OU Suspect Testing Round 2 Voter Identification and Suspect Nominations

[Vaz]

Hi!

Here are my nominations for this round:

Doryuuzu: After one Swords Dance at an Adamant nature, this pokemon hits 400+ Attack and also receives a Speed Boost that doubles its Speed in the Sand. Together with Earthquake, Rock Slide and X-Scissor, this beast can rip apart teams late game, not to mention that it most commonly holds a balloon, which renders Ground type moves, most notably Earthquake (which is also the most commonly used move in this tier), ineffective to it untill another attacking move hits it. When we combine all this, only a strong priority type move like Mach Punch or a Blaziken can revenge kill it (or there after a change of weather).

Randorusu: With Sand Power and after Swords Dance whilst behind a substitute, this pokemon can begin to penetrate teams with its monstrous Attack boost. Earthquake can single handedly KO a Nattorei after a Swords Damce with Sand Power in play. This can allow other sand abusers to later switch in and sweep late game without much worry. It is a terrifying addition to any sand team and is impossible to wall.

Manaphy: With or without Rain to give it that more demonic potential, after one single Tail Glow, Manaphy is only counter by pokemon that can outspend it and deliver hard Super Effective Damage like a Boruteruso using Thunderbolt or a Birijion using Leaf Storm. If not dater than, only Nattorei can fully wall it with not too much trouble and hit it hard with Power Whip. Other than that nothing can stop the immense and quick Special Attack boosts.

Thank you, and good-bye!

 

[Darkon]

Only got 1280... as I thought it would not lower the score for access to 1400, I gave up scoring, since made clear they were not going down for this time 1400, but the way that was not what happened. Well, the next they could just put 1400 as required score huh.

Well, congrats to who can vote, i told Manaphy and Drizzle will be banned this time... ^ _ ^

 

[Arc Tech]

Confirming as Arc Trick

Nominations:

Manaphy hydrorest means you either need a poke who can outspeed and ohko, 2 who outspeed and 2hko it, or a weather changer.

Kingdra Thanks to its dragon typing, giving it an amazing neutral stab and neutralizing water's weaknesses, this is the crux of the swift swimmers. While not having the highest sp atk, it as the highest speed bar floatzel, and enough for anything outside of scarf deoxys-s to hope to outspeed. While there are some walls who can handle the different versions (natty beats dd, and I believe it can take two LO hydro pumps albeit being crippled, abomasnow beats specs).

Ludicolo Like Kingdra, his secondary typing neutralizes his weaknesses and gives him an important stab, this time grass, which hits SE the bulky waters (and most importantly water absorbers) that would otherwise give him and rain teams a ton of trouble.

Snow Cloak/Sand Veil/Brightpowder/Lax Incense Introduce elements of luck with no other purpose than introducing luck; takes away a player's option of using a 100% accurate move rather than a not quite 100% accurate move (which I always do unless the extra power is absolutely necessary/no alternative)

Confuse Ray, Supersonic, Swagger, Flatter, Dynamic Punch, Attract, Quick Claw, Focus Band Introduce elements of luck with no other purpose than introducing luck.

 

[November Blue]

Nominayshuns:

Manaphy

With rain being so hotly debated at this point, I feel that manaphy pushes rain teams too far. While Landlos, excadrill, kingdra, kabutops and ludicolo are fairly fragile, manaphy is bulky. It has the stats to be either offensive or defensive and the right moves to pull either off extremely well. It just has too much of everything instead of just high speed and power with a couple of other perks (rapid spin, amazing double STAB) and becomes a bulky wall that shurgs off everything while threatening your team with obnoxiously overpowered attacks. If you change the weather, all you have to do is rest, switch out, then restart the deluge and do it all over again.

The ferrothorn/jellicent (or tentacruel) and zapdos core can deal with rain fairly easily while being quite popular. The prevalence of these and sand calls rains centralization into question. With manaphy gone, rain teams lose a major player and potentially become OU worthy.

 

[Bloo]

I'm blue-

 

[coyotte508]

Salamandra. Under this alt i reached 1400 a first time with sand, then with sun. I also went up to 1396 with sun with Fire Dragon but then I OD'd of seeing tyranitar and politoed in every team high on the ladder.

Firstly i nominate Deoxys-N for OU. When it was banned it was virtually unused due to Deoxys-A being on the same tier, hence it was banned without testing (and 30 points difference in both attack stats is not so minor). I'm just saying it would great to bring it down for another round in order to assess it correctly, especially since it's never been a threat.

