is no reason why this thing should exist in OU when you have the many fast dark types that OU has. Not to mention Mega Diancie.

Peace out.

 

[Kibblecat]

Weavile
Drop Weavile contingent on the fact that Hoopa-U gets banned. A niche in pursuit trapping Hoopa is the only thing keeping it in A+ atm.

While I don't necessarily disagree that it could be in A and not A+, this is a massive over generalisation. Weavile was part of the general popularity of dark spam before Hoopa became too centralising and offensively checks a huge amount of other A and A+ threats like ground types and almost any flying type not named Talonflame (this thing can even break Skarm with a flinch in certain situations) as well grass types not named Mega-Venusaur and almost any Psychic, Ghost, or Dragon type slower than it with the possible exception of a totally healthy Kyurem-B if Weavile lacks Low Kick. It also has enough options in its last slot to be fairly versatile in what it adds for a team whether it picks Pursuit, Low Kick or even Fake out or SD, although admittedly it's never been amazing with the latter two in any ORAS meta. Even Poison Jab is an option to hurt certain safer Weavile switch ins. Tbh singling out an A+ mon and saying that only one niche put it there, doesn't really do justice to how broadly viable a mon has to be to get into A+ in the first place especially when talking about a mon with such a splashable and useful STAB combination and stat distribution as Weavile.

Like I say I dont disagree with it being in A instead of A+ but I think a better case needs to be made for it, its in a situation of being one of the less notable members of A+ but being notably more splashable and in the long run providing more than a lot in the tier below it like a lot of the megas there (Gyara, namely, Garde too and to an extent M-Venusaur for certain teams) and stuff like Gengar, Jirachi, Serperior.

Speaking of M-Gyara, that could probably drop to A-. I know I was literally just talking about the value of dark type STAB but really M-Gyara has basically never been able to do all the things it wants to to stick in A and while I can think of plenty of generalised good reasons to use it I never find myself actually thinking 'yeah thats what I need on my team' when there are better bulky offensive mons and better dragon dancers above and below it that don't pull out the mega slot. Its one of those things thats been where it has for ages when really it's just nowhere near as viable in loose terms as anything in the same rank. Same for M-Aerodactyl, could probably drop to B+, there's plenty of good reasons to use it in theory but in practice it's just so much less viable than anything in the same rank as it. In both cases, I think just listing off little perks they have of things that they can break that alternatives can't, like M-Gyara beating Ferro with Crunch after set up, or both getting Taunt, don't really present a strong enough argument to keep them where they are when they just don't see usage in the current meta so much and haven't done so for a while.

 

[AM]

I'm not entirely sure why people identify stuff like Bisharp, Weavile, and Tyranitar as "Dark Spam". It's a pretty specific offensive playstyle that utilizes a core of offensive dark types specific to overloading certain fighting types and checks like Keldeo for something like Bisharp to secure a win. It's not representative of each Dark type as a whole and it's such a silly phrase to be throwing around. For what it's worth I don't really have an opinion on Weaviles placement it seems like a hit or miss with some people depending on who you ask. Also VR represents the non-suspect meta so some points don't even make sense.

The discussions kind of all over the place with random noms some not even taking into account the non-suspect meta so idk what to say :I . I just know there's a lot I haven't been agreeing with this past page like Char-X dropping, entertaining Magneton should rise, or TFlame dropping in A+ and a lot more.

 

[Flexxen]

Since noms seem to be free at this point, I'm gonna nom Cofagrigus to rise from C to C+ or B-.

I've been using the offensive TR + NP set the last couple of days on the ladder and it has been putting in nothing but the finest of work. I know it's the suspect ladder and that Hoopa-U's abscence definetely helps but this set can still be really scary to go up against for many offensive and balanced teams.

Shadow Ball as the only attacking move might seem bad on paper but there are actually quite a few teams that don't even pack a ghost resist and most of the common ghost resists in OU (Lopunny, T-Tar, Weavile, Bisharp) hate taking a burn. Thanks to Will-O-Wisp and the switches it usually forces, as well as its still pretty solid bulk (on the physical side mainly), Cofag actually hasn't that hard of a time to start setting up and once it does it can put some serious dents in opposing teams or just outright sweep them once they're weakened enough. An other thing helping there is Mummy, which is a really useful ability, mons like Azu, Lopunny or Medicham loosing their ability basically turns them into setup fodder. I'm not saying taking M-Medi's Zen Headbutts or Azu's banded Play Roughs is the way to go but if you get Cofag in on something like a -1 Ice Punch or an Aqua Jet directed at your Lando, your opponent will have a problem.

Not gonna ramble too much about it though, I'll just let these replays do the rest of the talking, imo that's just not the performance you'd expect from a C rank mon, especially during the first two replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-356805926
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-354886977
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-356415291

In case some random suspect ladder matches aren't convincing enough, jamvad also used this set during spl against pdc, where Cofag did pretty well before it got frozen and blunder also posted it on the post spl discussion thread, so it also got recognition from some top OU players.

