ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

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I feel like Vaporen should stay B-. Baton pass makes it functionally different enough from other water type pivots like slowking and alomamola by allowing it to create and maintain momentum. This is a semi-unique trait on a bulky water in UU and it allows vaporeon to hold a really solid niche as a defensive backbone on offensive team archetypes.

Toxicroak has been a potential A+ in my mind for a while so yeah, A rank is long overdue and may still be underselling froggys insane splashability.

Nidoking for A-, Yes. The mixed sets are just as good now as they were in XY, the atk invest needed to compensate 248/252+ def "mixed walls" is pretty negligible costing no really relevant ohko's/2 hit ko's with proper 4th slot coverage. The fact that a speed tier of 86 is super relevant at the moment is just icing on the cake.

Gatr never belonged in S tier tbh, that was shiny new toy syndrome at it's worst. It is damn good but.... Its incredible "Diversity" boils down to 2 sets with massive 4mss and a really harsh case of power vs speed and it really restricts your own teambuilding on anything but HO thanks to semi-forced type/role redundancy. A+ seems like a pretty good home for it though as it's raw power does mostly compensate for these flaws.

I really like escav and use it quite a bit, the band and bulky SD sets both do really good work on the right team. Swarm and overcoat are both pretty fantastic ability's and it's movepool options are fantastic. It's just... escav suffers from speed tier issues preventing it from really doing it's job efficiently. Don't get me wrong it can be A ranked power on the right team but it is restrictive due to a need for redundancy and competition from similar pokes with access to better overall utility. The metagame is less prepared for Escav so it may be B+ now due to a slight over prepare for cobalion and doublade but the overlap in checks and counters is enough to allow for a pretty rapid shift back to B usefulness.

Mamphy is a solid A-, pretty much all of it's flaws are mitigated by it's existence as a strong bird and fire resist in UU that's not named Maero. Access to a strong momentum move and being a water switchin in UU are just icing on the cake.

I support Mbee for A-, it's never going to happen but dear god that would be a well deserved drop. Bee strong af (if it's adamant) but it's a complete dead hole in team synergy and is a momentum user that gives your opponent free turns. It also can flat out die to offstab base 80 moves such as pursuit and espeed, hell boosted 40 BP priority ohko's bee. It does do really good work on the right team but bee just is not as splashable as people make it out to be and it can be a completely dead mon slot in certain matchups. Bee's strengths do cover it's flaws and it does have some really good matchups, but the potential for it to just flat out fizzle is just too much for me to consider it more than an A- poke.
 
There has been some very good discussion recently with some very fair nominations. Here are my thoughts on some stuff that has been brought up and I have a few ideas to be discussed as well.

The main pokemon I want to talk about is:

Cobalion ----> S Rank:
I am really happy this was brought up because it really made me realize how worthy Cobalion is of S Rank. Cobalion is with out a doubt the most splashable Pokemon in ORAS UU. When talking about viability in the UU tier, nothing is more of a viable option than Cobalion. It fits so many rolls into one pokemon and it does each roll amazingly. I will try and name a few

  • Speedy Stealth Rock setter
  • Revenge killer
  • Late game cleaner/Setup Sweeper(Stealth Rock and Swords Dance is a perfectly viable set together)
  • Mega Beedrill Check
  • Snorlax Counter
  • Life Orb Hydreigon check(I say this loosely)
  • Fairy Check
  • Pretty much any Dark check. Etc; Umbreon, Mandibuzz, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Absol.
  • Aerodactyl Check
I would keep on going but this is going on for too long. What really makes Cobalion that good is its versatility. Cobalion can run 5-6 different viable sets and you can choose what caters too your team and what your team needs. On top of Cobalion's obvious utility it also offensively does well versus the entire tier. Cobalion can change its set to fix to your teams weaknesses. I'll give a few examples

  • Shuca Berry as a Mamo / Krookodile switch in
  • SD + Volt Switch / Special HP Dark for Doublade
  • SD X-Scizzor for Reuniclus / Slowking
  • SD Stone Edge for Chandelure and Salamence
  • Rock Polish Swords Dance for a great late game sweeper and to check a lot of offense/ bulky offense
  • Full utility set with Stealth Rock + Thunder-Wave + Volt Switch + Sacred Sword
So this pretty much sums up why Cobalion is worthy of S Rank as it fits on any UU team.

Mega Beedrill ----> A Rank(
Disagree, NO WAY): Mega Beedrill is a Top 2 Mega right now, easily. Its speed and power with an Adamant Nature blows back every team. Due to Beedrill being faster than every pokemon but Mega Aero means that it punches wholes through the whole tier. The only way to check such pokemon is to pivot into your Steel type or Gligar and to proceed to get whittled by hazards and taking 20% with U turn. Mega Beedrill would be a lot worse if its counters actually got recovery but they do not. Every Beedrill check lacks recovery except Gligar. On top of that, Beedrill's checks are insanely easy to prepare for(Forretress, Aggron, Gligar, Etc). Not to mention Beedrill checks a ton of the tier including Florges, Reuniclus, Hydreigon, etc.

