Pokémon BW2 In-game Tier List Mark II [See Post #840]

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atsync

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First of all, I've decided that we are going to make seprate entries for Pokémon who evolve by trading if the tiering placement is different. For example, if Elekid that stops at Electabuzz is considered High Tier and Elekid that fully evolves into Electivire through trading is also considered High Tier, they will be combined into one entry. The opposite would apply to, for example, Shelmet and Accelgor. Accelgor is clearly better than Shelmet.
Agreeing with this. Exactly what I would have done.

So, when it comes to your suggestion for Onix atsync, I think you should reconsider its placement a bit. Even if it is for Onix with a trade to Steelix. Metal Coat can't be found until after the main game, where it is available in Clay Tunnel and the Black City shop. The only way to get Metal Coat within the main game is to find a Magnemite holding it, and that's only a 5% chance. I haven't used Onix or Steelix myself, but based on that fact alone, and that Onix is rare in itself, I would see it as a Low Tier Pokémon at best. Bottom if it's w/o trading.
Metal Coat can actually be found at the bottom of Chargestone Cave, so it can be found long before the elite 4.

Having said that, I should say that I did almost put it in Low because of its rarity and its lack of speed as a Steelix (I didn't find its low Attack as an Onix to be that big of a deal), but I figured that since its Steel typing pretty much provides an autowin against a large number of gym leader/elite 4 pokemon (and unlike Skarmory, Steelix can actually be an offensive pokemon), Mid could be justified.

I'm not changing my placement for Onix yet. I'd rather see what others think from testing it. If other people think it should be Low I'll change it.
 
I'm leaning towards Top for Sandile. Its main downside is that it's pretty frail and not very strong when you first get it (mine had a Lonely nature, so that may have made the first problem worse). It has awesome power, and as Krookodile, it's a nuke. Its coverage is outstanding, and while its bulk and typing aren't exactly good, it can usually survive a moderately powered hit to 2HKO and get the Moxie boost if need be. Speaking of which, Moxie is absurdly cool. The fact that Krookodile doesn't need its whole movepool is really helpful too; having it as a Strength user was really convenient, and Crunch/EQ/Rock Slide did the job just fine.

I know there was a huge debate over Azurill, but I just don't see it as a mid-tier Pokemon. It's a complete wrecking ball throughout most of the game. It lags a fair amount in the endgame, I'll admit to that, but it's an amazing failsafe. If you need a Pokemon who will survive a hit and OHKO back (yes, Azumarill is surprisingly bulky), Azumarill gets it done. Mine lived through 2 Hydreigon Dragon Pulses (it only would have needed to live through 1 if I'd used Superpower, but I thought Ice Punch would KO...not quite), so I didn't have to worry about Hydreigon, which was really convenient. I don't know how it does in BW2, but for example, Oshawott didn't perform as well for me in BW1 as Azurill did in BW2. I don't want to start a debate; that was just my experience with it.

Given how amazing Lucario is, Riolu was surprisingly disappointing. I think it's still high tier; it can sweep all sorts of things quite comfortably, and Grimsley was just the easiest match ever. But I didn't really like its coverage very much in the endgame; Rock Slide wasn't quite strong enough, and since mine was Adamant, I doubt Shadow Ball or something like it would have done much better than Return/Extremespeed (used as a failsafe, since priority is sometimes cool). That said, +2 Close Combat is incredibly, and Return is usually a good enough backup. The problem is that Lucario dies anything supereffective (and it has plenty of weaknesses), so you may have trouble getting that crucial Swords Dance.

Axew is just right in High tier. It's the best late-game Pokemon I've ever used; it easily manages one Dragon Dance, then kills everything at +1. It doesn't even need anything for a coverage move; I had fun with False Swipe and Cut. That said, it comes pretty late and is only "pretty powerful" (not "impossibly powerful") as Fraxure. Fraxure, by the way, is a great candidate for Eviolite. And, as a side note, going through the whole big lead-up scene to Kyurem-B, just to outspeed and OHKO with a Haxorus Dragon Claw is hilarious. I used a Dragon Gem to be safe, but Draco Plate probably would have done the job.