 

[Tressed]

I agree with Manectric and Raikou potentially moving down but I don't think Thundurus should be dropping alongside them. Basically Thundy doesn't suffer nearly as much from current trends as the other electric types do in that it has actual ways to play around some of the more common problems via Nasty Plot, Knock Off, an actual coverage movepool. It's just a lot more threatening against balance teams because you always know what you're getting into against Raikou and Manectric, but Thundurus could reasonably be running a ton of different stuff that might make your electric check suddenly a lot shakier. Stuff like Mega Latias and Amoonguss being popular also makes Thundurus way more attractive than its competition since it can actually push its way through that stuff via Nasty Plot. The matchup against sand offense blows obviously but even in those situations it's still a pretty dangerous offensive presence that typically pulls it's weight.

Also wanna touch on some old Magnezone stuff from the last page. C rank is a really good spot for Magneton given that it's gonna be a worse Magnezone barring very few situations. It's actual matchups versus Torn-T and Weavile are not that good given how you're pretty much set on revenge killing them instead of actually switching in. Weavile's just gonna spam Knock Off and be that much better off now that one of your checks can't actually outrun it anymore. Torn-T can do the same thing, as well as just blow it up with Focus Blast / Superpower, but it also can just outlast Magneton via Regenerator, chunk it for 20% with Hurricane each time it wants to come in, switch into the team electric check, and watch Magnezone slowly die off. Like 90% of the time I'd rather be running Zone and an actual check to Weavile / Torn-T than this thing. Magneton's only real niche is patching up holes in teambuilding and even though the things it's able to revenge kill are pretty relevant I seriously disagree with the idea that the ability to shakily check two mons would push it all the way from C to B-.

 

[Bice]

Alrighty, might as well post my nomination.

Nominating Sylveon from C+ to C.
What does this thing do again? Oh right, Choice Specs Hyper Voice. That's... about it. It's outclassed in practically every role. Clefable outclasses it as a defensive fairy thanks to having far more useful defensive abilities, and it has nearly every tool Sylveon has and more. As for an offensive role, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, and even the likes of Mega Altaria and Togekiss outclass it. As for Baton Pass, that role is done better by Celebi (Passing Calm Mind is too slow anyway). Literally the only reason to use this thing is for its Choice Specs set. And even then, that's if your mega slot is occupied by something that isn't one of the after-mentioned megas and/or if you can't fit a good Defogger for Togekiss. In conclusion, there's very little reason to use this pink ribbon fox. Drop it to C, please.

(P.S.: I still hold my stance on normal Latias dropping. Also, if you're using Latias solely for HW support, Jirachi does it better.)

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Alrighty, might as well post my nomination.

Nominating Sylveon from C+ to C.
What does this thing do again? Oh right, Choice Specs Hyper Voice. That's... about it. It's outclassed in practically every role. Clefable outclasses it as a defensive fairy thanks to having far more useful defensive abilities, and it has nearly every tool Sylveon has and more. As for an offensive role, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, and even the likes of Mega Altaria and Togekiss outclass it. As for Baton Pass, that role is done better by Celebi (Passing Calm Mind is too slow anyway). Literally the only reason to use this thing is for its Choice Specs set. And even then, that's if your mega slot is occupied by something that isn't one of the after-mentioned megas and/or if you can't fit a good Defogger for Togekiss. In conclusion, there's very little reason to use this pink ribbon fox. Drop it to C, please.

(P.S.: I still hold my stance on normal Latias dropping. Also, if you're using Latias solely for HW support, Jirachi does it better.)

I won't deny that Sylveon doesn't have much over other Fairy-types, but are we really sure it's on the same level as base Heracross and Rotom-H? Almost all the Pokemon that do Sylveon's offensive job better are Mega Evolutions, which is a nontrivial niche by the very definition of Mega Evolution itself. You may well want Mega Latias to be able to switch into Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y comfortably, in which case you have no room for Mega Gardevoir. In this aspect, Choice Specs Sylveon provides a Pokemon that can drop Hyper Voice nukes much like Mega Gardevoir, and it's at least functional in this role. Compare to C-ranked Heracross, who only really has Guts to differentiate itself from Terrakion, which is certainly a far tinier niche than not taking up a Mega slot. I feel that everything you've stated are the reasons Sylveon is already in C+, and I just can't see it being in the same rank as Pokemon who have even smaller niches and/or perform their roles far worse.

