Pokemon rankings (Wobbuffet is #503)

[Athenodoros]

I can't imagine Tomb dominates Mewtwo. For instance, Shadow Sneak is only just a guaranteed 4HKO, and Shadow Ball can not guarantee a 2HKO and can be dastroyed by Recover + Calm Mind. It will probably just go like Alakazam: Mewtwo has better stats everywhere, better movepool, but admittedly probably can't dominate Spiritomb.

 

[Chinese Dood]

I'm positive that Spiritomb does not dominate Mewtwo (i.e. for every Spiritomb set, there's a Mewtwo set that will be able to beat it over 50% of the time), but it might be possible that Mewtwo does not dominate Spiritomb either.

After doing a bit of calculation... I think Mewtwo does not dominate Spiritomb. From what I calculated, in general, Taunt Spiritomb will be able to beat Mewtwos without Taunt, and Mewtwos with Taunt (and uses it first turn) will lose to Life Orb (or Expert Belt) Spiritomb sets.

EDIT: O yeah, one thing that Alakazam beats Mewtwo on is access to Encore. Even then (if Mewtwo had Encore), Mewtwo probably still won't dominate Spiritomb.

 

[Vratix]

Actually, since there is only a 2% chance that a mix Spiritomb can 3HKO any Mewtwo with Shadow Sneak I would have to say Mewtwo has a definite edge.

Mewtwo has access to both Reflect and Will-o-Wisp. Both of which dodge Sucker Punch and reduce its later use.

Also, something Alakazam couldn't hold up with, Mewtwo has access to Priority by way of: Me First. Also, if you are interested to know a Dark Pulse stolen with Me First does 59.9% - 70.5% to mix Spritomb.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Recall, dominance by the OP's definition refers to a pokemon being able to win against a dominated pokemon regardless of what the opponent does. That is, if we are trying to test whether or not Mewtwo can dominate over Spiritomb, we have to assume that Mewtwo has no knowledge of what Spiritomb is going to do while Spiritomb knows what Mewtwo is going to do.

In other words, Me First will always fail... because Me First has 0 priority (i.e. it is NOT a priority move as is commonly mistaken), meaning if Spiritomb is using Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch, Me First will always fail.

Trick Scarf Mewtwo will always lose to a Specs or Band Spiritomb.
Specs Mewtwo loses to all Spiritomb that have Sucker Punch.
Bulky Mewtwo without Taunt loses to Spiritomb with Taunt + Sucker Punch.
Bulky Mewtwo with Taunt loses to Life Orb Spiritomb with Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse / Shadow Sneak

Just some calcs:
Life Orb Quiet Spiritomb will 2HKO 252 HP 252 Sp Def Calm Mewtwo with Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse.

Life Orb Brave Spiritomb will 2HKO 252 HP 252 Def Bold Mewtwo with Sucker Punch.

With that said, if Mewtwo is without Taunt, Spiritomb can taunt after Mewtwo has used Barrier, Calm Mind, Bulk Up, or Amnesia on first turn.

If Mewtwo used Barrier or Bulk Up first turn, Quiet LO Spiritomb will 2HKO Mewtwo while Mewtwo fails to 2HKO back.

If Mewtwo used Calm Mind, Brave LO Spiritomb Sucker Punch will 2HKO while Mewtwo fails to OHKO back.

If Mewtwo has taunt, it will need Taunt, Recover, Calm Mind or Bulk Up, Attack. Regardless of the set, Spiritomb will 3HKO with Shadow Ball x 2 + Shadow sneak (i.e. Mewtwo will have to taunt first turn, and then calm Mind or Bulk up on 2nd turn).

Blah, More later if I have time.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Wait, I thought you were allowed to have knowledge of your opponent's set, you just had to choose a single path to beat any individual set. Am I allowed to know what my opponent has or not?

