Pokemon Legends - Arceus - 28th Jan 2022 *Official Content Only*

AquaticPanic

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I'm kind of curious about the new moves in Legends. Would stuff like Stone Axe/Ceaseless Edge, Wave Crash and Victory Dance display whatever effects they're going to have in the main games, or would they stick with the descriptios for what the moves do in Legends' mechanics? Really hoping its the former
 
I'm kind of curious about the new moves in Legends. Would stuff like Stone Axe/Ceaseless Edge, Wave Crash and Victory Dance display whatever effects they're going to have in the main games, or would they stick with the descriptios for what the moves do in Legends' mechanics? Really hoping its the former
Moot point because those moves get removed upon transfer
 

AquaticPanic

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Moot point because those moves get removed upon transfer
Even if we are to assume transfering to SV in the future also resets Movepools to Level, that usually only really is relevant for missing out on tutor or egg moves. Legends Arceus' new moves are all lerned by level-up either way and we don't really have any reason to assume those moves just wouldn't be in SV (Specially considering two odthe new evos are tied to moves only added in that game)

And even that side, I'm just curious to see how the moves would be adapted.
 

Yung Dramps

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As a reminder, if this holds in SV this is a sample of what Smogon play will face unless Game Freak provides other means to learn these moves:

-Gutted Toxic and Knock Off distribution (the former is especially unlikely to be reversed seeing as GF has made a very active effort to cull it in recent games)
-Soft-Boiled Clefable gone
-Wish Chansey gone
 
I do wonder what Pokemon Showdown NatDex will do with the moveset rules. Will they have all moves available to a certain Pokemon as long as it can learn it in one of the games and be transfered to Home with that moveset..? Kind of worried because this complicates things and if they do move foward with moveset reset to SV, then this is pretty much a reboot for Pokemon movesets.
 
ok, it's all getting a bit technical for me here - am i to understand that mons transferred to sv will have moves removed/replaced?
While it isnt yet confirmed to apply to SV yet, essentially for gen 8 a pokemon will have a separate movesets for each of the gen 8 game, a BDSP one, a LA one, and a "mainline" one that is the SwSh one.
I do wonder what Pokemon Showdown NatDex will do with the moveset rules. Will they have all moves available to a certain Pokemon as long as it can learn it in one of the games and be transfered to Home with that moveset..? Kind of worried because this complicates things and if they do move foward with moveset reset to SV, then this is pretty much a reboot for Pokemon movesets.
Actually it's not as complicate as you think, because Showdown already applies "move compatibility" to pokemon when a poke wouldnt be able to carry certain moves at same time.
Similar thing may apply to Natdex, where a poke that carries a move it only learns in BDSP wouldn't be able to use a move it can only learn in SwSh, and other way around.
 

CTNC

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I understand making movesets be different between Arceus and SwSh or BDSP, but not letting Pokemon have moves be the same in SwSh and BDSP is BS.

Are they trying to avoid confusion about why Flash goes from usable to unusable from BDSP to SwSh, or is it some trouble with SwSh's battle ready mark and BDSP TMs? Either way, I'm very annoyed. I thought I'd be able to move a Shiny Drifblim from Arceus to BDSP and teach it Recycle then to SwSh to use in Restricted Sparring with a Leppa Berry! Recycle being a Tutor Move ever since the TM was cut makes it feel even worse because it's just SwSh that doesn't let you get Recycle. >:(

Also, the BDSP Battle Tower has some very notable Pokemon with moves that they can only learn in SwSh, like Zapdos and Kingdra with Hurricane, which makes it even worse because the game itself is allowed to have cross game moves, but you can't!
 

Theorymon

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i'm guessing that Gamefreak doesn't want a major competitive advantage for folks that own multiple Pokemon games anymore. Wouldn't be surprised if SV does this too, hell SwSh already doesn't let you use transfer mons without nuking their movepools on Gamefreak's ladders.