Snivy is also just right; it's so incredibly disappointing a lot of the time, but it sets up with ease on a ton of physical attackers. My team didn't like taking powerful hits from Marshall at all, but Snivy just set up on Throh (thanks, Leech Seed!) and lol'd its way through the rest of the team. If it didn't do that job so well, it would suck horribly. Grass is a terrible, terrible type. That said, I could see Calm Mind with Dragon Pulse doing a good job at covering some of those problems, Flying and Dragon types in particular.

Litwick is awesome. It's good enough late-game to make up for how horrendously bad it is until level 42. I didn't try using it against Marshall (see Snivy), but I wouldn't recommend it; I don't think Psychic is quite powerful enough, and it will die to Rock-type moves. But against anything without a supereffective move, or anything slow and not-super-bulky it can hit supereffectively, it's pretty awesome.
 
Metal Coat can actually be found at the bottom of Chargestone Cave, so it can be found long before the elite 4.
My bad. Looked it up on Bulbapedia this time and it's indeed in the Chargestone Cave, not Clay Tunnel. Serebii.net: always a bit inaccurate everywhere.

In that case, I can see it going Mid, but that low encounter rate is off-putting.

I know there was a huge debate over Azurill, but I just don't see it as a mid-tier Pokemon. It's a complete wrecking ball throughout most of the game. It lags a fair amount in the endgame, I'll admit to that, but it's an amazing failsafe. If you need a Pokemon who will survive a hit and OHKO back (yes, Azumarill is surprisingly bulky), Azumarill gets it done. Mine lived through 2 Hydreigon Dragon Pulses (it only would have needed to live through 1 if I'd used Superpower, but I thought Ice Punch would KO...not quite), so I didn't have to worry about Hydreigon, which was really convenient. I don't know how it does in BW2, but for example, Oshawott didn't perform as well for me in BW1 as Azurill did in BW2. I don't want to start a debate; that was just my experience with it.
This has already been settled, and Azurill now resides in the High Tier, so no need to worry. :)

EDIT @ below:

http://www.serebii.net/black2white2/items.shtml Not here. That's the page I was looking at.
 
Given how amazing Lucario is, Riolu was surprisingly disappointing. I think it's still high tier; it can sweep all sorts of things quite comfortably, and Grimsley was just the easiest match ever. But I didn't really like its coverage very much in the endgame; Rock Slide wasn't quite strong enough, and since mine was Adamant, I doubt Shadow Ball or something like it would have done much better than Return/Extremespeed (used as a failsafe, since priority is sometimes cool). That said, +2 Close Combat is incredibly, and Return is usually a good enough backup. The problem is that Lucario dies anything supereffective (and it has plenty of weaknesses), so you may have trouble getting that crucial Swords Dance.
Lucario only has three weaknesses. Wouldn't say that's "plenty".
 
They are common weaknesses though, fighting and ground. Fire isn't so common, but just the amount of fight and ground type pokemon and moves in-game put Lucario at a slight disadvantage in terms of weaknesses. Say, a grass type... Sunflora. Sunflora is weak to ice, bug, fire, flying and poison. Poison in most games is extremely rare, excluding the original games where Sunflora didn't exist (:P), making it like he has only 4 weaknesses. Ice is also rare in (and out) -game so it's almost as if Sunflora has the same amount on weaknesses as Lucario. It's simple really, Lucario has 3 common types as weaknesses, letting possible pokemon with lots of weaknesses have around the same amount if lots of them are rare.
 