This is relevant because if my tomb doesn't know my opponent's zam set it will always have to taunt first turn. This isnt a huge issue as long as you carry sucker punch to ohko more offensive zams, but still.

 

[Athenodoros]

The idea is that in order to prove dominance, you assume worst case scenario, which means that the opponent acts like they know your moveset. However, the dominating Pokemon does not know anything but species and what it can surmise about the opponent.

 

[Vratix]

Right, they can know your moveset but not every single move you are planning to use at any given turn. That would be ridiculous.


Also, I think that Me First matches the priority of the move being used against it. I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that Me First can steal Sucker Punch, in which case it could steal Shadow Sneak also.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Right, they can know your moveset but not every single move you are planning to use at any given turn. That would be ridiculous.


Also, I think that Me First matches the priority of the move being used against it. I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that Me First can steal Sucker Punch, in which case it could steal Shadow Sneak also.

While possible, I don't think Me First steels priority, for the same reason a sleep talked whirlwind gets 0 priority. I could be wrong though

 

[Chinese Dood]

Also, I think that Me First matches the priority of the move being used against it. I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure that Me First can steal Sucker Punch, in which case it could steal Shadow Sneak also.

Not sure why you're so sure about this, but in my previous post I didn't say I *think* that me first has 0 priority. I know that it does.

You may find it useful to read up on some of these:
Smogon:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/me_first
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/move_priority

Serebii:
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/mefirst.shtml

Psypokes:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/techdex/382
http://www.psypokes.com/lab/priority.php

Bulbapedia:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Me_First_(move)

Or alternatively, just try it for yourself in a battle. I'm just not sure why you're so sure about something you haven't tested before, when all the sources suggests the opposite.

 

[gvmgvm40]

Yeah, I've also run calcs and I'm positive Mewtwo doesn't dominate Spiritomb.

Spiritomb @ Choice Band
Sassy
252 Attack, 232 SpA, 24 SpDef
~ Sucker Punch
~ Shadow Ball

Wins against TrickSpecs Mewtwo.

Non-choiced Mewtwo can be beaten by 252/252+ Spiritomb, which is not 2HKO'd by Fire Blast and can hit back with Shadow Ball/Sucker Punch to 3HKO.

 

[Blightbringer]

Infernape can defeat any Swampert set 100% of the time--as long as Swampert does not get an Ice Beam freeze (with the Ice Beam shenanigans accounted for, your chances are something like 92.4% of the time)--it will always win with a simple set like this:

Infernape@Focus Sash
252 Atk/252 Sp. Atk
Rash nature

-Grass Knot
-Fake Out
-Vacuum Wave
-Close Combat

 

[Chinese Dood]

You are thinking a bit too simple here I think.

Swampert @ Rindo Berry
204 HP / 252 Attack / 52 Speed
Careful Nature
- Icy Wind
- Earthquake or Waterfall

The mentioned Infernape set has 252 Speed. With 52 Speed EVs, Swampert is at 169 Speed. After 1 Icy Wind, Infernape is at 168 Speed.

Fake Out does a max of 12.5% to Swampert.
Grass Knot does a max of 49.5% to Swampert.
Vacuum Wave does a max of 18.6% to Swampert.

That's a total of 80.6% to Swampert.

Waterfall or Earthquake will both deal over 100% minimum to Infernape, meaning:
Turn 1: Fake Out (12.5%), Flinch.
Turn 2: Grass Knot (49.5%) Rindo Activates, Icy Wind (Swampert is now faster)
Turn 3: Vacuum Wave (18.6%), Earthquake/Waterfall KO Infernape.

That Infernape only wins with critical hit or Icy Wind missing.

EDIT: Oh, forgot to mention... Close Combat does a max of 55.4%, which is better than Grass Knot, but still doesn't do enough to KO, and of course for dominance, Infernape wouldn't know that Swampert has Rindo... so it's either Close Combat or Grass Knot (unless it bases which move to use depending on how much damage fake out did, but really, Swampert CAN just have Protect and use that first turn).