Then about the whole drizzle/manaphy/swift swim issue. I'm convinced you can manage rain sweepers more or less with defensive pokemons (nattorei, empoleon,burungeru, statusers, ...), except that manaphy brings down anything slower than it that doesn't OHKO it. (in rain) It kills any kind of stall and just breaks your defences against the other rain sweepers. As Nails told me, bring it on something you can force out, tail glow on their switch to nattorei, tail glow again as they powerwhip (you can only 2HKO nattorei and power whip doesn't ohko you), then use rest as they use power whip, wait for the miss and start sweeping. After two tail glows it 2HKOs blissey in rain, bye stall. Of course a weather inducer can do the trick, but using that argument is not healthy for the metagame.

While reading the suspect thread i found this post: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3255066&postcount=1836, to which i agree and that would sum up why I want Manaphy banned. Even if your team does not offer a complete solution against rain sweepers (it could if overspecialized), it at least makes it as said before a lot more manageable. Things like Thunderwave Nattorei or Roost/Substitute/Thunder Wave/Dragon Tail Dragonite can be a great help against rain teams, and they're not the only one. (PS: Even though Manaphy is so dangerous in rain, i don't think it's even close to being broken without rain)

Quoting the post:

Who do I blame for leaving Manaphy in OU? I was hoping it was a joke like when it had 2 days in gen 4 but its still here. You have to run stuff like Specs Sceptile, Voltolos, Jolteon etc. to have a chance at killing it and even then it might not happen after a Calm Mind. +3 Tail Glow is ridicolous too. Nattorei is the closest thing to handle that and still gets 2hkoed and everything in the category of the first 3 "checks" I listed can just be OHKOed on the switch.

I run stall for the 5th gen and I had to stop laddering with it very quickly because of all the Manaphy that just shut me down. My team has proven weatherproof against Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops but im hopeless against Manaphy and theres no way for me to deal with it. All of them can be very tough to deal with but the standard sets (bar Kabutops) are very simple to directly counter and Quagsire or Mach Punch can deal with that.

Drizzle should not be banned even if the "broken trio" is deemed to truly be broken. It makes many otherwise below average pokemon like Parasect and Blastoise viable in OU, gives defensive benefits to pokemon like Rain Dish Tentacruel/Hydration Vaporeon/Nattorei and powers up some sweepers like Gyarados and Feraligator by powering up their stab. Those are some of the examples of the way Drizzle can be fun to use, counterable, and lead to a more diverse metagame.

So how do we decide if something deserves to be banned? If its impossible to even keep it in check like Sub/SD Garchomp was in Gen 4 then swing your banhammer. Manaphy is obviously in that category and I hope it doesn't need any more explanation.

Kingdra- Kingdra's specially based sets in the rain are walled effortlessly by Burungeru, Milotic, Vaporeon, Celebi, Blissey etc. The DD sets arent as powerful but can hurt the other counters a bit. However, Nattorei doesnt have a problem at all in the rain. Quagsire doesn't either. Because its so much less powerful and has to resort to Outrage every time it faces a water resist its very vulnerable to being set up on/phazed out by Steel types.

Ludicolo- Walled unconditionally by Tentacruel. Special sets dont break through Blissey/Chansey and it has to deal with Paralysis from the really bulky walls like Cresselia(I know i know) and Porygon2. Powerful but possible to deal with. Scarfed base 110s and over will always outrun it unless it had a Shell Break baton passed to it.

Kabutops- Porygon2 can directly counter it. It also takes a ton from common priority moves like Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch. No matter how many attack boosts it has it will never break through Quagsire. Unless its Jolly, Scarfed Lati@s, Infernape, Terakion etc. Scarfed base 108s can outrun it.

Notice- Not once did I say "use your own weather inducer" that on its own makes checking these pokemon easier.

The only pokemon who I truly believe to be Uber right now is Manaphy. I could do this process for any other suspects. I hope this helps and Manaphy gets banned so I can play again.

In short, i nominate Manaphy for rain and I'd like a metagame without it to be tested before considering more complicate bans or banning drizzle in its entirety. Even though Manaphy was already automatically nominated, I really wanted to say my opinion :).

About weather teams, seeing Tyranitar so much is dishearteaning (it's there because of latios and politoed mainly :/), I hope it'll improve a bit next round.

 

[Roy Mustang]

I planned on getting 1400, but I bombed at around 1250. Dx. If I read correctly, anyone can nominate. Something else that confused me, some people are nominating things that have already been nominated (this round ofc). Does that make a difference or are they just trying to post reasonings to convince others to ban what they want to ban? Now for my nominations...

Drizzle: I used a drizzle team myself, and it is very over powered. I only lost when I played very badly, or to well-built sand storm and rain teams, or teams with a minimum of 3 counters for rain (which I imagine would make them loose more often against other types of teams besides rain).

