alright I am going to begin by breaking down your last post into 3 parts and addressing them because that's the theme of this entire post, me just breaking shit down.
speaking of hormones, the pros you are talking about snack a lot on pizza and snicker bars before competitions. i know this because i'm friends with 2 ifbb pros and it's been admitted several times in interviews (can't be arsed to search right now). what separates a competitor from another is genetics and ability to tolerate higher doses of steroids (which is basically genetics). Please don't come up with that natural bodybuilding bs (designer steroids / no tests for HGH / no serious testing).
you know sometimes i wonder if you see exactly the weapons you lay before me to use against you with your responses. I don't use them, but the truth is that it was never even necessary for me to use any of my findings.
It is so painfully clear that you are referring to carb loading and carb depletion directly before a competition or a shoot. What pros do
directly before the competition is not what i meant when i used the example of bodybuilders and the regimen/diet they follow to get ready for a competition. We both know thats not what i meant. Carb loading/depleting is done usually during the last week before its time for them to hit the stage. it even goes all the way directly up the very final minutes before a competition. There are a lot of last minute preparations to be done in order to get ready for the stage and make sure one looks as big, defined and just damn good as possible. What i was talking about however was the actual diet done while ACTUALLY training for a competition. i am talking about when they start, anywhere from 6-7 months to 3 months depending how much you have to lose before the competition. THAT was the example, so please dont come at me with your pizza snicker bars bullshit. the diet of someone getting ready for serious competition starts out strict already, but then just gets even stricter as the months go by to the point where even i sometimes wonder how the fuck these guys manage it time and time again without slipping.
Honestly sometimes i think you are banking on me not knowing some of the things/terms you throw my way and hoping i accept them blindly. lol, "snack a lot on pizza and snicker bars" whiles training for a competition, get the fuck out please. In fact let me further educate you on the concept of carb load/depletion before a competition, its a practice that dates back as far as the late 60's. And here i thought you were one for the whole, what was it that you said again?
i can tell you a host of things that are popularly believed and are complete bs... it's 2013 man.
oh thats right. also, just like anything so old that it dates back to the 60s/70s/80s, not everyone does it. some have found better ways or just now do not believe in it. Here comes my first Link. I'll quote the paragraph that matters, but also link to the entire page just in case
Carb Loading & Water Intake...
I do not carb deplete or carb load during the last week. I have tried all kinds of crazy stuff like this in the past and I found that it is best to just diet right up to the day of the show. Carb depleting and carb loading is too "hit and miss" you risk screwing up your conditioning, it may make you look a little better, or it could make you look a lot worse. You are better off playing it safe by sticking to your diet and then just slightly increase your carb intake slightly for a couple days before the show (i.e. instead of eating 1 potato at a meal, eat 2 potatoes, etc.).
By
Lee Hayward - A pro bodybuilder whos been competing in bodybuilding competitions since 1995, that's over a decade of experience.
Now here is doctor, yeap, Ph.d. He also has something to say on the matter of carb loading in general.
Meet DR. L. LEE COYNE
Summary
20 years as a University Professor of Exercise Physiology.
30 years of Nutrition coaching, writing and speaking.
Published 4 books - Most recent "Fat Won't Make You Fat" and "The Little Book of Nutrition Nuggets"
Published over 400 Articles in Health, Fitness and Nutrition Magazines and Newspapers.
Conducted over 1,000 seminars and workshops over the last 20 years.
And finally, and perhaps the funniest to me, a simple link to how ehow.com, a website for dummies (in a positive manner like those "books for dummies"), explains the steps to preparing for a bodybuilding competition.
They make no mention of carb loading/carb depletion before a competition. if your two pro friends eat pizza and snicker bars whiles training for a competition, not only would they not be part of the more successful portion of the group i alluded to in my original example, but they wouldn't even make the random selection.