Snorlax ------> A- Rank:
Vapo is right for bringing this up. Snorlax was an amazing pokemon not too long ago but now it has not found itself shining in the current meta. Steel, Ghost, and Fighting types have been everywhere recently as well as other common setup sweepers being able to do well versus it. It is really hard for Snorlax to be a switch into a lot of special attacks and at the same time getting up multiple Curses and attempting to sweep. Not to mention any good team has at least one solid check for it, and most of the common checks are splashable and wall Lax effectively.

My Own Nominations:

Mega Aerodactyl -----> S Rank:
Mega Aerodactyl is the most consistent Mega Evolution right now. I never really agreed with Aerodactyl dropping to A+ in the first place. Aero is the best revenge killer in the tier and is the best option to demolish Hyper Offense. Dactyl replaces the need for a Scarfer and can run a few different sets to cater to your team, similar to Cobalion. I think the main reason people started to dislike Aerodactyl was because it was at the time people were using as their Defoger which is, more often than not, not the the best option. Hone Claws, Pursuit, and Crunch sets are all amazing right now and check so much of the tier. Pursuit can check Chadelure and Beedrill, Hone Claws can sweep weaken teams, and Crunch(Also can be paired with Pursuit) can lure in and check pokemon like Reuniclus, Slowking, Cresselia, and Jellicent.

On the Fence:

Suicune ---------> A+ Rank:
Although Suicune is a great pokemon I do not think it is S rank material right now. The Rest set with no Sleep Talk is really easy to deal with and its sadly its most common set. The most viable set on Suicune in my opinion is Roar/Talk because it can check offense really well and it says alive throughout the game abusing its ability, Pressure. I also think standard CroCune is good right now although it obviously loses to other Calm Mind users. Any viable team has answers to the common Suicune sets right now although it is still an amazing pokemon. On the fence.

Whimsicott------> A+ Rank:
Whimsicott is a huge part of UU right now and rightfully so. It single handily checks a ton of pokemon and especially pokemon that a lot of UU have trouble with, examples: Feraligar, RD Mega Pert, Hydreion, Salamence, and Encoring Calm Mind users like Reuniclus Suicune and Florges. Obviously the access to U turn and with Max HP and Defense it is probably the best pivot in the tier. What makes me on the fence is how easy it is to whittle down since it checks so much at once.
 
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I honestly believe Vaporeon is by far the worst bulky water in the tier; including Milotic. It is not particularly good at checking anything, it eats momentum and has way too much competition in the tier for me to even consider using it.

Its bulk looks fine on paper, but it's not enough for Vaporeon to consistently check top threats in ORAS UU. Hell, it's not even enough to keep up with DPP OU threats, which is the metagame that banned Salamence (an ORAS UU staple) for being ridiculously strong, and that's why it is borderline nonexistent in tournaments. The main problem is how easy is to force Vaporeon to use Wish and Protect, and lose all momentum in the process.

252 SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 204-240 (45.1 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Infernape Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 166-196 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 204 HP / 56 SpD Vaporeon: 139-165 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 138-162 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Let's first note that none of this moves is particularly strong. They are not weak, however there are significantly stronger examples. [eg: 252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 204 HP / 248+ Def Vaporeon: 249-294 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]

Vaporeon is not 2HKOd by any of those moves, which is nice. But after switching in and tanking those moves, what do you do?

Those Pokemon can switch to a counter while Vaporeon uses any move. If it doesn't use Wish and is forced out, now Vaporeon cannot switch into any of those moves again. If it uses Wish, there are three possible scenarios: 1) The counter has a free turn while Vaporeon uses Protect 2) Vaporeon switches out to a Pokemon that can deal with the counter and supports it with Wish, but Vaporeon doesn't heal itself so it cannot switch into those moves a second time 3) Vaporeon doesn't use Protect and doesn't switch out, which means the counter can just remove it from the game. Alomomola has similar issues, the difference is that Regenerator keeps it healthy without being forced to Protect.

I see people hyping up Baton Pass + Wish and I honestly don't understand why. Like, ok you can Baton Pass the Wish and make sure the recipient has a safe switch-in. Cool, now your Vaporeon took two hits instead of one (the 2nd possibly being from a Pokemon that threatens it), didn't heal itself and now it cannot switch into anything. Additionally, it cannot run Ice Beam coverage, Roar to shuffle or Heal Bell to support its team. How does Baton Pass even help? Are people simply assuming the opponent is not going to do anything to threaten Vaporeon?

I honestly don't see why people believe slow Wish + Baton Pass is good. Literally no Pokemon has reliably use that in any generation. Umbreon and Vaporeon have been available for a while, Sylveon is a thing now as well, and yet in my 7-8 years of playing Pokemon I have never seen anyone* seriously arguing the viability of slow Wish + Baton Pass or successfully using that combination in a tournament.

*outside of people arguing about Vaporeon's "niche" in ORAS UU

Suicune has Calm Mind, massive bulk and versatility. Slowking has Regenerator, Slack Off and Calm Mind. Milotic has Haze and Recover (which allows it to use the former). Alomomola has Wish and Regenerator. Mega Blastoise is a tank + Rapid Spin. Tentacruel has Rapid Spin and can setup / absorb Toxic Spikes. Swampert has Electric immunity, Stealth Rock and a really strong Mega. Vaporeon has Wish + Baton Pass ?_?

There are honestly arguments to make Vaporeon D rank, as it simple has way too much competition to be called viable in UU. I'd ok with making it C, but it does not deserve to be higher than that.

