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Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by atsync, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Comments

    These are overall better than the ones in the last round.

    Onix and Ponyta are my analyses so I'll leave those alone.

    Magmar and Moltres are fine.

    Machop/Machamp
    • Let's merge these. Since the Yellow Machamp analysis is clearly the superior of the two, we'll delete the RB Machop analysis and use Yellow Machamp as the base to which RB information should be added. The analysis will be for Machop, not Machamp, just to be consistent with everything else.
    • Although the fact that Yellow Machamp is an in-game trade is mentioned, it doesn't seem to mention anywhere the benefits of boosted experience.
    • I think stats should be a bit more specific. Its physical bulk isn't actually that bad, but "average defenses" could make you believe that it is. This is more of a nitpick than anything, but whatever. Maybe just list all of its stats in some way as the stats speak for themselves really.
    • Movepool should discuss that lack of a good STAB since Submission is a notoriously bad move, and Low Kick is a bit weak. Also mention Karate Chop because of its high (but not perfect in Machamp's case) crit rate. Probably emphasize more clearly that access to Earthquake and Rock Slide is one of the main things separating it from most other Fighting types.
    • Power: Should mention that low Speed hinders its sweeping ability at times, although it should be enough for many regular trainers.
    • Type section should mention super-effective hits on common Normal types, which is the main thing Fighting has going for it.
    Paras
    • Misty: Stun Spore is useful for the paralysis on Starmie.
    • Additional comments: I'd probably just remove the last sentence about not being able to learn Flash in 1st gen. It just seems like random trivia that adds nothing to the analysis.
    Pidgey
    • Should mention somewhere that Pidgeot's bulk is better than the other Normal/Flying types, which is an advantage over those guys.
    • Movepool: Probably should mention Double-Edge rather than Take Down.
    • Lt. Surge: I doubt Pikachu would "destroy" you even with ThunderShock.
    • Koga: Mention the Yellow fight. Pidgeot does well against Yellow Koga.
    • Additional comments should be revamped.
    Pinsir
    • I wouldn't call Pinsir's Speed a let down myself. 85 Speed is decent enough. Sure, Alakazam and co. will beat you but Pinsir's fast enough for regular trainers.
    • "he can only learn non-Normal moves (besides Seismic Toss) through TM" - actually the opposite is true, I think I understand what the writer was trying to say but the sentence is worded badly. Should mention that Slash is learned at level 49, which means that its best options until then for Body Slam, Submission, Strength and Vice Grip.
    • Power: it should be able to set up Swords Dance against Physical Pokemon ok. I wouldn't say its Speed harms the use of Guillotine that much, it isn't that slow.
    • Type: er, I don't think having STAB on Submission would make it much better! Personally I'd probably just remove the whole first half of that section.
    • Agatha: Seismic Toss can hit her Ghosts for what it's worth.
    That will do. I'll leave this round open for a bit longer just in case.
  2. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,014
    No need to keep this going.

    All Pokemon will stay in Low. RB Machop and Yellow Machamp will be merged.


    Changes (open)
    Machop/Machamp
    • Let's merge these. Since the Yellow Machamp analysis is clearly the superior of the two, we'll delete the RB Machop analysis and use Yellow Machamp as the base to which RB information should be added. The analysis will be for Machop, not Machamp, just to be consistent with everything else.
    • Although the fact that Yellow Machamp is an in-game trade is mentioned, it doesn't seem to mention anywhere the benefits of boosted experience.
    • I think stats should be a bit more specific. Its physical bulk isn't actually that bad, but "average defenses" could make you believe that it is. This is more of a nitpick than anything, but whatever. Maybe just list all of its stats in some way as the stats speak for themselves really.
    • Movepool should discuss that lack of a good STAB since Submission is a notoriously bad move, and Low Kick is a bit weak. Also mention Karate Chop because of its high (but not perfect in Machamp's case) crit rate. Probably emphasize more clearly that access to Earthquake and Rock Slide is one of the main things separating it from most other Fighting types.
    • Power: Should mention that low Speed hinders its sweeping ability at times, although it should be enough for many regular trainers.
    • Type section should mention super-effective hits on common Normal types, which is the main thing Fighting has going for it.
    Paras
    • Misty: Stun Spore is useful for the paralysis on Starmie.
    • Additional comments: I'd probably just remove the last sentence about not being able to learn Flash in 1st gen. It just seems like random trivia that adds nothing to the analysis.
    Pidgey
    • Should mention somewhere that Pidgeot's bulk is better than the other Normal/Flying types, which is an advantage over those guys.
    • Movepool: Probably should mention Double-Edge rather than Take Down.
    • Lt. Surge: I doubt Pikachu would "destroy" you even with ThunderShock.
    • Koga: Mention the Yellow fight. Pidgeot does well against Yellow Koga.
    • Additional comments should be revamped.
    Pinsir
    • I wouldn't call Pinsir's Speed a let down myself. 85 Speed is decent enough. Sure, Alakazam and co. will beat you but Pinsir's fast enough for regular trainers.
    • "he can only learn non-Normal moves (besides Seismic Toss) through TM" - actually the opposite is true, I think I understand what the writer was trying to say but the sentence is worded badly. Should mention that Slash is learned at level 49, which means that its best options until then for Body Slam, Submission, Strength and Vice Grip.
    • Power: it should be able to set up Swords Dance against Physical Pokemon ok. I wouldn't say its Speed harms the use of Guillotine that much, it isn't that slow.
    • Type: er, I don't think having STAB on Submission would make it much better! Personally I'd probably just remove the whole first half of that section.
    • Agatha: Seismic Toss can hit her Ghosts for what it's worth.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    This will be the final round.


    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next Pokemon up will be:

    Porygon (open)
    -Porygon - Low Tier
    -Availability: Porygon is obtained as a prize from the Game Corner. In Red and Yellow, it costs an obscene 9999 coins and comes at level 26. In Blue, it is a relatively more reasonable 6500 coins, but comes at level 18, somewhat cancelling out the advantage (although Blue players probably do have it better). Although this may seem like it would take ages to obtain, it is possible to obtain it at least mid-game, before the 5th gym (and even before the 4th in Blue). This involves finding and selling every single item that you don’t absolutely need, including useless TMs and vitamins. You should keep your spending to a minimum, and you should do every battle possible to get as much money as possible. Then you simply buy all the coins that are required. This is the quickest way to get it, although this requires you to sacrifice many items. If you aren’t willing to be that anal about it, then you don’t have to be, but don’t expect to get Porygon before late-game.
    -Stats: Porygon has poor stats overall. Its highest stat, Special, is a mere 75, giving it barely average special hit taking abilities, and limiting its power. 60 Attack makes it hard to use STABs properly, 65 Defence is not impressive, and 40 Speed makes it slow as hell. These deficiencies will really begin to show as the game goes on.
    -Movepool: Porygon actually has an interesting level-up movepool, although that doesn’t necessarily translate to a great one. Tackle, Psybeam and Tri Attack are all it gets for offensive options. What Porygon DOES get is Recover, which is useful on anything that gets it. It also gets the gimmicky Conversion, which works well in 1st gen thanks to most opponents only running STAB + Normal coverage. Changing into a type that resists itself can improve its survivability, especially with Recover. It is a bit too slow to abuse this properly though. Agility can be run to fix its speed issues. Porygon’s offense will come from TMs, where you have Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt and Psychic to pick from. This provides excellent coverage and makes Porygon much more useful, albeit at the cost of the TMs.
    -Power: If you can get it mid-game, Porygon can pull its weight for a little while. It can carry Psychic + Electric coverage, which is phenomenal along the routes heading towards Fuchsia. It also works well against Rocket Grunts. However, later in the game where everything is fully evolved and has better stats, Porygon’s poor stats really begin to show.
    -Type: ‘Beige’ is probably the best way to describe Normal. Normal has no super-effective coverage, which contributes to why Porygon shouldn’t really be using STAB moves in the first place (the low Attack is also a key reason). Porygon also lacks resistances which is disappointing. It would really kill for some to potentially give it better bulk. Of course, this all gets thrown out the window when Conversion comes into play!
    -Match-ups: Koga – Conversion is a huge help in RB, allowing you to take his hits much more easily. Psychic coverage helps immensely. Don’t use Conversion in Yellow, as you’ll make yourself weak to Psychic. Just spam Psychic attacks until you die.
    Sabrina – Avoid this battle. Porygon is too slow and weak. Conversion may seem helpful but it’ll be hard to pull it off before you get hit. Clearly you’ll beat Abra in Yellow though.
    Blaine – You get screwed by your low stats once again. In RB, Growlithe and Ponyta are beatable, but otherwise you don’t do much.
    Giovanni – Again, stats prevent you from truely owning this battle, despite the type coverage.
    Lorelei – Conversion + Thunderbolt can work here, but only if you manage to pull it off in time (you are so slow). Lapras is the toughest opponent thanks to Body Slam.
    Bruno – You can beat Onix with Blizzard. Hitmonchan is beatable with Psychic since it lacks any Fighting attacks besides Counter. Avoid Hitmonlee and Machamp.
    Agatha – Psychic covers everything, but have fun getting a hit in while she has her way with you with her annoying status moves. If she switches a lot against you, you might be able to do something.
    Lance – Blizzard and Thunderbolt provide perfect coverage. You can actually do ok here since his Pokémon use mostly crappy or unSTABed moves, but a full sweep is difficult to pull off.
    Blue – Interestingly, if you carry Thunderbolt, Blizzard/Ice Beam and Psychic, you have super-effective coverage on everything except Alakazam, Arcanine, Magneton, Ninetales and Jolteon. You can contribute here, but your low stats will make a complete sweep a real challenge.
    -Additional Comments: This just isn’t a good Pokémon. It is way too much trouble to obtain, requiring a lot of sacrifices to get at a reasonable time. Once you get it, it just doesn’t perform well enough to justify obtaining it in the first place. It is an interesting choice, but this should be left for your fun teams.