Also, by the way
a more interesting thing to talk about is hormones. hormones are the only thing that shit all over calories in vs calories out. however, your body is programmed to keep these hormones very stable. you might get a small peak or dip but these are automatically rectified by your body. Since we are talking about about natural bodybuilding, you get my point.
Hormones are not the only thing that shits all over "Calories in vs Calories out is everything", but i didnt quote the above for that. i quoted the above so i could tell you that you are REALLY down playing the impact of hormones..... like, severely. out of curiosity, do you even know how many hormones are relevant to the topic when bringing them up? do you know them by name? and yes, by the way, it would be very interesting to talk about. shoot me a VM/PM whenever and we can open that whole can or worms. In the mean time lets go back to talking about all the other things that shit all over your very dear and almighty logic (no, seriously, i still cant believe you find it hard to believe that there is something beyond calories in vs calories out and that everything stops there)
Alright, on to the last part of your last post
i suppose you're talking about micronutrients such as fiber and vitamins right? micros are only important for overall health and well-being. body composition wise, you will get the same results with "dirty foods" or "clean foods" as long as the macros + total cals are the same.
lets focus for a second on macros here. When i started out, i was counting calories and it was all about calories in vs calories out. it really was EVERYTHING as you put it, but then i discovered the concept of counting macros, etc, and my entire diet world was flipped upside down. The concept of macros alone should be enough to prove that the simple equation of calories in vs calories out isnt everything, because when you start counting macros, that equation grows. you go deeper and much more beyond just counting calories. You go beyond the calorie itself in general, you break that fucker down to get your desired exact intake of fat, carbs and protein THAT alone, the extension of that simple calories in vs calories out equation to now include something else such as macros should open up your damn mind to the possibility that yes, calories in vs calories out is not everything and that it alone cannot explain everything. its not just that fucking simply
after discovering macros i was still hitting the same number of calories. my deficit/surplus did not change, but exactly what i ate to hit that number sure fucking did. my diet changed completely. It was no longer as simple. my equation now extended beyond just having to eat x amount of calories and expending y amount of calories. Each time you and i advise someone (such as HBK for instance) that its just a thing of calories in vs calories out, we are never truly giving them the entire picture. we know we are lying despite it possibly being for the best at the moment. Someday HBK would come across the concept of macros among a few other things, and his diet will also flip upside down. it wont be as simple as we made it out to be at the beginning.
oh yeah, lets touch on variables since i said we would. I get the impression you like to use those. You've brought them up twice so far. Variables are the worst thing to bring up for your case by the way because they are perhaps the biggest things that shit on your logic of calories in vs calories out is everything. lets start with genetics, genetics come into play in almost every aspect of the fitness world so thats a very weak thing to use. Genetics have also never guaranteed one person will triumph over another in a competition. they do certainly play a hand and do give an advantage, and the very top will be dominated with those blessed with better genetics, but even at that level its not the guy with the best genes in that group that takes the trophy home. i have the worse genes in my group of friends and yet i have the best body, and some of these guys work out just as much as me. i had some catching up to do and it took me years. i had to work harder than my more blessed friends, but i didn't mind and now here we are today. also its probably because they stopped at calories in vs calories or do not scrutinize the calorie like i do.
In the world of fitness, variables are things we live with because there are simply too many and it would be an undying battle. here let me list you some more variables; sleep, stress, pollution, level of Alcohol consumption, etc.
Calories In/Calories Out Model Is Flawed: A very cool, very recent and informative article from 5 nutrition and public health experts at Harvard University that focuses on exactly how much "variables" shit all over your logic there, nos. Also below is just one of my favorite lines from that article
Dr. Dariush Mozaffarian, a cardiologist and epidemiologist at the Harvard School of Public Health and lead author of the study, said in an interview. “What you eat makes quite a difference. Just counting calories won’t matter much unless you look at the kinds of calories you’re eating.”
Some more links for you:
Is It That Simple Calories In Vs Calories Out to Lose Weight?
A YouTube video from two individuals. man, these guys have really made a name for themselves on YouTube and developed quite the following, lol.