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Infernape can defeat any Swampert set 100% of the time--as long as Swampert does not get an Ice Beam freeze (with the Ice Beam shenanigans accounted for, your chances are something like 92.4% of the time)--it will always win with a simple set like this:

Infernape@Focus Sash
252 Atk/252 Sp. Atk
Rash nature

-Grass Knot
-Fake Out
-Vacuum Wave
-Close Combat

A scarfpert with 252hp/200spdef/52spd takes an average of 97.1% damage from a combination of fake out/grass knot/vacuum wave, and is 2hkoed by waterfall or surf. Close, but try again.

EDIT: fuck yeah i forgot icy wind, but i used an icy wind gengar a long time ago to deal with with sashed lead ape. I should have remember that. Oh yeah, ninjad

 

[Donny Mae.]

This was a good read. Definate smog material.

 

[Vratix]

Yeah, I've also run calcs and I'm positive Mewtwo doesn't dominate Spiritomb.

Spiritomb @ Choice Band
Sassy
252 Attack, 232 SpA, 24 SpDef
~ Sucker Punch
~ Shadow Ball

Wins against TrickSpecs Mewtwo.

it absolutely does not.

a Hardy nature Mewtwo with 0EVs takes 75.4% - 89% from Shadow Ball

Sucker Punch will not hit before the trick.
Mewtwo can learn BOTH TORMENT and PROTECT.

Therefore ANY EV spread of Mewtwo with any nature that does not give (-SpD) that is Choice Trick can beat your listed Spiritomb with the moves
-Trick
-Torment
-Protect
-(Filler)
...

Now a Non-Bulky Mewtwo might lose to one with Shadow Sneak over Sucker Punch if you get a 2HKO with Shadow Sneak.

 

[Vratix]

*sorry for double post*

Not sure why you're so sure about this, but in my previous post I didn't say I *think* that me first has 0 priority. I know that it does.

You may find it useful to read up on some of these:
Smogon:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/me_first
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/move_priority

Serebii:
http://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/mefirst.shtml

Psypokes:
http://www.psypokes.com/dex/techdex/382
http://www.psypokes.com/lab/priority.php

Bulbapedia:
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Me_First_(move)

Or alternatively, just try it for yourself in a battle. I'm just not sure why you're so sure about something you haven't tested before, when all the sources suggests the opposite.

Generation V

Sucker Punch will now succeed if the opponent is using Me First.



http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Sucker_Punch_(move)


Maybe you should read your own source material.


Also, I tried it. In gen4 Me First both a) steals Sucker Punch and b)causes it to fail.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Just to make sure I was actually not wrong, I just tested:

Level 31 Croagunk with Sucker Punch vs level 53 Xatu with Me First.

Turn 1:
Croagunk used Sucker Punch, but it failed.
Xatu used Me First, but it failed.

Xatu was faster than Croagunk, just as Mewtwo is faster than Spiritomb. Me First did not steal sucker punch.

Sucker Punch failed because Me First (in Gen IV) is not counted as a damaging move. Me First failed because Croagunk was *faster* than Xatu when using priority move.

Also, we're talking about Gen IV obviously and not Gen V, but even in Gen V, they're saying that Sucker Punch will succeed, NOT Me First will succeed (i.e. Me First will still fail). In Gen V, Me First will count as a damaging move (since Sucker Punch only works if opponent uses damaging move), so Sucker punch will work and go before Me First while Me First still fails, but that's Gen V anyway and this topic is for Gen IV.

I'm not sure what you tried (would you mind posting the battle scenario you had since my results seem to be different?). From the test I had just now, Me First definitely has 0 priority while Sucker punch definitely has -1. Sucker Punch will move first (which also means Me First will fail).

 

[obi]

Choice Mewtwo cannot switch from Torment to Protect. The enemy Spiritomb has Choice Band, so Mewtwo cannot Trick away its Choice item.