    Rhyhorn (open)
    Rhyhorn - Low Tier
    Availability: Mid-game at the earliest. It is uncommonly found at levels 25-26 in the Safari Zone, and it is found in 2 of the 3 areas. There is a 15% chance of encountering one, so it is likely you will find a Rhyhorn somewhere. Their catch rate isn't too bad either, it can take a few attempts to get one. The only other place you can get one is in Cerulean Cave in Pokemon Yellow Version, but that's much later than practical.
    Stats: Massive Attack and Defense make Rhyhorn/Rhydon an absolute powerhouse, and with a great HP stat it makes it a very strong pokemon. Unfortunately, it's low speed really hinders it and it's low special means that it should stay away from special moves.
    Movepool: Rhyhorn has incredible TM capability, the kind most special sweepers would dream of, despite having a terrible special stat. As for level-up, Rhyhorn gets very little moves of any worth, and actually relies on TMs to give it STAB moves.
    Power: Pure power best describes Rhydon, anything it hits, it KO's. It doesn't score many critical hits, but the raw damage output is always significant.
    Type: Rock and Ground type are both great offensively, but defensively it's so-so. Immunity to Electric and resistance to Fire and Normal is great, but weakness to Grass (x4), Water (x4), Fighting (x2) and Ice (x2) is less than desirable.
    Match-ups:
    Erika: If you have Rhyhorn at this point (unlikely) then this is the last place to use it. Everything in this gym is faster and can cripple you with status or OHKO with STAB 4x Grass moves against your miserable Special stat. Leave Rhyhorn at home.
    Koga: Rhyhorn wrecks if you gave it Dig or Earthquake, but if you didn't, it's very likely you will have normal-type moves. Rhyhorn still does ok in that case though, but watch out for poison.
    Sabrina: Sabrina wrecks you here. Her pokemon are fast, high-powered and hit you in your pathetic Special stat. Even without weaknesses this is a bad match-up, although if you can survive a hit you can beat Kadabra as it's frail. But that's still a big IF.
    Blaine: You come in with type advantage, but you won't like fighting here. Everything is faster than Rhyhorn, and even though he resists Fire, his special stat is atrocious. In addition, if Rhyhorn is burned, it will be pretty much useless. That being said, Rhydon should be able to take out Growlithe. The biggest threats come from Ponyta and Rapidash, who will both be faster than you and will trap you with Fire Spin. If you can move successfully however, you should take them out in 1 shot. Arcanine is a much bigger deal as you will be weakened by the time he arrives, and even though you resist Fire Blast, it can still KO you (or burn and cripple your attack stat).
    Giovanni: This match-up very much depends on whether you taught Rhydon Earthquake/Dig, and only fight with Rhydon if he's level 51 to outspeed Giovanni's Rhydon, otherwise you risk Fissure. In this battle, Rhyhorn only knows crappy normal moves, Nidoking/Queen only have normal and poison moves and Rhydon can only hurt you with a lucky Fissure/Horn Drill. All of these Pokemon are hit supereffectively by Ground moves as well, but watch out for Dugtrio, because you won't like a STAB Dig (but is countered by your own Dig funnily enough).
    Lorelei: Avoid avoid avoid. Lorlei can hit you with 4x Water moves and 2x Ice moves, and most of her Pokemon will be significantly faster than you. However, if you MUST fight her with Rhydon, make sure he knows Rock Slide to hit them back for 2x damage.
    Bruno: Odd, but he actually does OK here. Both Onix are no trouble at all, and he can probably take down one Fighting-type Pokemon due to his high defense. However, Rhydon get's worn down very easily here, and won't solo unless he is extremely over-levelled.
    Agatha: The sheer speed of her Pokemon plus Confusion/Sleep hax that her pokemon carry don't guarantee a quick or efficient sweep. If you can avoid these though (unlikely), then it's a clean sweep for Rhydon, as the best move each of them carry is essentially Night Shade.
    Lance: If Rhydon ever picked a single moment to shine, it's here. Aside from Gyarados, Rhydon picks apart this team like it's no big deal. The only moves that any of them use are normal-type, and with Rhydon's massive defense and type resistance, it will be able to shake off the damage. It's worth noting though, Aerodactyl is still dangerous with Supersonic and immunity to Ground-type moves. In Yellow, Rhydon has a tougher time as his Dragonair has Ice Beam and Bubblebeam, while Dragonite now has Blizzard, but on the flip side, Aerodactyl no longer has supersonic, and the other Dragonair carries Thunderbolt (which you are immune to).
    Rival: It doesn't matter what your Rival will be using here, he's going to have a different way of ending Rhydon in almost all circumstances. Charizard is the best starter to come up against due to it's weakness to Rock, but your terrible special means you will be eating Fire Blasts. Your Rhydon should be able to beat Pidgeot though, as it's frail. Exeggutor can be annoying with Hypnosis, but he only knows normal moves so he's no threat. Arcanine is easily beat, as Ember is piss-poor and his other moves just aren't up to scratch. The key Pokemon for Rhydon to completely avoid here is Blastoise, Venasaur, Alakazam and Gyarados who can all outspeed and OHKO.
    Additional Notes: Rhydon would be awesome if it actually learned a single STAB move by level-up. And while it is able to beat regular trainers, it's useless in almost all of the important battles. It's unlikely that you saved Dig for Rhydon, and I would be hesitant to teach it Rock Slide and/or Earthquake. But, if you HAVE to use Rhydon, you need to give it these moves, it depends on them. Rhydon's TM movepool is amazing when it comes to special attacks, but unlike the Nidos, he doesn't have the stats to use them. In fact, Rhydon is a great special attacker in the same way Alakazam is a great physical wall. Rhydon does have a couple of interesting uses outside of battle, as it is able to use both Surf and Strength, so it's not a terrible HM slave. Overall, stick with Golem, Sandslash, Dugtrio, Nidoking or Nidoqueen, Rhyhorn is completely outclassed.