That being said, BDSP's tower using transfer moves while you can't is pretty silly. With stuff like Tentacruel losing Toxic Spikes because of SwSh level up movepools shenigans though, I sorta get the impression that BDSP was sorta rushed and not totally coherent with movepool stuff anyways lol.

On a Pokemon Legends note: I'm gonna be transfering stuff with good 0 IVs that I already got like Goomy, might be useful when SV gets home support! I'm also transfering my Colloseum Ursaring and Stantler to evolve them just because I think it's neat that I can evolve mons I caught almost 20 years ago!
 
i'm guessing that Gamefreak doesn't want a major competitive advantage for folks that own multiple Pokemon games anymore. Wouldn't be surprised if SV does this too, hell SwSh already doesn't let you use transfer mons without nuking their movepools on Gamefreak's ladders.

That being said, BDSP's tower using transfer moves while you can't is pretty silly. With stuff like Tentacruel losing Toxic Spikes because of SwSh level up movepools shenigans though, I sorta get the impression that BDSP was sorta rushed and not totally coherent with movepool stuff anyways lol.

On a Pokemon Legends note: I'm gonna be transfering stuff with good 0 IVs that I already got like Goomy, might be useful when SV gets home support! I'm also transfering my Colloseum Ursaring and Stantler to evolve them just because I think it's neat that I can evolve mons I caught almost 20 years ago!
Yeah. I think part of the reason Dexit was done was so that all the content would be available in the game. Despite SwSh technically having less Pokemon than other generations, you are able to catch 99% of the Pokemon available in both games if you have an internet connection and the DLC.

This still sucks though, and might be even worse than Dexit since it fundamentally changes the way a lot of Pokemon need to be played in singles. In Sword and Shield, I wasn't a fan of how moves were removed, like Return, Psywave, or Pursuit, since that really hurt a lot of Pokemon like Stoutland, Bronzong, and Tyranitar. It'll really suck if this also the case in Scarlet and Violet since I really enjoyed stuff like Triple Axel Hitmontop, Roost Scizor, Hurricane Zapdos, and Roost Zekrom / Reshiram. Still, for Gamefreaks official catridge metagames, I doubt these changes will matter that much (and I am starting to prefer these metagames to Smogon's ones currently since they are much faster-paced). Hopefully Scarlet and Violet continues keeping TMs and TRs so most Pokemon will still have good moveset flexibility

I guess the one saving grace is the purge of Toxic and Knock Off, which I think is a good thing since these moves were pretty automatic moves that most Pokemon could click if they wanted to cripple a switch-in for free. This also had the by-product of making defensive Psychic-types more sucky than they already were.

Well, we'll see how they'll decide to approach this issue when Scarlet and Violet eventually releases.
 
I really wish I had a strong opinion here. Less compatibility for moves is absolutely something I should be feeling stronger about. But, practically speaking, I wasn't going to get much in the way of transfer-only moves on cartridge to start with, so the change would primarily affect my experience with simulator battles. Except for the part where I won't have much experience with simulator battles if gen 8 being unfun is any indication. This is absolutely something that would be bothering me based on any previous indication, but I can't bring myself to feel more than "everything else is going to be bad enough that nothing will matter"
 
Yeah. I think part of the reason Dexit was done was so that all the content would be available in the game. Despite SwSh technically having less Pokemon than other generations, you are able to catch 99% of the Pokemon available in both games if you have an internet connection and the DLC.

This still sucks though, and might be even worse than Dexit since it fundamentally changes the way a lot of Pokemon need to be played in singles. In Sword and Shield, I wasn't a fan of how moves were removed, like Return, Psywave, or Pursuit, since that really hurt a lot of Pokemon like Stoutland, Bronzong, and Tyranitar. It'll really suck if this also the case in Scarlet and Violet since I really enjoyed stuff like Triple Axel Hitmontop, Roost Scizor, Hurricane Zapdos, and Roost Zekrom / Reshiram. Still, for Gamefreaks official catridge metagames, I doubt these changes will matter that much (and I am starting to prefer these metagames to Smogon's ones currently since they are much faster-paced). Hopefully Scarlet and Violet continues keeping TMs and TRs so most Pokemon will still have good moveset flexibility

I guess the one saving grace is the purge of Toxic and Knock Off, which I think is a good thing since these moves were pretty automatic moves that most Pokemon could click if they wanted to cripple a switch-in for free. This also had the by-product of making defensive Psychic-types more sucky than they already were.

