Yea I forgot to mention that, thanks ^_^. I've personally only used the CB set and if you can bring Crawdaunt in on a slow volt switch/U-turn, passive Pokemon, or after one of your Pokemon gets KOd, it applies huge offensive pressure on the opponent. In essence, they have to decide who is going to die on their team.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4
- Thread starter dodmen
- Start date
- Status
To be honest, I agree with most of these nominations. For 1, I may be biased on Accelgor, but I did mention its viability being a little better in this meta. What makes Accelgor a possibility over Froslass, is that Accelgor has that unpredictability factor, and doesnt have to be a lead, or kill itself in the process. Being able to encore someone and set up spikes after is very useful. I mean, Froslass is usually the better choice still, but more people need to think about adding this guy as their lead/ offensive spiker. (Also just a side note, Focus Blast>Final Gambit is very good on Accelgor, being able to get rid of switchins like Cobalion, Empoleon, Lucario, etc.haven't really used mega blastoise much these days, but the times i did use it it was very underwhelming in what it does. as a hazard remover it's got better things to be doing than spinning and as a check to things like entei, you'll never get enough mileage out of it to entertain a serious build around it. from what i can interpret there are just better water-types to run sometimes on a team, like suicune or slowking if you're looking for a check to entei and gyarados or feraligatr if you're looking for something particularly destructive that can actually do something to p2 or florges. a water-type spinner if you're being specific? tentacruel works. tl:dr it's middle ground between a bulky water and offensive water, but doesn't really excel in either aspect. a- seems fine as it's still one of the better megas
since there hasn't been much discussion with the lack of nominations I've got a few points we could all touch on if that's alright
A to A-: With the return of Sableye and the prevalence of other bulky-psychics, especially Slowking who both bring a ton more defensive utility and splashability as it offers itself as a beneficial, more like necessary, water-type that all teams need, so Reuniclus is in a very tough spot in the current metagame. Slowking also preforms incredibly similar roles as Reuniclus whether it be OTR which is really hard to justify using in today's metagame and the defensive Calm Mind set.
B- to B: With spikes stacking teams becoming very common, Qwilfish fits as a nice setter that also works as a beneficial fire, fairy, and fighting-type check that can fill in several gaps at once that a spikes stacking team may have. It's also got nice utility lying in it's movepool with access to Thunder Wave, Taunt, Scald, and Pain Split for whittling down high HP mons like Blissey or Suicune.
B- to B: Aerodactyl is starting to receive the recognition it deserves as possibly the best suicide Stealth Rock setter in the tier as it's very reliable and can actually function beyond that of a suicide lead as it can get multiple turns to reset Stealth Rock.
C- to C: Accelgor fits in a similar vein with Qwilfish. The rising popularity of spike stacking often makes it a pretty valuable addition towards a team, but in this case more offensive builds. It's also got insane speed, Encore, and can "sacrifice" itself with Final Gambit. It's worth noting it can run a pretty fine offensive set as well with it's okay movepool making it a good revenge killer as well.
Aerodactyl definetly to B, its a really consistent suicide lead for HO teams right now, being able to shut down every single HO lead.
Now, with Qwilfish, I dont think it should go to B. Its not even that good in this meta tbh, and its kinda just stayed where it is, a B- mon that sees very little usage for a reason; I also find myself just using Tentacruel over Qwilfish a lot more.
I also dont agree with Reuniclus to A-. This thing used to be S rank for a reason, it is still a very prominent threat in the metagame, and can do so much work without any team support. Sure, Sableye did make it a little worse, and the meta has changed around it, but still, that doesnt mean it drops 3 ranks, 2 ranks was enough, for I think it should still be a A rank mon. Reuniclus's OTR set I have also found to be very good right now, This set absolutely destroys Hyper Offensive teams, and doesnt even need to be on a TR team.
Also dont have that much opinion on Mega-Blastoise, but A- seems fine, and B+ wouldn't be a bad spot either.
So just an overview of my quick opinion on these nominations my -Magic-
Reuniclus to A- Disagree
Qwilfish to B Disagree
Aerodactyl to B Agree
Accelgor to C Agree
This is my first post in any smogon viab so i will try to do that in the right way.
I don't know if i'm right but i would see well Tentacruel at A-. I found it pretty amazing in, surprisingly enough, a lot of playstyles. His ability to set up toxic spikes, remoove the hazards (helped in this work by his poison type of course) and to perform both against some threats in the tier, such as florges, cobalion, entei is quite appreciable and makes him a pretty good role compressor. Moreover, i find that toxic spikes are pretty amazing currently either in stall, balanced or in some bulky offenses builds.
Furthermore, i don't think tentacruel needs too much help to perform in his roles and that he's currently really easy to include in a lot of builds. Finally, Sableye's return is helping him a lot in offensive oriented builds for keeping his hazards on the field.
I don't know if i'm right but i would see well Tentacruel at A-. I found it pretty amazing in, surprisingly enough, a lot of playstyles. His ability to set up toxic spikes, remoove the hazards (helped in this work by his poison type of course) and to perform both against some threats in the tier, such as florges, cobalion, entei is quite appreciable and makes him a pretty good role compressor. Moreover, i find that toxic spikes are pretty amazing currently either in stall, balanced or in some bulky offenses builds.
Furthermore, i don't think tentacruel needs too much help to perform in his roles and that he's currently really easy to include in a lot of builds. Finally, Sableye's return is helping him a lot in offensive oriented builds for keeping his hazards on the field.
Why people are runing timid hoopa when modest is the best option in all sets besides the scarf (who isn't very good anyway)? Seriously.....
Is slow anyway and the extra power is noticiable. In fact, is possible no invest max speed for survive some hits in choice specs set and invest in HP or physical defense.
Is slow anyway and the extra power is noticiable. In fact, is possible no invest max speed for survive some hits in choice specs set and invest in HP or physical defense.