    Scyther (open)
    Scyther (unavailable in Blue) - Low Tier
    -Availability: There are 2 ways to get a Scyther, and neither of them are pretty. The less expensive but also less recommended way is by looking for it in the Safari Zone. Keep in mind that it's a 4% encounter at best, and they tend to run away after one turn. The recommended but far more expensive method is to spend 110,000 poke (130,000 in Yellow) at the Game Corner. Regardless of the method, it'll be at level 25 (or close to it) when you get it.
    -Stats: It has good Attack and great Speed. It also has enough bulk to take a few neutral physical hits.
    -Movepool: Scyther's movepool is disappointingly shallow, outside of Slash (which it learns at level 29). It learns Swords Dance and Agility, but it never has a use for either of them, as Slash's omnipresent criticals negate the attack boosts from Swords Dance and Scyther's already faster than almost everything already, making Agility useless. Also, its attacking movepool is composed entirely of Normal-type attacks, with the exception of Wing Attack in Yellow, but Scyther doesn't learn it until level 50, and it's so weak that the only thing it hits harder than Slash is Ghost-types, which are in only one battle in the game by the time Scyther might have learned it.
    -Power: By the time you get it (assuming you played the game normally), you'll be at Pokemon Tower, where the majority of enemies happen to be Ghost-types, which wall Scyther completely. Assuming you chose to go to Cycling Road first, Scyther's going to have a very rough time catching up thanks to seemingly everybody there having a Poison-type with good Defense. Also, even with Slash, it still has a bit of trouble OHKOing Pokemon that have decent Defense.
    -Typing: With everything else it has in mind, Scyther really would've appreciated if it was at least part Normal-type, so it would get STAB from Slash. Instead, it gets no STAB whatsoever (if you say Wing Attack...) as well as a weakness to Poison-type attacks. At least it isn't part Grass-type...
    -Match-ups: Note: All of the following are assuming Scyther knows Slash, as its capabilities are quite feeble without it.
    --Lt. Surge: His team is swept in Red, but Raichu can occasionally survive a Slash in Yellow thanks to its higher level and then proceed to OHKO with Thunderbolt.
    --Erika: Scyther's faster than her team, making Wrap not as threatening as it would've been (unless of course Scyther got paralyzed prior to the fight), and it has a 4x resistance to Grass-type moves.
    --Koga: Considering Scyther's weak to Poison-type attacks and Slash failing to 2HKO Koffing, things won't go well for it in Red. In Yellow, it has a better chance, and might be able to take down more than one of his Pokemon, assuming none of them use Stun Spore or Sleep Powder.
    --Sabrina: Her entire team is outsped, and Kadabra and Mr. Mime are flat out OHKOed by Slash. Venomoth and Alakazam can both survive one Slash, but they need to use Psybeam and Psychic to beat Scyther. In Yellow, Scyther loses the Speed advantage and the ability to OHKO Kadabra, because of it being higher levelled.
    --Blaine: Every member of his team knows Fire Blast, and as such I feel no need to explain what the outcome of this battle might be.
    --Giovanni: His Rhyhorn/don wall Scyther, and the Nidos have enough bulk to take a Slash. In the transition from Red to Yellow, there's good news and bad news: the good news it that he got rid of his Rhyhorn and Dugtrio can no longer touch Scyther. The bad news is that Persian can do more to you than Rhyhorn can, and the Nidos learned Thunder.
    --Lorelei: All of her Pokemon (barring Jynx, who is outsped and OHKOed) fit at least 1 of 2 criteria:
    1. Can take repeated Slashes.
    2. Know an Ice-type move of some sort.
    --Bruno: This battle features a double rarity: His Onix actually holding their own against something, and Hitmonchan being genuinely threatening (thanks, Counter!).
    --Agatha: Nothing doing.
    --Lance: Hyper Beam does a chunk regardless of who's using it, and Scyther has trouble 2HKOing anything on his team. In Yellow, things are even more hostile, as all of his Pokemon, with the exception of Gyarados, know super-effective moves.
    --Rival: First of all, make a list of every Pokemon he'll use when you fight him. Then, cross out anything that's faster than Scyther, are physically bulky, or have a type advantage. The remaining Pokemon on the list should be Exeggutor and Venusaur, as while Blastoise and Vaporeon don't completely meet any of the above categories, keep in mind that they know Ice-type attacks.
    -Additional Comments: Scyther is the closest thing to a one-trick pony in RBY; it has Slash, but nothing else. It's also one of the most expensive Pokemon in the game, second only to Porygon, and when all you get from 5500 coins is a Pokemon which has only one good move (which has absolutely no super-effective coverage), something's wrong.


    Tangela (open)
    -Tangela - Low Tier
    -Availability: In RB it is caught after you get Surf south of Pallet Town. It isn’t too difficult to find usually but it needs some time to catch up to the rest of your team. Annoyingly, there aren’t any particularly good spots to grind it, although the Power Plant and Seaform Islands are ok choices. In Yellow, it is purely a Safari Zone Pokémon and is therefore harder to obtain (though it can be obtained sooner).
    -Stats: Tangela has good stats overall. 115 Defence and 100 Special allows it to take all kinds of hits. It is a bit slow though, and its Attack is disappointing.
    -Movepool: Tangela’s movepool is horrible. It is capable of learning Grass and Normal attacks. Because of its low Attack, its Normal attacks are mostly worthless. What’s worse is that it can’t learn Razor Leaf or Petal Dance, which leaves it with SolarBeam and Mega Drain as its best options. This limits its overall power. It does have access to the status powders though, which helps it defeat things.
    -Power: Tangela is really held back by its movepool. To get around anything with resistance to Grass, it has to resort to Bind-trapping and its status moves to win, neither of which is particularly fast. Even against opponents that lack Grass resistance, it often can’t OHKO anything because Mega Drain is a weak attack and SolarBeam takes 2 turns. It can OHKO things with a Grass weakness, but that’s it.
    -Type: Grass really is a mixed bag as an attacking type. It does hit some important Pokémon super-effectively, but it’s also resisted by a large number of Pokémon. The same applies from a defensive point of view. Grass has some good resistances but it also has some irritating weaknesses to Flying, Ice, Poison and Fire (and Bug but that isn’t that important). Tangela’s good bulk does help with the weaknesses a bit though, as long as you don’t get overly reckless.
    -Match-ups: Sabrina – You aren’t that good here. You are outsped, Psychic does quite a bit of damage and you can’t do much back to her.
    Blaine – You are pretty useless here. You can’t really do anything useful here unless you have an extreme aount of luck on your side.
    Giovanni – This is one of your better match-ups. Grass hits Dugtrio, Rhyhorn and Rhydon. Nidoqueen and Nidoking can’t do much to you. Persian is a weakling that you can take out just fine. You can actually solo here, which is rare for Tangela.
    Lorelei – Grass is super-effective on most of her team, but Ice is super-effective back. Slowbro can be beaten just fine but there are better choices for everything else.
    Bruno – This is an ok match-up. You kill Onix and you can take on the fighting types thanks to your high Defence and their low Special.
    Agatha – Don’t bother. You can’t touch anything here and they have their way with you with their annoying movesets.
    Lance – Gyarados is the thing you stand the greatest chance against. Aerodactyl is doable in RB thanks to its lack of Flying moves (watch for Supersonic). In RB, you can take their hits but you can’t do much back (you may need to resort to status moves). In Yellow, 2 of the Dragons have Ice moves.
    Blue – Your best match-ups are Rhydon, Blastoise, Sandslash, Magneton, Vaporeon, Jolteon and Cloyster. Watch for Ice attacks from the Water types.
    -Additional Comments: Tangela has nice stats but its movepool is just too small to make this a good choice for an efficient run. It is the worst Grass type in the game and it is incapable of doing much of anything that would make it a worthwhile choice.


