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OU Suspect Testing Round 4 Voter Identification and Nominations
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
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Reuniclus : Nothing apart from Sp.Def Scizor and Jirachi handle this this well at all whilst still actually being useful. Spritomb and Escavlier are scarcely used which are the next best things to actually dealing with it. The former is inferior to Jellicent/other Pokemon at doing other things and Pain Split has always sucked and now Rest sucks too. The latter is inferior to Scizor and has a poor movepool. Tyranitar is also not a counter or a good check, for a start it cant actually KO Reuniclus and is also at risk from Focus Blasts and then there is the Trick Room set which also KO's it. The Calm Mind set is far too bulky and is ridiculously hard to take out and stop it sweeping and this is amplified against stall whilst the Trick Room set rips though offense and most checks to the CMer (Sup CM Roar Latias) whilst still being really bulky.
Sandveil/Snowcloak : Yeah, we have enough luck in the metagame. If you outplay your opponent the whole match, this can still cost you, that really should not be the case. Its my own fault if my Fire Blast misses, but i cant do anything to stop this. It adds nothing viable to the game skill wise and when you have crap like Sub Chomp subbing down fishing for misses you know its broken. There was a reason evasion was banned and its to stop stuff like this ridiculousness.
SmashPassing (Shell Smash + Baton Pass): This is really not healthy for the metagame. Its disgustingly hard to stop. Phazers wont work because of Espeon being common on SmashPass teams, especially now Baton Pass is legal with Magic Bounce. Dragon Tail wont work because of Gorebyss/said passer commonly having Sub. You must resort to using moves like Perish Song, Haze and Clear Smog (even on offensive teams) which to be honest are poor moves which are inferior to other PHazing moves. What is even more insane is that if you lack these moves you pretty much get auto swept with this strat.
Sandveil/Snowcloak : Yeah, we have enough luck in the metagame. If you outplay your opponent the whole match, this can still cost you, that really should not be the case. Its my own fault if my Fire Blast misses, but i cant do anything to stop this. It adds nothing viable to the game skill wise and when you have crap like Sub Chomp subbing down fishing for misses you know its broken. There was a reason evasion was banned and its to stop stuff like this ridiculousness.
SmashPassing (Shell Smash + Baton Pass): This is really not healthy for the metagame. Its disgustingly hard to stop. Phazers wont work because of Espeon being common on SmashPass teams, especially now Baton Pass is legal with Magic Bounce. Dragon Tail wont work because of Gorebyss/said passer commonly having Sub. You must resort to using moves like Perish Song, Haze and Clear Smog (even on offensive teams) which to be honest are poor moves which are inferior to other PHazing moves. What is even more insane is that if you lack these moves you pretty much get auto swept with this strat.
the pokemon are covered well enough. i didn't have time to get voting rights so im not gonna apply for special permissions.
just please fucking ban smash passing. its an incredibly shitty strategy that has ridiculously good payoffs provided you're not an idiot and pass to the right pokemon, which given the amount of offensive powerhouses in bw isn't that difficult. the whole strategy of screens followed by smash passing makes the gliscor pass to metagross strategy absolutely futile in comparison. try facing constant teams of deoxys-s to gorebyss to whatever sweeper (like GARCHOMP). it's extremely difficult to stop, and not only that but its an incredibly cheap strategy that doesn't even encourage any "competitiveness".
that's all.
just please fucking ban smash passing. its an incredibly shitty strategy that has ridiculously good payoffs provided you're not an idiot and pass to the right pokemon, which given the amount of offensive powerhouses in bw isn't that difficult. the whole strategy of screens followed by smash passing makes the gliscor pass to metagross strategy absolutely futile in comparison. try facing constant teams of deoxys-s to gorebyss to whatever sweeper (like GARCHOMP). it's extremely difficult to stop, and not only that but its an incredibly cheap strategy that doesn't even encourage any "competitiveness".
that's all.
Lugia should be tested in OU. If you disagree, nominate it and prove me wrong.
I am Jonny7
I would like to nominate Garchomp. Garchomp is a huge offensive powerhouse. However, the biggest problem with him is sandveil. Sand veil is not a problem on most pokemon, but garchomp has so much offensive power that 1 or 2 misses can decide the game. Furthermore, nerely every top ranked player runs garchomp with substitutes, which cause a huge number of games to be decided on the number of misses garchomp gets. Garchomp introduces an element of luck that should not exist in any competitive metagame.
I would like to nominate Garchomp. Garchomp is a huge offensive powerhouse. However, the biggest problem with him is sandveil. Sand veil is not a problem on most pokemon, but garchomp has so much offensive power that 1 or 2 misses can decide the game. Furthermore, nerely every top ranked player runs garchomp with substitutes, which cause a huge number of games to be decided on the number of misses garchomp gets. Garchomp introduces an element of luck that should not exist in any competitive metagame.
So there has been lots of Garchomp nominations as of late. I have been thinking recently, and I believe that we should honestly try out banning Sandstream + Sand Veil (Complex Ban) or have a blanket ban on the ability Sand Veil (Simple Ban).