 

[AM]

Lol Dugtrio shouldn't be at C though so that's not exactly a point in favor of maintaining Sylveons place. It's definitely much more defined in C+ where the niche of trapping is important for defensive teams and just in general with prevalence of Tyranitar and Heatran on bulky offense builds. I mean one of the greatest defensive archetypes this generation became what it was in part due to Dugtrio. People don't use Dugtrio for defensive points they use it for its ability to trap problems for defensive teams or teams in general like two of the mentioned threats above.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Point me to where I said people did use Dugtrio for defensive points. There's certainly a place for glass cannons in higher ranks (Weavile) but Dugtrio is not a glass cannon; it's frail AND weak. The only reason it's able to function against Heatran and Tyranitar is because it can hit them 4x with Earthquake and Reversal, respectively. Needing to hit 4x SE to do much says something about Dugtrio. Also, this isn't DPP anymore, Heatran and Tyranitar are not S-rank threats. I don't understand how beating two non-S-rank threats on one specific team archetype warrants a rank higher than C. I strongly disagree with you on Dugtrio, but fine, I'll go ahead and delete the Dugtrio comments from my post if my opinion on Dugtrio is really that unpopular.

 

[Martin]

Point me to where I said people did use Dugtrio for defensive points. There's certainly a place for glass cannons in higher ranks (Weavile) but Dugtrio is not a glass cannon; it's frail AND weak. The only reason it's able to function against Heatran and Tyranitar is because it can hit them 4x with Earthquake and Reversal, respectively. Needing to hit 4x SE to do much says something about Dugtrio. Also, this isn't DPP anymore, Heatran and Tyranitar are not S-rank threats. I don't understand how beating two non-S-rank threats on one specific team archetype warrants a rank higher than C. I strongly disagree with you on Dugtrio, but fine, I'll go ahead and delete the Dugtrio comments from my post if my opinion on Dugtrio is really that unpopular.

????????

Dugtrio is really good right now for its utility on stall, and it is still as solid on offense and balance as ever. If you think its only useful for trapping Heatran and Tyranitar, you are seriously deluded. It is really helpful for stuff like Hoopa-U (drops to this thing), Mega Diancie (see Hoopa), Raikou (OHKOed), Manectric (OHKOed without Intimidate) and a load of other things on top of those things, it is the one thing that makes the wonder trio core so effective at PP stalling stuff courtesy of Arena Trap, and ultimately just the sheer utility of trapping stuff to get a chunk off of them before it goes down, set up guaranteed rocks or any of the other things that it can do is really useful. It just has so much utility in general that it is very rare for me to have a match where I can say that Dugtrio was dead weight. You are seriously underselling the utility of being able to trap all grounded 'mons, and because of this it really isn't comparable to other glass canons. Honestly AM is right about it being more of a C+ 'mon because quite frankly this thing's current ranking undersells it a fucktonne.

 

[Punchshroom]

See this whole Sylveon argument would hold more merit if I can fathom why one wouldn't just run a Life Orb Clefable instead, and that isn't even a particularly common set. Like Sylveon gets outclassed badly enough by the Mega Fairy-types as it is, but Clefable is still the biggest hurdle Sylveon has to cross to really define a niche for itself, and it can't even do that.

All the reasons of why defensive Sylveon isn't even a viable option compared to Clefable still applies to offensive sets: Clefable's superior coverage / movepool, immunity to residual damage, and better recovery makes it more consistent and far easier to maintain. Sylveon's Fairy-type nuke is much less meaningful when the huge majority of OU's Fairy resists can shrug it off without worse for wear, while Clefable can circumvent them with its varied offensive movepool; any tools Sylveon has outside of its STABs are overshadowed by Clefable's numerous options (why do dry Baton Pass when u can click TWave / coverage?). Not to mention that Clef doesn't even have to be locked in and risk being forced out.

Sylveon does have superior bulk to LO Clefable, but how much attackers does Sylveon check that Clefable does not? Whatever the answer, Sylveon can only do so a couple of times at most, whereas Clefable's disregard for passive damage and ability to heal allows it to be more consistent at stopping the moms that it does check.

Tl;dr: Sylveon is severely outclassed by the competition, and I'm questioning even its current niche what with LO Clefable being easier to bring into battle, punch holes into stuff, build more flexibly with, maintain...everything really.

 

[Numera]

Unrank Sylveon. Or just put it into D if you're a picky bludz.

Putting it simply, Sylveon makes every team sub optimal. There's always a Clefable set that does it better. Every situational niche Sylveon claims to have over Clefable (hard hitting Hyper Voice on specs, avoiding some 2hkoes as a cleric) is completely refuted (LO Clefable has actual coverage and can nuke the fairy switchins into hell, most of the avoided 2hkoes mean jack without reliable recovery, respectively). There is simply no reason to use it any more when your team will about 100% of the time prefer some variant of Clefable. Why run Specs Sylveon + Mega Medicham when LO Clefable can Fire Blast its own fairy switchins? You've already got a better team lol. Add on to how much harder it is to wear down an LO Clefable and it's pretty clear why I should never run Sylveon and it should be dropped for having no reasonable niche at all over Clefable. It's more than just completely eclipsed with a niche, it's just completely pointless and damaging for your team. It doesn't offer any extra mons to check etc, just creating scenarios where you would much rather its counterpart.