Band Darm faces huge competition from Band Entei. While Darm hits harder with Sheer Force boosted Flare Blitz and has access to U-turn, it can't just recklessly spam its attacks like Entei w/ Sacred Fire because the recoil from Flare Blitz hurts Band Darm quite a bit, especially in conjunction with Rocks or Spikes. Entei also packs E- Speed, which gives it the option to pick off faster threats, something Darm is completely unable to do with a Choice Band. Additionally, Darm is rather frail in comparision to Entei, which makes it easier to revenge kill. Sure, the damage output might seem appealing, but outside of that the Band set is outclassed by Entei. Scarf Darm provides just much more for offensive teams and is still very powerful.
Not to mention that while Darm has a viable (read; outclassed) band set, that puts it in a speed tier that makes it rather easy to revenge, and can actually open up chances for bulky resists like Cune and Salamence if it's intimidate.
I nominate Vaporeon to a place higher than D.
Firstly, I want to quote the words of Shiba:
I doubt how many people who said 'Vaporeon suck' actually use its Wish-Baton Passer set before. Most of them only used wish+heal bell or other sets and found that vaporeon can't wall entei easily as cune and milotic do, then discard it from the team. But ‘Why your team is that bad that only have vapo countering entei?’ How could you say a mon is bad without using its best set ever? I am now #7 in the ladder (ID: koluna) and only used a team with dugtrio after getting 1500 points. I am here to show you guys, not 'How good vaporeon is' but 'it is still worthwhlie to use'.
For a Wish-Baton Passer Vaporeon, I suggest to lower the speed to 145, so that it can pass the wish after Blissey and other common walls. Since vaporeon is quite bulky, it can take hits from some common mons such as Florges, Blissey, Unbreon, Suicune and defog Salamence then pass the wish to its teammates, creating free switches for offesive mons. It is still a quite relyable check for some threatens like Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Houndoom, Kyurem, STAB sub DD Gyarados and espectially Suicune. Suicune is now a S rank mon and how popular suicune is, how a Wish-Baton Passer Vaporeon is more worthwhile to use. Wish-Baton Pass set can just click Baton Pass in front of a common set suicune while for other sets, it is usually quite awkward to decide what to do. This also reduces the chances of free switches into Vaporeon in the opponent side. Another nomination is that Vaporeon set up fodder to set up sweeper that resists water. But most of time Vaporeon can baton pass to the counter of this sweepers, after whatever they did in that turn.
Banded Dugtrio is a fantastic teammate who traps some threats to Vaporeon such as Toxicroak, Heliolisk, Heracross and even a weaken Mega Sceptile (Sucker punch). It also easily kills some water checks like Empoleon, Tentacruel and Dragalge. Usually teammates who can check Mega Sceptile and Zapdos are needed. Volt-switch defog Zapdos becomes more popular is also a good thing for Vaporeon since that set can't really touch Vaporeon.
These replays show how I use my teams. Some other IDs I used are Kolona, loipop, sukkk, pulada, lliilii. You can view more replays by searching them. I hope you guys watch them, and maybe try the Wish-Baton Pass set first before relying me:
Trap accomplice (with YouthBerry and Talon 5):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-332195291
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-346279252
Second match with YouthBerry:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-332208809
Got 1700+ after won Bob:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-356119305
Wish Traper (Wish passers can't pass wish in front of vapo and dugtrio):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-338662108
This is another team I made 3 week later , Eject Button Qwilfish trap and kill entei for calm mind Sableye and spec Florges. I also reached top 30 with this team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-343934261
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-342014733
Besides, I come from China. Please forgive some grammar mistakes I made :D
Firstly, I want to quote the words of Shiba:
The vapo was finally dropped because dodmen thought:(C- to D)Disagree: Though I haven't used Vaporeon as of late, I don't think its completely unviable in the current metagame at all. I think the problem people have when using it is that they try to make Vaporeon some kind of mixed defensive Pokemon, sort of like how people use P2 now. If I had to use Vaporeon it would have to be either max def + bold (even max def + bold doesn't check much, so I think it would be best to just go with spdef most of the time), or max spdef + calm. Besides all that, I think it should stay out of D-Rank because of the reason that its the best Wish-Baton Passer in the tier, and I think that's a big enough niche to be considered at least somewhat viable in the current metagame. Also it has a pretty nice ability in Water Absorb, which completely walls variants of Dual-STAB Gyarados (Protect is on almost every Vap set), which is one of the more prominent drops in recent months.
So who decides a Pokemon is worthwhile to use or not? Players. If a mon helps a player to get a higher position in the ladder, then it is worthwhile to use. Here I don't want to discuss Vapo as a bulky water, but a Wish-Baton Passer, since too many nominations indicate how bad it is as a bulky water.
I doubt how many people who said 'Vaporeon suck' actually use its Wish-Baton Passer set before. Most of them only used wish+heal bell or other sets and found that vaporeon can't wall entei easily as cune and milotic do, then discard it from the team. But ‘Why your team is that bad that only have vapo countering entei?’ How could you say a mon is bad without using its best set ever? I am now #7 in the ladder (ID: koluna) and only used a team with dugtrio after getting 1500 points. I am here to show you guys, not 'How good vaporeon is' but 'it is still worthwhlie to use'.
For a Wish-Baton Passer Vaporeon, I suggest to lower the speed to 145, so that it can pass the wish after Blissey and other common walls. Since vaporeon is quite bulky, it can take hits from some common mons such as Florges, Blissey, Unbreon, Suicune and defog Salamence then pass the wish to its teammates, creating free switches for offesive mons. It is still a quite relyable check for some threatens like Mega-Blastoise, Mega-Houndoom, Kyurem, STAB sub DD Gyarados and espectially Suicune. Suicune is now a S rank mon and how popular suicune is, how a Wish-Baton Passer Vaporeon is more worthwhile to use. Wish-Baton Pass set can just click Baton Pass in front of a common set suicune while for other sets, it is usually quite awkward to decide what to do. This also reduces the chances of free switches into Vaporeon in the opponent side. Another nomination is that Vaporeon set up fodder to set up sweeper that resists water. But most of time Vaporeon can baton pass to the counter of this sweepers, after whatever they did in that turn.