Sandstream: I also used a sandteam, and it is just as over powered as rain, in my opinion. I actually beat rain most of the time. Other sand storm teams (specifically gliscor) gave me the most trouble because my team lacked enough counters for them. Doryuuzu kinda fails outside of sand, and randorusu has to use encourage (to get the 33% boost) which misses out on the crit for stone edge, the whole point of using u-turn, and (lol) hitting foes underground for twice the damage. Also, garchomp's sand veil also is not a problem anymore.

Edit: For any of you that want to say "But sandstorm wasn't banned last gen!", last gen it didn't have the abusers that it does now.

 

[Chicken_Vagitas]

Confirming as Scene Boy Alt

Nominations:
Manaphy: In the rain it's just too deadly and i don't see a point of banning drizzle because it makes the game so much fun. And guys just as a side note, popularity or centralization does not make a pokemon broken. Just like heatran and scizor were extremely popular last gen. We are here to ban broken pokemon, not popular mons.

Nattorei: I know people will laugh at this but why dont we ever ban defensive threats? Aside from the cover art insta ubers. We always talk about how doryozu and Randorosu are so bad ass because they can swords dance, yet we never wonder why they need those huge boosts in power. Because walls are just as annoying as their counter parts. Anyways i just want this thing out to make a statement that we cant always just concentrate on banning all the sweepers or the metagame will end up turning into a stall fest.

 

[jrp]

I was jonathanrp-ranking but I capped at like 1230 or something so I guess in the end that doesn't matter. Maybe I'll try to fill out the form.

I'll nominate latias. Latias is bulky and quite easilly get several calm minds. If you try to status her, she can just use refresh. She's fast, and even without soul dew, she is still insane to deal with if you are unprepared.

I also nominate mew (it's still OU,I believe)
It's the best baton passer by far, and it can completely destroy unprepared teams with its tools. Its any-TM ability allows it to pass any stat, be it a Calm Mind, a Swords Dance a rock polish, ect.

It is also bulky.


I also nominate mischevious heart. Pokemon like erufuun can just spam encore repededly with there being no way to stop it. It also allows pokemon to always get in status moves without any way to prevent it.

 

[AlphaSpade]

I nominate everything from Gen V to be uber, because the threshold of power has been set too damn high by Black and White, and I want 5th Gen to be just like 4th Gen. Let's just ban everything with an ounce of power. We might as well just say B/W don't exist and go back to playing the HG/SS metagame.

/rant

On a more serious note:

Swift Swim:I would rather see Swift Swim go than every user of it except Luvdisc/Lumineon. If preserving rain requires SS to go, then so be it.

 

[PttP]

GHETTO SUPERSTAR

im a g

 

[ToF]

I'm goldman

Drizzle - Get rid of this shit ASAP. I didn't think it was broken last round, but maybe that was because we had other broken tools to play with that decimated rain teams like Shaymin-S. Now that that's been banned, rain is incredibly difficult to take down even if you have something like Tyranitar and Nattorei. Without a weather-changer, it is incredibly difficult to beat rain teams unless you're stalling. If Kingdra doesn't get you, Manaphy will.

EDIT: I'm going with RONALD's proposal on banning DRIZZLE + SWIFT SWIM on the SAME TEAM

Randorosu - This thing can simply be described as a beast. So many possible offensive sets with no real definitive way of dealing with it. This round, I dealt with it using Latios, but since that's gonna be banned as well, might as well boot this thing from OU too. I'm not gonna run Skarmory or Bronzong just for this thing. Even things that resist EQ get hit hard because of its ability.

Latios - Very similar to the Gen 4 Latios we banned. Specs and LO both hit incredibly hard, and this raw power increase is more than enough to warrant a ban.

 

[locopoke]

Nominations

Doryuuzu and Shadow Tag c/p'd from last round

Doryuuzu

Most may not agree with this nomination, but I think it's clear that Doryuuzu is the best sand sweeper and breaks the metagame. Reaches 600+ speed in sand with a nice 135 base Attack stat and STAB EQ. Despite its terrible movepool, all it really needs is Earthquake, Rock Slide and Swords Dance to be a menacing threat to practically any team. It also has access to Rapid Spin and is without a doubt the best spinner in the game because of the fact that there aren't many Ghost-types that want to switch into EQ. I feel Balloon is what pushes Doryuuzu over the top, similar to Yache Chomp in DP. Temporary immunity to EQ allows Doryuuzu to get a free Swords Dance against Pokemon that would normally threaten it and land a KO next turn. It should also be noted that with Balloon, Doryuuzu is only taking 3% at most from entry hazards upon switching in which gives the player a lot of mobility in terms of switching around and making predictions. In the hands of a skilled player, it's very hard to stop Doryuuzu from killing multiple Pokemon on one's team and possibly even sweeping.