Well, we'll see how they'll decide to approach this issue when Scarlet and Violet eventually releases.
Unpopular Opinion: I'm actually glad that movesets aren't going to carry over. One of my biggest qualms of Pokemon is because of how much legacy content can be transferred to one game to another, making it near impossible to experience a " complete " Pokemon game on cartridge. Complete in the sense of all the ribbons, movesets, Pokeballs, and even the Pokémon themselves cannot be experienced without aid of other games, including ones that were introduced all the way back in Gen 3. If you want to keep track of all the legal combinations, not only does it practically require a guide like Bulbapedia, Serebii, or PokemonShowdown!, but also mandates the latter should you want to play the game with all these literal combinations instead of the cartridge where the game is physically played, since it getting perfect Pokémon with all these combinations is impractical thanks to the insane transfer legacy, especially considering how IVs were so different in the old games. I know a lot of people always argue that cartridge games have the pentagon rule so isn't an issue, but I don't agree. They often hold tournaments that allow Pokemon from older generations, including mythical Pokemon. This means that if you want like Victini with Bolt Strike or Rayquaza with V-Create means you have to go out of your way to find extremley specific events that were only avalible for a limited time for the sake of the optimal teams. If SV were to replace transferred moves with Level Up moves, this would no longer be an issue.
 
Unpopular Opinion: I'm actually glad that movesets aren't going to carry over. One of my biggest qualms of Pokemon is because of how much legacy content can be transferred to one game to another, making it near impossible to experience a " complete " Pokemon game on cartridge. Complete in the sense of all the ribbons, movesets, Pokeballs, and even the Pokémon themselves cannot be experienced without aid of other games, including ones that were introduced all the way back in Gen 3. If you want to keep track of all the legal combinations, not only does it practically require a guide like Bulbapedia, Serebii, or PokemonShowdown!, but also mandates the latter should you want to play the game with all these literal combinations instead of the cartridge where the game is physically played, since it getting perfect Pokémon with all these combinations is impractical thanks to the insane transfer legacy, especially considering how IVs were so different in the old games. I know a lot of people always argue that cartridge games have the pentagon rule so isn't an issue, but I don't agree. They often hold tournaments that allow Pokemon from older generations, including mythical Pokemon. This means that if you want like Victini with Bolt Strike or Rayquaza with V-Create means you have to go out of your way to find extremley specific events that were only avalible for a limited time for the sake of the optimal teams. If SV were to replace transferred moves with Level Up moves, this would no longer be an issue.
Or you know....they could just not do tournaments without the pentagon. They already have an npc that lets you gain the pentagon at the cost of resetting move sets. Like, literally the way they are doing it here is just taking away stuff from players without gaining anything while ruining legacy stuff that some of us REALLY like. I personally love going out of my way to get old odd moves on mons that they can not get anymore.

Basically, there is a way for both of us to have our cake, so why the fuck do we not go that route?
 

Theorymon

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Oh wow, didn't know this. Which ones?
Usually it was the more gimmicky, non VGC stuff. Think stuff like Pikachu Cup (this actually had a slight impact with making Electabuzz viable lol). Gen 7 was pretty similar in that respect. XY also actually allowed transfers, which had a HUGE impact because it was the only way to get a lot of important tutor moves such as Hyper Voice for Sylveon, and Sheer Cold Suicune ended up being a terror in Battle Spot Singles too! It was ORAS specifically that banned transfers for its main ladders.

However for gen 8, I actually can not remember a single tournament that hasn't required either being gen 8 native or a battle mark (aka destruction of all transfer moves). I think the only use for transfer stuff in SwSh is playing Smogon formats against friends (though the 20 minute timer sorta sucks), and Restricted Sparring, which not only allows transfers, but it's actually relevant with Recycle being a very important transfer move for that.