Yes, I understand that Sand Veil did not break any of the other monsters, such as Sandslash and Gliscor, which is why I initially supported the ban on Garchomp rather than a ban on Sand Veil. However, once I started reading about the Moody ban in Ubers and Chou Toshio's rational in banning based on 2 reasons - for uncompetitive or overcentralising reasons, I began to see the issue in a different light.
Sand Veil is not just an Ability that "pushes Garchomp over the edge," as many people puts it, while other Pokemon possessing the same ability are harmless; it is uncompetitive by definition. Everyone in the nomination thread are complaining about the drastic 20% reduction in all of the move's accuracy. I have to say that this is a problem about the uncompetitive nature of the ability rather than the combination of Sand Veil + Garchomp itself. I am pretty sure if Hail ever becomes popular, people will complain about Snow Cloak Mamoswine and Glaceons. It is not an isolated issue, the evasion-boosting abilities are the culprit, not the Pokemon unfortunate to receive these abilities.
For such reasons, I will be nominating Sand Veil + Sandstorm or simply Sand Veil for nominations, due to the "Moody" factor - it adds intolerable amount of luck into our match.
Garchomp could use a second chance (or a return to OU once Rough Skin is released) without the evasion nonsense. Arguably it was the exploitation of Sand Veil that has led to the overcentralization around Garchomp, and I believe without Sand Veil, we would not have to face this issue anymore with any other monsters as well.
By extension, I will be nominating Snow Warning + Snow Cloak or simply Snow Cloak for the same reasons; because the evasion has the potential to rob the would-be winner the victory.
Yes, I understand that Sand Veil did not break any of the other monsters, such as Sandslash and Gliscor, which is why I initially supported the ban on Garchomp rather than a ban on Sand Veil. However, once I started reading about the Moody ban in Ubers and Chou Toshio's rational in banning based on 2 reasons - for uncompetitive or overcentralising reasons, I began to see the issue in a different light.
Sand Veil is not just an Ability that "pushes Garchomp over the edge," as many people puts it, while other Pokemon possessing the same ability are harmless; it is uncompetitive by definition. Everyone in the nomination thread are complaining about the drastic 20% reduction in all of the move's accuracy. I have to say that this is a problem about the uncompetitive nature of the ability rather than the combination of Sand Veil + Garchomp itself. I am pretty sure if Hail ever becomes popular, people will complain about Snow Cloak Mamoswine and Glaceons. It is not an isolated issue, the evasion-boosting abilities are the culprit, not the Pokemon unfortunate to receive these abilities.
For such reasons, I will be nominating Sand Veil + Sandstorm or simply Sand Veil for nominations, due to the "Moody" factor - it adds intolerable amount of luck into our match.
Garchomp could use a second chance (or a return to OU once Rough Skin is released) without the evasion nonsense. Arguably it was the exploitation of Sand Veil that has led to the overcentralization around Garchomp, and I believe without Sand Veil, we would not have to face this issue anymore with any other monsters as well.
By extension, I will be nominating Snow Warning + Snow Cloak or simply Snow Cloak for the same reasons; because the evasion has the potential to rob the would-be winner the victory.
Nominating Drizzle/Drought for the following reasons.
(Side Note: Additionally, nominating 'Excadrill and Garchomp' as I feel that these are the only Pokemon that break Sand Stream.)
It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.
Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:
In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.
On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon, when trying to counter all three at the same time. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.
In the case where a check can take a single hit and then OHKO it back, this would mean that the Pokemon would A. have to be faster and B. have enough HP left to live the attack on the switch in (if you didn’t want to sacrifice a Pokemon).
For example:
In scenario one -
Darmanitan – Adamant (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun
Max hp/def bold Suicune:
416 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (304 Base Power): 188 - 222 (46.53% - 54.95%)
Suicune can be switched in to take the hit however it is slower and on average it will be OHKO’d on the second hit.
In scenario two –
(Latios, Hydreigon and Haxorus are all OHKO’d)
Darmanitan (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun
Sweeper Garchomp:
416 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (304 Base Power): 300 - 354 (84.03% - 99.16%)
Yes in this case, Garchomp is faster and can take one hit. However, the large majority of even resistant sweepers will not meet both of the requirements. And will therefore have to rely on a safe switch by sacrificing a team mate.
In the case of a priority check:
Aqua Jet – For some reason I do not see Azumarill in OU, it is a check (to specific weather abusers), but how often do people use it.
Extreme Speed – I don’t see Dragonite using this move anymore, and I don’t see any Lucario’s in OU either.
Vaccume Wave – I don’t see this move in OU.
Mach Punch (Conkeldurr and Breeloom) – Conkeldurr fails to OHKO Excadrill full stop. Additionally, (does not include SR) Breeloom on average fails to OHKO Excadrill, however Excadrill on Average will OHKO it back with Return. Furthermore, weather abusers such as Vensaur/ Starmie/ Dragonite/ Thunderus/ Tornados resist Mach Punch, whilst the large majority of others who do not resist are not OHKO’d anyway.
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Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.
(Looking at OU)
Stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.
Pokemon which are not purely affected by the typing advantages and disadvantages of rain/sun are still victims of weather abuse. For example drizzle allows Rotom-W to OHKO Conkeldurr with hydro pump. In this case Conkeldurr’s typing damage is not altered, but none the less it is still a victim of weather abuse.