Shadow Tag

While Wobbuffet didn't see much usage this round, I wanted to get rid of it before suspect tests started and my stance hasn't changed. Getting free kills is utterly retarded and isn't beneficial to the metagame in any way. That's all I really have to say.

Randorosu

THE BEST sand sweeper and one of the best sweepers in the metagame. Sand Power means there's hardly anything that can take a hit from it and above average SpA lets it shut down certain Pokemon that would normally counter it. Able to run a myriad of different sets that are all equally threatening and only has 1 hard counter (Bronzong, Skarmory isn't taking +2 LO Stone Edge very well).

Rankurusu

A few weeks ago I'd probably laugh at the thought of banning Rankurusu, but after playing this round extensively I've come to the conclusion that it is an absolute bitch to take down and is possibly the best Pokemon in the metagame. Magic Guard on what would be a solid Pokemon is just too good, plain and simple. CM flat out shuts down stall teams and shrugs off Tyranitar Crunches and Scizor U-turns without a problem with proper EV investment. TR + 3 atks absolutely runs rampant over more aggro teams and gives Drizzle teams a run for their money as well. Access to STAB Psycho Shock allows it to win any CM war and massive HP + Magic Guard makes it just impossible to kill. I'd love to see this thing get banned.

Latias

In my opinion Latias is better than Latios because of the fact that it takes hits much better while only lacking a bit of power. Similar to Rankurusu, Latias runs a marvelous CM set thanks to its great bulk, which Latios doesn't do nearly as well. CM/Roar with Spikes support is terribly difficult to take down without Tyranitar. It also sports a nice Specs set, but not nearly as well as my next nomination.

Latios

Specs set flat out rapes, nothing in the game is taking a DM from that shit. Even Pokemon like SpDef Jirachi and Nattorei aren't taking less than 35%. Latios is capable of continually switching in and firing off DMs until he wears down all of his counters. It also runs a pretty deadly CM set but not as well as Latias. Please get rid of this thing.

Tyranitar

Tyranitar, a rather average Pokemon with stats and movepool alone, becomes a monster when you add sandstream to the mix. Despite having many weaknesses, above average defense and insane SpDef thanks to sand makes it very hard to take down. Sporting one of the best movepools in Pokemon, there is really no safe switch-in. CB, Scarf, DD, mixed, special, you name it and Tyranitar can run it with relative success. While most people believe that the popularity of sand is due to Doryuuzu and Randorosu, I believe that Tyranitar is ridiculously good on its own and should probably be considered for a ban.

Drought

Yeah fuck it, Drought will probably be a bitch next round and infinite weather is dumb.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

EO UT MORTUS
I HATE ICONIC

Brightpowder / Lax Incense - These items should be banned under Evasion Clause since they provide passive evasion boosts. Based on principle alone, I think this is enough to warrant a ban on them; however, based on their merits alone, I still believe they introduce an undesirable aspect of luck into the game. I do understand that Pokemon should allow for a reasonable degree of luck to exist; however, passive evasion boosts undermine the concept of skill, another important facet of Pokemon, far too much. There is little practical risk in using evasion boosting items, yet the reward of a miss is immense in comparison.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak - These abilities should be banned based on the aforementioned reasoning.

 

[Bologo]

Currently the only thing I'd want to nominate to ubers is Manaphy, but since it's already a suspect due to the simple majority last round, I see no need to write up something big for it. I will say that I really feel Manaphy is the problem, and not Drizzle though. There's usually a way to play around the Swift Swimmers, but against Manaphy, it's honestly able to checkmate you a lot of the time with the HydroRest. Tail Glow wrecks Stall, and Calm Mind wrecks offense. Both can wreck balance. None of the other Rain abusers can boast the ability to steamroll through each playstyle with little to no effort.

However, one thing I would like to do is nominate Deoxys-N for OU. Deoxys-N had a very unfair testing environment where he was basically a blanket ban with Deoxys-A for being an offensively-based Deoxys. I know people aren't going to admit it, but it's pretty obvious that people barely played against it last round, or else they would have seen that it sounds good on paper, but is actually kind of hard to use in practice. I honestly don't know where people got the idea that he was even slightly overpowered, because he's really not.

Unfortunately, the difference in power is really noticeable from Deoxys-A, especially when the majority of the time, you're firing off nonSTAB Special moves with 80-95 BP from 399 SpA (518 with Life Orb). This may seem high, but without STAB, it really doesn't hit that hard. If he carries STAB, this lowers his coverage, which he really needs if he actually wants to sweep.