Banded Dugtrio is a fantastic teammate who traps some threats to Vaporeon such as Toxicroak, Heliolisk, Heracross and even a weaken Mega Sceptile (Sucker punch). It also easily kills some water checks like Empoleon, Tentacruel and Dragalge. Usually teammates who can check Mega Sceptile and Zapdos are needed. Volt-switch defog Zapdos becomes more popular is also a good thing for Vaporeon since that set can't really touch Vaporeon.
These replays show how I use my teams. Some other IDs I used are Kolona, loipop, sukkk, pulada, lliilii. You can view more replays by searching them. I hope you guys watch them, and maybe try the Wish-Baton Pass set first before relying me:
Trap accomplice (with YouthBerry and Talon 5):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-332195291
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-346279252
Second match with YouthBerry:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-332208809
Got 1700+ after won Bob:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-356119305
Wish Traper (Wish passers can't pass wish in front of vapo and dugtrio):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-338662108
This is another team I made 3 week later , Eject Button Qwilfish trap and kill entei for calm mind Sableye and spec Florges. I also reached top 30 with this team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-343934261
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-342014733
Besides, I come from China. Please forgive some grammar mistakes I made :D
I don't think you quite grasp the point of why Vaporeon is in D-rank, and constantly seeing people dispute the placing of one of the worst Pokemon in the metagame irks me. Quit wasting your time and everyone else's, and discuss something worthwhile. Hopefully this ends the discussion on Vaporeon.
Sure, Baton Pass and Wish give it a niche. Nobody disputes that. But in terms of a bulky Water-type, that's all it offers. Empoleon has Stealth Rock, Defog, Roar, and some offensive prowess. Suicune is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier; any team that wants to be successful must be capable of defeating it. Tentacruel, Alomomola, M-Blastoise, and Swampert all provide better defensive utility, while not being complete set up fodder for most hazards setters or boosting sweepers. If you run Roar, you forgo Protect, and can no longer reliably heal with Wish. Nevermind how much Toxic slaughters Vaporeon's staying power, where Alomomola at least gets Regenerator. Vaporeon is not a reliable answer to Suicune regardless. You switch in for free, but that's it. If CM Suicune runs literally any other coverage move, you lose. What are you doing back to Suicune, and why should Vaporeon be used over Toxicroak / Heliolisk / etc.? I especially like how hand-picked those replays are. By fully supporting Vaporeon through U-turn and trapping, you must remove threats like Heracross and Toxicroak (Pokemon that switch in on Vaporeon for free) before it becomes useful. You go above and beyond what should be required to support a wall in order to make it look effective. Why?
I want to reply to your post, and all others regarding moving Vaporeon up, with a series of questions. Is your team nearly as successful if Vaporeon gets the same level of support you'd give to something like defensive Swampert? If not, why? What benefit does UU get from not having the worst defensive Water-type in D-Rank? What benefit is there to moving it up? The extent of yammering, pissing, and moaning about Vaporeon not being in a slightly less-worse rank is beyond redundant to the point it's almost spam. Those in charge of the viability ranks, and many prolific members, have said no to moving Vaporeon up to C-Rank. Why must we continue the discussion if anyone worth listening to in UU has repeatedly shot this notion down?
On a slightly different extreme, what seems to be the thought of moving Salamence to the top of A+? With the metagame having gotten so much faster due to Alakazam's presence, as well as Mamoswine being ridiculously good, I've found using the DD set to be nigh impossible. The Defog set is still as good as it ever was, and the Scarf set is still middling. If the combination of the DD set's effectiveness and its usefulness as an offensive or defensive Defogger was what was making it S-rank, then I think the conversation regarding dropping it on the falling effectiveness of the DD set can be had. It's still a monster after a Dragon Dance, and is still one of the most adept Defoggers, but I don't think Salamence is exactly metagame defining anymore, just really good.
Sure, Baton Pass and Wish give it a niche. Nobody disputes that. But in terms of a bulky Water-type, that's all it offers. Empoleon has Stealth Rock, Defog, Roar, and some offensive prowess. Suicune is arguably the best Pokemon in the tier; any team that wants to be successful must be capable of defeating it. Tentacruel, Alomomola, M-Blastoise, and Swampert all provide better defensive utility, while not being complete set up fodder for most hazards setters or boosting sweepers. If you run Roar, you forgo Protect, and can no longer reliably heal with Wish. Nevermind how much Toxic slaughters Vaporeon's staying power, where Alomomola at least gets Regenerator. Vaporeon is not a reliable answer to Suicune regardless. You switch in for free, but that's it. If CM Suicune runs literally any other coverage move, you lose. What are you doing back to Suicune, and why should Vaporeon be used over Toxicroak / Heliolisk / etc.? I especially like how hand-picked those replays are. By fully supporting Vaporeon through U-turn and trapping, you must remove threats like Heracross and Toxicroak (Pokemon that switch in on Vaporeon for free) before it becomes useful. You go above and beyond what should be required to support a wall in order to make it look effective. Why?
I want to reply to your post, and all others regarding moving Vaporeon up, with a series of questions. Is your team nearly as successful if Vaporeon gets the same level of support you'd give to something like defensive Swampert? If not, why? What benefit does UU get from not having the worst defensive Water-type in D-Rank? What benefit is there to moving it up? The extent of yammering, pissing, and moaning about Vaporeon not being in a slightly less-worse rank is beyond redundant to the point it's almost spam. Those in charge of the viability ranks, and many prolific members, have said no to moving Vaporeon up to C-Rank. Why must we continue the discussion if anyone worth listening to in UU has repeatedly shot this notion down?