Anyway before I go off in a tangent, my point is that Conkeldurr and other specific Pokemon get no boost what so ever by rain, whilst other Pokemon are give some sort of statistical advantage, and even though Conkeldurr and others are not purely affected by rain, they still are victimised by those that do.
Additionally, as I have already stated such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.
In conclusion, the importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats.
(Side Note: Additionally, nominating 'Excadrill and Garchomp' as I feel that these are the only Pokemon that break Sand Stream.)
It is my belief that the enjoyable ‘old style of battling’ has been sadly lost and replaced with the tiresome never-ending weather war. Opponents desperately compete with each other for weather control because without it they will almost surely lose. Let’s face it, the Metagame is now solely based on who can keep their weather starter alive the longest so they can sweep the other players team. (Or what team can I make to counter the most weather abusers.) Honestly, I do not feel that this version of battling is even enjoyable or in my opinion more skilful than the previous way we battled. Before we had to outsmart the other player through our use of skill and tactics, now through the loss of one or two Pokemon (whether it be a weather starter or the main counter for weather sweeper ‘X’) we can easily lose the game. At this point you look back and think, is there any way I could have possibly won from point ‘Y’ if I hadn’t done this, or hadn’t done that, but more so we find ourselves thinking that it would have be literally impossible to win from this point. This is not because the opponent superiorly outsmarted us; it is simply due to the fact that based on our team we couldn’t have possibly won. The threat of weather has just become too strong in my opinion. We shouldn’t be doomed to lose a battle (so early in the game) just because of the ‘death’ of one or two members of our team. Yes, they are a few scenarios in non-weather teams where this occurs, but with weather it occurs too often. Which I feel proves that something is wrong with the Metagame.
Now in the case of Non-weather versus weather:
In the last generation of Pokemon, Sweepers could be handled in two ways, either through the use of counters or revenge killers. However, choice scarf sweepers are no longer able to outrun the main OU sweepers in this generation, as in comparison to their 1.5 speed boost, weather sweepers get a greatly superior times 2 speed boost. (Side Note: choice scarf sweepers are balanced by the fact that they can only stick to one move, where as weather sweepers can freely switch between all moves). This means that we can only rely on the use of counters to stop heavy sweepers in their tracks.
On this note, non-weather teams have to use counters for each of the weather abusers. This therefore only leaves a small space of one or two more Pokemon, when trying to counter all three at the same time. Yes I know these ‘weather checkers have other purposes’ but considering that weather checks for each separate weather usually fails against another weather, means that certain slots on the team are useless majority of the time.
I hadn’t meant to make it sound like all weather sweepers have access to the double speed boost, but you’re right it did sound like I was implying that. However, on that note I still regard other weather sweepers (with no speed boost) as being difficult to deal with (aside from the use of specific counters to them) due to the massive pros and cons of weather.
In the case where a check can take a single hit and then OHKO it back, this would mean that the Pokemon would A. have to be faster and B. have enough HP left to live the attack on the switch in (if you didn’t want to sacrifice a Pokemon).
For example:
In scenario one -
Darmanitan – Adamant (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun
Max hp/def bold Suicune:
416 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (304 Base Power): 188 - 222 (46.53% - 54.95%)
Suicune can be switched in to take the hit however it is slower and on average it will be OHKO’d on the second hit.
In scenario two –
(Latios, Hydreigon and Haxorus are all OHKO’d)
Darmanitan (sheer force – LO) Flare Blitz in sun
Sweeper Garchomp:
416 Atk vs 226 Def & 357 HP (304 Base Power): 300 - 354 (84.03% - 99.16%)
Yes in this case, Garchomp is faster and can take one hit. However, the large majority of even resistant sweepers will not meet both of the requirements. And will therefore have to rely on a safe switch by sacrificing a team mate.
In the case of a priority check:
Aqua Jet – For some reason I do not see Azumarill in OU, it is a check (to specific weather abusers), but how often do people use it.
Extreme Speed – I don’t see Dragonite using this move anymore, and I don’t see any Lucario’s in OU either.
Vaccume Wave – I don’t see this move in OU.
Mach Punch (Conkeldurr and Breeloom) – Conkeldurr fails to OHKO Excadrill full stop. Additionally, (does not include SR) Breeloom on average fails to OHKO Excadrill, however Excadrill on Average will OHKO it back with Return. Furthermore, weather abusers such as Vensaur/ Starmie/ Dragonite/ Thunderus/ Tornados resist Mach Punch, whilst the large majority of others who do not resist are not OHKO’d anyway.
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Back to my point that weather allows Pokemon ‘X’ to live ‘Y’ and Pokemon ‘Y’ to kill ‘Z’.
(Looking at OU)
Stealth rocks also shares the same characteristics as this, however the damage of stealth rocks is greatly limited in comparison. Stealth Rocks only majorly effects 4 types – Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying (three of which’s pure typing isn’t used in the OU Metagame due to this heavy SR damage.) For the remaining types the damage of stealth rocks is limited to a small amount which only occurs on switching. Weather on the other hand, majorly affects the damage done to the majority of Pokemon. It has become too powerful in the sense that it completely changes the Metagame to favour specific Pokemon and put others at a major disadvantage. Such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.