People were saying that "you use him the same way as Deoxys-A, just fire off Psycho Boost." This can be risky, however, and because of his lower attacking power compared to Deoxys-A, this isn't a foolproof strategy, especially when standard has the following pokemon, who can act as hard counters/checks to Deoxys-N:

Steel/Psychics - (Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong) - Self-explanatory

Psychics with Recovery - (Rankurusu, Celebi, Mew, Deoxys-D, Latias) - All can come in on Psycho Boost and Recover the hit off, while not being able to kill on the 2nd hit with Shadow Ball/Ice Beam (Latias and Celebi) due to -2 SpA.

Steels with Priority - (Kirikizan, Scizor) - Deoxys-A's Psycho Boost may have been able to do over 50% to Scizor, but Deoxys-N's can't due to the power drop. Bullet Punch still OHKOs (or Scizor sets up, even moreso with Rain ruining any utility HP Fire may have had). Psycho Boost doesn't even affect Kirikizan, and while Superpower will OHKO (hint: this is a check, not counter), Kirikizan will OHKO with Sucker Punch first. If Deoxys-N is carrying ExtremeSpeed, Kirikizan can set up a Sub in its face and make life difficult with SD, and his attacking moves.

Wobbuffet - Pretty much anything Deoxys-N does to Wobbuffet will result in a OHKO in return with a countering move.

"But Deoxys-N can just switch out and come in again to fire off another hit!"

Sorry, but I didn't even mention the things that would be solely revenge-killing Deoxys-N (ie. the Choice Scarfers that can hit over 438 Speed). I didn't mention Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Throwers who are all faster than Deoxys in their respective weather and can OHKO him with a whole ton of shit. With the exception of Wobbuffet, this entire list is stuff that can set up shit to utterly punish Deoxys-N for switching out.

Jirachi can set up his Sub + TWave strategy, or Sub + Calm Mind, or just start Calm Minding up right off the bat. Metagross can set up Agility and possibly sweep your team. Bronzong can set up Trick Room and possibly wreck your entire team if it's offensive, or just sweep it with Gyro Ball if it's HO. Rankurusu can set up Calm Mind or Trick Room, both of which it can destroy teams with. Celebi can set up Calm Mind, Nasty Plot, or Swords Dance and either pass them to a partner with BP, or attempt its own sweep. Mew can do the same thing, except it can Baton Pass defensive boosts which Celebi can't. Deoxys-D can start setting up Cosmic Powers or just throw shit onto the field to support its team through SpikeStacking; dual screens are also an option. Latias can start CMing up or set up stuff like dual screens. Scizor can set up Swords Dance to put some serious pain on the Deoxys's team with Bullet Punch. Kirikizan can start going for the Sub/Swords Dance strategy, which in my vast experience of using it, is extremely deadly.

Even stuff like Venusaur in the Sun, although it has to come in after something has died, can come in and put Deoxys to sleep with Sleep Powder, set up Growth, and wreck the opposing team.

Speaking of coming in after something has died, this is often what Deoxys-N has to do. Therefore, it's a liability to keep switching him out whenever he's threatened, because it's very difficult to actually bring him in without something dying, which is why I say he's difficult to use. If he ends up not doing anything significant when he comes in on that revenge-kill, you basically just sacrificed a team member for nothing.

Another reason why Deoxys-N is hard to use is that he has horrible, horrible 4 moveslot syndrome. He needs his moveset to be Psycho Boost/Psychic/Superpower/Ice Beam/Shadow Ball/Thunderbolt/Hidden Power Fire/ExtremeSpeed. That's 8 moves right there, but he can only carry 4. This means that no matter what, he's going to be screwed by something, which is not very encouraging when you consider that he can't afford to be screwed by something if it's so hard to bring him in.

I personally don't see Deoxys-N ruining any playstyles like Manaphy does. Stall can deal with him because he simply can't deal enough damage to those teams, since like I said, nonSTAB 80-95 BP isn't going to be doing very much damage to a prepared Stall team. Offense can deal with him because they're most likely going to have shit that's faster than him (Choice Scarfers, Chlorophyll/Swift Swim/Sand Thrower). Balanced is a combination, so it can deal with him as well.

People are just intimidated by the high attack stats, but don't seem to realize that BP of attacks matters too, and besides Psycho Boost, which has a horrible side effect and is significantly worse than Draco Meteor, Deoxys-N is lacking in high BP moves.