    Tauros (open)
    -Tauros - Low Tier
    -Availability: Tauros can only be found in the Safari Zone. In RB, it is rare (4% encounter rate in area 3), has a low catch rate and tends to flee. It comes at level 26 at a minimum, which is somewhat underleveled (but not completely unsalvageable). This makes it a very inaccessible Pokémon indeed. In Yellow it is slightly more common (10% encounter rate in area 1 and 3), but comes at level 21 and retains its low catch rate.
    -Stats: Tauros’s stats are impressive overall. 100 Attack and 110 Speed are perfect for sweeping through regular trainers quickly. 70 HP, 95 Defence and 70 Special give it decent bulk. 70 Special also allows it to use special attacks well.
    -Movepool: Tauros’s level up movepool is very small. Stomp is a good move to start off with, but since Strength comes at around the same time that Tauros does you might as well use that. Although you can get away with just Strength if you want to, Tauros really appreciates TM support to be as effective as possible. It gets several Normal TMs, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Earthquake as strong options, but it is a big ask to actually reserve all of these for such an difficult-to-obtain Pokémon. Chances are that you might be able to take some of these, but simply have Nidoking/Nidoqueen and a Water type on your team (which is a fairly “standard” team in in-game first gen) can take most of these away and that leaves Tauros with nothing. As a result, you may have to build your team with these restrictions in mind if you plan to use it with its best possible moveset.
    -Power: Tauros is an excellent sweeper, especially if you gave it TM support to improve its coverage. Strength should be sufficient to at least 2HKO most things though, and obviously standard trainers are going to fold to it. However, it isn’t the monster it could be if you rely on Strength alone, which you kind of want it to be if you are going that much out of your way to get it.
    -Type: Normal has wide neutral coverage but no super effective coverage to speak of. This does allow Tauros to run mono-Normal coverage if it wants to, although some super effective coverage would have been nice to get more OHKOs. It’s a similar situation defensively, with only one weakness but only one immunity.
    -Match-ups: Koga – In RB, if you have Earthquake, you do well. Without it, you are less effective, although to be honest Koga isn’t really that big of a deal in RB. In Yellow, you do ok too because his Pokémon are frail bugs (albeit high level ones).
    Sabrina – Her Pokémon are frail. You can outspeed and KO her Pokémon with your STAB move.
    Blaine – Earthquake is a huge help here. Even without it you can contribute, and Strength obviously gets the job done against Growlithe and Ponyta in RB, but it needs Earthquake to reliable pull off a quick sweep.
    Giovanni – If you have an Ice (or at least Ground) move then you’ll do well. His Rock types wall you otherwise. Still, your Normal move can hit Dugtrio, Persian, Nidoqueen and Nidoking.
    Lorelei – Tauros can learn Electric moves and if you have one then you cover everything except Jynx, who is KOed by your STAB anyway. But just like most of the other match-ups, it is less effective without the TM support, capable of contributing but not powering through.
    Bruno – Unless you have an Ice move or Earthquake, Onix walls you. Machamp is a huge threat thanks to its bulk and Submission. If you have a Special move then Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are less threatening, but Hitmonlee’s fighting moves are very powerful against Tauros.
    Agatha – Earthquake is needed for her Ghosts. Otherwise, you are hopeless against them. At least Golbat and Arbok can be beaten though.
    Lance – Ice and Electric covers everything. Without them, Aerodactyl walls you, and Gyarados and Dragonite are harder to take down.
    Blue – How useful you are comes down to what you taught it. It should be noted that Rhydon is the only thing that resists Normal though, so at least you can contribute using just your STAB.
    -Additional Comments: Tauros can be amazing if you give it the support from TMs, but without them it isn’t as impressive. Mono-Normal can be described as “reliable”, but it needs the TMs to be able to power through most of the important match-ups as quickly as possible. Given how late Tauros comes, and how difficult it can be to obtain (especially in RB) and train (especially in Yellow), it is difficult to assume that Tauros will have access to its favourite TMs. The final nail in the coffin is its availability. In RB, just catching it can be an excruciating time drain. In Yellow it benefits from a higher encounter rate but is even more underleveled and still have the same problems with catching it, what with the Safari Zone mechanics. If you manage to get it quickly and you can provide it with at least some of its TMs, then it isn’t a bad choice, but it just isn’t a good idea to plan your playthrough with the intent of using it on your team.


    Venonat (open)
    -Venonat - Low Tier
    -Availability: Venonat is unobtainable until you get past Snorlax in RB, on routes 12-15 and in the Safari Zone. It is underleveled when you get it and grinding it is painful. Yellow improved Venonat by adding it to routes 24-25, although it is still a nuisance to grind and it may get in the way of grinding something more useful (like, say, that Bellsprout you are grinding to beat Misty more easily).
    -Stats: Before it evolves, Venonat is a bit pathetic. It does have a good HP stat for an unevolved Pokémon (60) but its attacking stats limit its damage output. When it evolves at level 31, it gains 90 Special and Speed which is pretty solid in RBY. It is physically frail however (70 HP and 60 Defence).
    -Movepool: Most of Venomoth’s best moves come late. Sleep Powder and Psychic don’t arrive until levels 43 and 50 respectively, although if you want you can use the Psychic TM to get it early. In fact, until it gets Psybeam at level 38, its moves (in RB) are Mega Drain, Leech Life and those normal TMs that it probably shouldn’t be using. Yellow at least gave it Confusion at level 19, although it isn’t that strong, especially as a Venonat.
    -Power: Venonat is weak before evolution. Its attacking stats are too low and with just Tackle, Leech Life and maybe Psychic (assuming you used the TM on it) as attacks there isn’t much Venonat can do. It improves after evolution but unless you teach it Psychic straight away it still has a while to go before its power becomes noteworthy.
    -Type: Bug/Poison allows Venomoth to perform well against particular types. The Grass resistance is pretty useful in RBY. The Flying and Psychic weaknesses are probably the most concerning weaknesses it carries (it also has Fire, Rock and Bug weaknesses).
    -Match-ups: Misty (Yellow only): Honestly, what are you going to do here? The best you can do is use Disable and hope it selects BubbleBeam, but if that doesn’t work your out of luck.
    Lt. Surge: Raichu will tear you apart. It’s unlikely that you would have Venonat for Lt. Surge in RB but if you do then maybe you can beat Pikachu and Voltorb (you have a level advantage at this point so at least that's something).
    Erika – You should have Leech Life by now which works well against Grass/Poison types, although it won’t OHKO. You’ll probably receive a status along the way. Weepinbell in Yellow can be annoying if you get nailed with paralysis and Wrap.
    Koga – Hopefully you have at least Psybeam by now (or you used the Psychic TM). Either of those are great for this battle and the immunity to poison status is neat too. This is a mirror match in Yellow, but a level 35-40 Venomoth is not going to beat a level 50 Venomoth without luck.
    Sabrina – Stay away! Her Pokémon have powerful super-effective STABs and resist your strongest attacks. Leech Life is super-effective but it’s not going to help. You should beat her Venomoth at least.
    Blaine – Fire weakness is unfortunate. Growlithe and Ponyta should be beatable. Rapidash can potentially trap you with Fire Spin although you should be faster than it in RB (Yellow Rapidash may or may not be faster depending on how close you are to level 50).
    Giovanni – This shouldn’t be too hard. Your Psychic moves are super-effective against the Nidos and Mega Drain is an option for the Ground types. Most of his Pokémon can’t do much to you in RB. In Yellow you’ll need to be careful around Rock Slide, Earthquake and Slash hitting your low Defense.
    Lorelei – Venomoth does nothing special here. Mega Drain is super-effective against 80% of her team (note that Psychic does more damage to 3 of the 4 grass weak Pokémon) but they can hit back hard. You can maybe take on one or two Pokémon before you die. Stay away from Slowbro in Yellow as it has Psychic.
    Bruno – Psybeam/Psychic the Fighting types and Mega Drain Onix. You win.
    Agatha – Psychic hits her whole team. You just have to watch for Psychic (from her second Gengar) and status moves.
    Lance – Being physically frail doesn’t help you much for this battle. Venomoth honestly has no business participating in this battle. You could maybe take one or two things down but you might as well leave it to something else.
    Blue – Mega Drain is nice for Rhydon and Leech Life is great for Exeggutor and Venusaur. Like basically every Pokémon in this game, Venomoth can contribute in this battle. Really, just stay away from obvious bad match-ups (Alakazam, Charizard, etc.) and you’ll be fine.
    -Additional Comments: It takes far too long to become even remotely good. It literally does almost nothing before Psychic in Yellow, and if you aren’t able to spend the TM on it then it is mediocre for a large portion of the game. It is even worse in RB as it comes much later and doesn’t even get Confusion, so it only has access to terrible moves before Psybeam and Psychic.