Through my argument I was trying to show how stealth Rocks does not greatly affect the majority of OU because the only pure typing to be hit hard and used in OU is flying. Weather on the other hand affects everything in OU. Yes the level of degree varies however the damage inflicted is of a much greater level than SR.
Pokemon which are not purely affected by the typing advantages and disadvantages of rain/sun are still victims of weather abuse. For example drizzle allows Rotom-W to OHKO Conkeldurr with hydro pump. In this case Conkeldurr’s typing damage is not altered, but none the less it is still a victim of weather abuse.
Anyway before I go off in a tangent, my point is that Conkeldurr and other specific Pokemon get no boost what so ever by rain, whilst other Pokemon are give some sort of statistical advantage, and even though Conkeldurr and others are not purely affected by rain, they still are victimised by those that do.
Additionally, as I have already stated such favourability for such a large number of Pokemon should not be brought on just by sending a Pokemon out without even using a move.
In conclusion, the importance of weather has far surpassed what used to be acceptable, and is thus creating an unbalanced game where non-weather things aren't important and get overwhelmed unless they counter specific weather threats.
I nominate All Permanent Weather Abilities.
The vast majority of all these nominations and previous recent Suspects are and have been Weather-Based in one way or another. Excadrill, Garchomp, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Swift Swim, and even Landorus back when Sand Power was incorrect on the PO Client. Weather is clearly the problem and we're simply beating around the bush. People may say Drought is not broken as the others, but look at UU right now. Sun is only balanced by the other weathers. This may be the wrong mentality to have, but let's save ourselves months of suspect testing and constant bickering and just kill the problem at the root.
By banning Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, & Snow Warning, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, & Abomasnow get a temporary shaft from OU. Very true, but assuming they will get their Dream World abilities they will be back. So far Game Freak hasn't put any unused data on a Pokemon that is obtainable that didn't at least show up by the 3rd game of the Generation except for ??? Arceus so that assumption is justified. I don't know what else I can say that hasn't been said over and over again by others.
There's plenty of elephants in this room but let's stop ignoring the biggest elephant. We move it out and the rest will follow with no need to ban them.
The vast majority of all these nominations and previous recent Suspects are and have been Weather-Based in one way or another. Excadrill, Garchomp, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Swift Swim, and even Landorus back when Sand Power was incorrect on the PO Client. Weather is clearly the problem and we're simply beating around the bush. People may say Drought is not broken as the others, but look at UU right now. Sun is only balanced by the other weathers. This may be the wrong mentality to have, but let's save ourselves months of suspect testing and constant bickering and just kill the problem at the root.
By banning Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, & Snow Warning, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, & Abomasnow get a temporary shaft from OU. Very true, but assuming they will get their Dream World abilities they will be back. So far Game Freak hasn't put any unused data on a Pokemon that is obtainable that didn't at least show up by the 3rd game of the Generation except for ??? Arceus so that assumption is justified. I don't know what else I can say that hasn't been said over and over again by others.
There's plenty of elephants in this room but let's stop ignoring the biggest elephant. We move it out and the rest will follow with no need to ban them.
I say weather inducers should be nominated collectively. You ban Drizzle, now it's all Drought and Sandstream (probably mostly Sand). You ban Drought too, infinite Sand forever, etc.
Not to mention, without free sand Garchomp's Sand Veil is completely irrelevant (unless they waste a moveslot to give something Sandstorm and waste a turn using it, which really doesn't seem worth the effort).
Not to mention, without free sand Garchomp's Sand Veil is completely irrelevant (unless they waste a moveslot to give something Sandstorm and waste a turn using it, which really doesn't seem worth the effort).
Garchomp - Garchomp may not be an issue out of sand, but it sure is what's breaking it. Sand Veil is the real issue here, but Sand Veil dosent break Dugtrio, Sandslash or even Gliscor. Sand Veil breaks only Garchomp, meaning Garchomp is the issue.
Basically, Garchomp generally abuses Subsitute until Sand Veil kicks in, and then Sword Dances, and sweeps a large portion of the other team. Sand Veil and continue to kick in as well, driving the nail in firther and further every time.
As a side note, I feel Garchomp's banning may balance Sand Stream for the OU metagame, allowing Drought to stay as well [As Sand beats Sun with ease]
Drizzle - Drizzle is overpowered even without Swift Swim. Drizzle turns Tornadus, Thunderus, Rotom-W, Starmie, Dragonite, Gyarados and Latios into even more offensive juggernaughts, by boosting the power of their Water attacks, or allowing them 100% accurate Thunders/Hurricanes. Many of these attackers already have obscene attack stats, and either speed, bulk, or the ability to set up even further, making many of them uncounterable.
The number of times I've swept with a BulkyTaunt DD Gyarados in the rain is stupid, so don't write him off. And I don't play OU primarily.
Let's not even get onto Ferrothorn.
Thunderus - Rain or no rain, this thing is stupid. You can't wall it with something like Blissey due to Priority Taunt. It has Zapdos' typing, which is a godsend, as Electric's one weakness is written off, so it only provides resistances and an excellent STAB. Thunderus is hardly fragile either, although it's no wall, it's better in bulk than other threatening set-up sweepers like Lucario.