Just as an example:

Venusaur in the Sun with 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe with a Lonely Nature has the following stats with a Life Orb:

301/375/181/306/236/518

Deoxys-N with 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe and a Naive nature has the following stats with a Life Orb:

241/438/136/518/122/438

While it may seem as though Deoxys-N would be hitting way harder than this Venusaur, a closer look needs to be taken. Venusaur's main STAB, Power Whip, has 120 BP. Deoxys-N has Psychic, which is 90 BP. According to calculations comparing the actual power behind each attack when you take into account their stats, Deoxys-N's Psychic only has about 3.5% more power, which means that despite the humongous attacking stat, Venusaur's Power Whip is very close in power to Deoxys-N's Psychic. When you also take into account that Venusaur can double both attacking stats with Growth, while Deoxys-N can't practically set up anything without dying, Venusaur's higher BP on its attacks prevails in the end. This is also the reason why damn near any Rain sweeper is more powerful than Deoxys-N; it's the BP.

EDIT: Power Whip and Chlorophyll are apparently illegal together (though not on the ladder IIRC), but my point still stands, because even with Venusaur's modest 82 base Attack, the power of his main STAB is almost identical to the STAB of pokemon with base 150 thanks to the BP. If you want a legal example, look at literally any Swift Swimmer with a reasonable offensive stat in Rain and you'll see that because of the base power of their attacks, they rival, or beat Deoxys-N in power while even being faster. Or if you want another example of a Chlorophyller, substitute Tangrowth for Venusaur, who literally does the exact same thing Venusaur does while only missing Deoxys-N by 2 points of Speed.

That's all I have to say on this matter. I highly recommend bringing down Deoxys-N for testing so he can have a real chance in OU instead of receiving the unfair blanket ban that he got with Deoxys-A.

 

[capefeather]

1163, peaked at 1230. Clearly, I'm terrible at blitzing the ladder, which is really the only way to get a high rating. But PO can take that to my nearly 2-1 W/L ratio (with my serious team(s)) and suck on it.

I believe that Standard may be substantially improved with the ban of #645 Landorus. I also nominate Latios and Reuniclus; while I can't say that I'm sure that they're too much, my experiences indicate that they should at the very least be put up for a vote (again in the former's case).

First up, Landorus creates a very undesirable scenario just by existing in a team. Consider that his 101 Base Speed allows him to outrun even Chlorophyll / Swift Swim sweepers (losing to Jumpluff but that's not a sweeper... oh yeah there's Floatzel, too) with Rock Polish. Another tool that he could employ is Swords Dance, which, in conjunction with Sand Power boosts, gives him a 698x195 power Earthquake and a 698x130 power Stone Edge (assuming +speed nature), which will KO or seriously hurt just about any Pokémon unfortunate enough to be slower and/or unable to KO him. Lastly, 266x70 power Hidden Power Ice catches Gliscor and #640 Virizion. Landorus could have any two of these three tools, and it's anybody's guess which one he's missing, and it may not even matter. I would consider this genie the "Salamence" of this iteration of Standard, except in addition to these sweeping sets, he also has pretty good Choice sets that might screw the opponent over with an immediate attack.

Now, I'm not just going to list a bunch of stats. What do they mean? The threat of Rock Polish means that an offensive opponent is compelled to attempt to set up a sweeper such as DD Kingdra in the rain (or maybe #642 Thundurus) before Landorus comes out and ruins the whole plan. The threat of Swords Dance means that a defensive opponent is compelled to be very wary of sacrificing just about all of his/her walls or revenge killers. Whatever happens, Landorus has achieved what it wants; a correct guess leads to Landorus maintaining momentum for his team, and an incorrect guess potentially leads to heavy losses on the opponent's side.

Latios has benefited greatly from the bans from the last iteration, with all four of the banned Pokémon more than able to exploit his existence. The Choice Specs set is just as insane as it ever was in the Gen IV tests, because even Steel-types take heavy damage from 359x210 power Specs Draco Meteor, softening them up for everything else, including a second Latios switch-in. Specially defensive Steel-types and Blissey/Chansey are pretty good switch-ins, but they all fear Trick. In addition to this, his special bulk helps it greatly against opponents like CM Virizion and even some Shadow Balls and Ice Beams. To complement this, his 110 Base Speed gives him a lot of breathing room against the 97-108 Base Speed cluster.

Reuniclus was not a Pokémon that I'd seriously considered for a suspect vote until very recently. However, I've since looked back at all of the times in which I faced a Reuniclus and wondered whether it would run Trick Room or Calm Mind. Honestly, Reuniclus got way too many tools in Recover, Calm Mind, Trick Room and even freaking Magic Guard. What the hell, Magic Guard? Combine that with 349x135 Psychic + 349x120 Fighting coverage (hell, I've seen Shadow Ball variants, too, so Lati@s isn't guaranteed) and bulk comparable to Zapdos and you have a Pokémon who is very difficult to stop.

