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OU Combinations
- Thread starter Xaqwais
- Start date
Yeah, I guess you're right. Maybe add in Blissey? Could work, as it still has even more assurance against Heatran and things like Petraya Empoleon. Jirachi can switch in on a predicted explosion, and Jirachi can Body Slam for the 60% rate for paralysis on the switch in.
Well, not really. If Heatran was to outspeed Salamence to KO with Dragon Pulse, he'd have to be scarfed. If he uses Dragon Pulse while holding the scarf, switch to Jirachi, then Thunder Wave / Body Salm / whatever you need to do, and problem solved. Non-scarfed ones are creamed by a Salamence EQ, so no worry there (In sum, it just takes prediction skills.)xaqwais said:
Besides, combos of two Pokemon aren't meant to be able to take on all of the metagame. They're meant to be able to take out, stall, or works together to keep the possibility of winning a reality.
Substitute Tyranitar + Gyarados
Why? Pokemon that like to think they are "gyarados counters" like Porygon 2 and Cresselia are pretty much set-up fodder for substitute tyranitar who can switch in and lol at they're pathetically weak bolt-beams and set up substitute with near impunity (cresselia can outspeed ttar and t-wave it but whatever. P-2 is pretty much sub-tar's bitch). Tyranitar also checks starmie, latias, zapdos and celebi who all give Gyarados some trouble.
Inversely, Gyarados resists fighting/ground/steel, and helps tyranitar out alot with things like Scizor and Lucario.
Why? Pokemon that like to think they are "gyarados counters" like Porygon 2 and Cresselia are pretty much set-up fodder for substitute tyranitar who can switch in and lol at they're pathetically weak bolt-beams and set up substitute with near impunity (cresselia can outspeed ttar and t-wave it but whatever. P-2 is pretty much sub-tar's bitch). Tyranitar also checks starmie, latias, zapdos and celebi who all give Gyarados some trouble.
Inversely, Gyarados resists fighting/ground/steel, and helps tyranitar out alot with things like Scizor and Lucario.
I was about to post GyaraTar too, lol. The Tyranitar doesn't have to be a Substitute one. Choice Banded Tyranitar is also useful. Not only can it get some OHKOs that Substituting ones can't, it can use Pursuit on some of Gyarados's counters or checks. For example, Banded Pursuit is a guaranteed OHKO on Jolteon.
Here's my opinion regarding TTar v. gyara-checks/counters:
Porygon-2: Tyraniboah uses this as set up fodder, porygon 2 is tyraniboah's bitch. CB ttar cannot kill p-2 with pursuit, and p-2 is generally heavily ev'd for physical defense.
Celebi: Either way, Celebi is more likely to stay in and Grass Knot than flee. With Celebi's usual investment into physical defense, Tyraniboah's Dark Pulse does very heavy damage. Either way, neither loses to Celebi, but neither can take it down without taking heavy damage from grass knot.
Rotom-A: Rotom A stays in on TTar 80%+ time. It always stays in to set up reflect or w-o-w. Both of these will screw over CB ttar. Tyraniboah on the other hand will destroy it with Dark Pulse.
Jolteon: A Specs Jolt locked into Thunderbolt is not going to run, which means it'll be leaving a huge dent on CB ttar before it goes down. Boah on the other hand can still manage to use its substitute strategy thanks to leftovers. If you got Focus Punch, of course you have the advantage. A specs Jolt locked into Shadowball/hp ice is toast facing either ttar, either giving boah a free sub with which to reek havoc, or getting pursuited to death (honestly though getting locked into pursuit sucks).
Against Sub-Pass Jolt, Boah is unquestionably superior though, setting up subs with impunity against it's weak bolt-beams that can't even break sub. At the very worst case scenario (boah switches in on jolt's sub), it can set up its own sub as jolteon passes, then break the enemy's sub as they break boah's. CB ttar on the other hand, can't touch Jolteon at all as Baton Pass negates pursuit. :/
Against Zapdos-- Boah's Ice Beam hurts Zappy a lot while most zappy can't break substitute with any of its attacks. The only problem is status, though Roost + 3 attack Zapdos is set-up fodder for Boah. CB tar can only rely on the 70% acc. Stone Edge, though this can 1hko zappy. Which one is better depends a bit on Zapdos' set.
Latias-- Ok, CB is definitely better here.