After a nasty plot, basically nothing can stand in Thunderus' way, and with it's typing, and Prankster, it's rather easy to get one off.
Ferrothorn - The rain makes this thing completely broken, but Ferrothorn is broken in it's own right. It has defenses to rival Lugia and Girantina, when you take into account it's excellent typing. Then, consider Iron Barbs, Leech Seed, Protect, and the ability to set up hazards, as well as two STABS which will generally be 120 Base Power.
Ferrothorn also has some degree of unpredictabilty. It can handle certain counters with certain EV spreads, for example, Max/Max Ferrothorn is not OHKO'ed by Azumarill, while it still retains significant special bulk.
Ferrothorn can also be used in tandem with something like Vaporeon, who can easily wish i back to full HP, with Ferrothorn's low HP stat.
Ferrothorn forces you to run a Fighting Type with a strong STAB and high attack, such as Conkeldurr or Machamp, or a Fire type such as Heatran. Otherwise, YOU WILL LOSE. Look at almost any sweeper that was around in 4th Gen, and you'll see that they always use Fire/Fighting as coverage now, because of Ferrothorn. [IE: Garchomp now almost always runs Fire Fang instead of Stone Edge, meaning he loses to things like Zapdos and Gyarados.]
Something so centralising, that walls a massive proportion of the metagame with such ease has no place in OU.
Basically, Garchomp generally abuses Subsitute until Sand Veil kicks in, and then Sword Dances, and sweeps a large portion of the other team. Sand Veil and continue to kick in as well, driving the nail in firther and further every time.
As a side note, I feel Garchomp's banning may balance Sand Stream for the OU metagame, allowing Drought to stay as well [As Sand beats Sun with ease]
Drizzle - Drizzle is overpowered even without Swift Swim. Drizzle turns Tornadus, Thunderus, Rotom-W, Starmie, Dragonite, Gyarados and Latios into even more offensive juggernaughts, by boosting the power of their Water attacks, or allowing them 100% accurate Thunders/Hurricanes. Many of these attackers already have obscene attack stats, and either speed, bulk, or the ability to set up even further, making many of them uncounterable.
The number of times I've swept with a BulkyTaunt DD Gyarados in the rain is stupid, so don't write him off. And I don't play OU primarily.
Let's not even get onto Ferrothorn.
Thunderus - Rain or no rain, this thing is stupid. You can't wall it with something like Blissey due to Priority Taunt. It has Zapdos' typing, which is a godsend, as Electric's one weakness is written off, so it only provides resistances and an excellent STAB. Thunderus is hardly fragile either, although it's no wall, it's better in bulk than other threatening set-up sweepers like Lucario.
After a nasty plot, basically nothing can stand in Thunderus' way, and with it's typing, and Prankster, it's rather easy to get one off.
Ferrothorn - The rain makes this thing completely broken, but Ferrothorn is broken in it's own right. It has defenses to rival Lugia and Girantina, when you take into account it's excellent typing. Then, consider Iron Barbs, Leech Seed, Protect, and the ability to set up hazards, as well as two STABS which will generally be 120 Base Power.
Ferrothorn also has some degree of unpredictabilty. It can handle certain counters with certain EV spreads, for example, Max/Max Ferrothorn is not OHKO'ed by Azumarill, while it still retains significant special bulk.
Ferrothorn can also be used in tandem with something like Vaporeon, who can easily wish i back to full HP, with Ferrothorn's low HP stat.
Ferrothorn forces you to run a Fighting Type with a strong STAB and high attack, such as Conkeldurr or Machamp, or a Fire type such as Heatran. Otherwise, YOU WILL LOSE. Look at almost any sweeper that was around in 4th Gen, and you'll see that they always use Fire/Fighting as coverage now, because of Ferrothorn. [IE: Garchomp now almost always runs Fire Fang instead of Stone Edge, meaning he loses to things like Zapdos and Gyarados.]
Something so centralising, that walls a massive proportion of the metagame with such ease has no place in OU.
Ban Drizzle - While I do not believe Drizzle in and of itself is broken, the effect it has on the metagame is seriously detrimental: the current "weather wars" mostly exist solely because of it; you severely need weather to win versus Rain and the other weathers, or it's going to be an uphill battle; the whole anti-weather sentiment is due to the Drizzle-ridden metagame we have right now. The pro-weather camp saying we need Drizzle to keep Sand and Sun in check is a completely retarded argument, as it's the same as saying "Ubers check Ubers" and well, ironically, some players say Ubers is more balanced than OU right now lol. Aldaron's proposal was the best thing we could have done in Round 2 to better evaluate Rain; the best course of action today, however, is banning Drizzle altogether and letting Thundurus, Tornadus, Manaphy and Kingdra set up Rain for themselves and their team. It's a shame Parasect and Toxicroak will have to pay for this, but while Drizzle makes a certain number of pokémon "viable", "good" or "very good", they do not compensate for the effects it has on team building and the metagame as a whole.