I am rescinding my Latios and Reuniclus noms.

 

[The Grand Babido]

Here are my nominations as gyarados farmer:

Drizzle: I am not even going to explain this one..

Sandstream: I think it is safe to say Sandstream is much more common than Rain teams. With Randorusu, Doryuuzu and even Terakion getting powered up to ridiculous levels in Sandstorm, I think Sandstorm has been more dangerous in this metagame than Drizzle. However, I would also be happy with the removal of Randorusu and Doryuuzu, so I guess you could nominate those as well, although I would rather see an ability go rather than two Pokemon, as no doubt Tyranitar and Hippowdon have Dream World abilities they can use, and they will still be top tier Pokemon. I believe Randorusu is ridiculous and I have really only come across two viable counters in this metagame. These two Pokemon are Bronzong and Tangrowth. Anything else just gets beaten into the ground. The fact that it can do over 65% to some Hippowdon with a physical attack really show how overpowered it is. While I admit i was only swept by Doryuuzu a couple of times in this metagame, it makes the game so centralized. Everyone had to carry at least 2 checks to it, as at times, not even Gliscor could beat it as if it dropped below 50%, Balloon versions would be able to take it down. The removal of Sandstream also means the removal of Sand Veil. I do not really want Sand Veil to be banned as I think that would be the end of Roost Gliscor [who some believe is outclassed by the Poison Heal version...]. If, in fact I guess it is a matter of when, Drizzle of Swift Swim or a combination of both get banned, I believe Sand will only get worse and worse.

Drought: More of a preemptive ban than anything else, and I know this is generally not the best option, I still think Drought will be overpowered with the removal of Drizzle. Common sweepers on a heavy offensive sun team are just as powerful and difficult to take down as Rain Dance sweepers. I have to be honest and say that I was more scared of a Venusaur in Sun than a Kingdra in Rain [maybe that was because half the time I was packing a Nattorei], but anyway, I see Sun-Offense being the ideal replacement for the Rain Heavy Offense that plagued the metagame during this round of suspect testing. This, however, is the nomination I am most unsure about.

Rankurusu: Probably the best Pokemon in the metagame and the fact that pretty much nothing can OHKO the 252/252+ versions after a Calm Mind make it very difficult to take down. This, compounded with the fact that it has the ability Magic Guard, makes its sweeping potential ridiculous. There is also the Trick Room version, who under Trick Room, is fast, powerful and bulky as well as having access to perfect coverage to complement its STAB move. The fact that a Calm Mind version with Psycho Shock is able to take down other Calm Minders easily means that CM+Roar Latias, and the more uncommon CM+Roar Suicune have an incredibly difficult time coming in, setting up, then phazing. There are only 1 or 2 actually solid counters for this, and there is only one with really any other potential in this metagame. That is Scizor. Pokemon like Spiritomb and the Dark/Flying Vulture can beat it although at this current time, their use in this metagame outside of beating Rankurusu is slim. The fact that Rankurusu makes an entire playstyle almost impossible to play [stall] warrants its ban alone and I can only see it becoming even better in a Drizzle-less metagame.

 

[Delta 2777]

I'm "play the game".

Drizzle (or Drizzle + Swift Swim) - While I do not think Drizzle is broken by itself, the sheer centralization it forces is too significant to be ignored. I can give you a near-guarentee that nobody that qualified had a team that lacked a Tyranitar or Politoed for this very reason - the metagame has become a game where whoever controls the weather generally wins.

Randorosu - A month ago I never would've imagined nominating Randorosu, but with Hidden Power Ice becoming the new fad - thereby removing several of his old counters, particularly Gliscor - this thing is just seriously hard to play around. It essentially has three counters: Skarmory, Ice Fang Hippowdon, and Bronzong (and ScarfPolitoed I guess). Skarmory and Hippowdon are nearly OHKOed by a +2 Stone Edge or Earthquake respectively regardless. I plan to abstain from the Randorosu vote, but I feel the need to get the name out there.

 

[Lamppost]

im pure skill (already posted but heres my noms)

I support Aldaron's idea to ban drizzle + swift swim combo

Anyways heres my noms:

Drizzle-drizzle is by far the worst thing that has happened to the metagame. It has caused the metagame to overcentralize around a certain group of mons. Other than that it has too many sweepers that just make it ridiculous. Drizzle has made it so that whoever controls the weather wins the game.