 

[Vratix]

Choice Mewtwo cannot switch from Torment to Protect. The enemy Spiritomb has Choice Band, so Mewtwo cannot Trick away its Choice item.

whoops, forgot about spiritomb's item
when the 'tomb was posted last week I didn't see anything wrong with it so I guess I was just tired yesterday

 

[Legacy Raider]

What about Tyranitar? It must be way up there with its ability to cancel out any non Rock/Ground/Steel's Focus Sash, and its vast movepool and high attacking stats letting it prey on the weak defenses of whatever it's facing.

For example, I'm pretty sure (sorry don't have too much time right now, this is more of a discussion sparking post hopefully) Tyranitar completely dominates Alakazam (/ Espeon / Xatu / assorted Psychics) with this set:

Tyranitar @ Focus Sash / Chople Berry
Adamant - 252 Atk / 252 SpD
- Crunch
- Payback

 

[Auraknight]

I think Groudon can beat the Arceus set posted in the op over 50% of the time by using 252 SpA and a modest nature with a Rindo Berry. Fire Blast followed by Overheat has ~60% chance of KOing Arceus, whilst Arceus fails to 2KO Groudon through Rindo Berry.

 

[supermarth64]

obi, how would the list go if Arceus were split into the 17 different types?

 

[Boondocker]

Pretty sure this infernape dominates all lucario.

@ sash
Rash 240att 156spa 112spe
~overheat
~mach punch

Speed outruns luke to ensure you get faster priority. Since lucario is weak to both of your stabs its wise to use both of them to do more in case he holds a resist berry. Special attack guarentees the ko against max/max luke, forcing him to run either a focus sash or an occa berry (stopping any garbage involving endure+salac). Any focus sash versions are always kod by overheat+mach punch, making occa his best option. Here are some calcs (all lukes run occa berry):

Vs 252hp/252spD calm luke: Overheat does 51.7% - 61.3% while mach punch does 44.2% - 52.3%.
Vs 252hp/252def bold luke: Overheat does 70.6% - 83.1% while mach punch does 29.7% - 34.9%
Vs 252hp/164def/92 calm (equeal defences) luke: Overheat does 56.7% - 67.2% while mach punch does 35.5% - 42.4%

All kos happen well over 50% of the time even when factoring in overheats miss chance. Unless bone rush can kill ape through its sash (pretty sure it cant), infernape dominates lucario. Even if it does ape can run likely just run shucca berry and enough defence to live an unboosted cc while still being able to ko occa luke over 50% of the time. Ill do more calcs later its after 5 am.

 

[Chinese Dood]

@Boondocker:
I was almost totally convinced, but I think you typed in the wrong EVs there for the Rash Infernape. Your calculations and descriptions - if I did them correctly also - correspond to Rash 32 Attack 252 SpA 220 Speed Infernape, not the EV spread you listed.

The EV spread you listed only outspeeds neutral speed Lucario, as I'm pretty sure you knew. It needs 220 Speed to outspeed +Speed Lucario. Also, your calculation of 36.6% - 43.6% with Mach Punch is for 252HP 252 SpD Calm Luke, which is fine, but putting the last 4 EVs into Defense, Luke only takes 35.5% - 42.4%. That, together with Overheat Occa means that it will only KO Luke 54.24% of the time. Factoring in 90% accurate Overheat, that is 48.81% of the time if I did my calculations correctly.

In return, 0 SpA Calm Luke will easily 2HKO with Psychic. It's pretty weird and interesting that with 4 extra EVs in Def Luke actually takes 4 less HP damage on average, so without those 4 Def EVs, instead of 48.81% it'd be 54.9% and ape would dominate.

I think there still might be an EV spread for Infernape dominance though.

 

[Athenodoros]

You also forgot the SE Rock Tomb and Extremespeed, which I think would KO Infernape, even holding a sash.