Starmie-- I wouldn't advise trying to counter starmie with Tyranitar, no matter which one it is. In a 1 on 1 though, it's like Celebi-- Starmie probably won't run fearing pursuit, and is 1hko'd by any dark attack from any ttar-- problem is that it will always be leaving a huge dent on ttar regardless of its set.
Gengar-- Without a doubt, the best TTar to have here is an extremely special defensive bulk CB ttar. Standard CB tar and Boah are both 1hko'd by LO focus blast. Gengar loses to either without LO though.
Cresselia-- Both destroy cresselia but are likely to eat a thunder-wave. Boah handles reflect/psycho-shift versions better but has some minor issues with Calm Mind versions (calm mind cress still loses to boah the vast majority of the time).
There's some others but yeah, both sets are very useful, mostly because Gyarados' biggest enemies are frail special attackers, often with a dark weakness making TTar an obvious answer.
Boah handles P-2 and Rotom much better, but the same can be said about CB ttar in regards to Latias in particular, and Zapdos too generally. Of course, both being tyranitar, Boah can still kill latias most of the time and handles zappy pretty well too, while CB ttar obviously has the potential to put P-2 and Rotom in pain.
Picking for your team is of course important. If you have a CB scizor on your team of course Boah becomes more attractive, while if you have a Sub-Heatran CBtar will bring a better balance.
Porygon-2: Tyraniboah uses this as set up fodder, porygon 2 is tyraniboah's bitch. CB ttar cannot kill p-2 with pursuit, and p-2 is generally heavily ev'd for physical defense.
Celebi: Either way, Celebi is more likely to stay in and Grass Knot than flee. With Celebi's usual investment into physical defense, Tyraniboah's Dark Pulse does very heavy damage. Either way, neither loses to Celebi, but neither can take it down without taking heavy damage from grass knot.
Rotom-A: Rotom A stays in on TTar 80%+ time. It always stays in to set up reflect or w-o-w. Both of these will screw over CB ttar. Tyraniboah on the other hand will destroy it with Dark Pulse.
Jolteon: A Specs Jolt locked into Thunderbolt is not going to run, which means it'll be leaving a huge dent on CB ttar before it goes down. Boah on the other hand can still manage to use its substitute strategy thanks to leftovers. If you got Focus Punch, of course you have the advantage. A specs Jolt locked into Shadowball/hp ice is toast facing either ttar, either giving boah a free sub with which to reek havoc, or getting pursuited to death (honestly though getting locked into pursuit sucks).
Against Sub-Pass Jolt, Boah is unquestionably superior though, setting up subs with impunity against it's weak bolt-beams that can't even break sub. At the very worst case scenario (boah switches in on jolt's sub), it can set up its own sub as jolteon passes, then break the enemy's sub as they break boah's. CB ttar on the other hand, can't touch Jolteon at all as Baton Pass negates pursuit. :/
Against Zapdos-- Boah's Ice Beam hurts Zappy a lot while most zappy can't break substitute with any of its attacks. The only problem is status, though Roost + 3 attack Zapdos is set-up fodder for Boah. CB tar can only rely on the 70% acc. Stone Edge, though this can 1hko zappy. Which one is better depends a bit on Zapdos' set.
Latias-- Ok, CB is definitely better here.
Starmie-- I wouldn't advise trying to counter starmie with Tyranitar, no matter which one it is. In a 1 on 1 though, it's like Celebi-- Starmie probably won't run fearing pursuit, and is 1hko'd by any dark attack from any ttar-- problem is that it will always be leaving a huge dent on ttar regardless of its set.
Gengar-- Without a doubt, the best TTar to have here is an extremely special defensive bulk CB ttar. Standard CB tar and Boah are both 1hko'd by LO focus blast. Gengar loses to either without LO though.
Cresselia-- Both destroy cresselia but are likely to eat a thunder-wave. Boah handles reflect/psycho-shift versions better but has some minor issues with Calm Mind versions (calm mind cress still loses to boah the vast majority of the time).
There's some others but yeah, both sets are very useful, mostly because Gyarados' biggest enemies are frail special attackers, often with a dark weakness making TTar an obvious answer.
Boah handles P-2 and Rotom much better, but the same can be said about CB ttar in regards to Latias in particular, and Zapdos too generally. Of course, both being tyranitar, Boah can still kill latias most of the time and handles zappy pretty well too, while CB ttar obviously has the potential to put P-2 and Rotom in pain.