Also please stop using it lol.

 

[Yay]

it has a niche that is outclassed by any other fairy attacker, lol. It's so hard to understand that choice specs set is heavily outclassed because of it must of holding a specs item, the poor coverage and the lack of reliable recovery? Clefable have huge coverage in Focus Blast and Fire Blast, it have recovery and can spam paralysis and is a win condition with calm mind. Damn, even boltbeam can be used on this lol. Gardevoir have huge coverage too(Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, etc), it have stab psyshock and can stallbreak with taunt/cm and cripple switch ins with Will-O-Wisp. But what sylveon have that Gardevoir or Clefable can't do? Baton Pass can be a reason, but it dont really matters when it cant hit most switch ins to make switching on it a problem. Momentum is good, but it can be catched with a lot of other things that pivot better.

Unrank Sylveon already pls

edit: lol take a azelfie's post died

 

[bludz]

I agree with Sylveon dropping but going unranked is taking it a bit far. I mean yes LO Clefable has more coverage and can switch moves (which counts for a lot) but Sylveon is more of a nuke. For example a defensive Lando-T can switch in and stomach a hit from LO Clef without too many problems whereas Specs Sylveon is gonna pretty much bury it. Ok generally Lando isn't the mon you want as your switch-in but in real game scenarios, if you don't need your Lando for anything else you may use it as such a switch-in to try to get some damage off with EQ or SD up to prevent a CM sweep.

The niche of being much more powerful right off the bat is significant enough when you consider that it has just enough coverage to neutralize a number of its potential switch-ins and many others can be taken advantage of by common partners to Sylveon such as Medicham. This is also not really considering stuff like fully specially defensive cleric sets and CM + BP sets - very niche admittedly but a sum of these parts leads me to believe Sylveon should still be ranked in some capacity.

I also agree that Dugtrio should be C+ - trapping is a very powerful mechanic and Dugtrio is capable of removing big time threats like Mega Diancie aside from the obvious Heatran / Ttar.

 

[Kibblecat]

EDIT: ninjad, but I'll leave this here anyway I guess since I said a lot... :P

Wow, never seen so much bandwagoning in my life. Since when did "it uses choice items" make something totally unviable? The whole 'what does it do that Garde/Clef can't' thing is just confusing, people are comparing them as if every clef has a all of Life Orb, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, recovery, status and calm mind, and that every M-Garde gets all four of it's useable attacking moves (HV, Psyshock, FB and SB) alongside all of it's utility. You can broadly compare viability of mons with similar roles in that way but not when talking to a mon like Sylveon with essentially one set (specs) that puts it on it's current rank... I'm skipping over the defensive set because I agree that if you're using that you should probably use Clef instead or even Togekiss unless you specifically want to shoot through subs with Hyper Voice which isn't enough really, BUT when talking about the specs set, shitting on Sylveon because it can't do all 17 things that Clef/Garde can at once while being a wall-breaker is just useless.

So, on that note, comparing wall breaker to wall breaker there are definitely good reasons to use this over Clef/M-Garde on certain specific teams. For a start its STAB hits harder than both of them with it's specs. Heck, certain offensive steel types (read - Mega Metagross, Excadrill) can't switch in on this twice. While it's missing certain coverage moves that it would like, it can just about find what it needs to hit most things that it needs to - and, seeing as people are already on the 'poor coverage' bandwagon, since when was being walled by either a choice of Ferrothorn/(healthy) Skarm or Heatran (depending on Sylv's chosen Hidden power of Fire/Ground) enough reason to make something totally unranked? It's gonna be choice locked most of the time anyway so being walled by something isn't the biggest issue when it's not usually staying in more than a turn at a time. People are comparing this to LO Clefable but last I checked Clef couldn't beat certain Tran or Ferrothorn without a good prediction on the switch either regardless of what coverage moves it gets and also couldn't switch in, so sure it beats its checks in more situations but just having issues with two of the premier defensive mons in the game isn't really a convincing reason to completely unrank something thats already quite low anyway. With Garde, sure Sylv misses some utility but it still hits harder with it's STAB and works around a couple of the same checks on the switch with certain coverage moves, and well Sylv is so many ranks lower already for a reason anyway so nobody's under massive illusions by the fact that it's ranked.

So yeah, valid niche over things ranked higher than it = reason to use on specific teams = reason to have it ranked. Maybe it could go lower but can people stop bandwagoning the unrank thing just because its a mon that they've not recently found a good enough reason to use?