On a slightly different extreme, what seems to be the thought of moving Salamence to the top of A+? With the metagame having gotten so much faster due to Alakazam's presence, as well as Mamoswine being ridiculously good, I've found using the DD set to be nigh impossible. The Defog set is still as good as it ever was, and the Scarf set is still middling. If the combination of the DD set's effectiveness and its usefulness as an offensive or defensive Defogger was what was making it S-rank, then I think the conversation regarding dropping it on the falling effectiveness of the DD set can be had. It's still a monster after a Dragon Dance, and is still one of the most adept Defoggers, but I don't think Salamence is exactly metagame defining anymore, just really good.
Is it possible to specify thé viable set of C Mons.They are mostly niche Mons and we have to use them carefully, thé viability ranking is here to help people and build like that it's useless to watch it ( only C mon).
Then Mazz i agree with what you said vaporeon is thé worst bulky water in uu , like régular blastoise.Kolona just Wants vap ranked like hikari who wanted blastoise ranked as a small niche.( But of course when it is hikari no problem, we accept it without argument like that )
I really don't know why Seismitoad is C+...
Seismitoad is a very good Pokémon, with access to Stealth Rock, Water Immunity, Rock Resistance, Access to Knock Off, good offensive presence, ik that it is Swampert's Shadow, but it is really viable actually, I really think that it could be at the minimum B-, tbh, B Rank is the perfect rank for it, imo...
Seismitoad is a very good Pokémon, with access to Stealth Rock, Water Immunity, Rock Resistance, Access to Knock Off, good offensive presence, ik that it is Swampert's Shadow, but it is really viable actually, I really think that it could be at the minimum B-, tbh, B Rank is the perfect rank for it, imo...
If you think stoise being ranked was just because of who Hikari is you are wrong, at the time it was considered a good way to switch into entei mainly while also providing a spinner. However vapes niche is even less than that lol, not really gonna go into it cus mazz said everything I would. Hikari had a well developed case for a stoise nom and proved it had some viability but surprise surprise not every person with ladder replays who relies on trapping to make vape even semi useful can present such a strong argument. (No offense towards Kolona its just stupid to act like it was on par with Hikaris old stoise nom)
Last edited:
Thing with Vaporeon is, it's just completely passive, it doesn't even check most of the Fire-type it is supposed nor the water types it is supposed to have a good matchup with, with "Water Absorb". It's an useless piece of shit which takes away the entire momentum of your team or simply is outclassed by other wish passer which do the job massively better (Alomomola, Umbreon, Florges... etc.)
It's fine where it is since it really can't compete with the other clerics, which actually have a niche lmao.
It's fine where it is since it really can't compete with the other clerics, which actually have a niche lmao.
Alright lots of nominations, good to see!
Reuniclus A to A-: disagree with dropping this, although Sableye is a major pain for this thing, its fall to A has already reflected that. Aside from that, it's still extremely threatening as a sweeper and I'd say even slightly underprepared for; we saw a couple games in SPL where Reuniclus straight won. Balance teams lacking Sableye are just as easily pressure by Reuniclus as they were before the Sableye drop, and Sableye isn't exactly "everywhere" (decent usage for sure, but again, that's where Reuniclus's drop to A already came into play). Its defensive utility might have been a little bit understated as well, most of its weaknesses are easily patched up by common partners, and none of its offensive checks can actually switch into it except for Escavalier.
Shaymin B+ to B: Similarly, its fall to B+ has already reflected its lower viability. That being said, it's definitely one of the weaker B+'s and I actually wouldn't mind discussing a Roserade: B to B+ nom.
Aerodactyl B- to B: On the fence but leaning towards yes, would like to see some more discussion.
Qwilfish B- to B: Qwilfish is pretty niche, a very cool Pokemon on the right team, but most of the time a different Water-types would be better. I think people might be seeing B- as a "bad Pokemon" rank but this certainly isn't the case, it's stuff that can be good with the right teammates, but generally are outclassed by something else. Still, I haven't used this in a while (because I switched to Tentacruel on the one team I had it on), so more discussion on this would be cool too.
Vaporeon: yeah I keep having to bring this up like every single week. Like I've said before, Wish Baton Pass is not useful enough to give it a niche, and if you BP your Wish then that probably means your Vaporeon is now at low health. Those replays honestly showed more of Dugtrio and a cool Whimsicott set and less of what Vaporeon could do. I mean just clicking BP into Dugtrio doesn't count as a reason to use it, and I also saw it being complete fodder for a CM Florges which the majority of other Water-types aren't. Again, you're much better off using Alomomola as a Wish passer because it actually counters Entei and Aerodactyl and a whole bunch more, and because of Regenerator which not only lets it switch into these attackers very easily, but also makes it better at healing its teammates because it's not always forced to Protect on whatever's in front of it. Things like Milotic and Slowking can also check most of the special attackers you mentioned, again, without resorting to giving up free turns just to heal themselves. Also Mazz made a good point about the sheer amount of support utilized on those teams, I mean you can probably make usable teams with Shedinja or Jynx but we don't rank those for similar reasons.
**I ask that we refrain from bringing up Vaporeon for a little while.
e: Salamance: S to A+. Don't really agree but it's worth some discussion.
Changes:
Milotic: B- to B. I said I would probably raise this more before, so here it is. Checking/countering so many threats, without being a sitting duck (like Vaporeon !_!) thanks to instant recovery and Haze definitely warrants a raise.
Mega Blastoise: A to A-. Unfortunately didn't see too much discussion on this one.
Accelgor: C- to C, nothing major but yeah, Spikes are really good but hard to fit on weather teams which the reason I'm going through with this.
Also, if you want to see a Pokemon like Blastoise changed then just make a post explaining why instead of making a passive aggressive post at me and the rest of the viability team and the person who nommed it :( I'd like to think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to changes like that.