Just for the record, I rank Gastrodon and Quagsire higher than Vaporeon, but they are quite unpopular right now, so ignoring them for now. Not sure why Gastrodon isn't even ranked right now tho.

PS: The reason why Wish + Baton Pass Jolteon is (and was) a thing is because it has 130 base Speed.
 

nv

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Cobalion

Right now, I know that Cobalion has a ton of utility to offer in one slot; however, I do not feel it is S rank...for now. It just has too much of a hard time getting past some mons it wants to without the help of teammates such as Doublade, Krookodile and Mamoswine should it lack Shuca Berry. While it does have access to Volt Switch to potentially pivot out of its checks, most setup variants (i.e. SD Cobalion) doesn't tend to run Volt Switch alongside SD + STABs from what I have seen. Cobalion also has very common weaknesses in Fire, Fighting, and Ground, which are common in UU making its bulk not as potent as it should or could be.


Snorlax

As Christo and Vapo have said, the current meta hasn't been nice to Snorlax. While it has accustomed to the new meta (running Crunch or Earthquake > Sleep Talk on the potent CurseLax set), it still has trouble with the Ghost- and Steel-types that have gained popularity such as Cobalion, Chandelure, and Doublade. Doublade and Cobalion also have ways of getting around Snorlax's boosts thanks to Sacred Sword's secondary effect of ignoring said boosts. Plus being forced to run Earthquake or Crunch over Sleep Talk on the CurseLax set means Snorlax becomes major setup bait, which isn't really good at all. While it is still a great win condition for bulky teams, it isn't as potent as it once was and as such should be dropped.


Mega Aerodactyl

While I do agree with most that this is the most splashable Mega UU has to offer, I don't feel like it is S rank material. The fact that it has a multitude of sets and moves it can run, I feel like it isn't bulky enough to tank hits or hit as hard as it should unless it is against a target that is hit supereffectively. Mega Aerodactyl also has a slight case of 4MSS sometimes because it wants STABs, Roost, EQ, and then a plethora of moves in an "invisible" 5th slot. While it is the most splashable Mega UU has, it also still has to compete for said Mega slot since UU has a pretty decent amount of good Megas to offer such as Mega Swampert and Mega Beedrill.


Suicune

I am kind of on Christo with this one. I feel like Suicune is well known for what set it is running; however, it is a very effective set (talking about RoarCune ofc). Plus the fact that a team must always prepare for this Pokemon means it isn't as effective as it should be. The reason I could see it staying S is the fact that while RoarCune is common, it also has other effective sets such as CM 3 Atks, Tailwind Offensive, and more I am sure that I am forgetting, lol. But I could also see it dropping to A+ because it just isn't as much of a "threat" as a S rank mon should be, hence why I am on the fence.


Whimsicott

I really really want this to agree with A+ because I truly do feel like it deserves it, but I also do not think this is a "this should've already happened by now" nom either. While Whimsicott provides amazing Speed, utility, and defensive purpose to any kind of team due to its Grass / Fairy typing, it also lacks the bulk it should to be the "blanket check" it should be. Another reason I am leery of making this A+ is like what Christo said in that Whimsicott is really easy to wear down even if it carries Leftovers. Another problem is that it has to invest in its defenses to make use of its typing, but then lacks the offensive presence it wants. And if it invests in its offensive stat, then it lacks the defensive utility to check all threats it can check such as Hydreigon, Feraligatr, and RD Mega Swampert. Overall, leaning towards A+, but not fully convinced as it lacks the stats to do what it wants with ease.
 
I always viewed Vaporeon's niche as being able to compress the roles of a cleric and a bulky water into a single slot, which can be useful for some teams. Meaningfully using a Wish + Baton Pass combo rarely happens in a high-level game, as an opponent can trivially apply pressure to prevent you from being able to profit from that. BP is still a decent option for other reasons though. Scald / Wish / Protect / Heal Bell isn't done by any of the other bulky waters. Because of that it shouldn't be D, but somewhere in the C ranks would suit it better because in most cases the other bulky waters are just better.
 
Cobalion to stay A+: I really like brobalion so this is a bit painful for me, its an ok dancer and the utility sets are " what if fortress was actually good in terms of team compression". S just seems like an overhype though. Cobalion does have an incredible case of 4mss which is...impressive considering it has a whopping 9-10 useable moves. I would absolutely consider this flaw negligible, but when combined with cobalions reliance on lum berry on SD sets lacking substitute and its awkward base 90 offenses that manage to be "good enough" when boosted but utter booty unboosted and cobalions tendancy to give up free turns to some honestly terrifying pokemon...at +2, and brobal's everything check status is somewhat hampered. Even with these flaws I could support this nom if not for one problem, UU absolutely vomits quality fighting types and has a good number of steels that really compete with cobalion for team slots. A+ is richly deserved as cobal does absolutely stand head and shoulders above it's fellows but the fact that cobalion is not the "best" choice to fill the niches it provides on even half the teams I toss together is really just the nail in the S ranked coffin for me.

Maero to S: No shit. Non S ranked Maero is quite literally a running joke.

Suicune to A+: Yeah absolutely, cune is great but it's tendancy to mow down low ladder scrubs makes people forget that it plinks off of reasonably prepared teams.

A+ Whimsicott: Cotton balls insane utility easily compensates for any and all of its flaws. I can see this happening.