Picking for your team is of course important. If you have a CB scizor on your team of course Boah becomes more attractive, while if you have a Sub-Heatran CBtar will bring a better balance.
Well, the Franklin's set has only 1 damaging move on Heatran, and DMeteor is NFE. If you knew the Salamence's moveset, you wouldn't use Dragon Pulse, and you wouldn't have to be scarfed to kill Mence. And if you see Jirachi-Salamence, experienced players might predict a switch to the other one.
I agree on the part of two pokemon should counter everything, but with a threat as prevalant as Heatran, one should have a way to accommodate it. And my post was only referring to Franklin's set. The combo is very solid (that's why I mentioned it in the first post).
Yeah, I assumed franklin was running Mix-mence rather than a bulkier varient of Salamence.xaqwais said:
You would have to be scarfed if you didn't want to be OHKOed by EQ first, that is, if Salamence had it.
Just because experienced players know when to predict a switch doesn't mean you can't go out on a limb and try to predict his predictions.
Anyway, I'd like to post a combo that works wonders, especially against stall.
Salamence + Gyarados + Swampert
Mix-mece + Bulky Gyara + any defensive set.
(will ammend with sets and pix later tonight.)
Here's how it works: Mix-mence is one of the best stall breakers, and is, overall, one of the best mixed sweepers in the game, capable of taking out a variety of threats. Bulky-gyara sets up on a Pokemon trying to status it (with help from Taunt.) Swampert is what really makes this combo works. Swampert resists Rock attacks, which Gyara and Mence are both weak to. He also is immune to Electric, which helps back up Gyarados.
I've got a question to pose to others: How do you involve combos in team building? For example, if I want to make a kick-butt team, should I put together two or three combos that make good synergy with one another or what?
I usually put in a combo, and build around it. If it's a defensive combo, I'll get some sweepers. If it's sweepers, than I would add some walls. If it requires wish support, than wish support would be added. You get the idea. :P
I have used this combination in my team with great sucess. Although all they were CBanders. Flygon covers to Gyara of Celebi for example and Scizor covers to Flygon of Ice attacks, also Gyara and Flygon cover to Scizor of Fire attacks.
Empoleon @ Life Orb
24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest
~ Surf / Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam
~ Grass Knot
~ Agility
Breloom@ Toxic Orb
Poison Heal
44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
Adament
~ Substitute
~ Seed Bomb
~ Focus Punch
~ Spore / Leech Seed
I have found empoleon to be a very effective pokemon against offensive teams or teams lacking a solid special wall. Agility on the switch, and when vaporeon/blissey/lanturn show up send in breloom to bring the pain. If blissey and friends decide to stay in and attack your breloom they will be heavily damaged by seed bomb. If your opponent has a celebi try to put it to sleep so you can safely bring in a pursuiter/u-turner. Thoughts?
Vaporeon and Blissey have a decent chance of having Ice Beam, which could screw this strategy if your opponent predicts a Breloom switching in. But that's unlikely, especially if your opponent does not know your full team, so it works fine.BLISSEYHATER said:
Another combo I like:
Gengar + Lucario
Gengar is a huge target of Pursuit. So you surrender your Gengar, but most pursuiters have Choice Items, locking them into pursuit. Send Lucario in (who x4 resists Dark,) SD up, and the potential of sweeping an entire team becomes real.
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
seems like a fairly mediocre strategy. look at a pursuit user like weavile, you sacrifice gengar, then take the risk of a life orbed brick break to the face.
I like SpecsLatias moreso that Gengar since it deals higher immediate damage, and they both draw in Scizor and Tyranitar anyways, so you might as well try to deal the highest amount of damage possible before you get smacked by Pursuit.
You can pretty much use anything that would bait pursuits and then Lucario/Empoleon can come in and set up. And I agree with flash with the preference of using Latias, but thats just a preference.
Latias is okay, but I greatly prefer it as a bulky wish variant rather than a Specs variant to be honest. Synergy is another thing I'm huge on, and Latias just doesn't fit :3
There's also just something so awesome about Gengar; it's like awesomeness follows him around. Maybe it's just Explosion that can deal with Blissey?
There's also just something so awesome about Gengar; it's like awesomeness follows him around. Maybe it's just Explosion that can deal with Blissey?
Like ellington said, Weavile often carry Choice Bands, and Weavile isn't THAT common right now due to all the Scizor. After an SD, ExtremeSpeed is dealing a lot of damage, so Weavile is not a concern.porky said:
SD Lucario + CB Scizor: CB Scizor U-Turns, weakening Rotom-A, Zapdos, and Gyarados to the point where Lucario can beat them.