Reuniclus A to A-: disagree with dropping this, although Sableye is a major pain for this thing, its fall to A has already reflected that. Aside from that, it's still extremely threatening as a sweeper and I'd say even slightly underprepared for; we saw a couple games in SPL where Reuniclus straight won. Balance teams lacking Sableye are just as easily pressure by Reuniclus as they were before the Sableye drop, and Sableye isn't exactly "everywhere" (decent usage for sure, but again, that's where Reuniclus's drop to A already came into play). Its defensive utility might have been a little bit understated as well, most of its weaknesses are easily patched up by common partners, and none of its offensive checks can actually switch into it except for Escavalier.
Shaymin B+ to B: Similarly, its fall to B+ has already reflected its lower viability. That being said, it's definitely one of the weaker B+'s and I actually wouldn't mind discussing a Roserade: B to B+ nom.
Aerodactyl B- to B: On the fence but leaning towards yes, would like to see some more discussion.
Qwilfish B- to B: Qwilfish is pretty niche, a very cool Pokemon on the right team, but most of the time a different Water-types would be better. I think people might be seeing B- as a "bad Pokemon" rank but this certainly isn't the case, it's stuff that can be good with the right teammates, but generally are outclassed by something else. Still, I haven't used this in a while (because I switched to Tentacruel on the one team I had it on), so more discussion on this would be cool too.
Vaporeon: yeah I keep having to bring this up like every single week. Like I've said before, Wish Baton Pass is not useful enough to give it a niche, and if you BP your Wish then that probably means your Vaporeon is now at low health. Those replays honestly showed more of Dugtrio and a cool Whimsicott set and less of what Vaporeon could do. I mean just clicking BP into Dugtrio doesn't count as a reason to use it, and I also saw it being complete fodder for a CM Florges which the majority of other Water-types aren't. Again, you're much better off using Alomomola as a Wish passer because it actually counters Entei and Aerodactyl and a whole bunch more, and because of Regenerator which not only lets it switch into these attackers very easily, but also makes it better at healing its teammates because it's not always forced to Protect on whatever's in front of it. Things like Milotic and Slowking can also check most of the special attackers you mentioned, again, without resorting to giving up free turns just to heal themselves. Also Mazz made a good point about the sheer amount of support utilized on those teams, I mean you can probably make usable teams with Shedinja or Jynx but we don't rank those for similar reasons.
**I ask that we refrain from bringing up Vaporeon for a little while.
e: Salamance: S to A+. Don't really agree but it's worth some discussion.
Changes:
Milotic: B- to B. I said I would probably raise this more before, so here it is. Checking/countering so many threats, without being a sitting duck (like Vaporeon !_!) thanks to instant recovery and Haze definitely warrants a raise.
Mega Blastoise: A to A-. Unfortunately didn't see too much discussion on this one.
Accelgor: C- to C, nothing major but yeah, Spikes are really good but hard to fit on weather teams which the reason I'm going through with this.
Also, if you want to see a Pokemon like Blastoise changed then just make a post explaining why instead of making a passive aggressive post at me and the rest of the viability team and the person who nommed it :( I'd like to think I'm pretty open minded when it comes to changes like that.
Last edited:
dodmen you're awesome D: and it's nice to see I can convince you with my wily charm to consider Aerodactyl in B
Regarding Roserade, I'm surprised it wasn't already B+. It's one of the more viable Grass-type in the first place and brings a nice degree of both offensive and supportive qualities. Here we are with Spikes + Toxic Spikes again and hazard stack becoming more viable it brings very nice support to a team and is really on par with things like Escavalier and Nidoking. Bulky waters are still everywhere, this point is only cemented by the very recent rise of Milotic. However Mega Aerodactyl is as good as ever, Alakazam has returned, and other factors negatively impact it but yes, it'd fit nicely at B+ overall
There's a Crawdaunt nom at the top of the page, so I'll address that too, though it won't be the best explanation. Crawdaunt isn't exactly as good as it was before in UU when it first dropped. If you read the suspect thread you'd see that the same exact argument that was issued, not having any "reliable" counters. I wouldn't say it has a nice standing as offense is pretty much the best playstyle right now and that isn't a favorable metagame for Crawdaunt and there are other Water-types in the tier that maintain the ability to slice through bulky teams while simultaneously pressuring offense better than it (basically Feraligatr and Gyarados to an extent). Remain A-
Seismitoad to B-: I don't agree with at all. Although the meta is infested with water-types, Swampert is better 9.9 times out of ten. It's only ever considered when a team has a weakness to water-types and that should rarely happen when you are building competently. It's cool how it uses them as fodder if Power-up Punch is ran, but it's just as easy for a team using Swampert to run support in the form of Whimsicott, Toxicroak, or even Heliolisk if there's a water weakness and still function successfully. tl;dr you only use Seismitoad if you can't run any other water-types countermeasures on a team and that shouldn't be happening. Stay C+
Finally, I agree with Mazz about the Salamence bit. It's still a massive threat to the metagame, but is it truly as meta defining as Hydreigon, Mega Aerodacty, and Suicune? In my eyes it really isn't, but it'll definitely be the best A+ threat.