Edit, just read hikari's post: Yeah gastro is probably a solid B/B+ rank thanks to "hi i'm like swampert+Seismi, but with recovery and better movepool options outside of rocks!" I assume it's unranked for the same reason rhyperior never went UU in the bidspam+firespam block of suspecting, "Muh swampert tho".
 
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Ununhexium

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Yeah Cobalion doesn't really seem S rank to me. I do love using it and it really is an amazing Pokemon, but it does have a few flaws which really suck for it. First off, it has rather subpar special bulk, so it can't really switch into stuff like Life Orb Hydreigon multiple times throughout the match (LO Draco Meteor does over 50%, not to mention that's a resisted hit). Also, Cobalion doesn't really have the sheer power that would be really nice being a Fighting-type, as base 90 Attack really just isn't that good. Also, its lack of reliable recovery (which also takes up a moveslot which Cobalion is already pressed for) makes it hard to even switch into stuff like Beedrill multiple times throughout the match if hazards are up. It does check a ton of stuff (SD Lucario, non-EQ Maero, Mega Beedrill, etc), which is why it deserves A+, but it really doesn't fit in with S rank imo.

Mega Aerodactyl really needs to go back up to S rank. It's just an absolute monster right now as it can check Mega Beedrill which is one of the best Pokemon in UU right now and has fairly decent matchups with a lot of top tier Pokemon and can pick off different ones by running the correct coverage move. Feraligatr, Hydreigon, and Salamence all really hate eating a Stone Edge and Reuniclus doesn't like Crunch. The only S rank that really wants to deal with it is Suicune. Cobalion doesn't like Earthquake, and Krookodile and Mamoswine hate Aqua Tail (though Mamo has Ice Shard to revenge kill). The point is, nothing really wants to take on Maero until they know what moves it's running outside of its STAB moves.

Not really sure about Suicune or Whimsicott.

Also

Yo if we're gonna talk about Fighting-types with good NP sets can we talk about Lucario too? It's actually a REALLY good set, I might even argue better than SD because everyone always expects SD only to get their Cobalion or Krookodile bopped by a +2 Vacuum Wave. Also, while Toxicroak's Water immunity is awesome to have, Lucario (with Focus Blast, which is a viable option) can OHKO Suicune, so it can't safely phaze it out. It's not even like Lucario can't beat Florges either because it has Steel-type STAB. Also, Lucario can OHKO Blissey, which Toxicroak can't. I'm not saying Toxicroak is bad, I'm just saying I don't think a Water immunity alone is enough to warrant a rise over something with more power and Speed.
We should talk about this too imo :)
 
I totally agree with vaporeon moving to c and it should stay there
My next nomination (Milotic from c to d) honestly when this is brought up I hear what's the difference if it's moved down to d well it being in c rank means it has a niche well tbh I don't see what milotics niche is I feel like cloyster goodra and vaporeon hold more niches so I just don't see how Milotic is c rank worthy
 
Milotic distinguishes itself from other bulky water-types, particularly Vaporeon, with one-turn recovery and Haze preventing it from being fodder for bulky setup 'mons. While largely outclassed (as are many if not most of the pokemon in C-rank), it's not totally unviable, as D-rank implies.
 

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Vaporeon to C: slowly but surely vapo has fallen and should continue to do so. Even the water snake is more viable this vap because it can recover hp quick than vap can. It's just dead weight for any team and is just way to passive to have any effectiveness at all.

Croak to A: I don't really mind whether it gets bumped or not but croak has been used very effectively on the ladder and it even has a special set featured by Yifeng so I guess I'll give the poison frog the benefit of the doubt.

Whimsicott to A+: This is a tough call tbh because I think a lot of people really want/feel like whims is A+ worthy with its fantastic speed tier, utility, and versatility. However there are can be some crucial drawbacks as to which set you choose. The bulky variants provide amazing pivot support and utility with leech seed and stun spore to give it sweeper stopper capabilities as well. However bulky whimsicott has next to nothing in terms of offensive presence. You can't even KO a salamence with moonblast after rocks which just kind of sums up how week it really is and moonblast isn't like scald or tri attack where you can have a chance to inflict status on an opposing mon which makes it that much weaker. However I think the encore support and overall utility outweighs the little offensive presence it provides.

I generally prefer an offensive pixie plate or life orb set because its speed tier is really nice and offensive whims can really mess up opposing offensive builds while still holding a good amount of utility with encore. The drawback to offensive whims is that you are now one the frailest mons in the tier which kinda sucks but overall I really want it to rise so im gunna go out on a limb and say give whims the bump.

Even though this mon is not being talked about right now, I want to discuss about pangoro. Right now pangoro is sitting with the B rank mons and I just don't think it deserves to be in the same playing field as mega houndoom who has shown to be extremely effective in the current meta and pangoro hasn't shown me anything. I guess I'm kinda saying that mega doom needs another bump and or goro gets dropped down a bit because those 2 mons being the same rank doesn't make sense to me. Not to mention there is literally no reason not to use something like an orbed heracross over goro giving it stiff competition with the premier fighting types in the tier. Idk it being B just doesn't make any sense to me but I could be missing something idk....
 
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Again, I nominate Scyther for C-Rank.

Just ask other people, I'm going to bed, but it has some serious power and can ruin some slower teams or ping faster ones with Quick Attack and blah blah blah goodnight.
 