They are common weaknesses though, fighting and ground. Fire isn't so common, but just the amount of fight and ground type pokemon and moves in-game put Lucario at a slight disadvantage in terms of weaknesses. Say, a grass type... Sunflora. Sunflora is weak to ice, bug, fire, flying and poison. Poison in most games is extremely rare, excluding the original games where Sunflora didn't exist (:P), making it like he has only 4 weaknesses. Ice is also rare in (and out) -game so it's almost as if Sunflora has the same amount on weaknesses as Lucario. It's simple really, Lucario has 3 common types as weaknesses, letting possible pokemon with lots of weaknesses have around the same amount if lots of them are rare.
Poison is extremely rare, lol what? It's more common than fighting/fire, and about on par with ground.

Also, based on your logic (which I passionately disagree with), Lucario would have 2 weaknesses compared to Sunflora's 3 since Fire is less common as well.
 
Earthquake is Luke's biggest problem. By the endgame, it seems like almost everything has it; even some stuff that doesn't has annoying moves like Brave Bird that will nail poor frail Lucario. Fighting moves are obviously a pain as well, as are Again, it would be easier if Lucario were stronger, but I found that Rock Slide (and, by extension, Ice Punch) often fell a little short of a OHKO. Lucario's resistances were occasionally useful, since they allow it to switch in on moves that would otherwise be problematic (my team was VERY short on resistances). I didn't like how it would often lose a third to a half of its health on a resisted move, though. In a one-on-one fight, Lucario's resistances rarely do it any favors, because almost everything can at least hit it neutral. It takes neutral damage or worse from Fire, Water, Electric, Flying, Psychic, Ground, and Fighting. Only a few Pokemon don't have any of those moves, and even for Pokemon who don't have any of them, you have to watch out for burn and paralysis. Lucario wasn't terrible by any means, but it's far from amazing. That said, I'd be interested to see if a special Lucario has better luck; it does have higher SpAtk than Atk, and Shadow Ball has a little more base power than Rock Slide/Ice Punch. It can't turn into a murder weapon like it does with Swords Dance, though, and the lack of supereffective coverage against Flying-types would hurt (unless you're using a physical move, of course).

Grass types' weaknesses are also terrible, there's no getting around that. Serperior was often pretty helpless, because it relies on setting up to do damage, and it's hard to set up when a relatively weak supereffective move hits your for a third to a half of your health. Against foes who can only hit it neutral, Leftovers + Leech Seed gave it plenty of time to set up. Supereffective hits messed it up too badly, though, especially given the high chance of a crit over several turns of setup. Poison is definitely more common than you think it should be, especially random non-Poison types with Poison Jab/Sludge Bomb.
 
List of Pokemon in Unova Dex who learns Brave Bird by level up:
Ducklett (41), Swanna (47), Rufflet (59), Braviary (63), Vullaby (59), Mandibuzz (63)

I cannot fathom how Lucario is ever going to eat a Brave Bird, considering that it shouldn't be fighting a Swanna anyway (unless you're using what, Thunderpunch Lucario? o.O)

Please. Lucario may be a Steel-type, but it is also a Fighting-type and you should NOT be using Lucario, or any other Fighting-type for that matter, against a Flying-type.

As to how Rock Slide/Ice Punch can't reliably OHKO, my advice is: lrn2swordsdance

Also regarding special Lucario, the lack of any Special moves outside of the coverage-overlapping Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball doesn't do it much favours (I'd still take Dark Pulse since it comes earlier anyway and Shadow Ball doesn't really bring anything new). I suppose Psychic could work, but it's probably a bad idea to use special Lucario.
 
Ok, so I'm going to give some more suggestions here, and let you guys discuss if they are something you agree to or not. This time I'm going to give 7 Pokémon to discuss.


Skitty for Bottom


Buneary for Middle


Karrablast for Bottom


Shelmet for Bottom


Clefairy for Low


Vullaby for Bottom


Rufflet for Low


These 7 are up for immediate tiering placement due to their seemingly low use. Discuss amongst yourselves and let me know if you agree to these placements, or if they should be tiered higher or lower. Of course I am willing to share my thougts behind these, if you want me to.

So, let's keep this going!
 