    Vulpix (open)
    Vulpix: Low Tier
    -Availability: Midgame. In Blue, Vulpix can either be found before Celadon City (where you can buy a Fire Stone and evolve him straight away), or in the Pokemon Mansion. In Yellow, Vulpix is obtained through the Game Corner, which is also in Celadon.
    -Stats: Ninetails has very good Speed and Special. Its Special allows it to take Special Hits (provided they are not Water moves), and it outspeeds a lot of Pokemon. However, the rest of his stats are average at best.
    -Movepool: If you evolve it into Ninetails straight away, you'll be stuck with Ember unless you feed it TM's such as Fire Blast, Body Slam, and Dig. Keep in mind the latter 2 TM are in very high demand in this game. Fire Blast also comes only later on in the game and has low PP, which may cause issues when fighting the Elite 4.
    If you keep him as Vulpix or catch him later at Pokemon Mansion, you can train him to learn Confuse Ray and Flamethrower. However, Confuse Ray is not the most efficient strategy as it is a luck based moved. While Flamethrower may seem tempting, by the time you get it, Fire loses much of its value due to not being especially good against the majority of latter gym leaders/E4.
    -Power: Not very powerful at all. Evolving it straight into Ninetails means you are stuck with Ember as your STAB.
    -Type: Fire
    Offensively, it hits Bug, Grass, and Ice for Super Effective damage. By the time you get Vulpix, you'll barely have any Bug and Ice types to fight. The majority of Bug users are battled before Celadon, where as the only Ice type you battle (that is weak to Fire) is Lorelei's Jynx. Grass is still common at this point, but you also get HM 02 Fly and TM13 Ice Beam to hit Grass types with. Fire is resisted by Rock, Water, Fire, and Dragon. Most Rock types you face in-game have weak Special and wont even like taking resisted hits, and there is only one Dragon user in the game. However, Water is problematic for Ninetails, especially with how common it is late game (all the water trainers in the water surrounding Cinnabar Island).
    Fire also offers resists to Bug, Grass, and Fire. However, he is also weak to Water, Ground, and Rock moves, which is more common than Bug/Grass/Fire moves.
    -Mathups:
    --Erika: Despite the type advantage, Ninetails only has Ember which will not sweep her team. Also, status moves put a serious damper on Ninetails performance.
    --Koga: If Ninetails was given the Dig TM, it can hit his entire team for Super Effective damage, just watch out for getting poisoned. In Yellow, Koga uses Venonats/Venomoth who are weak to Fire. However, much like Erika, you'll be stuck with Ember and Ninetails will not like being poisoned.
    --Sabrina: Ninetails has the Special Bulk to survive Sabrina's move and can use Body Slam/Dig to hit her physically frail Pokemon.
    --Blaine: Dig hits his whole team for Super Effective damage. While Growlithe and Ponyta are not threats, his Rapidash and Arcanine can survive a Dig. Rapidash and Arcanine also both have goo Physical Attack and can hurt Ninetails with Stomp/Take Down.
    --Giovanni: Dig is Super Effective on his whole team except for Dugtrio. Despite that, Giovanni's Pokemon can take a Dig from Ninetails and wear it down with their own moves. His Dugtrio also knows Dig.
    In Yellow, almost all his Pokemon know Earthquake, easily taking Ninetails out.
    --Lorelei: The only one who Ninetails can safely take on is Jynx, due to her weakness to Fire.
    --Bruno: His Pokemon have low Special and don't like taking Flamethower/Fire Blast. Might want to be vary on Fire Blast PP, though.
    --Agatha: If you have Dig, it deals a lot of damage to her team as they are all weak to Ground except Golbat. Golbat isn't too hard to take out either, but watch out for Confuse Ray or Toxic.
    --Lance: His entire team resists Fire and their powerful Hyper Beams will hurt Ninetails. Even worse, Lance's Gyarados knows Hydro Pump, which will make short work of Ninetails.
    --Gary: STAB Fire moves can take out his Grass Pokemon, while Dig can hurt his Electric types, Rhydon, and Fire types (excluding Charizard). However, his Water types are a huge threat to Ninetails, and in Yellow his Sandslash can Earthquake you.
    Additional Comments: Ninetails does well against some Gym Leaders/E4 members, but at the same time, its at the cost of using up two of the most valuable TM in the games - Body Slam and Dig. There will be plenty of other people who will want those two TM's, and can use it better than Ninetails. Hence why I'm placing Ninetails as Low Tier.


    Weedle (open)
    -Weedle (Red and Blue only) - Low Tier
    -Availability: Weedle are easy to obtain, just search for them in Viridian Forest. They can also be found at Route 2 in Red, but it's better just to go into the forest and look for them there, as you have a higher chance of finding them there. They also evolve quite early, at level 7 and then level 10.
    -Stats: This here is the main reason why Weedle's bad. Its stats are unimpressive all across the board, even after it fully evolves, with its highest base stat being 80 Attack.
    -Movepool: Its only attacking moves are the weak Poison Sting and the unreliable Fury Attack until it learns Twineedle at level 20. Twineedle, and later Pin Missile, are Bug-type moves, which, back in the day, hit Poison-types super-effectively, essentially meaning Beedrill hits a decent chunk of the later mid-game super-effectively. It also learns Agility and Swords Dance (although you'll need TM03 for the latter), which are absolutely essential for its performance against most of the later bosses. Also, it can learn Mega Drain, which allows it to deal with Rock/Ground-types, but has little use otherwise, as most of the Water-types in the game are hit just as hard, if not harder, by Twineedle or Pin Missile. Unfortunately, Pin Missile and Twineedle don't exactly have the best base powers in the game, with Twineedle being 75 after STAB is factored in.
    -Power: With only Poison Sting and Fury Attack for the first two badges, Beedrill's not doing very well. Then, when it learns Twineedle, it actually does adequately, easily defeating the majority of things weak to it. It also does well in Pokemon Tower, outspeeding and OHKOing the Ghost-types that haunt the tower. Soon after that, however, Beedrill hits the wall known as Koffing, and realizes that the only way for it to KO them in one turn is to hope for the 25% chance of Pin Missile hitting at least 4 times. Soon afterwards, it runs into Weezing, whom it can't OHKO at all without the aid of a critical hit. Another thing: don't use the terms "Bird Keeper" and "Beedrill" in the same sentence, for Beedrill's sake.
    -Type: Bug is, as mentioned above, one of the best STABs to have in RBY. Beedrill also has a secondary Poison typing, giving it a neutrality to Poison-type attacks, but also giving it a Psychic weakness, meaning Beedrill can't effectively take them on.
    -Match-ups:
    --Brock: Considering the fact that his Pokemon resist every move Kakuna (or Beedrill, depending on whether you grinded it or not) has, and that they have high Defense, breaking through them just won't work. And before you say something like "But Poison Sting poisons them!" keep in mind that Brock has Full Heals at his disposal.
    --Misty: While her Starmie is indeed weak to Twineedle, it is faster than Beedrill and its BubbleBeam is fully capable of OHKOing it.
    --Lt. Surge: Beedrill can beat his Voltorb and Pikachu with little to no problem, but Raichu can fry it with a Thunderbolt.
    --Erika: This is the part of the game where Beedrill is at its best. It literally OHKOes everything in this Gym (except for Erika's Tangela, but what would it honestly do in retaliation?) with Twineedle. Ahhh, 4x weaknesses...
    --Koga: You'll need to set up 3 Swords Dances to stand a chance against him, and keep in mind that his Pokemon can use Smokescreen repeatedly while you're setting up.
    --Sabrina: Her Kadabra outspeeds and OHKOes you. However, if Beedrill sets up an Agility on her Mr. Mime, it can take out her Alakazam as well as Mr. Mime if it didn't use Barrier. Also, since she has a Venomoth, which can survive a Pin Missile most of the time, you'll probably want to use Swords Dance, at least if it wasn't for the fact that Mr. Mime's Confusion 2HKOes.
    --Blaine: While you might be able to set up on him, keep in mind that Rapidash can weather a +6 5-hit Pin Missile and proceed to trap Beedrill, beating it in only 3 turns. If you made it past Rapidash, his Arcanine is much bulkier than it looks, having the ability to survive at least 10 +6 Pin Missile impacts.
    --Giovanni: First of all, you need Mega Drain to beat his Rhyhorn (and Rhydon), which is the only Pokemon he has that Beedrill can properly set up on. Once that is done, feel free to 2HKO Rhyhorn with Mega Drain, and after that, you can Pin Missile his Dugtrio and Nidos. Remember that Dugtrio is faster than an unboosted Beedrill, and Nidoqueen has the bulk to take a +6 5-hit Pin Missile, meaning they both have an opportunity to fire attacks back at Beedrill.
    --Lorelei: Because Rest is a Psychic-type move, Dewgong will repeatedly use it against Beedrill, allowing it to set up as much as it wants. Unfortunately, Slowbro, Cloyster, and Lapras have enough bulk to easily take a +6 Pin Missile.
    --Bruno: As with Giovanni, his first Pokemon is a non-threatening Rock/Ground-type that can be set up on and 2HKOed by Mega Drain. While his entire team resists Bug-type attacks, +6 Pin Missile is still strong enough to take out his Hitmonlee in approximately 4 hits. The only things you need to watch out for are Mega Punch, Mega Kick, and Karate Chop.
    --Agatha: Unlike the previous two, Beedrill can't set up on any of her Pokemon, as they all know status moves of some sort that can (and will) disrupt any setup attempts.
    --Lance: While it can't beat his Gyarados, it can set up on his Dragonair, both of which know Agility. Keep in mind that unless Beedrill knows Agility as well, it won't defeat Aerodactyl, who is faster and can survive a +6 Pin Missile. Also, Dragonite will do nothing against it, as it knows Barrier and Agility, and will use them against Poison-types (like Beedrill!)
    --Blue: Just like with Agatha, Beedrill has no setup opportunities, and as such is of no use to you for this battle.
    -Additional Comments: Weedle comes (and evolves) early and its primary STAB is very useful in-game, but when it comes down to it, it just doesn't hit hard enough against its intended targets to be a great help. The added Psychic weakness, lack of Bug-type attacks until level 20, and the low base power of the STAB moves themselves don't exactly help its cause either.