I have only one nomination: Umbreon for A/A- rank.

This mon is so often overlooked but honestly, it's a monster. It is by far the best cleric in the UU tier, boasting amazing 95/110/130 defenses, having access to Heal Bell and being able to pass pretty large Wishes. But what makes it much stronger than Vap, Blissey and even Florges is its access to Foul Play, meaning it can actually deal big damage and isn't setup fodder for threatening Pokémons such as Doublade or Feraligatr. As such, it fits in any kind of teams, and can even be effective in offensive teams, which usually do not carry clerics, as they cannot afford to lose momentum.

In my opinion it is good enough for A- rank, and maybe even A rank.
 
A is a little high, but looking at A- I feel Umbreon fits in well. Cobalion's rise has kind of sucked for it, but it's been deserving of the spot for a while as it's definitely above the defensive threats in B+. It's a mon that deals with 3/5 S rank mons with a single set- phys def is a counter to feraligatr outside of the very rare superpower, counters any mence set as it's not 2hko'd by a life orb draco at max rolls after rocks + leftovers, is an easy switch in to scarf Hydreigon but also can deal with life orb dreigon if rocks aren't up, again avoiding the 2hko from life orb draco with a phys def spread.

Beyond this in A+, a phys def set counters Mega Aerodactyl, Krookodile, Mega Swampert and Mamoswine, while Entei and Bee hate switching in due to the threat of foul play, especially Bee as it's easily 1hkod. Cobalion again is the thorn in its side, but it's fun to note that unboosted Close Combat can be pp stalled with wishtect if needs be (I once managed to cheese out someone in a room tour with this, think it was Sacri). On to A, its phys def set is a counter to any Mega Abomasnow set bar the basically non-existent special focus blast ones, it also deals with any Azelf set except nasty plot with dazzling gleam, easily deals with Doublade, counters MegaShark (Waterfall is a possible 5hko lmao) and even deals with Nidoqueen.

I'll leave it there, but that isn't even mentioning the spdef variation that deals with Reuniclus' attacking sets (and I've even seen taunt umbreon used on stall to deal with cm), deals with the special dragons even more easily, counters any nasty plot azelf, deals with chandelure, nidoqueen even more easily etc. Unlike Pory2, it walls this stuff while A, not being crippled by knock off allowing it to deal with Krook and Mamo far more effectively, and B, providing different utility to the team with wish and heal bell.

My favourite set for more balanced teams ditches heal bell for Baton Pass, which lets you take advantage of the stuff Umbreon walls and gain easy momentum- and considering its switchins are almost always fighting types, it's a nice way to get in fighting-resistant wallbreakers like Dragalge, Moltres and Chandelure to nuke stuff. Safe wishes are nice yeah, but it's more about keeping momentum which is something most other walls struggle with.
 
I have only one nomination: Umbreon for A/A- rank.

This mon is so often overlooked but honestly, it's a monster. It is by far the best cleric in the UU tier, boasting amazing 95/110/130 defenses, having access to Heal Bell and being able to pass pretty large Wishes. But what makes it much stronger than Vap, Blissey and even Florges is its access to Foul Play, meaning it can actually deal big damage and isn't setup fodder for threatening Pokémons such as Doublade or Feraligatr. As such, it fits in any kind of teams, and can even be effective in offensive teams, which usually do not carry clerics, as they cannot afford to lose momentum.

In my opinion it is good enough for A- rank, and maybe even A rank.
Umbreon is setup fodder for espeon and florgres and it can't do much to special wall breakers but wall them but I can see it getting a rise
 
Umbreon is setup fodder for espeon and florgres and it can't do much to special wall breakers but wall them but I can see it getting a rise
Please explain to me how Espeon sets up on Umbreon...

0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Espeon: 158-188 (58.3 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- Even with 0 Attack IVs

And if you're keeping an Umbreon in on a CM Florges, you're either stupid, clicking Toxic, or haven't realized it's CM and will switch into your counter next turn.

Anyways, A- would be a good spot for Umbreon, as it's always performed great as both a general defensive wall and a cleric for teams, supported by that delicious STAB Foul Play to threaten a lot of mons.

Vaporeon needs to fall to C. Everyone talks about how Milotic is outclassed in every way in the tier, well Vaporeon is probably even worse in that category. Only real thing it has right now is that stupid Baton Pass strategy to "beat" Suicune. Sure, the big Wishes are nice, but mons like Florges' and Umbreon's are generally sufficient in that category.
 

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While on the topic of Umbreon I'd like to concur with it moving to A-. A is too high since Cobalion and other fighting types are everywhere BUT it's bulk is just insane. Both phys and specially defensive Umbreon are equally viable and blanket check so so much. One must consider its niches over Florges if it were to move up, as Florges is its main competition as a cleric/wish passer.

