Pokemon rankings (Wobbuffet is #503)

[Chinese Dood]

Yeah, maybe there isn't domination.

I think it's still worth exploring Spiritomb @ Mail to prevent trick though. Holding Mail, Spiritomb does not need to Shadow Sneak first move, meaning zam can't just Disable + Encore in the first two turns (it would be Disabling Faint Attack/Shadow Ball first turn and then encoring Shadow Sneak, which means Alakazam will faint on 3rd turn Shadow Sneak at worst).

But then without Expert Belt or Life Orb boosting offense and not using Shadow Sneak first turn to get a hit before Alakazam moves, Alakazam can survive 2 hits using screens or barrier, that opens up another bunch of options for Alakazam and Spiritomb...

 

[DDRMaster]

I still think Spiritomb can dominate Alakazam. I'm fairly certain using a 1 PP Sucker Punch/Protect would be allowed, and even if it isn't, you could certainly just go with 5 PP Sucker Punch and get out of Encore.

 

[obi]

You can't get into a competitive battle with 1 PP: your Pokemon must start out fully healed.

This means that if Alakazam uses Encore turn 1, it has 4 turns to do whatever it wants, in general. This leaves Alakazam free to use moves like Barrier, Substitute, and Calm Mind, and then finally attack with a move like Grass Knot (100 power) or Miracle Eye + Psychic.

Also keep in mind that a Life Orb set needs to be able to beat an Alakazam that has has moves along the lines of Recover, Calm Mind, Barrier, Endure, with Grass Knot as the attacking move, that plays to have Spiritomb weaken itself with Life Orb recoil before it gets into Grass Knot KO range (although Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch make that a dangerous game, probably unworkable).

 

[Timmetmannetje]

I'm pretty sure Caterpie has some of those low level psychics dominated, as well as Sunkern and Paras.

I think that Caterpie can't beat Paras.
As Choice Band Adamant Bug bite on a Paras with Max HP/def only does 70.1% at most.
and Poison sting only does 10% After Caterpie attacks Paras uses Spore and starts hurting it with aerial ace or it first Synthesis the damage away and than uses aerial ace.
And without any attack ev's and adamant nature. Aerial ace is a clean 2HKO on Choice band variants and a 3HKO on Max HP/Def variants

 

[cim]

I don't see why there's any debate about Spiritomb beating Alakazam when it has Taunt and Sucker Punch at its disposal. At worst it can use CB Shadow Sneak, which is at worst a 2HKO.

 

[Mattman324]

Hide

BULBASAUR: Flame Plate, Judgement, kills. Sleep Talk in case of Sleep Powder, no other moves.

IVYSAUR: Look up.

VENUSAUR: Venusaur MIGHT survive with the Occa berry, but cannot OHKO with EQ or any Hidden Power. Flame Plate with Judgement/Sleep Talk again.

CHARMANDER: Splash Plate, Judgement.

CHARMELEON: Look up.

CHARIZARD: Rock Plate. Zard must run a Scarf, and does not do enough damage with EQ, but Judgement will OHKO.

SQUIRTLE: Zap Plate, Judgement.

WARTORTLE: Look up.

BLASTOISE: Use the SPLASH plate, Rain Dance, Thunder, you resist all special attacks, run some Defense with it, you will win.

CATERPIE: Flame Plate

METAPOD: Look up.

BUTTERFREE: Choice Scarf and Ancientpower. Outspeed always, and KO. If it Focus Sashes into the Sleep Powder, it will not be able to KO you in 5 turns with LO HP Fighting (that I know of), so you win.

WEEDLE: See Caterpie.

KAKUNA: Great Kakuna Man be damned, see Caterpie,

BEEDRIL: Again, Flame Plate and blast it with Judgement.

PIDGEY: Zap Plate.

PIDGEOTTO: Zap Plate.

PIDGEOT: Zap Plate, use Rain Dance/Thunder so it cannot stall you with Fly and Toxic if it has an Electric resist berry.

RATTATA: Fist Plate, use Extremespeed to stop potential FEAR strategy.

RATICATE: See Rattata.

SPEAROW: See Pidgey.

FEAROW: See Pidgeot.

EKANS: Spooky Plate, spam EQ.

ARBOK: See Ekans.

PIKACHU: EQ one time. Cheri Berry for Focus Sash/Thunder Wave.

RAICHU: Choice Scarf (to avoid CS Surf), EQ a few times with the Earth Plate.

SANDSHREW: Splash Plate.

SANDSLASH: Look up.

NIDORAN FEMALE: EQ, Chople Berry for HP Fighting.