    Zubat (open)
    -Zubat - Low Tier
    -Availability: You can get it before the second badge in Mt. Moon. Zubat’s relative weakness does mean that you’ll need to grind it though, regardless of the level you catch it (it can be as high as level 12 in RB and 13 in Yellow), which is a pain since it can only beat opposing Zubat at this point. It is a tedious task, made worse by Leech Life’s low PP forcing you to run back and forth between Mt. Moon and the Pokémon centre outside.
    -Stats: Golbat’s stats are not particularly great but they aren’t completely horrible either. It is quite quick, and 75 HP, 80 Attack, 70 Defence and 75 Special are ok given how early you evolve (they aren’t all that good late game though).
    -Movepool: Its level-up movepool is unbelievably bad. Bite at level 15 is its strongest attack by level up. This is fine early on and the flinches it provides are helpful but the lack of power shows later on. Its TM movepool isn’t much better. Mega Drain, Double-Edge and Take Down are all you’re getting (it doesn’t even get Fly). Don’t be surprised if your moveset ends up being (Bite or Double-Edge)/Mega Drain/Leech Life/Wing Attack or something weird like that.
    -Power: Bite can 2HKO some of the weaker Pokémon but during important battles, and later on in general, you will take more and more turns to kill things, so it can’t really power through routes.
    -Type: Wing Attack is its only STAB and it is too weak to be of much use. From a defensive point of view, Poison/Flying (besides being unique) has some useful resistances (Ground/Fighting/Grass/Poison) and provides immunity to Poison but also provides weaknesses to Electric/Ice/Rock/Psychic, all of which are used in some important battles.
    -Match-ups: Misty – Not that helpful. It can beat Staryu but it isn’t guaranteed to be faster and may take damage, and it will lose to Starmie
    Lt. Surge – Thunderbolt will kill you.
    Erika – Tangela is somewhat annoying due to physical bulk but can’t do much back, and Weepinbel and Gloom are at least 3HKOed by Leech Life (watch for Sleep Powder).
    Koga – Depends on your level. Poison immunity is good and RB Koga shouldn't be that hard, though it doesn't exactly take everything down in one hit either. Psychic is super-effective but Golbat can take 1 or 2 from Venonat before going down.
    Sabrina – Bite and Leech Life ok damage but Psychic OHKOs.
    Blaine – Depends on level; Ninetales’s Flamethrower does a lot of damage, as does Arcanine’s Flamethrower and Fire Blast. Rapidash can Fire Spin trap you. Not really that good here, though RB Blaine is significantly easier.
    Giovanni – Beats Dugtrio. Note that in Yellow, Persian’s Double Team is annoying thanks to its inability to kill it quickly, Nidoqueen and Nidoking have Thunder and Rhydon has Rock Slide (Mega Drain is good here though).
    Lorelei – So many Ice attacks! Golbat isn’t good here.
    Bruno – Mega Drain kills Onix. The 4x Fighting resistance is useful and Hitmonchan’s elemental punches are too weak to be that big of a concern (any damage can be recovered back from Mega Draining his second Onix). The Normal attacks are a bit more concerning, but overall Golbat is ok here.
    Agatha – It won’t enjoy Dream Eater (easily dealt with using the Pokeflute) or Psychic, but Mega Drain and Poison resistance is handy. This battle is often down to luck with Confuse Ray and how much Agatha switches against you.
    Lance – It does significantly worse in Yellow due to Ice Beam, Blizzard and Thunderbolt. Otherwise it will probably depend on level (you’ll need to be quite over-levelled to win alone though).
    Blue – In RB you should do ok against Rhydon, Exeggutor, Venusaur, Pidgeot, and Arcanine with a bit of “Take Down missed” luck. In Yellow your best match-ups are Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales and Flareon.
    -Additional Comments: Zubat isn’t as bad as it first seems. Bite is acceptable for a little while, and Mega Drain and Leech Life have niche uses and recover HP simultaneously, which is handy. However, the fact is that Golbat is simply not an efficient battler, taking multiple turns to KO most opponents, and unlike other weak Flying types like Farfetch’d it doesn’t even provide any utility by learning Fly! There is just little justification for using this in an efficient run, making it low tier.


    I'll share what I think later.
  3. KingNeedlesThe1st

    KingNeedlesThe1st

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    I think they're all fine where they are. None of these Pokemon stand out at all to be tier shifted. All have terrible movepools, terrible stats, terrible typing, or some unfortunate combination thereof. The only one I could reasonably see myself using (and have used in the past) is Weedle, but it has a horrendous early game and falls off hard late game due to its stats.
  4. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    About Tangela:
    Tangela actually has a very good stats in RBY, except HP which is pasable with 65, because the Special split and the awful Sp Def in the next gens, but horrible movepool.

    However...

    It is not so slow for being a Grass Type(base 60), although its base Attack is bad(55) learns SD

    It learns Growth at level 48(49 in RB lol) so it can Sleep Lorelei's Dewgong(without Sleep I don't think it could be a problem) and setup to 6 and sweep all her pokes except Jynx.

    While it gets Growth, can attack with SD+Body Slam to almost anything not so weak to Grass.

    However, when it gets Growth it can do only a 1 thing at the same time, or SD+Body Slam or Growth+Giga Drain, because 1 slot is saved for Sleep Powder.

    Against Bruno, Sleep its Onixs and Growth/SD and sweep. Same for Lance, except, in Yellow is harder due to its Dragonair with Ice Beam and Dragonite with Blizzard.

    Sure Venusaur and Victribell they can do it better, but Tangela doesn't seem as bad as it can look. (Only theoryzing)

    However, having to Sleep and SD setup against random trainers...


    About Scyther, it learns Agility at level 42, in Yellow can Agility and SD against Sabrina's Abra and use Swift against her whole team.(Swift to avoid accuracy loss from Abra's Flash)


    Its awful moveset ingame doesn't help either to its usefulness mid-game. It's a shame, it learns SD.
  5. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    The fact that Tangela needs to boost its stats to sweep just emphasizes how bad it is. Those boosting moves probably should be mentioned in the analysis though.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    These Pokemon are all Low tier in my eyes.

    The problem with Porygon is that you need to get it ASAP for it to be useful, something that requires sacrificing a ton of resources. When I tested it, I ended up selling literally every unnecessary item/TM and managed to get it just after Pokemon Tower. Teach it Thunderbolt and watch it go to town along the routes to Fuschia City with Electric+Psychic coverage. Doesn't change the fact that it has mediocre stats and a thin level-up movepool that makes it TM dependent. Cool Pokemon, but not worth it.

    Rhyhorn has a decent typing and can hit hard, but it's slow, arrives and evolves late, and highly dependent on TMs.

    Scyther should be treated like all of the rare Safari Zone Pokemon. At least it's better than Pinsir.

    Tangela has good stats but is ruined by a horrible offensive movepool. It also arrives late.

    Tauros is the best of the Safari Zone Pokemon but is in the same boat. It probably has the best chance of a rise to Mid considering it was actually in Mid at one point, but I don't think so.

    Venonat is horrible before it evolves and is just ok as a Venomoth. It is especially bad in RB because it arrives late, but not even Yellow's earlier availability and slight movepool improvements help it much.

    Vulpix has earlier Flamethrower over other Fire-types but it still needs to grind about 15-20 levels as a Vulpix to get there which isn't good. Evolving it early and skipping Flamethrower isn't much better.

    Weedle's niche is access to STAB Twineedle (the most powerful Bug attack in the game I think). Doesn't make up for its flaws though.

    Zubat has ok stats and a unique type, but it has a horrible movepool (it can't even learn Fly).