  1. Umbreon's phys def set counters many more things that Florges can't. Skankovich covered the greatness of this set, so I'll leave it at this and cover the SpD set.
  2. Umbreon counters any Mence. Florges, while no doubt being a great Mence check, is killed by a boosted Iron Tail. Umbreon eats Dracos for breakfast and KOs DD sets with Foul Play. However, MixMence can nab a KO with some prior damage (I think) with Draco + Outrage
  3. Umbreon can handle the Nidos, NP Azelf, Doublade, Aggron, Gatr (kinda, it can't really switch in but it can 1v1 it), M-Aboma, Chandelure, and Reuniclus (with Taunt). Note: Umbreon checks many more things but these are the ones that SpD Umbreon can check and Florges can't
  4. Synchronize > whatever garbage ability Florges runs. It makes the opponent think twice before they spam scald/toxic.
  5. Access to Taunt is HUGE! As mentioned before, Reuniclus no longer can use you as set up fodder because of Taunt and +1 FB doesn't 2HKO. Lax is also denied both set up and recovery. Slow hazard setters and removers can't do their thing on Umby, and passive mons like P2, Alo, Slowking are denied recovery. The lack of heal bell sucks but I alleviate that by putting it on a different mon
  6. Bigger wishes! This is an obvious one but cannot be understated.
Unfortunately, the king bulky sweeper of UU, Suicune, does not give a shit about Anything Umbreon has to offer, and Umbreon invites all the fighting types in the tier to come in. This can be mitigated by Protect, since a lot of them are Choiced, and Shao does not want to click HJK on Protect, but these flaws are enough to keep it out of A.

Other comments: I agree with the Snorlax and Vaporeon drop. Everything about Lax has been said (has anyone seen a Snorlax sweep recently?), and Vaporeon is just garbage. I'd personally put it on D with Hikari but i can see why it's not since it's not as shit as Trevenant and co were
 

Hogg

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My thoughts on some of the 'mons I see being discussed currently...

Cobalion to S Rank -> AGREE

This goat has come a long way. Ultimately the reason I think this deserves a slot is due to its incredible versatility - it fits on almost every team, every playstyle. While it has some great offensive potential thanks to that typing and Speed tier, the main thing I think Cobalion has going for it is role compression. It is great for so many teams because it can fill multiple roles at once - it can act as a defensive pivot, be your hazard setter, do work as a revenge killer and even sweep, sometimes even all on a single set. That's a really big deal, and if it lacks the utter devastation of Gatr or the immediate power of Hydreigon, it makes up for it with the degree to which it eases teambuilding. (Also, Double Dance LO Cobalion is scary af.)

Mega-Houndoom to B+/A- -> AGREE

For me, the biggest shift in Mega-Houndoom's favor would be the shift away from common scarfers and toward bulky offense that the meta has been doing for the last couple of months. While Beedrill's popularity can make Houndoom's life a bit miserable, very little wants to switch into Houndoom, and it is easily becoming one of the scariest late-game cleaners around. I also want to talk a little bit about Houndoom's last moveslot. Protect and Taunt are definitely the major contenders here, with Protect helping considerably against offense and Taunt helping to break balance. However, I've been playing around with Flame Charge lately, and it is sick how scary Houndoom is with a speed boost. (I've even used Sucker Punch to surprise Beedrill in the past, although it's obviously situational as hell.) This definitely needs to at least go to B+, and I don't necessarily think A- would be a bridge too far.

Vaporeon to C -> SOMEWHAT DISAGREE

Hell, Vaporeon's not great, but it's not terrible either. Water Absorb is always useful, and while her physical bulk is consistently disappointing, Vaporeon's ability to take on things like the Nidos in addition to Wishpassing and switching into Scalds gives her a leg up over most of C rank in my opinion. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it if Vaporeon drops to C, as I almost never use her, but I think she's fine where she is.

Mega-Beedrill to A/A- -> DISAGREE

Are you insane?

Snorlax to A- -> ON THE FENCE

I think a lot of people are sleeping on Snorlax, to be honest - this guy still sweeps so many unprepared teams. While Cobalion and Doublade's popularity certainly hurts, the former doesn't like switching into Body Slams. It's also a great blanket switch-in to so many special attackers, so it can pull double duty in that respect. That said, I do think it requires more team support than most of A rank, even if it is also deadly as hell. I'm really on the fence here, because I think that Snorlax is as scary as ever, but I can also understand all the arguments for moving it down.

Mega-Aerodactyl to S -> AGREE

To be honest I never thought Aero should have moved down, but I also think the meta is especially favorable toward Mega-Aero right now. This is, in my opinion, the epitome of a low risk/high reward pokemon. Unless I'm specifically building around another Mega, this is what ends up on my teams 4 times out of 5, and it does good work in almost every single game. There is almost nothing it can't do - it can stallbreak, sweep, revenge kill, provide hazard support, spread status, pursuit trap... you name it, there's probably an Aero set that does it. It has insanely good coverage and an incomparable Speed tier. Right now I would say it has three sets that are particularly good in this meta: four attacks Aero with Pursuit, Adamant Hone Claws and Taunt Aero. Adamant Hone Claws Mega-Aero hits surprisingly hard and is really difficult for most standard bulky offense teams to deal with. To put things into perspective, it has a 50% chance to OHKO Cobalion from full after a boost, and it does 45-50% to Swampert with Aerial Ace. Four attacks Aero with Pursuit is just about the best revenge killer in the game, thanks to its ridiculously good coverage letting you pick and choose what you want to answer. Taunt Aero has been doing a lot of work lately for me by punishing bulkier balance teams that require cleric support, and has especially been doing well on hazard offense (which is probably one of the best offensive playstyles atm).

