1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Pokémon+ Luck-free metagame : Server up and running !

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Innocent Criminal, Jun 29, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,258
    I actually like playing Pokémon, and unlike so many ungrateful assholes in the community, I'm not going to give Gamefreak a hard time for a few things that I don't really like about Pokémon, I'll just accept that that's the way the game actually works

    And the obvious response: If I wanted a game with no luck involved, I'd just play chess instead
  2. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    This is pretty much for players who wants to play Pokemon like chess while still playing Pokemon. This is apparently not for you.
  3. skitz0phrenic

    skitz0phrenic

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2011
    Messages:
    425
    What are you doing here then?
    Smogon doesn't play purist Pokemon either, so please, enough hypocritical comments.

    This is simply a metagame for those who value the competitive merits of consistency and responsibility for all of your mistakes and losses.
  4. kay-tay

    kay-tay

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    73
    All of this sounds justified, I would never be on this server though, just through personal tastes, but one thing I should point out is about Sheer Force, which SHOULD NOT grant a boost.

    Think about it, Sheer Force is a compromise, you give up secondary effects for added power. But, since you got rid of these effects, there is no longer a compromise, because even without Sheer Force you wouldn't see the benefit from them anyway.
  5. JimBob

    JimBob

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2005
    Messages:
    1,269
    Why is everyone so up in arms about this? This is just a custom server, it isn't trying to take over standard. If you don't like it, you can completely ignore it and it shouldn't have any effect on your enjoyment of the standard game. Did you guys get equally angry when the CAP server was created?
  6. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,694
    I'm probably one of the people who argue most strongly that luck is part of the game and should be accepted, however people who think in a similar way to me should be OVERJOYED that this server has been made, not complaining. Now every player who does not wish to play in the standard metagame where games are turned round by crits, speed ties, unlikely effects, and all that, has somewhere else to go. They can go to the luck free server, and play with like-minded people. Hopefully this will reduce the volume of complaints about the standard and luck filled by design mechanics.

    So, play! Test and refine the mechanics, make somewhere that you don't need to manage luck at all, see if it makes you happy :)
  7. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,258
    I'm not being hypocritical, so you should stop being ignorant.

    In the VGCs which are run by Nintendo, there are certain banlists and rules to follow by, so you are saying that Nintendo doesn't "play purist Pokémon", and you are also saying that the only valid way to play Pokémon is no rules (or Street Pokémon)

    So please, enough trying to make yourself sound smarter than other people
  8. Darusare

    Darusare

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    140
    Well this server basically reignites the brightpowder lax inscence debate
    Since the ruling on that people are afriad that this may become standard
    That is a fairly legitimate concern
    And this server is definately the result of the a large portion of the communitys dislike for luck
    this server may have been made in good intention
    But its not nessicarily seen as such
  9. PokéMontage

    PokéMontage

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2010
    Messages:
    359
    This is pretty cool. While I am also an advocate of people learning to accept the luck factor as a part of what makes Pokemon, well, Pokemon, there is nothing wrong with trying out some new alternatives, especially when there was a lot of thought put into it. The fact that it could never replace the actual game doesn't mean it can't be competitive and fun. Plus, now nobody has the right to complain about the luck factor because they can go somewhere else and play the game the way they like it. Everybody wins!
  10. XienZo

    XienZo

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    746
    Guys, if Critical hits only happened every X turns without removing defensive boosts, then you would just use Substitute every X turns....

    Also, the number of people who don't know exactly what the OP is proposing is appalling....
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,564
    ^ Which is why I sort of dislike the "critical hit without doubling after 20 hits."

    I prefer having a chance to score a critical hit after X amount of hits. For instance, after the active Pokemon received 10 hits since it was last out, it would have a chance to experience a critical hit every 10 turns thereafter. The stalling / set-up Pokemon should not have the liberty to know when the critical hit will take place - it should be a risk that they take into account when stalling.

    Of course this sort of brings in the luck factor, but I think it is reasonable to punish somebody with a critical hit after 10 hits or whatever. At this point it is more of a "hax" that the stalling Pokemon did not receive a critical hit than not.

    I think this change is necessary because otherwise stall and even BP chain teams will dominate. As for BPs, I suggest the hit counts to NOT reset when they baton pass to a recipient / another bper.
  12. kokoloko

    kokoloko from Mexico
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Past SPL Winner
    UU Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2009
    Messages:
    3,705
    This is really cool. It was a matter of time until it got done tbh, but damn I'm glad its finally done. I have a funny feeling that its going to be a bust though, since a lot of people don't quite realize that they play pokemon because of the luck factor in the first place.

    Anyway, I still think you did a fantastic job. Don't let the 'haters' get you down.
  13. zyrefredric

    zyrefredric

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2008
    Messages:
    524
    i'm interested on the metagame of this custom server, but nobody seemed to mention it, all just complaints
  14. mien

    mien
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Messages:
    734
    Seeing as moves like Hypnosis have the accuracy of Spore on this server, balancing sleep would be necessary.
  15. Ereborus Nyx

    Ereborus Nyx

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2011
    Messages:
    153
    well, it does mean that gengar with dream eater would actually be useful
  16. Myzozoa

    Myzozoa a choir master sings sharp so others hit the right note
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,655
    The speed tie decider must be changed. Why should I lose the speed tie that my opponent forced by switching in a same speed pokemon? he forced what would normally be a random luck event, he deserves to lose said random luck event in a luckless game. i feel extremely strongly about this, just saying.
  17. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,978
    What I mean is to extend that principle to better preserve the game mechanics while still removing hax - so that flinching could exist without hax, so that abilities like Serene Grace could actually function rather than being ignored completely, and so that moves like Fire Blast wouldn't have effects that potentially completely change how they would be used. You mentioned that a goal of this was to make it similar enough to the existing game that people wouldn't have to learn two versions of Pokemon, and all of these things are steps towards that goal, not things that have any reason to wait and be implemented based on their effect on the metagame.
  18. Innocent Criminal

    Innocent Criminal

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    1) This is obviously not set in stone, but I chose to make the initial release not resetting the sleep counter to balance out Sleep Powder and the lack of Sleep Talk. Should Sleep prove underpowered, I'll gladly make it reset again.