    Will comment on analyses later.
  6. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
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    Just a note, Moltres' analysis says not to take on Rhydon, but Rhydon's best move against Moltres is Fury Attack. Moltres can definitely beat it.
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Moltres can beat it but Rhydon is physically bulky and resists Fly, Fire Blast actually maims it quite a bit but its PP is limited and is inaccurate. I suppose "Don't bother fighting his Water Types or Rhydon" should be reworded better and was too harsh, but I was mostly thinking that Rhydon was better off left dying to Razor Leaf/Surf instead of having to waste time by having a longer battle with Moltres.
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    The simplest solution to that would be to remove the "or Rhydon" part from the end of that statement. That way, it no longer implies that Moltres loses to it, while at the same time it doesn't recommend that players actually use up Fire Blast's limited PP to kill Rhydon. Problem solved.

    Also, I'll be doing a quick runthrough of Red to test some stuff. I should be able to get it done today so I'll report tomorrow.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comments

    I wrote Porygon, Tangela, Tauros, Venonat, and Zubat, which leaves me with only 4 analyses to comment on for this final round!

    I think Weedle is fine as is.


    Rhyhorn
    • My main issue with Rhyhorn is unclear wording which leaves certain parts of the analysis ambiguous (in my opinion anyway).
    • Remove the comment about Cerulean Cave at the end. That info doesn't really matter. I think the availability section needs a few words added or removed in parts because as I read the section it feels a bit contradictory at times. For example, it says that its catch rate isn't too high, and then right after says that it can take a few attempts to catch one. This isn't really incorrect, but I think that the way the second part is written makes it seem like Rhyhorn's catch rate is low. Similarly, it says it is uncommon near the start, but then says that you are likely to encounter one somewhere. Maybe it's just me, but I think a few minor tweaks could improve this.
    • In the type section, Rhyhorn is also weak to Ground, which would be a problem against Yellow Giovanni.
    • If Rhyhorn does badly against Erika, including it seems pointless if you have to go that far out of your way to get Rhyhorn before you challenge her.
    • Yellow Koga has Psychic attacks. Venonat probably won't beat you but Venomoth is a real threat.
    • Probably shouldn't undersell the Blaine match-up that much. Even though Rhydon has issues against him, odds are that he will still do alright. Yellow Blaine's Ninetales makes the match-up trickier in Yellow so that should be noted.
    • Yellow Giovanni carries more Ground moves, although you wall Persian. "All of these Pokemon are hit supereffectively by Ground moves as well" - based on where it is placed in the write-up, I assume the writer was talking about Rhyhorn/don and Nidoking/queen, but it can also be read to say that Dugtrio is weak to Ground, which it isn't.
    • Agatha: Makes it seem like all of her Pokemon carry Night Shade. Arbok and Golbat don't, although Rhydon still walls them.
    • Additional comments: "I would be hesitant to teach it Rock Slide and/or Earthquake" - um, why? I mean, I assume the writer is trying to say that it is competing with other Pokemon (many of which come earlier) for these moves, but that could be interpreted differently. Besides, it's not like Rock Slide is a hugely valuable TM (compared to some of the other TMs anyway).
    Scyther
    • Probably should state that its special bulk is quite bad.
    • Emphasize how horrible its defensive typing is (weak to Poison, Rock, Flying, Electric, Fire and Ice).
    • Blaine: Saying that each member of his team knows Fire Blast is flat-out wrong.
    • Bruno: um... I guess you can beat Hitmonlee?
    • I have trouble buying some of the claims the author makes in match-ups. e.g. it implies everything on Lance's team survives 2 Slashes, but surely Dragonair is at least 2HKOed? That's is just one example but there are others. I could be wrong and someone with more experience can weigh in if they want, but just saying...
    Vulpix
    • Should be mroe specific about Vulpix's power. One of the main reasons why we decided Low for Vulpix was because it has to stay unevolved for too long to get Flamethrower so I think this should be explained more that just "Not very powerful at all".
    • The match-ups mostly address Ninetales who has skipped Flamethrower and is using Dig and other TMs. I think Flamethrower Ninetales should be addressed as well, and also unevolved Vulpix for battles where that applies (probably only for the Erika fight).
    • I also think it avoids saying if Ninetales wins or loses in some instances, e.g. it says Dig hits RB Koga's entire team for super-effective damage but doesn't go into whether this would be enough to allow a sweep (I doubt it is). Similar with Sabrina.
    I've probably missed something since I did this rather quickly, so I might go over these again just to see if I can find anything else that can be improved.
  9. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    About Tangela I forgot to say yesterday that it is also found in a Trade in RB in Cinnabar.

    Since it is available surfing down Pallet, it is the same availability than Cinnabar(well, got down Pallet it may grind with the trainers to Cinnabar)
  10. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    In that case, Tangela's availability section will need to be revamped to include info about the trade Tangela. I found that grinding Tangela was a bit painful so the boosted experience should be a huge help.
  11. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I'll end this round soon, but first I want to discuss some other Pokemon that I used in my Red playthrough.

    Note: I'm not going to change anything at the moment.

    Wigglytuff (open)
    Yeah this actually isn't too bad. It has a rough start because it's so underleveled (it is much harder to grind than Clefairy) but it hits very hard for a good portion of the game, and its low Speed wasn't too much of an issue (I don't care much about some random Voltorb outspeeding me). Because my team allowed it, I also gave it Psychic and Thunderbolt just to see how useful they were, and they were good enough for dealing with regular trainers (although I doubt Wigglytuff would be the top choice for these TMs in other playthroughs with better teams). I think Mid is a good fit for Wigglytuff, so I'll leave it there.


    Kingler (open)
    The biggest issue I had with level 23 Kingler was finding a good place to grind it quickly. Normally I use Pokemon Tower for Pokemon of Kingler's level because they give good experience and there's a healing spot in the centre of it, but the Ghosts are immune to Normal and Bubble does next to no damage to them (maybe if BubbleBeam was available to it it might have worked out but Squirtle already took it - should've picked Charmander). I had the option of grinding against the other Route 23 Water-types since they give high experience. However, fishing is tedious, Kingler struggles to beat Slowbro, Seadra and Kingler safely (they all have high Defense and take Body Slam comfortably), and it isn't close to a Pokemon Centre. That leaves... the Route west of Celadon I guess. It carries more managable Pokemon but has low experience yield. If you are willing to head down Cycling Road avoiding trainers (you can come back later and beat them then), the grass west of Fuschia might be a good grinding place because of Fearow giving good experience. That would also give you access to Surf and Strength at the same time. I think that might be the best way to grind it, although I didn't do it that way in this playthrough.

    It is a good battler. Route 12-15 has low level Pokemon that Kingler beats pretty easily. I didn't even have issues with Body Slam's PP because Vice Grip (and later Stomp) were good back-up attacks for finishing things off if Body Slam fell a bit short of a KO. Surf was nice too for weaker Pokemon, and of course Kingler maintains its late-game usefulness. I think Mid is fine for Red Krabby/Kingler. It loses marks because of initial grinding problems, but it is still an ok choice.


    Marowak (open)
    Now that I've had a chance to test it, I actually think this should be in Mid. I was a bit uncomfortable about its low Speed and Special, but I haven't been bothered by it too much.

    This is ridiculously easy to grind. Ground STAB destroys the frail Ghost-types in Pokemon Tower and there is a healing spot right there. It will catch up to your team in a flash. Evolving at level 28 is helpful too. After that it has the Cycling Road, Silph Co. building, and (in RB) Koga. That provides it with a ton of Poison-types to milk experience from. Ground STAB is useful mid-game, and Marowak provides that. It is definitely worse than Diglett, Sandshrew and Geodude, but it is good on its own merits.

    I should say that I don't think all that highly of Bone Club. I get that having STAB Bone Club from level-up is more TM efficient and that this is more supportive of teammates who need Dig or Earthquake, but when I used it I found that Bone Club wasn't quite strong enough at times. A decently leveled Koffing can survive Bone Club, whereas Dig/Earthquake pretty much always OHKO. Basically, if you use Marowak then you should be using Dig or Earthquake on it eventually. If you don't use these moves, you probably shouldn't bother with Marowak (just use the Pokemon that you DID give these moves to deal with Poison-types).

    I still like this in Mid though.
  12. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Ending this round.

    All of these Pokemon will stay in Low.