NIDORINA: Look up.

NIDOQUEEN: ...I THINK the Nidoran Female Strategy works Superpower or FB instead of HP Fight though.

NIDORAN MALE: Look at Nidoran Female.

NIDORINO: Look up.

NIDOKING: Again, I believe the same strategy works. Although it will be using Focus Blast instead of HP Fight.

CLEFARY: Fist Plate, Judgement, Sleep Talk on the set for Sing.

CLEFABLE: Look up Watch for Psychic.

VULPIX: Splash plate and Sleep Talk to stop Hypnosis.

NINETAILS: Look up, make SURE to put some SpD evs in to stop Energy Ball.

JIGGLYPUFF: See Clefary.

WIGGLYTUFF: See Clefary.

ZUBAT: Zap Plate, Rain Dance/Thunder.

GOLBAT: See Zubat.

ODDISH: Icicle Plate, Judgement.

GLOOM: look up

VILEPLUME: Make sure to have Rain Dance (I think Sun Boosted HP Fire can take you out, Chlorophyll helping), but otherwise, see oddish.

Got a few more in today.

 

[DDRMaster]

I don't see why there's any debate about Spiritomb beating Alakazam when it has Taunt and Sucker Punch at its disposal. At worst it can use CB Shadow Sneak, which is at worst a 2HKO.

A Physically Defensive Alakazam with a Ghost resist Berry and Disable and Recover can easily take a Choice Banded Shadow Sneak and the ensuing Struggles. Even if Spiritomb lands a critical hit, Alakazam won't be OHKOd and Alakazam has an 80% chance to beat Spiritomb (due to Disable's Accuracy).

If Spiritomb Taunts the first turn, Alakazam can just Trick a Scarf onto it and lock it into a useless move. Afterwards, it can easily take it out with Signal Beam.

 

[Vratix]

A Physically Defensive Alakazam with a Ghost resist Berry and Disable and Recover can easily take a Choice Banded Shadow Sneak and the ensuing Struggles. Even if Spiritomb lands a critical hit, Alakazam won't be OHKOd and Alakazam has an 80% chance to beat Spiritomb (due to Disable's Accuracy).

If Spiritomb Taunts the first turn, Alakazam can just Trick a Scarf onto it and lock it into a useless move. Afterwards, it can easily take it out with Signal Beam.

2 things: wouldn't the nature of a critical hit ignore the effects of the Berry making a definitive OHKO?

Also, Specify if you are talking about a different set for Spiritomb.

Hide

If a Choice 'Zam uses trick on a Choice 'Tomb using taunt I'm fairly sure that gen4 mechanics would leave it locked into Trick. Since Taunt has twice the PP of Trick, with Struggle Alakazam fails to 4HKO Banded Spiritomb (even if every Struggle crits). That would be Spiritomb's win.

Now, I am going to assume you moved away from Banded Spiritomb since noone in their right mind would Taunt with a Choice Band Spiritomb.

 

[DDRMaster]

I assumed Cris is Me was talking about a Taunt+Sucker Punch set and a Choice Band set separately. Obviously, if Spiritomb used Taunt on a Choice Band set, Alakazam could simply keep attacking it with Fire Punch and eventually KO it.

Also, according to Smogon's Damage Calculator, a critical hit doesn't ignore the Berry.

 

[Vratix]

Also, according to Smogon's Damage Calculator, a critical hit doesn't ignore the Berry.

Wasn't sure. My bad.



The point is moot though, because you could avoid the situation by running an Expert Belt on Spiritomb. Then Alakazam would have to both Encore and Disable to lock Spiritomb. A problem that could be further solved with mixed set@Expert Belt; 1st turn Dark Pulse let Alakazam, 2nd turn Shadow Sneak.

If Alakazam (Bold 252 HP/252 Def @Kasib {or Colbur} Berry) instead uses a screen 1st turn it has a 99% chance to live these two hits but 0% chance to OHKO Spiritomb back so it's a losing match-up.

Modest Specs Alakazam also has a 0% Chance to OHKO


Now if Alakazam were to Trick a Scarf onto Spiritomb and Spirtomb used Dark Pulse Alakazam will live and can try to disable with a 1 in 5 chance of failure. If Spiritomb used Shadow Sneak it does 44.3% - 53.5% to bold max hp max def Alakazam. Nearly a 40% chance of a 2HKO even after losing the Expert Belt. But Since Spiritomb attacked before it recieved a choice item it can simply switch to Dark Pulse for the guaranteed KO

 

[Athenodoros]

So from that it sounds like any Spiritomb set can be beaten by an Alakazam set, but that any Alakazam set can be beaten by a Spiritomb set, in an extended game of Scissors-Paper-Rock. I'm not thinking domination.