    2) Viable Contrary users won't exist for a very long time, and Serperior doesn't learn any of these anyway (Iron Tail is now a Steel-typed Earthquake).

    3) Already done ;)

    4) This is very close to what I did, and I don't really see the need for it. Maybe if more people ask for it after playtesting.



    @Everyone : while none of this is set in stone and I value your opinion, all of this is really theorymoning, so I won't make any more changes until people play more and start discussing the metagame : I put a lot of thought into this, so please understand that you can't ask me to code and test your suggestions when they don't have a big impact or there is no evidence they will improve the game. I had different ideas about flinching and Serene Grace, including the ones you're proposing, but I chose for different reasons to wait and see and I'd like this choice to be respected : flinching isn't such a big part of the game, so its temporary removal won't affect gameplay much anyway ;)

    This ^
    For now, this topic is for discussion of the metagame only. If you have bug reports, complaints or suggestions, please PM them to me (I will answer to all of them) or post them in the development thread.


    Really, on the actual server, I saw everyone enjoying this, so don't let these minor details hold you back, they will be dealt with in due time, and the only way to make it happen faster is to play the ladder and start exploring the metagame. I already put a new strategy in the OP, and will will add any new discovery.
  19. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    779
    Sorry for theorymoning when what this thread really needs is some reviews of the impack of no luck on the OU metagame from players on the server. I will definitely get on the server as soon as I can to check this out, it's a great idea.

    I agree that in most respects, a more balanced metagame will result from the changes you've made, but I am most apprehensive about the effect of the new 'never-miss' high powered moves.

    A move such as Focus Blast are given a wide distribution for a competitive reason - Fighting is an almost essential coverage type these days. But the move Needs that severe nerf of 70% acc to avoid being overpowered.

    How can we get around this in a game where accuracy is essentially no longer part of the game? A drop of -1 SpA to prevent too effective sweeping with 120BP 100acc moves? It seems like a reasonable tradeoff at first glance, but it is likely to change the game hugely.

    Take a look at these two sets and see how much improved they are:

    Thundurus
    Nasty Plot
    Thunder
    Hidden Power Ice / Taunt
    Focus Blast
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    ability: Prankster
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Infernape
    Nasty Plot
    Fire Blast
    Focus Blast
    Close Combat / Grass Knot / Vacuum Wave
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Naive
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    In both cases, the sweepers use Nasty Plot to sweep. But both used to have to rely on either a lower powered Thunderbolt/Flamethrower, or risk a miss. Both had to rely on 'Focus Miss'. With the current Pokemon+ server, these problems are gone. The -1 SpA drop won't impact either user too much, since both aim to be starting their sweep with +2 SpA. That means two uses (maybe two kills) of the 120BP moves before you're even back to no boosts. That means 3 guaranteed hits before the Nasty Plot sweeper has to deal with a truly negative SpA change.

    There are other examples of sweepers that were previously hindered as a result of their reliance on moves with dodgy accuracy, these examples are just to demonstrate how much sweepers will benefit from the 'never miss' nature of this metagame.

    In addition to this point, I would also like to know if these moves will be nerfed in any way, or are they the same but 100% accurate:

    Stone Edge
    Dragon Rush
    Hi Jump Kick

    As a side note, I am so glad that in this metagame Jynx has finally learned to kiss properly, I was worried about her missing her punters 1/4 of the time!

    You should probably list Sweet Kiss, Confuse Ray etc. on the banned moves since their effect is nullified now that confusion is gone.
  20. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    4,079
    I really don't think dynamicpunch should get the hammer - without confuhax or crithax on this server it's absolutely no different from Cross Chop - a Fighting-type EQ.
  21. Innocent Criminal

    Innocent Criminal

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Messages:
    154
    Sweet Kiss is banned and Hustle now does nothing, looks like I completely I forgot about these ones.
    Dynamic Punch is a hax move by design and only used by Machamp, who has Cross Chop anyway.

    @jagged_angel : Maybe, maybe not, we can't know for sure with only theorymoning. If you want to prove your point, go dominate the ladder with these sets, which shouldn't be too hard as standard Thundurus is already considered broken by more voters than not.

    About the moves you listed, they don't currently have drawbacks, which might change should they prove to be broken. Stone Edge will most likely stay as it is and HJK didn't change much, but Dragon Rush might get some recoil.
  22. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Messages:
    959
    Spam Blizzard
    ???
    Win game
  23. XienZo

    XienZo

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    746
    How the hell would that work?
  24. malomyotismon

    malomyotismon

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2008
    Messages:
    351
    The skill in coming back from a critical or miss is something this will lack and tbh I love a good challenge.
  25. Airfoil

    Airfoil

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    921
    The thing about Stone Edge is because Game Freak made no good Rock moves for a reason: because they released Earthquake. Ground + Rock = Amazing coverage, and the fact that Earthquake is just plain amazing in comparison to any other move, with perfect accuracy and really good power for no drawbacks, they had to keep it from being too broken. I haven't done anything on this new server, so I can't really say if it's worth worrying about, but that great coverage is still something to keep in mind.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)