Ban Garchomp - Sand Veil was the cherry on top in DPPt, but now it's the elephant in the room. Garchomp didn't get anything new, but it didn't need to, it only needed to adapt; the sheer number of threats in OU we have to take into account nowadays mean losing any single pokémon opens up your team even more to the rest of the metagame, and that's exactly what Garchomp does with Sand Veil. 20% of the time (every turn), you're going to miss and lose one of your Garchomp checks/counters and then may even lose another one the following turn, meaning you may be "over-prepared" for it and still lose. No one needs dedicated Garchomp counters, and that's exactly what makes Garchomp even more dangerous: if you have a Virizion and your HP Ice miss, not only you lost your Garchomp check, but now you have one less pokémon to stop Rain/Sand. If your Dragon Pulse (yeah, Dragon Pulse) missed and your Lati fainted, you lost a pokémon to stop Sun. If your Bullet Punch missed and your Scizor died, how are you going to stop Reuniclus again...? No other "evasion abuser" can do this as Garchomp. None of them can abuse that single extra turn and plow a gigantic hole on your team. Only Garchomp can do this, and that's why it needs to go, not Sand Veil or some silly complex ban which is exactly what we should avoid doing and will never do again if Drizzle gets banned.
Free Manaphy - It was clearly broken (in my opinion) with Drizzle but, banning auto-Rain and making it have to either rely on Geniebros and Kingdra or set it up by itself will probably make it not only "manageable", but a perfectly acceptable OU and actually a very important piece of the metagame, working as an anti-Sun/Sand pokémon without being a burden on the team.
Free Brightpowder/Lax Incence - Ridiculous. The biggest evidence there's a ban-happiness "fog" surrounding Smogon since the beginning of the Suspect tests in DPPt, but this one is even more serious than any other we've had because it has been applied to every other gen besides Gen V; we have banned an item that exists since GSC because we didn't like having a 20% chance of missing a Gen IV pokémon in a Gen V metagame every turn, even when Leftovers was statistically the best item. Banning Bright/Lax is the same as admitting anyone can ban anything that "annoys" them nowadays, as long as enough people bandwagon their nomination.
Do not ban Thundurus - Yeah this is more of a request to the Suspect voters than a nomination lol. Thundurus is broken in current common battle conditions but, if Drizzle gets banned, Thundurus may have its role changed, as it has that invaluable priority Rain Dance and you may bet people will use it to set up Rain to Kingdra and Manaphy, eating one of its moveslots (Thunder / RD / T-Wave / Taunt???? lol nasty plot where). Even if it uses their Rain instead, a 4-7 turn one might make it much more manageable. We also have Tornadus and lol Murkrow to do the job but still, I believe that having to waste two turns to set up a priority 5-8 turn Rain, while Politoed only needed one turn (and sometimes not even that, considered it could be surprisingly bulky if need be) to set up infinite Rain, may be enough of a halt to Rain's ubiquity on the metagame without being a dreaded "nerf" to Drizzle.
Ban Garchomp - Sand Veil was the cherry on top in DPPt, but now it's the elephant in the room. Garchomp didn't get anything new, but it didn't need to, it only needed to adapt; the sheer number of threats in OU we have to take into account nowadays mean losing any single pokémon opens up your team even more to the rest of the metagame, and that's exactly what Garchomp does with Sand Veil. 20% of the time (every turn), you're going to miss and lose one of your Garchomp checks/counters and then may even lose another one the following turn, meaning you may be "over-prepared" for it and still lose. No one needs dedicated Garchomp counters, and that's exactly what makes Garchomp even more dangerous: if you have a Virizion and your HP Ice miss, not only you lost your Garchomp check, but now you have one less pokémon to stop Rain/Sand. If your Dragon Pulse (yeah, Dragon Pulse) missed and your Lati fainted, you lost a pokémon to stop Sun. If your Bullet Punch missed and your Scizor died, how are you going to stop Reuniclus again...? No other "evasion abuser" can do this as Garchomp. None of them can abuse that single extra turn and plow a gigantic hole on your team. Only Garchomp can do this, and that's why it needs to go, not Sand Veil or some silly complex ban which is exactly what we should avoid doing and will never do again if Drizzle gets banned.
Free Manaphy - It was clearly broken (in my opinion) with Drizzle but, banning auto-Rain and making it have to either rely on Geniebros and Kingdra or set it up by itself will probably make it not only "manageable", but a perfectly acceptable OU and actually a very important piece of the metagame, working as an anti-Sun/Sand pokémon without being a burden on the team.
Free Brightpowder/Lax Incence - Ridiculous. The biggest evidence there's a ban-happiness "fog" surrounding Smogon since the beginning of the Suspect tests in DPPt, but this one is even more serious than any other we've had because it has been applied to every other gen besides Gen V; we have banned an item that exists since GSC because we didn't like having a 20% chance of missing a Gen IV pokémon in a Gen V metagame every turn, even when Leftovers was statistically the best item. Banning Bright/Lax is the same as admitting anyone can ban anything that "annoys" them nowadays, as long as enough people bandwagon their nomination.
Do not ban Thundurus - Yeah this is more of a request to the Suspect voters than a nomination lol. Thundurus is broken in current common battle conditions but, if Drizzle gets banned, Thundurus may have its role changed, as it has that invaluable priority Rain Dance and you may bet people will use it to set up Rain to Kingdra and Manaphy, eating one of its moveslots (Thunder / RD / T-Wave / Taunt???? lol nasty plot where). Even if it uses their Rain instead, a 4-7 turn one might make it much more manageable. We also have Tornadus and lol Murkrow to do the job but still, I believe that having to waste two turns to set up a priority 5-8 turn Rain, while Politoed only needed one turn (and sometimes not even that, considered it could be surprisingly bulky if need be) to set up infinite Rain, may be enough of a halt to Rain's ubiquity on the metagame without being a dreaded "nerf" to Drizzle.