CB Tyranitar + DD Gyarados: Gyarados has problems with Celebi, Rotom-A, Zapdos, etc. so you can Crunch them into oblivion.
CB Tyranitar + Scarf Flygon: Pretty simple, same thing, except you need speed on your Tyranitar so you can 2HKO Skarmory with Stone Edge.
CB Tyranitar + any special attacker: They will probably send in Blissey, so this allows you to catch her with Pursuit. SpecsJolt works nicely with this.
Gyarados + SpecsJolt: Works wonders, Baton Pass is key here, allowing you to evade Tyranitar's wrath as it switches in, as you send in Gyarados for the KO with Waterfall.
Rock Polish Camerupt + SubAgility Empoleon: Camerupt and Empoleon have nice synergy, the latter taking on Flamethrower + Toxic variants of Blissey, while the former handles Thunder Wave + Seismic Toss. Camerupt needs to be mixed so it can 2HKO Blissey with Earthquake, and OHKO bulky waters that stop Grass Knot-less Empoleon's sweep with Explosion.
SD Gliscor + SubAgility Empoleon: Sure, you can use them defensively, but they also work wonders offensively. If you aren't packing Ice Beam, Celebi is going to slow you down, and SD Gliscor can set up on her.
SubCM Latias + SD Lucario: This is my favorite. Tyranitar wants to ruin your sweep with Crunch/Pursuit? Send in Lucario for a free SD.
CB Tyranitar + Scarf Infernape: Abuse U-Turn with Infernape until you find out what your opponent is packing. You can trap their Latias with Tyranitar if they send it in, easily OHKOing with Crunch or Pursuit.
Specs Starmie + Rapid Spin Donphan: Abuse Hydro Pump or Surf with Starmie, doing massive damage to any anti-spinner(2HKOing them all). Once they have been eliminated, you can send in Donphan to spin away rocks.
There are many others, but I feel like they have been covered(some of these have too).
EDIT: Notice, many combos involved the bulkiest, strongest Pursuit user-Tyranitar.
CB Tyranitar + DD Gyarados: Gyarados has problems with Celebi, Rotom-A, Zapdos, etc. so you can Crunch them into oblivion.
CB Tyranitar + Scarf Flygon: Pretty simple, same thing, except you need speed on your Tyranitar so you can 2HKO Skarmory with Stone Edge.
CB Tyranitar + any special attacker: They will probably send in Blissey, so this allows you to catch her with Pursuit. SpecsJolt works nicely with this.
Gyarados + SpecsJolt: Works wonders, Baton Pass is key here, allowing you to evade Tyranitar's wrath as it switches in, as you send in Gyarados for the KO with Waterfall.
Rock Polish Camerupt + SubAgility Empoleon: Camerupt and Empoleon have nice synergy, the latter taking on Flamethrower + Toxic variants of Blissey, while the former handles Thunder Wave + Seismic Toss. Camerupt needs to be mixed so it can 2HKO Blissey with Earthquake, and OHKO bulky waters that stop Grass Knot-less Empoleon's sweep with Explosion.
SD Gliscor + SubAgility Empoleon: Sure, you can use them defensively, but they also work wonders offensively. If you aren't packing Ice Beam, Celebi is going to slow you down, and SD Gliscor can set up on her.
SubCM Latias + SD Lucario: This is my favorite. Tyranitar wants to ruin your sweep with Crunch/Pursuit? Send in Lucario for a free SD.
CB Tyranitar + Scarf Infernape: Abuse U-Turn with Infernape until you find out what your opponent is packing. You can trap their Latias with Tyranitar if they send it in, easily OHKOing with Crunch or Pursuit.
Specs Starmie + Rapid Spin Donphan: Abuse Hydro Pump or Surf with Starmie, doing massive damage to any anti-spinner(2HKOing them all). Once they have been eliminated, you can send in Donphan to spin away rocks.
There are many others, but I feel like they have been covered(some of these have too).
EDIT: Notice, many combos involved the bulkiest, strongest Pursuit user-Tyranitar.