 

[DDRMaster]

No, I think Chinese Dood has it. Either that or he's really close. EB Shadow Sneak first turn is definitely the way to go, unless Mail+Taunt+Sucker Punch can beat non Choiced Alakazam well enough.

 

[Athenodoros]

Shadow Sneak, Disable
Encore, Struggle
Recover, Struggle
Signal Beam, Struggle => Self KO

I think. The second one gets beaten, ironically enough, by Taunt.

 

[Vratix]

Shadow Sneak, Disable
Encore, Struggle
Recover, Struggle
Signal Beam, Struggle => Self KO

I think. The second one gets beaten, ironically enough, by Taunt.

or it could go

Disable (no effect) , Dark Pulse
Shadow Sneak, (=> possible KO) Disable
Encore , Struggle (KO)

This match up is almost entirely even (oddly enough) and is dependent on the strategy you decide to adopt.

I would say that Alakazam is at a slight disadvantage because almost all of its wins are dependent on Disable and Spiritomb being locked into a move. Since Disable has a 1 in 5 chance to miss and if it is used on the wrong move I would guess that this match is probably 6-4 (MAYBE even 7-3)

 

[lati0s]

The dominating pokemon must be able to choose a single strategy that wins against any strategy the opponent employs

 

[Athenodoros]

I think we are all saying the same thing over and over. I think it can be laid to rest now. And It is a shame, but I don't think we will see a huge influx of 252/252 Bold Alakazams with Disable and Recover.

 

[Loves_Eo]

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Eccentric
252/252 Spe/HP
Timid (+Spe, -Atk)

- Transform

Essentially in a 1 on 1, beats any offensive variant of any given pokemon, does it not? Either Ditto outspeeds it and uses (generally) a SE move for the OHKO, or Ditto loses to pp stall. I'm not sure, but I wanted to make sure.

 

[DDRMaster]

This thread is for Gen 4 Pokemon/moves/Abilities only, so Ditto wouldn't be able to have Eccentric. Also, that Ditto still loses to anything that can OHKO itself and runs a Focus Sash.

 

[ck49]

Ditto totally dominates nothing, since everything can run a defensive set with protect to pp stall it out of the 5pp. Only unown cant do that. Everything else manages to beat it I would think.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

No, I think Chinese Dood has it. Either that or he's really close. EB Shadow Sneak first turn is definitely the way to go, unless Mail+Taunt+Sucker Punch can beat non Choiced Alakazam well enough.

Actually, what zam CAN beat taunt+sucker punch+mail tomb? I'm not sure this is as laid to rest as you think it is Atheno.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Zam can taunt first.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Dammit, every time I think of a new tomb set, I forget something in zam's ridiculous support movepool. Yeah, no domination. Someone else think of another domination scenario so we can discuss it : P

 

[Chinese Dood]

Actually, I was thinking maybe you're right lol.

With Taunt, Alakazam will also NEED to have Recover. That's two moveslots used up, so it will only have 2 other moves to use. I was just theorymonning and tried different movesets for both zam and Spiritomb, and then I came to the conclusion that it will be a bit difficult to beat:

Spiritomb Quiet 252 Attack 252 Special Attack @ Mail - Taunt / Sucker Punch / Shadow Sneak / Shadow Ball

Um, I didn't write down anything, but basically, even at +1 Sp Def, Zam is still 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball (minimum 55%). Zam can't Calm Mind twice because Shadow Sneak on the 3rd hit will KO. Alakazam cannot Disable Shadow Ball until after it has been hit by 1 Shadow ball already, at which point it will be 2HKO'd by Shadow Sneak, unless it has Barrier, but Alakazam with Taunt/Recover/Disable/Barrier.... .... won't be able to attack at all (crit or Sp Def drop from Shadow Ball will eventually happen).

... That said, I don't think Sucker Punch is even necessary, because Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak is sufficient to KO any Alakazam that can 2HKO Spiritomb I think... Maybe it's possible though (to 2HKO Spiritomb while not being 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak). I just haven't tried very hard to calculate one.

 

[elDino]

Thanks dude, this is amazing, I really appreciate the effort. It must have taken a hell of a lot of time and effort for you to work out these stats, well done. :)

 

[JSND]

i think mewtwo loses to spiritomb. depend on specstwo's fire blast damage on tomb though. i calculated one of mewtwo's standard set's Blast only does 70 % on tomb (maximal) and tomb 2hko with most move it run