Ban Cloyster do i really need to explain.
Gonna get shot for suggesting this, but I'd like to revise aldaron's proposal by nominating Kabutops and Kingdra.
Aldaron's proposal didn't nerfed rain - it only banned the inferior use of it. Filling your team with water types with sucky stats and relying on the shaky Hydro Pump or weak Waterfall isn't better than stalling, bulky boosting (something that most SwSw can't do) or spamming Thunder/Hurricane, as it often backfires in the form of a terrible grass/electric weakness,
And nominate to bring down Blaziken. He only works in sun or with no weather, and even then, is easily revenge killed by his own recoil and priority. And with only four moveslots there's always something that'll stop him, even without priority.
I feel like it's easier to balance out the three weathers than ban one or two of them and "watch what happens".
Aldaron's proposal didn't nerfed rain - it only banned the inferior use of it. Filling your team with water types with sucky stats and relying on the shaky Hydro Pump or weak Waterfall isn't better than stalling, bulky boosting (something that most SwSw can't do) or spamming Thunder/Hurricane, as it often backfires in the form of a terrible grass/electric weakness,
And nominate to bring down Blaziken. He only works in sun or with no weather, and even then, is easily revenge killed by his own recoil and priority. And with only four moveslots there's always something that'll stop him, even without priority.
I feel like it's easier to balance out the three weathers than ban one or two of them and "watch what happens".
I'm going to second this, but adding in Ludicolo. Even if more than just these 3 need to be banned, Swift Swimmers deserve their day in court (or a suspect test). Complex bans need to go, and a simple ban on broken Pokemon should get things back to how they should have been.
Dont make it but heres my nom
No nomination
Seriously, the metagame is pretty balanced so far. The only think i OMG hate is chompie and that because of a rare case of Missing which yeah it can make me lose and its all down to luck. Compared to the luck based things like DT, and other things like that, it dont really a big case and outside that, its not a really broken things.
As for weather, i like weather war as the meta of OU and it is pretty easy to content. All we need is to adapt to the fact of weather wars and accept it as the metagame. Saying it overcentralize because lose X you lose doesnt mean it overcentralize since it is the whole metagame you need to play. At least for me
Not to mention there is no real dominant weather here. Sand is good, but its more of a supporting essence to player who dont use sand. Rain is the power weather of the day and can be handled without a lot of hassle(outside of the Tornadus which i hate), and sun is pretty easy to handle with their worst summoner despite being the one with second best abuser
No nomination
Seriously, the metagame is pretty balanced so far. The only think i OMG hate is chompie and that because of a rare case of Missing which yeah it can make me lose and its all down to luck. Compared to the luck based things like DT, and other things like that, it dont really a big case and outside that, its not a really broken things.
As for weather, i like weather war as the meta of OU and it is pretty easy to content. All we need is to adapt to the fact of weather wars and accept it as the metagame. Saying it overcentralize because lose X you lose doesnt mean it overcentralize since it is the whole metagame you need to play. At least for me
Not to mention there is no real dominant weather here. Sand is good, but its more of a supporting essence to player who dont use sand. Rain is the power weather of the day and can be handled without a lot of hassle(outside of the Tornadus which i hate), and sun is pretty easy to handle with their worst summoner despite being the one with second best abuser
If drizzle goes, free Manaphy.
Imma throw myself into the fire here and put up some hopefully convincing arguments.
Drizzle: Back in the second nominations thread we did the Aldaron Proposal because we weren't sure if whether Drizzle was really broken or not. We did a complex ban to gain knowledge of Drizzle and make a better decision in the future. Well the future is now and Drizzle is still proving to be a broken threat.
When we actually went through with the Proposal, everyone thought Drizzle wouldn't be as broken. However, it turned out to be just the opposite. All the rain abusers we see today were being overshadowed by the swift swimmers power. Now there are so many abusers of Rain it's just terrible. Drizzle has still proven to be a prominent threat even with the Swift Swimmers gone. Drizzle needs to go. There's no more of a point to nerf something we all know is already broken. We're ignoring the real threat by keeping up with this now silly complex ban. We need to majorly discuss Drizzle and whether it's really broken or not. We can't ignore this any longer.
Garchomp: In the suspect thread I've seen alot of posts concerning Garchomp. Many of them stating a complex ban with Sand Veil. This isn't right.
Sand Veil itself is luck. We all know this. It gives an evasion boost equal to 1 DT without actually doing anything. Alot of people only see this and don't look at Garchomp itself. When you see all the abusers of Sand Veil, you either see stuff with a much better ability to abuse, something that just plain sux even with Sand Veil, and something that can kill off entire teams with Sand Veil. The last one is obviously Garchomp. However, the formers are pretty much every user of sand veil while the second is Cacturne. Garchomp is the only pokemon that has Sand Veil that can properly abuse it.