Drought-As heist said i think that this weather will take over as the premier heavy offense weather once drizzle is banned. If drizzle is somehow not banned then i think drought should stay. Drought may not have many viable chlorophyl users but the sheer abuse of the power boost of fire moves is just stupid. Venasaur has a super high speed in the sun and the move growth which makes it ridiculously hard to wall. so many sweepers can abuse the sun like blaziken and urugamasu(idk how to spell it).

Doryuuzu- Doryuuzu is just flat out overpowered. It reaches near 600 speed in the sand! If thats not enough it had the move swords dance which can pretty much tear through any team.

Randorusu- overlooked last round but hopefully not this round. IMO its more dangerous than dory is. It can rock polish or swords dance, or BOTH. If it can get both up it's virtually unstoppable.

 

[kobo1d]

Deoxys-N: Deoxys-N was banned almost purely on theorymon. In the previous round, it was completely outclassed by Deoxys-A and thus marginalized. Though there are no usage statistics to back up this claim, I would speculate based on anecdotal evidence Deoxys-N was on less than 0.5% of teams. This lack of usage, and the non-trivial difference in base stats between Deoxys-A and Deoxys-N, leads me to believe Deoxys-N should be tested in an environment without its deadlier sibling.

Sand Veil / Snow Cloak / BrightPowder / Lax Incense / Acupressure / Any other possible source of +Evasion: Inconstant is gone, why not just fix/complete Evasion clause. Everyone knows how trollish the abilities and items are, and allowing them but disallowing Double Team seems like it's more complicated that it should be. I suggest modifying Evasion clause to include anything that can increase evasion. All of the Pokemon either now or will eventually have other abilities through Dream World. I cannot overstate how many games I have won with SD/Sub Brightpowder Garchomp in the sand that I probably shouldn't have.

Preference for rain ban (if deemed necessary):
1st choice: Politoed or specific Abusers (simple pokemon ban)
2nd choice: Drizzle or Swift Swim (simple ability ban)
3rd choice: Pocket's / Aldaron's Proposal (complex pokemon + ability bans)

Simplicity has a quality all its own.

 

[JLei2k]

Confirming as iampoohbear will post nominations later.

 

[More Cowbell]

Nominating Doryuuzu and Drizzle.

What's with all the Rankurusu-bashing, all at once?

 

[uragg]

I am SGT. SEMEN.

nominating Doryuuzu because it is strong

 

[Nanoswine]

Drizzle and Manaphy are already guaranteed suspects, you guys don't have to nominate them again >_>

That aside, I would like to nominate Doryuuzu. If you don't have at least two checks for this guy, he will 6-0 you without a doubt. Not only that, but you have to keep those two checks healthy throughout the duration of the match. Add to that the fact that most of Dory's common teammates (Randorosu, Terakion) have the same checks as he does and you find yourself in a bit of a predicament. As if that wasn't enough, Dory can singlehandedly defeat Stall, being the best Offensive spinner in the game. There are not many Ghosts that can safely switch in on him, and none that can just shrug off what he throws at them. With a Balloon attached, he also only takes 3% (?) from SR, and is immune to (T)Spikes.

I also nominate Latios. Anything that can stand up to a Specs Draco Meteor can be dealt with with HP Fire (Nattorei), Psycho Shock (Blissey and other special walls), or Surf (Heatran). Especially since we are likely going to shoot Rain in the foot in some way this round, Nattorei can't take HP Fire and fire off a Twave anymore. Add to this the fact that it outspeeds a huge portion of the metagame unboosted, and you have a Pokemon that is just too fast and powerful.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, I support Aldaron's proposal.

I do support it because it is an excellent compromise and really takes away most of the negative impact that banning Drizzle or Swift Swim would cause. It also deals with the possible problem of infinite Rain still being OP with abusers like Specs Starmie or Zapdos, or the less common Swift Swimmers. I think just banning Drizzle would be easier, but banning Drizzle + Swift Swim would definitely have a better overall outcome on the metagame. When it comes time to vote, as you said it will probably just come down to whether people think Drizzle is a "special case," which would justify making a slightly more complex ban in exchange for a better outcome.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Every single weather-inducing ability except Snow Warning:

Well, Rain has many abusers, but banning Drizzle would cause Rain to die out because of permanent Sand's superiority. But Sand is broken too with Doryuuzu and Landlos. Yeah, we've had a Sand metagame last gen, too, but back then we didn't have Doryuuzu, who isn't that good outside of Sand but is terrifying in, in combination with the Sand-dwellers we already have. But if you ban permanent Rain and Sand, permanent Sun dominates, which should not be ignored with terrifying sweepers such as Blaziken, Shandera, and Ulgamoth. I don't think permanent Hail should be banned because there's only one strong Hail-boosted sweeper, and although Kyurem is a force to be reckoned with, there's not much else.