I completely agree with Skitty for bottom. The only niche it has in normailze, which leaves it completely helpless to any normal resist. It's stats are sub-par compared to.. well I suppose anything except patrat (wow, something better than patrat, that has to push it to top! :P) but on a more serious note, the only niche it has over other normal types is a worthless ability! If you want an early normal type, use lillipup or even dunsparce over skitty!
 
If trade evolutions are in, Escavalier and Accelgor should be higher than Bottom (can't imagine very well where exactly though as I have no ways of trying them out). Escavalier and Accelgor can quickly become good fighters if tutored Bug Bite and Bug Buzz respectively, former with great bulk and latter outspeeding everything.

Besides Onix, they're the only two Pokemon in this game that I can think of that need an evolution badly in order to function decently.
 
Although, in the case of Shelmet and Karrablast, isn't it very easy to just offer one for the other on the GTS, then wait for a day? Getting Steelix pretty much mandates having a friend/other DS to trade back, while the GTS just requires a WIFI connection. If you want an Accelgor, all you have to do is spend ten minutes in a coffee shop.
 
Although, in the case of Shelmet and Karrablast, isn't it very easy to just offer one for the other on the GTS, then wait for a day? Getting Steelix pretty much mandates having a friend/other DS to trade back, while the GTS just requires a WIFI connection. If you want an Accelgor, all you have to do is spend ten minutes in a coffee shop.
Ok, time to wrap some things together.

First of all, I've decided that we are going to make seprate entries for Pokémon who evolve by trading if the tiering placement is different. For example, if Elekid that stops at Electabuzz is considered High Tier and Elekid that fully evolves into Electivire through trading is also considered High Tier, they will be combined into one entry. The opposite would apply to, for example, Shelmet and Accelgor. Accelgor is clearly better than Shelmet.
i dont even
especially when considering this very quote is right at the top of the page
ok now as for the 7 mons...

Skitty doesn't offer much to the table outside of the otherwise situational Attract/Cute Charm, maybe Assist but that's kinda it. Agreeing with bottom here.

Buneary has immediate 102 BP Frustration due to 0 base happiness, but evolving it will be painful since you need to grind all the way to 220. I guess some massages/Join Avenue abuse might fix it, but it's probably something I wouldn't want to use in the long term, since Lopunny's stats aren't anything stellar. Low.

Karrablast and Shelmet do absolutely nothing without trades lol. Clear bottom.

Clefairy might make it to mid due to having a workable TM movepool, and you have the TMs at that point to abuse it. While its definitely not going to be Starmie anytime soon, it might be a worthy filler. Might.

Vullaby evolves too late and lacks the offenses/movepool to back up the shit pre-evo stage. Bottom. (when R4 mandibuzz itself has movepool issues, i don't think vullaby performs any better)

Rufflet may be passable with STAB Return and good offenses, Low seems kinda ok for it :| At least you can get it before Marlon now, so it might be able to contribute some neutral offense.
 

Its_A_Random

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Skitty is bottom, agreed. Buneary, idk. Karrablast is fragile, meh coverage, mediocre speed, so agree with bottom. Shelmet can go without saying that it is bottom tier—really slow, crappy offences, average defences complimented by mediocre HP, & a very defensive orientated move-pool. Clefairy it has an amazing movepool, instant evolution, & decent Sp. Attack & bulk, but the timing which you get it means that low seems quite fair to me.
Vullaby? Pretty clear bottom tier to me. Rufflet is a decent end-game attacker who can be quite handy against Marshal, & possibly Caitilin & Grimsley to warrant using it, so Low is pretty fair, especially given you get Braviary on Route 4.