No other Sand Veil user has what Garchomp has. No other user has Garchomp's Power, Speed, and Bulk together. No other user can combine their stats with the real threat. The combination of Sand Veil, Substitute, and Swords Dance. It's this entire combination that makes Garchomp Broken, not just Sand Veil. Also with 1 of the parts of the combination gone Garchomp wouldn't be so broken. I can just as easily argue that Swords Dance makes Garchomp broken as Sand Veil. They're all part of the same combo that makes Garchomp broken.
I've heard alot of people argue for a Complex Sandstream / Sand Veil ban in OU. This makes no sense. When your doing a combination ban you should take all the abusers of said ability or move into account. In OU there's only 1 true abuser of Sand Veil and that's Garchomp. Gliscor has this ability as well but it's got a much better ability in Poison Heal. The only thing this combination ban would effect at all is Garchomp. Therefore this combination ban makes no sense. You may as well do a Garchomp / Sandstream or a Garchomp / Sand Veil complex ban. It's certainly less thick headed. However, there's no point in doing either one of those either.
Sand Veil is part of Garchomp. I see that without it Garchomp wouldn't be so broken but there's really no point in doing a complex ban for Garchomp. Garchomp is the problem not sand veil. Ban Garchomp.
Drizzle: Back in the second nominations thread we did the Aldaron Proposal because we weren't sure if whether Drizzle was really broken or not. We did a complex ban to gain knowledge of Drizzle and make a better decision in the future. Well the future is now and Drizzle is still proving to be a broken threat.
When we actually went through with the Proposal, everyone thought Drizzle wouldn't be as broken. However, it turned out to be just the opposite. All the rain abusers we see today were being overshadowed by the swift swimmers power. Now there are so many abusers of Rain it's just terrible. Drizzle has still proven to be a prominent threat even with the Swift Swimmers gone. Drizzle needs to go. There's no more of a point to nerf something we all know is already broken. We're ignoring the real threat by keeping up with this now silly complex ban. We need to majorly discuss Drizzle and whether it's really broken or not. We can't ignore this any longer.
Garchomp: In the suspect thread I've seen alot of posts concerning Garchomp. Many of them stating a complex ban with Sand Veil. This isn't right.
Sand Veil itself is luck. We all know this. It gives an evasion boost equal to 1 DT without actually doing anything. Alot of people only see this and don't look at Garchomp itself. When you see all the abusers of Sand Veil, you either see stuff with a much better ability to abuse, something that just plain sux even with Sand Veil, and something that can kill off entire teams with Sand Veil. The last one is obviously Garchomp. However, the formers are pretty much every user of sand veil while the second is Cacturne. Garchomp is the only pokemon that has Sand Veil that can properly abuse it.
No other Sand Veil user has what Garchomp has. No other user has Garchomp's Power, Speed, and Bulk together. No other user can combine their stats with the real threat. The combination of Sand Veil, Substitute, and Swords Dance. It's this entire combination that makes Garchomp Broken, not just Sand Veil. Also with 1 of the parts of the combination gone Garchomp wouldn't be so broken. I can just as easily argue that Swords Dance makes Garchomp broken as Sand Veil. They're all part of the same combo that makes Garchomp broken.
I've heard alot of people argue for a Complex Sandstream / Sand Veil ban in OU. This makes no sense. When your doing a combination ban you should take all the abusers of said ability or move into account. In OU there's only 1 true abuser of Sand Veil and that's Garchomp. Gliscor has this ability as well but it's got a much better ability in Poison Heal. The only thing this combination ban would effect at all is Garchomp. Therefore this combination ban makes no sense. You may as well do a Garchomp / Sandstream or a Garchomp / Sand Veil complex ban. It's certainly less thick headed. However, there's no point in doing either one of those either.
Sand Veil is part of Garchomp. I see that without it Garchomp wouldn't be so broken but there's really no point in doing a complex ban for Garchomp. Garchomp is the problem not sand veil. Ban Garchomp.
I'm not in the top list, but I'll still vote...
Purely ban Garchomp (and not only the combo Garchomp + Sand Veil) because even out of sand, he is still too dangerous with his trollish Base Speed of 102 and excellent bulk. If Drizzle is banned, then bring down Manaphy. Also bring down Blaziken: Aqua Jet, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch and Reuniclus' Psychic under Trick Room still can overwhelm him.
Purely ban Garchomp (and not only the combo Garchomp + Sand Veil) because even out of sand, he is still too dangerous with his trollish Base Speed of 102 and excellent bulk. If Drizzle is banned, then bring down Manaphy. Also bring down Blaziken: Aqua Jet, Conkeldurr's Mach Punch and Reuniclus' Psychic under Trick Room still can overwhelm him.
not on the top list but i will also vote.here it goes:
i nominate the complex ban of sand veil with sand stream and snow cloak with snow warning!if this doesn't happen then just ban garchomp...
also why people are even nominating smashpass when all of its users are not even uu???i can't really understand how if something is supposed to be broken noone uses it...
i nominate the complex ban of sand veil with sand stream and snow cloak with snow warning!if this doesn't happen then just ban garchomp...
also why people are even nominating smashpass when all of its users are not even uu???i can't really understand how if something is supposed to be broken noone uses it...
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