Regarding Roserade, I'm surprised it wasn't already B+. It's one of the more viable Grass-type in the first place and brings a nice degree of both offensive and supportive qualities. Here we are with Spikes + Toxic Spikes again and hazard stack becoming more viable it brings very nice support to a team and is really on par with things like Escavalier and Nidoking. Bulky waters are still everywhere, this point is only cemented by the very recent rise of Milotic. However Mega Aerodactyl is as good as ever, Alakazam has returned, and other factors negatively impact it but yes, it'd fit nicely at B+ overall
There's a Crawdaunt nom at the top of the page, so I'll address that too, though it won't be the best explanation. Crawdaunt isn't exactly as good as it was before in UU when it first dropped. If you read the suspect thread you'd see that the same exact argument that was issued, not having any "reliable" counters. I wouldn't say it has a nice standing as offense is pretty much the best playstyle right now and that isn't a favorable metagame for Crawdaunt and there are other Water-types in the tier that maintain the ability to slice through bulky teams while simultaneously pressuring offense better than it (basically Feraligatr and Gyarados to an extent). Remain A-
+6 252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Seismitoad to B-: I don't agree with at all. Although the meta is infested with water-types, Swampert is better 9.9 times out of ten. It's only ever considered when a team has a weakness to water-types and that should rarely happen when you are building competently. It's cool how it uses them as fodder if Power-up Punch is ran, but it's just as easy for a team using Swampert to run support in the form of Whimsicott, Toxicroak, or even Heliolisk if there's a water weakness and still function successfully. tl;dr you only use Seismitoad if you can't run any other water-types countermeasures on a team and that shouldn't be happening. Stay C+
Finally, I agree with Mazz about the Salamence bit. It's still a massive threat to the metagame, but is it truly as meta defining as Hydreigon, Mega Aerodacty, and Suicune? In my eyes it really isn't, but it'll definitely be the best A+ threat.
re: vaporeon
why is no one mentioning the one thing that makes it usable? roar.
baton pass is ass.
re milotic: its good enough for A- imo tbh.
heracross is rising in popularity as a countermeasure to both bulky waters and sableye in one. its a v good pkmn right now tbh. best set imo is swords dance with leftovers which actually doesnt have as much to fear from mence/gyara, since it can really hurt them at +1 and is pretty hard to kill in one hit (except bounce but it can switch out of that while gyara is in the air and gyara has to take a knock/edge before it goes up so...)
why is no one mentioning the one thing that makes it usable? roar.
baton pass is ass.
re milotic: its good enough for A- imo tbh.
heracross is rising in popularity as a countermeasure to both bulky waters and sableye in one. its a v good pkmn right now tbh. best set imo is swords dance with leftovers which actually doesnt have as much to fear from mence/gyara, since it can really hurt them at +1 and is pretty hard to kill in one hit (except bounce but it can switch out of that while gyara is in the air and gyara has to take a knock/edge before it goes up so...)
Last edited:
"Aerodactyl B- to B: On the fence but leaning towards yes, would like to see some more discussion."
I think it would be fair to put Aerodactyl at B considering that azelf and frosslass will still be ranked above it. At times, I feel that Aerodactyl has a better place on HO than azelf because of it's massive speed stat. It can come across other HO teams and taunt their lead giving your team the momentum. If you have the lead advantage over another HO team, it will increase your chances of winning that game by a lot. Something I do not like about Aerodactyl, however, is its ability to be taken out by one scald. This is especially annoying against lead empoleon users because you have to taunt fearing the rocks and they scald instead and get the burn. One other thing I don't like is that Aerodactyl is that it usually ins't taking any lives. Its job is to get up rocks and die, but frosslass and azelf can usually take out a pokemon or at least provide some offensive presence. Yes you can fire blast a forretress, but usually players can see that coming.
In conclusion, Aerodactyl does an amazing job of getting up hazards without letting it's opponent get theirs up, but that's all it does. This is not a bad attribute. Aerodactyl is probably the most consistent rocker in the meta-game. Because Aerodactyl has one job, and does it better than other pokemon (like azelf), I believe a rise to B rank would be fitting.
I think it would be fair to put Aerodactyl at B considering that azelf and frosslass will still be ranked above it. At times, I feel that Aerodactyl has a better place on HO than azelf because of it's massive speed stat. It can come across other HO teams and taunt their lead giving your team the momentum. If you have the lead advantage over another HO team, it will increase your chances of winning that game by a lot. Something I do not like about Aerodactyl, however, is its ability to be taken out by one scald. This is especially annoying against lead empoleon users because you have to taunt fearing the rocks and they scald instead and get the burn. One other thing I don't like is that Aerodactyl is that it usually ins't taking any lives. Its job is to get up rocks and die, but frosslass and azelf can usually take out a pokemon or at least provide some offensive presence. Yes you can fire blast a forretress, but usually players can see that coming.
In conclusion, Aerodactyl does an amazing job of getting up hazards without letting it's opponent get theirs up, but that's all it does. This is not a bad attribute. Aerodactyl is probably the most consistent rocker in the meta-game. Because Aerodactyl has one job, and does it better than other pokemon (like azelf), I believe a rise to B rank would be fitting.
Threw
cohiba
I guess my first post didn't have Magic's wily charm :[
I think it would be strange to move Roserade up, since it's largely gotten worse with the recent drops. Alakazam does Alakazam things, and every offensive Gyarados set (unless Waterfall/EQ??) with Lum straight up beats it at full because Leaf Storm doesn't OHKO, whereas Chesnaught is a Spiker that walls it completely and is actually really annoying for certain Alakazam sets, especially three attacks Psyshock. Roserade still has a poor matchup against many of the most commonly used Pokemon according to the most recent usage stats. It really is a good Grass-type though - offense doesn't have anything to switch into it easily other than Crobat and it has a godly matchup against Fairy (read: not Blissey) stall. And, obviously, it has plenty of utility that Chesnaught lacks. It's not common to have something that you can switch into a Scald almost as comfortably as a Water Absorb or Dry Skin user. I guess I'm undecided on it.
Something that's gotten better with the drops, however, is Nidoking. Thunderbolt for Gyarados is phenomenal, and the 84 Defense EVs that save Alakazam from an Entei Extreme Speed still don't save it from Nidoking's Sucker Punch. And I think the classic Sludge/EP/IB/Superpower set is super underrated for how much it single-handedly decimates common stall builds - i.e., stuff like Tangrowth, FatMence, Megas Aggron and Steelix, Blissey, Florges...the list goes on. I could potentially see it moving up even with Nidoqueen at A- for the above reasons and because its superior Speed and ability to run a mixed set is worth at least as much as Nidoqueen's utility and defensive proficiency in the current metagame.