The popularity of Beedrill and the move away from a lot of common Scarfers also really helps Mega-Aero in the current meta. Basically, this is a good time to be a dinosaur. Move this beast back up to S, please.
 
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I would argue that snorelax should stay in A, not for it's easily managed 0 atk curselax set which really only exists to 6-0 low ladder scrublords, but for the little used offensive curselax/all out bulky attacker lax. The complete death of cofagrigus, bronzong and mismagius in the shift to gen 6 really was a huge gift killing off the 4mss that these sets previously had and allowing for a much greater freedom in both ev's and item choice. The atk invest is pretty damn relevant ohkoing hydrie after rocks, pursuiting down mbee and rotom-C along with assorted ghosts, smashing through reuniclus, and even taking on otherwise hard counters such as doublade if they try to take you on.

Similarly the old parashuffle restalk lax set is pretty damn good atm as most mons need setup to really deal with fatman and the few that do not despise risking body slam para. It's pretty consistent at setting up sweeps for wincon pokes like slurpuff that really rely on steel wither and hazard damage and is different enough from the ever popular roarcune to not really compete for teamslots in this niche.

This may just be "unexpected set syndrome" but these have all been effective enough for me to consider lax borderline A+. If anyone cares to run these and see if your experience matches mine I'd love to hear about it, but I feel like moving lax down because "the overprepared for set is overprepared for" is pretty garbage logic.
 
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Hogg

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If anyone cares to run these and see if your experience matches mine I'd love to hear about it, but I feel like moving lax down because "the overprepared for set is overprepared for" is pretty garbage logic.
One of the teams I was testing for Open with used RestTalk Whirlwind Lax. It was really solid in that particular team, but requires a decent bit of team support, and is probably less useful overall than CurseLax or Pursuit Lax. In general I think it's outclassed by Suicune, who has a much better defensive typing and a decent enough Speed to make Sleep Talk'd Roars actually worth something, but it certainly has its uses.
 
One of the teams I was testing for Open with used RestTalk Whirlwind Lax. It was really solid in that particular team, but requires a decent bit of team support, and is probably less useful overall than CurseLax or Pursuit Lax. In general I think it's outclassed by Suicune, who has a much better defensive typing and a decent enough Speed to make Sleep Talk'd Roars actually worth something, but it certainly has its uses.
Honestly roarcune is probably better on balanced/semi teams focused on pokemon who like having hydrie grasses and waters withered, while phaselax tends to favor BO/balanced that focuses on steel/rock/ghost wither and has a better 1v1 against shit like stallbreaker hydrie.

I will agree that cune certainly has better overall utility in this set but lax certainly has enough incomparable's to really carve out it's own separate niche in this role.

Edit: To clarify, I'm arguing that lax should probably stay A (or even rise to A+) based on the collective viability of all of it's sets rather than any one set as they can all put in pretty good work on the right team archetype. I really just want to see more arguments based on NOT classic curselax variants.
 
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Okay I've been lurking in this thread for awhile now as I learned UU and I think Ive played enough a this point to give my opinion here and not sound like an idiot hah

Vaporeon to C -> AGREE

As everyone has already said Vaporeon dosent really have a use anymore. Maybe it could be a very niche thing to put on a team that desperately needs a wish passing bulky water but its just not good. Vape is extremely passive and predictable and since the meta seems to be favoring offensive (this includes bulky offense) builds, Vape is almost always dead weight.

Mega-Beedrill to A/A- -> DISAGREE

The Bee is great. There are so many positive things about Mega Bee I dont know where to start. It has a great speed tier which allows it to run adamant. Adamant Bee does 8 billion damage to everything. Honestly the momentum it provides is so valuable for a team. Uturn does atleast 15% to even defensive mons and it you add on hazard damage.. its whittling things at the least. I think Bee adds so much to any team with its positive traits and is such a pain to play against I dont see how it could drop.


Snorlax to A- -> AGREE

I agree with this because I have never seen a Snorlax do anything. Maybe I started playing after this thing was crushing teams but now I feel like its a momentum killer currently. The mono attacking set is just not working with all the ghosts around. Especially since Hoopa got added. I think everyone can agree you do not want Hoopa coming in for free. I know you could run like Curse/Return/EQ/Rest but rest sets just arnt the same without sleep talk. Having two guaranteed dead turns is terrible right now with all the offensive teams people are using. So that really just leaves the band set, and while that set isnt necessarily bad, its definitely not great. So I think all of those problems warrant Snorlax to drop.

Mega-Houndoom to B+/A- -> ON THE FENCE

I so badly wanted to type agree but Im just not sure. I think we all want Mega Doom to be good. We look at it and go, "wow thats a sick design and it has good stats, I can make a lord team around this." But it just seems like something is missing when you use it. I saw someone, pretty sure it was r0ady, use taunt Doom in open and I instantly was like alright time to use this thing. However, Im not sold that its consistent enough to be raised. So many games Mega Doom literally cant do anything. It needs so much team support to be effective. Hazards are a problem and Mega Doom obviously cant heal itself. So that means you need something on your team to heal it and dedicated hazard removal. I dont think that dumping team slots into supporting a mon that MIGHT be the win conditioncondition is always a good idea. I still love Mega Doom and I think its awesome and I use it but Im unsure if its worth moving up.
Cobalion to S Rank -> AGREE

Before I talk about this I think that its important to read the S Rank intro - Reserved for Pokemon that are almost flawless in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and almost always brings a high reward. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are more than made up for by numerous positive traits.