With BDSP and Legends not allowing that kind of stuff, the uses for transfer moves in SwSh are pretty limited. Honestly, it's most important for our formats in Pokemon Showdown!
 
Like, literally the way they are doing it here is just taking away stuff from players without gaining anything while ruining legacy stuff that some of us REALLY like.
Wouldn't be the first time they've forced people into using something that previously was an option.
 
Or you know....they could just not do tournaments without the pentagon. They already have an npc that lets you gain the pentagon at the cost of resetting move sets. Like, literally the way they are doing it here is just taking away stuff from players without gaining anything while ruining legacy stuff that some of us REALLY like. I personally love going out of my way to get old odd moves on mons that they can not get anymore.

Basically, there is a way for both of us to have our cake, so why the fuck do we not go that route?
In fairness, the moves do exist, they just are temporarily overwritten in another game. But it’s designed to be an equalizer. It’s unfair to one player if they just start playing SwSh now and want to participate in a competition that uses Victini. We people on Smogon know how important moves like Bolt Strike and Blue Flare are valuable on Victini to the point that most of its major sets use those moves and Celebrate and Stored Power as well. Problem is that those moves are only available on Victini that were given out only once at limited time events years ago. It’s not fair for older players to have an advantage over new players just because they were playing longer.
 
Usually it was the more gimmicky, non VGC stuff. Think stuff like Pikachu Cup (this actually had a slight impact with making Electabuzz viable lol). Gen 7 was pretty similar in that respect. XY also actually allowed transfers, which had a HUGE impact because it was the only way to get a lot of important tutor moves such as Hyper Voice for Sylveon, and Sheer Cold Suicune ended up being a terror in Battle Spot Singles too! It was ORAS specifically that banned transfers for its main ladders.

However for gen 8, I actually can not remember a single tournament that hasn't required either being gen 8 native or a battle mark (aka destruction of all transfer moves). I think the only use for transfer stuff in SwSh is playing Smogon formats against friends (though the 20 minute timer sorta sucks), and Restricted Sparring, which not only allows transfers, but it's actually relevant with Recycle being a very important transfer move for that.
Alola had some Battle Spot seasons such as the Metronome-only season, where the vast majority of Pokemon could only ever get Metronome through either RBY TM35 or the FRLG move tutor, so they pretty much had to allow transfers for that if they didn't want to force everyone into a monotonous Clefable/Blissey/Togekiss team. Sw/Sh later tried its own Metronome-only competition, but those games also reintroduced Metronome as a TM so they could enforce origins without crippling the move's available distribution.

The all-level-1 Battle Spot season probably could have been run with origin game enforcement and wouldn't change too much (the usual suspects like Cloyster and Minccino are available at level 1 using only standard breeding mechanics), but they nevertheless decided against it, and usage stats showed some people trying out options like Gyarados and Regigigas, which could only be obtained at 1 if you got them in a previous game (at least in a world that predated the existence of transfers from Go).
 
In fairness, the moves do exist, they just are temporarily overwritten in another game. But it’s designed to be an equalizer. It’s unfair to one player if they just start playing SwSh now and want to participate in a competition that uses Victini. We people on Smogon know how important moves like Bolt Strike and Blue Flare are valuable on Victini to the point that most of its major sets use those moves and Celebrate and Stored Power as well. Problem is that those moves are only available on Victini that were given out only once at limited time events years ago. It’s not fair for older players to have an advantage over new players just because they were playing longer.
If you can only use marked mons then it doesn't matter those moves are around for official nintendo competitions; therefor as long as they keep requiring that mark, your issue with them is solved. Whereas temporarily overwrittening those moves means I can not use them in pve environment such as the battle tower.

Once again, while this might let you eat your cake, they have already been giving you your cake all this gen and are only taking away the cake I was eating that has no effect on you. They are solving a problem they already solved, just in a shittier way. And to add more shit to the table, it is even more dumb that they do something like this to BD/SP as the games do not even have official ladders.
 

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