I think it would be strange to move Roserade up, since it's largely gotten worse with the recent drops. Alakazam does Alakazam things, and every offensive Gyarados set (unless Waterfall/EQ??) with Lum straight up beats it at full because Leaf Storm doesn't OHKO, whereas Chesnaught is a Spiker that walls it completely and is actually really annoying for certain Alakazam sets, especially three attacks Psyshock. Roserade still has a poor matchup against many of the most commonly used Pokemon according to the most recent usage stats. It really is a good Grass-type though - offense doesn't have anything to switch into it easily other than Crobat and it has a godly matchup against Fairy (read: not Blissey) stall. And, obviously, it has plenty of utility that Chesnaught lacks. It's not common to have something that you can switch into a Scald almost as comfortably as a Water Absorb or Dry Skin user. I guess I'm undecided on it.
Something that's gotten better with the drops, however, is Nidoking. Thunderbolt for Gyarados is phenomenal, and the 84 Defense EVs that save Alakazam from an Entei Extreme Speed still don't save it from Nidoking's Sucker Punch. And I think the classic Sludge/EP/IB/Superpower set is super underrated for how much it single-handedly decimates common stall builds - i.e., stuff like Tangrowth, FatMence, Megas Aggron and Steelix, Blissey, Florges...the list goes on. I could potentially see it moving up even with Nidoqueen at A- for the above reasons and because its superior Speed and ability to run a mixed set is worth at least as much as Nidoqueen's utility and defensive proficiency in the current metagame.
Salamence is one of the most defining Pokemon in ORAS UU: the Bulky Offense tier.
It has no business going down to A+. Until you can show me one Pokemon that sets up as efficiently as Mence, whilst have the versatility to fit into any BO team through its multiple sets, I will fight this one u_u
It has no business going down to A+. Until you can show me one Pokemon that sets up as efficiently as Mence, whilst have the versatility to fit into any BO team through its multiple sets, I will fight this one u_u
Really disagree with Salamence dropping. Its versatility alone allows it to fit on just about any type of team. It's not uncommon at all to see DD Mence, or even Scarfed Mence being used on HO. Its specially offensive Defog set is probably probably the most common on Bulky Offense, and for good reason. With all of the role compression it has to offer in being a check to fire, fighting, ground, and offering hazard control, it's pretty easy to fit. It's also one of the only defoggers in the tier that is able to run an offensive set as efficiently and consistently as it does. Bulky variants of Mence are pretty commonly seen on more defensive minded teams as well. See pif and dodmen's stall team for example.
DD Mence is still one of the most threatening sweepers you can have in front of you and a chance at setting up a DD is all it needs to be able to keep up with this fast paced metagame. It also has some of the best efficiency in being able to set up thanks to its typing and access to Intimidate. The only other comparable mon that has as much ease at finding setup opportunity is Gyarados, but its 81 base speed stops it from being able to outspeed things like MAero and Adamant Mega Swampert under the rain after a DD, which Mence is very well capable of. I think Salamence is definitely still metagame defining and deserves its current spot at S.
DD Mence is still one of the most threatening sweepers you can have in front of you and a chance at setting up a DD is all it needs to be able to keep up with this fast paced metagame. It also has some of the best efficiency in being able to set up thanks to its typing and access to Intimidate. The only other comparable mon that has as much ease at finding setup opportunity is Gyarados, but its 81 base speed stops it from being able to outspeed things like MAero and Adamant Mega Swampert under the rain after a DD, which Mence is very well capable of. I think Salamence is definitely still metagame defining and deserves its current spot at S.
Milotic: i have been using Milotic a lot recently, since its 100% win SPL rate, and Milotic deserves a rise to B+ but not more than that. it's a great bulky wall, very reliable, Marvel Scale really helps against teams with Entei, boosting defenses and such. You barely need SpDef investment for Milotic to check the likes of LO Zam, Specs Garde, Specs Chandy and others powerful wallbreakers. B -> B+
Accelgor: I guess a rise wouldn't hurt. Spikes are really good rn altho I'd use Froslass instead most of the time.
Mega-Blastoise: on the fence. I think whenever I build full BO, Mega Blastoise shows up as the best choice as a spinner, yk. He is bulky af, hits really hard, and when it is at full HP, it wins 1v1 most of the time. I know the lack of recovery, vulnerability to every hazard, unreliability against the likes of Entei, but that doesn't really matter that much on the team archetype M-Toise fills in. Idk I rather drop it inside its own A- rank then dropping it to B+
Salamence: ?_? (almost) every mon from S to C dies to some kind of salamence lol am i missing smth ?_?
Seismitoad: sorry you don't use Seismitoad as a counter water measure, you use Seismitoad to setup Stealth Rocks in front of any bulky water that relies on Scald to do damage, without having to worry about burns, unlike with Swampert. Whenever you build around Seismitoad, just like with pert, you have to bring something else to check/counter opposing water types. You ain't countering Suicune without PuP, but Seismitoad checks most of things Pert does while also better checking opposing Swampert, Tentacruel or Empoleon much better. Swampert have better bulk and overall it is more consistent but I support Seismitoad rise from C+ -> B- as I think he fills some good niches that Pert doesn't.
---
btw, have we moved Tentacruel from A- or smth? because otherwise I'd ask Tentacruel to be moved to A-. Honestly Tentacruel is my favourite spinner to use rn, really realible, offering some good bulk, nice speed tier, and great movepool. Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes/Scald/filler being Haze, Sludge Wave, Acid Spray, Knock Off, etc. really good option for balance builds, have great synergy with top tier threats like Hydreigon, Mega Aerodactyl, Alakzam, Krookodile, among others. Idk it sounds a bit better than the rest of the B+ rank so it would be nice to see some discussion
Accelgor: I guess a rise wouldn't hurt. Spikes are really good rn altho I'd use Froslass instead most of the time.