Hello? If you dont read that and think of Cobalion you are doing something wrong. Coablion is so good right now. Christo wrote that whole list of all the roles it can fill. It preforms a ton of roles even better then effectively. Like what cant Coablion do? Its extremely low risk to use because it can always offer something in any team matchup. Its never ever dead weight and that alone warrants it being S. Rocker, pivot, cleaner, wall breaker. It can do all those roles with one set. Great typing, great move pool, great stats. It requires literally no team support. None. It can go on any team and be effective at something. Cobalion is a great mon and it very deserving of S rank.
 
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Mega-Houndoom to B+/A- -> ON THE FENCE

I so badly wanted to type agree but Im just not sure. I think we all want Mega Doom to be good. We look at it and go, "wow thats a sick design and it has good stats, I can make a lord team around this." But it just seems like something is missing when you use it. I saw someone, pretty sure it was r0ady, use taunt Doom in open and I instantly was like alright time to use this thing. However, Im not sold that its consistent enough to be raised. So many games Mega Doom literally cant do anything. It needs so much team support to be effective. Hazards are a problem and Mega Doom obviously cant heal itself. So that means you need something on your team to heal it and dedicated hazard removal. I dont think that dumping team slots into supporting a mon that MIGHT be the win condition. I still love Mega Doom and I think its awesome and I use it but Im unsure if its worth moving up.
I really have to disagree here. This seems like an argument that one would give Houndoom at the beginning on ORAS tbh. I have been using and building with Houndoom a lot recently, especially using the team featuring r0ady's UU open game like you referred to. Houndoom has been nothing but consistent. It can literally 6-0 teams when it gets the chance to setup( It can setup quite easily as it has better bulk than people give it credit for). There really are not many teams that can have a good match vs. Houndoom because the only mons that give Houndoom problems are Mega Aero, Beedrill, and a well played Hydreigon. Scroll through the entire VR and you can see that almost nothing wants to take on a +2 Houndoom, especially because this meta has shifted to most teams lacking Choice Scarfers( Rightfully so, Choice Scarf'd mons in UU are mostly pretty bad bar Mienshao and Mence which are both not good Scarfers atm). I recommend you test out Houndoom paired with a decent team because I can not see a way in which you think it is inconsistent.

Edit: teal6 vs Sweep R7 from UU open. Houndoom wins again, classic.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-uu-93726
 
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I feel like you guys focus too much on Cobalion's positive traits and don't want to see its flaws.

Cobalion definitely is a great mon in the current meta, but it has too much downsides to be considered as an "almost flawless" Pokemon:

mediocre Atk stat for a Fighting-type Pokemon, meaning it suffers from a cruel lack of offensive pressure on bulky Pokemons, sometimes even with a +2 boost. Gligar, Suicune, Arcanine, heck even Aggron do what they want

bad SpD: it sadly can't switch into Pokemons it's supposed to check, such as Empoleon, Florges, Whimsicott

• while its typing is pretty good, it still leaves Cobalion with disgusting weaknesses to the most common types (Ground, Fighting and Fire), limiting its role as a pivot

is complete setup fodder for dangerous Pokemons, too often leading to an ennemy killing spree: Doublade gets a free SD, Chandy can sub or CM, Reuni can CM or focus blast, Suicune sets up or spread free burns, even Salamence and Feraligatr can set up without fearing much from Coba (unless +2 or lucky flinches). That's way too much

I can see why people think Cobalion deserves S rank, as it is a staple in many teams, but in my opinion it is just not good enough.
 
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I feel like you guys focus too much on Cobalion's positive traits and don't want to see its flaws.

Cobalion definitely is a great mon in the current meta, but it has too much downsides to be considered as an "almost flawless" Pokemon:

mediocre Atk stat for a Fighting-type Polemon, meaning it suffers from a cruel lack of offensive pressure on bulky Pokemons, sometimes even with a +2 boost. Gligar, Suicune, Arcanine, heck even Aggron do what they want

bad SpD: it sadly can't switch into Pokemons it's supposed to check, such as Empoleon, Florges, Whimsicott

• while its typing is pretty good, it still leaves Cobalion with disgusting weaknesses to the most common types (Ground, Fighting and Fire), limiting its role as a pivot

is complete setup fodder for dangerous Pokemons, too often leading to an ennemy killing spree: Doublade gets a free SD, Chandy can sub or CM, Reuni can CM or focus blast, Suicune sets up or spread free burns, even Salamence and Feraligatr can set up without fearing much from Coba (unless +2 or lucky flinches). That's way too much

I can see why people think Cobalion deserves S rank, as it is a staple on many teams, but in my opinion it is just not good enough.
Well do you think that Suicune should drop then? Because you can't say that Suicune dosent have many exploitable weaknesses.
 
Well do you think that Suicune should drop then? Because you can't say that Suicune dosent have many exploitable weaknesses.
I could see Suicune drop, its Crocune set is not as effective as it used to be with all these Dry Skin users and Reuniclus being much more popular. The RoarCune set still is excellent, but only one "good set" is maybe not enough to keep it in S Rank.

But in my opinion Cune is much more worthy of S Rank than Cobalion right now.
 
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