In general, I agree with the proposed placements. Also TM13, Rufflet can only be obtained on Route 23, iirc, so no Rufflet before Marlon... :/
 
Considering how many times ice punch on pokemon has been stated I'm assuming bp isnt really an issue, in that case Raticate is a legitimate threat in bw2 as it has guts boosted facade after drayden and the still powerful stab return before then, it also benefits from a priority move in case its 97 base speed isnt enough, naturally as a normal type it doesnt have any particular advantage over a significant trainer nor any resistances to speak of but its still a strong threat that is obtained early on easily that gets a natural swords dance, to overpower any opponent you might ever face. All in all I'd say it deserves to be mid tier as its certainly more useful than the other normal types besides Cincinno
 
In general, I agree with the proposed placements. Also TM13, Rufflet can only be obtained on Route 23, iirc, so no Rufflet before Marlon... :/
Pretty sure Vullaby can be obtained on the route between Humilau and Giant Chasm, so wouldn't Rufflet appear there too? o.O

edit: ok wtf im very sure i saw a vullaby there, but doesn't seem like rufflet/vullaby's there either. asdf
 

breh

強いだね
Clefairy should go in mid; I thought it was decent, actually, as a cosmic power / assist power abuser for the elite four especially. It's good at setting up vs. iris and then just running through most of her team with assist power + 1 SpA item. I ran return / assist power / cosmic power / moonlight iirc. (you also get it at level 50, which means you can pretty much neglect to train it)
 
Clefairy should go in mid; I thought it was decent, actually, as a cosmic power / assist power abuser for the elite four especially. It's good at setting up vs. iris and then just running through most of her team with assist power + 1 SpA item. I ran return / assist power / cosmic power / moonlight iirc. (you also get it at level 50, which means you can pretty much neglect to train it)
For those with English versions, it's called Stored Power.
 
Clefairy should go in mid; I thought it was decent, actually, as a cosmic power / assist power abuser for the elite four especially. It's good at setting up vs. iris and then just running through most of her team with assist power + 1 SpA item. I ran return / assist power / cosmic power / moonlight iirc. (you also get it at level 50, which means you can pretty much neglect to train it)
It is a good question which endgame Pokemon deserve a spot in Mid (no higher I'd argue) because of the availability issues. I'd argue that Lapras, Starmie, Gliscor and Sawk are good for Mid. Not so sure about Clefable - no good STAB, slow, needs several turns to set up. Your risk of your set-up ending in a stray crit is very high. Whereas Gliscor and Sawk do not require much set up at all, and Starmie/Lapras help out with dragons and the 8th gym.

Has anybody seriously tried using Sneasel for the Unova League?
 
It is a good question which endgame Pokemon deserve a spot in Mid (no higher I'd argue) because of the availability issues. I'd argue that Lapras, Starmie, Gliscor and Sawk are good for Mid. Not so sure about Clefable - no good STAB, slow, needs several turns to set up. Your risk of your set-up ending in a stray crit is very high. Whereas Gliscor and Sawk do not require much set up at all, and Starmie/Lapras help out with dragons and the 8th gym.

Has anybody seriously tried using Sneasel for the Unova League?
I will whenever I find my DSI
 
Ok, so it's been some time since I put up those suggestions, and I think I got a pretty clear picture of what you guys want. Here is what I'm going to right now:

Add:

Skitty to Bottom Tier
Bunneary to Low Tier
Shelmet to Bottom Tier
Karrablast to Bottom Tier
Vullaby to Bottom Tier
Rufflet to Low Tier

I'm going to leave Clefairy in the open for a little while longer, as it seems the opinions are quite split on it. I will bring more Pokémon that fall into this case in a couple of days. A new preliminary tier list might also be posted soon.

So apparently no one has any problems with my opnions a couple of pages back.
Sorry, I was going to respond to this post, but so many things happened around me so I forgot.

I have absolutely no problems with what you posted. It's great that you share your thoughts and experiences. But what I'd like you to do, however, is to go a little bit more into detail on Zebstrika's and Leavanny's disadvantages (and a little more on the advantages as well). Also, you seem to have forgotten to actually give them a tier placement, so I can't really do much; if you do, I'll see to it that your opinion on these Pokémon will be taken into account.
 
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