Mega-Blastoise: on the fence. I think whenever I build full BO, Mega Blastoise shows up as the best choice as a spinner, yk. He is bulky af, hits really hard, and when it is at full HP, it wins 1v1 most of the time. I know the lack of recovery, vulnerability to every hazard, unreliability against the likes of Entei, but that doesn't really matter that much on the team archetype M-Toise fills in. Idk I rather drop it inside its own A- rank then dropping it to B+
Salamence: ?_? (almost) every mon from S to C dies to some kind of salamence lol am i missing smth ?_?
Seismitoad: sorry you don't use Seismitoad as a counter water measure, you use Seismitoad to setup Stealth Rocks in front of any bulky water that relies on Scald to do damage, without having to worry about burns, unlike with Swampert. Whenever you build around Seismitoad, just like with pert, you have to bring something else to check/counter opposing water types. You ain't countering Suicune without PuP, but Seismitoad checks most of things Pert does while also better checking opposing Swampert, Tentacruel or Empoleon much better. Swampert have better bulk and overall it is more consistent but I support Seismitoad rise from C+ -> B- as I think he fills some good niches that Pert doesn't.
---
btw, have we moved Tentacruel from A- or smth? because otherwise I'd ask Tentacruel to be moved to A-. Honestly Tentacruel is my favourite spinner to use rn, really realible, offering some good bulk, nice speed tier, and great movepool. Rapid Spin/Toxic Spikes/Scald/filler being Haze, Sludge Wave, Acid Spray, Knock Off, etc. really good option for balance builds, have great synergy with top tier threats like Hydreigon, Mega Aerodactyl, Alakzam, Krookodile, among others. Idk it sounds a bit better than the rest of the B+ rank so it would be nice to see some discussion
So I have a nom of my own, what do you guys think of Zapdos to A+?
Zapdos has definitely picked up in viability in the past few months imho, especially with the popularity of the Bulky Offense playstyle, it can be considered a centerpiece for a lot of these teams with its excellent bulk/typing, Speed tier sitting at 100 base, and ability to go offensive, specially defensive, OR physically defensive. With these qualities, as well as access to Defog, it can fill a variety of roles on any kind of team, not just Bulky Offense. Not to mention that it gained Static as an ability in the past month for more offensive sets, so it has 2 pretty great abilities, just depending on the set you're using! It's also obviously one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier with the usage for March being released, as it was only behind Salamence as one of the most used Pokemon in the tier here:
| 1 | Salamence | 18.638% |
| 2 | Zapdos | 15.386% |
| 3 | Florges | 15.089% |
I don't really want to fluff this post much, just hitting on key points (usage mostly) but yeah, I think the qualities warrant a rise of Zapdos to A+
Zapdos has definitely picked up in viability in the past few months imho, especially with the popularity of the Bulky Offense playstyle, it can be considered a centerpiece for a lot of these teams with its excellent bulk/typing, Speed tier sitting at 100 base, and ability to go offensive, specially defensive, OR physically defensive. With these qualities, as well as access to Defog, it can fill a variety of roles on any kind of team, not just Bulky Offense. Not to mention that it gained Static as an ability in the past month for more offensive sets, so it has 2 pretty great abilities, just depending on the set you're using! It's also obviously one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier with the usage for March being released, as it was only behind Salamence as one of the most used Pokemon in the tier here:
| 1 | Salamence | 18.638% |
| 2 | Zapdos | 15.386% |
| 3 | Florges | 15.089% |
I don't really want to fluff this post much, just hitting on key points (usage mostly) but yeah, I think the qualities warrant a rise of Zapdos to A+
I would like to highlight on your point of usage, since it's been stressed countless times over the years by Smogon's upper staff that usage does not equal a Pokemon being good or viable (the biggest example would be Deo-D the last two generations), but I find myself agreeing with the sentiment otherwise. Barring my lack of experience the last month or so (RNG was fucking me so hard I quit Smogon for a long while because it was that frustrating), Zapdos as an offensive Pokemon has been mostly unexplored, while its defensive prowess has kept it as one of the best Pokemon in the tier already. Add good offensive sets (I know they're out there, Zapdos has the moveset and stat spread for them) and I'd fully support Zapdos moving to A+.
Mence should not drop. Its versatility is absurd, and if you guess wrong when facing one, it can cost you the match. It can run dd, fat, scarf, special, mix, and more that I probably missed, and pull most of them off flawlessly. It should absolutely stay in S.
Vaporeon should just stay in D, the only thing it really offers is roar and baton pass, which are just simply not good enough of niches to justify usage on a serious team when Milotic, Slowking, and Alomomola are much better at being a bully water tbh.
How is Zapdos not already A+? I find the offensive set is amazing right now, since a lot of people expect a bulkier defog, which is far from its only niche lol. Move it up.
Vaporeon should just stay in D, the only thing it really offers is roar and baton pass, which are just simply not good enough of niches to justify usage on a serious team when Milotic, Slowking, and Alomomola are much better at being a bully water tbh.
How is Zapdos not already A+? I find the offensive set is amazing right now, since a lot of people expect a bulkier defog, which is far from its only niche lol. Move it up.
I may not be the most versed uu player, but I know a thing or two about general VR rules and I thought that one of the rules about using usage in an argument was fine as long as you didn't base your entire argument around them? Wait, just found a direct quote about this:
With that small statement aside, I really agree with a zapdos rise. It is easily one of the most splashable mons in the tier from my experience. I use it on almost every single build that I use bar like balls to the wall HO builds without hazard control (which don't really exist in high-level matches, at least the recent spl games i've seen). It can check a myriad of threats in the tier, and considering that almost all zapdos (that I've seen) run defensive sets, offensive zapdos can easily surprise people and catch them off-guard. It has reliable recovery, an immunity to eq, checks the omnipresent waters (can even run hp grass for pert if it wants to), and is bulky enough to shrug off most hits. All in all I think that zapdos is rly good rn and most certainly deserves a raise.
- Status