Gyarados is unnecessary in this combo, as just Flygon and Scizor resist all types but Flying and Water. Water could warrant Vaporeon or Empoleon, but as a combo just GonZor is sufficient. In my experience, CB Scizor and Scarf Flygon are excellent, U-turning to each other taking advantage of their resists.+
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I have used this combination in my team with great sucess. Although all they were CBanders. Flygon covers to Gyara of Celebi for example and Scizor covers to Flygon of Ice attacks, also Gyara and Flygon cover to Scizor of Fire attacks.
Interestingly enough, that was exactly what I named my thread for ^_^
And Salamence/Jirachi is probably one of the single best combos in the game, period. They resist every single type (as most Dragon/Steel combos do) and have great synergies in other respects, particularly using Jirachi's Body Slam (which can paralyze Tran on the switch-in, letting you switch to Mence on the Fire Blast and finish it with EQ.) I've used that combo, and I'm glad Franklin posted it and went into such glorious detail.
Just in case I haven't made clear my devotedness to the topic of combos, I'll respond to this too. Typically, I take three effective combos and slap 'em together. It's not that simple- you need one Pokemon in one combo to be an effective lead, and you also need effective counters to common threats. Not to self-promote, but my latest RMT is an example of this (although far from perfect.) You also need a balance between physical and special, between mixed wallbreaker and straight up sweeper, and between setupper and choiced.
And this all goes double for offense teams.
Great thread. I honestly don't think this topic can be brought up enough.
Lucario + Salamence
Jirachi + MixMence + Tyranitar
Latias + Magnezone
all of those are great combos.
The first usually uses a mixmence and SD Luke, mix is early game, luke comes in and sweeps.
Second is a rather useful set up to get either a Salamence or Jirachi sweep depdning on how you play. Tyranitar pursuits Celebi/Blissey/Cress/Rotom (all pokemon who can hinder the sweep.)
Last is failr obvious. Magnzone kills all the steels, Latias just comes in and cleans up.
Jirachi + MixMence + Tyranitar
Latias + Magnezone
all of those are great combos.
The first usually uses a mixmence and SD Luke, mix is early game, luke comes in and sweeps.
Second is a rather useful set up to get either a Salamence or Jirachi sweep depdning on how you play. Tyranitar pursuits Celebi/Blissey/Cress/Rotom (all pokemon who can hinder the sweep.)
Last is failr obvious. Magnzone kills all the steels, Latias just comes in and cleans up.
Roserade+SubCM Jirachi/SubPetaya Empoleon
Love this combo, though its a pretty one sided affair. Roserade sets up those T-Spikes, then your special sweeper of choice gets the sweep. Empoleon is not as good because Blissey it might not be able to kill Blissey even with Toxic Spikes up, but Jirachi has issues with some others like Heatran, and it needs more time to set up. And is slower.
But I've found it can be pretty darn efficient.
Love this combo, though its a pretty one sided affair. Roserade sets up those T-Spikes, then your special sweeper of choice gets the sweep. Empoleon is not as good because Blissey it might not be able to kill Blissey even with Toxic Spikes up, but Jirachi has issues with some others like Heatran, and it needs more time to set up. And is slower.
But I've found it can be pretty darn efficient.
Empoleon+Mence/Nite
Soo Awesome lol. With the alli/petya on empoleon and both covering each other weaknesses incredibly well (Empoleon 4x Ice resist 2x Rock resist and Mence Immunity Ground and resistance to fighting.) Alternating between them can ruin teams especially if your opponent over predicts say using a ice move on Empoleon thinkin ull go to Mence where actually you stay and Alli and sub down to your petya. Awesome especially if the mence is Specs or Band taking out counters
Soo Awesome lol. With the alli/petya on empoleon and both covering each other weaknesses incredibly well (Empoleon 4x Ice resist 2x Rock resist and Mence Immunity Ground and resistance to fighting.) Alternating between them can ruin teams especially if your opponent over predicts say using a ice move on Empoleon thinkin ull go to Mence where actually you stay and Alli and sub down to your petya. Awesome especially if the mence is Specs or Band taking out counters
Celebi and Ninjask (yes, Ninjask): Celebi uses Leech Seed when its low on health, then dies and in comes... Ninjask. With its terrible HP stat, it will gain most likely more than it loses from substitute every turn, and then can BP these boosts to the rest of your team. Many times, Celebi counters will use U-turn, which Ninjask can come in on and take little damage thanks to its 4x resist.
Ninjask will probably still get hampered by U-Turn and Stealth Rock, which something like a switch in to Tyranitar won't be very pleasing for Ninjask.