LINK 2: Not a doctor or anything like that (to my knowledge at least), but i really liked his take on explaining why the simple equation of calories in vs calories out isn't all there is to it.
in a perfect world we could do the math and everyone would lose 1-2 pounds a week and reach their goals right on time, but our bodies are far too complex for that. Calories in / calories out is a good starting point but only a starting point.
And finally for this section, here is an article even i wasn't 100% in agreement with, but he brings up some very interesting points and certainly makes you think. Its also hard to argue because this guy, Ken Mierke, holds a degree in Exercise Physiology with minors in Nutrition, Biology, and Psychology. He has lost 75 pounds and is also a two-time world champion triathlete.
The Calories In/Calories Out Paradigm
A powerful attraction of the calories in/calories out paradigm is its apparent simplicity. Unfortunately, the human body isn’t so simple and that is why this seemingly wonderful formula doesn't work.
the above is why i really am not 100% with this guy. i mean, he just flat out has given up on the Calories In/Calories concept.
also you mentioned your two pro friends, well i've been going to the same 2 places for over 2 years now and have developed some great friendships with professionals as well. I know the staff more than new hirees or ones that have been there for only a short period of time. I only had yesterday (so far), and i asked 3 of the personal trainers the following question
Is weight loss and weight gain really as simple as calories in vs calories out?
IS calories in vs calories out EVERYTHING?
i basically asked the same question twice, yes. anyways, the answer did not surprise me. it was a unanimous no, but to no surprise they did make sure to let me know that calories in vs calories out is VERY important. lol
Part 2: A new dimension of thinking.
Look, no one here is calling bullshit on calories in/calories out . stopping just there works for the majority of people, but that also reflects what the goals of the majority of people are. You can link me all the countless forums that preach just calories in/calories out, and you can also link to the research done on it, but that serves to do nothing because again, no one is debunking that concept. it works, but there is a "beyond" to it that you can delve in. There is so much more to it than just calories in vs calories out and the deeper you go the better your results. also if you can find an article that says there is nothing after calories in vs calories out, and that it really is everything, you will have a new believer in me.
alright now to this "new dimension of thinking" business. There is something you have to realize here, and that is, You and I think of fitness very differently. From the way you talk, i can only assume that you focus on the physical of fitness. by that i mean the outside. For me it goes beyond the sculpting of the body. i am very interested in over all health, in one's well being. Diet affects so much more than physical appearance, our diet affects our physical, mental and social health. What we eat goes a longer way than most people think. People with great bodies go into a check up with their doctor and are blown away when they are told they have too much this, or their x is too high or low. like, how dare the inside not reflect the outside? i should be as fit as a horse right? everything should be perfect. I am very interested in longevity. over all well being is very important, and accepting that calories in vs calories out is only another piece of the puzzle instead of the whole puzzle is one of the first things you will learn when you make the jump from "bro-this"/focusing on just what you see in the mirror, to actual over all health.
if you only and truly believed that calories in/calories out is everything, then i can tell you that if we both were to get checked up at 60 or 70 years old, i would be a much more healthier old man than you. i would probably also have aged better than you due to paying more attention to what i eat rather than stopping at cals in/cals out. as far as how we would look on the outside, i dont plan on stopping rigorous exercise on top of my philosophies so i'll probably look good enough not to care to be honest. maybe we could go for a jog after that doctors appointment and see who has to play catch up, and yes, if you feel weights are more your strong suit, we can hit the gym as well.
I dont like to play this card because nothing is official, but i am thinking about switching my career path. i am still in college and anything is possible if i have the funds i suppose. i would love to learn more on the human body, cardiovascular health and nutrition. also the human brain fascinates me but that has nothing to do with the fitness world. i don't really want to be a personal trainer though, so i'm not sure where i would go after school. I am already doing a lot of reading up on my own so i could just continue t=down that path and keep this strictly as a hobby i suppose.