    Changes (open)
    Rhyhorn
    • My main issue with Rhyhorn is unclear wording which leaves certain parts of the analysis ambiguous (in my opinion anyway).
    • Remove the comment about Cerulean Cave at the end. That info doesn't really matter. I think the availability section needs a few words added or removed in parts because as I read the section it feels a bit contradictory at times. For example, it says that its catch rate isn't too high, and then right after says that it can take a few attempts to catch one. This isn't really incorrect, but I think that the way the second part is written makes it seem like Rhyhorn's catch rate is low. Similarly, it says it is uncommon near the start, but then says that you are likely to encounter one somewhere. Maybe it's just me, but I think a few minor tweaks could improve this.
    • In the type section, Rhyhorn is also weak to Ground, which would be a problem against Yellow Giovanni.
    • If Rhyhorn does badly against Erika, including it seems pointless if you have to go that far out of your way to get Rhyhorn before you challenge her.
    • Yellow Koga has Psychic attacks. Venonat probably won't beat you but Venomoth is a real threat.
    • Probably shouldn't undersell the Blaine match-up that much. Even though Rhydon has issues against him, odds are that he will still do alright. Yellow Blaine's Ninetales makes the match-up trickier in Yellow so that should be noted.
    • Yellow Giovanni carries more Ground moves, although you wall Persian. "All of these Pokemon are hit supereffectively by Ground moves as well" - based on where it is placed in the write-up, I assume the writer was talking about Rhyhorn/don and Nidoking/queen, but it can also be read to say that Dugtrio is weak to Ground, which it isn't.
    • Agatha: Makes it seem like all of her Pokemon carry Night Shade. Arbok and Golbat don't, although Rhydon still walls them.
    • Additional comments: "I would be hesitant to teach it Rock Slide and/or Earthquake" - um, why? I mean, I assume the writer is trying to say that it is competing with other Pokemon (many of which come earlier) for these moves, but that could be interpreted differently. Besides, it's not like Rock Slide is a hugely valuable TM (compared to some of the other TMs anyway).
    Scyther
    • Probably should state that its special bulk is quite bad.
    • Emphasize how horrible its defensive typing is (weak to Poison, Rock, Flying, Electric, Fire and Ice).
    • Blaine: Saying that each member of his team knows Fire Blast is flat-out wrong.
    • Bruno: um... I guess you can beat Hitmonlee?
    • I have trouble buying some of the claims the author makes in match-ups. e.g. it implies everything on Lance's team survives 2 Slashes, but surely Dragonair is at least 2HKOed? That's is just one example but there are others. I could be wrong and someone with more experience can weigh in if they want, but just saying...
    • Sabrina: In Yellow, Agility + Swords Dance + Swift = you win.
    Tangela
    • Edit the availability section to include information about the trade Tangela on Cinabar Island (RB only). It comes at basically the same time as Tangela caught in the wild and the boosted experience is helpful. It has a slightly lower max. level unless you grind the Venonat you're trading away a bit but the extra experience should make up for that.
    • Mention Growth and Swords Dance as they can help it sweep if combined with Swords Dance. Given its horrible offensive movepool, boosting moves are useful (although Growth is basically just X Special).
    • Since we are mentioning setup moves, some of the match-ups should consider this too. E.g. Bruno: Could set up on Onix easily and sweep. Lance: Gyarados should be setup bait too, although Ice moves from his Dragons aren't nice.
    Vulpix
    • Should be mroe specific about Vulpix's power. One of the main reasons why we decided Low for Vulpix was because it has to stay unevolved for too long to get Flamethrower so I think this should be explained more that just "Not very powerful at all".
    • The match-ups mostly address Ninetales who has skipped Flamethrower and is using Dig and other TMs. I think Flamethrower Ninetales should be addressed as well, and also unevolved Vulpix for battles where that applies (probably only for the Erika fight).
    • I also think it avoids saying if Ninetales wins or loses in some instances, e.g. it says Dig hits RB Koga's entire team for super-effective damage but doesn't go into whether this would be enough to allow a sweep (I doubt it is). Similar with Sabrina.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So that's that. All Pokemon have been discussed now.

    I already have a bit of an idea about what I'm going to do next, but I don't have time to go into it now. I'll try make time tomorrow.
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Sorry, I wrote Ninetails, and have been meaning to address it but have been busy:

    1.) Ninetails can beat Koga due to Koga's shitty moveset, the only thing it really struggles with is Poison status.
    2.) Body Slam/Dig means Ninetails can contribute against Sabrina but it couldn't sweep.
    3.) Agatha can be swept with Dig but watch out for status.
    4.) For power, its STAB is pretty good (100 Base Special), but you're either stuck with Ember or a unevoloved Pokemon waiting to get Flamethrower. Body Slam/Dig aren't as good as Arcanine/Charizard's due to his 76 Base Attack.
  14. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    @Hemp Man: Thanks for clarifying. I noted that stuff in the OP.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So after going over all the Pokemon together, the list currently looks like this:

    -Top-
    Abra
    Articuno
    Clefairy
    Diglett
    Nidoran F
    Nidoran M
    Squirtle (RB)
    Zapdos

    -High-
    Bulbasaur (RB)
    Charmander
    Doduo
    Farfetch'd (RB)
    Gastly
    Jolteon
    Jynx
    Krabby (BY)
    Mr. Mime
    Omanyte
    Sandshrew
    Seel
    Shellder
    Snorlax
    Squirtle (Y)
    Staryu
    Tentacool
    Vaporeon

    -Mid-
    Bellsprout
    Bulbasaur (Y)
    Drowzee
    Electabuzz
    Exeggcute
    Flareon
    Geodude
    Goldeen
    Growlithe (R)
    Hitmonlee
    Horsea
    Jigglypuff
    Kabuto
    Krabby (R)
    Magikarp
    Magnemite
    Mankey
    Meowth
    Oddish
    Pikachu (RB)
    Pikachu (Y)
    Poliwag
    Psyduck (RB)
    Rattata
    Slowpoke
    Spearow
    Voltorb

    -Low-
    Aerodactyl
    Caterpie
    Chansey
    Cubone
    Ditto
    Dratini
    Ekans
    Farfetch'd (Y)
    Grimer
    Growlithe (Y)
    Hitmonchan
    Kangaskhan
    Koffing
    Lapras
    Lickitung (RB)
    Machop
    Magmar
    Moltres
    Onix
    Paras
    Pidgey
    Pinsir
    Ponyta
    Porygon
    Psyduck (Y)
    Rhyhorn
    Scyther
    Tangela
    Tauros
    Venonat
    Vulpix
    Weedle
    Zubat

    -Unavailable-
    Lickitung (Y)
    Mewtwo
    Mew

    I'd like to think that this list will be the final list that we'll stick by. At the moment, this will probably be what is used in the article. However, I can't really stop anyone who disagrees with anything from bringing stuff up again if they wish.

    So next, I (and others if they want to help, although it'll probably be just me) will need to fix up the analyses to incorporate the suggestions that I listed in the OP.

    I haven't reserved the actual article yet, but assuming I write it, it will likely follow the same format as the other ones currently on site (DP, Platinum, FRLG, RSE, Colosseum, and XD). I'll include an intro that explains what the purpose of the list is, what criteria we judge Pokemon on, and what assumptions we made about the type of run players will be making (no soloing, etc.). I'll probably include more information about banning glitches too. I think banning glitches is a standard rule across most of the tier lists but it's particularly important for the 1st gen games so it might need special coverage. After the intro, I'll have the actual list.

    As I've hinted at before, I'm almost certainly not going to include the analyses we have in this thread. That may seem like I'm wasting these analyses but I don't really have much choice. Even if I were to incorporate all the suggestions in the OP and then fix up the grammar and prose, it would still be fairly obvious that lots of different authors wrote the analyses since we all have different writing styles. I would likely have to rewrite some of them anyway to make them more uniform. I also don't think have such long analyses is appropriate for the article, because the article is supposed to be a quick reference point for people looking to do a quick run through RBY and a lot of the readers probably don't want to read through long walls of text just to put a team together.

    So the format of the entries will probably be similar to what's on the lists on-site:

    I might write a bit more than what's here since some Pokemon probably need more explanation about their tier placements than others, but you get the idea.

    I'll include a link to this thread in the article somewhere. This allows the longer analyses to be documented, and interested readers can check them out if they so desire. I might also include a special thanks section for those who contributed analyses, but I don't know yet.

    But for now, I'll focus on incorporating the changes that were brought up over the past 1.5 months. Again, if anyone has any more comments about tiering/analyses then feel free to voice your opinion.

    Bye!
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Just updating to say that, over the last week or so, I've incorporated all of the suggestions made over the past 2 months to the best of my ability. I tried to leave the original analyses as close to the way they were as possible, but I did have to rewrite sections of some of them because the stuff I was adding contradicted what was already there and it didn't make sense! I hope the authors of those don't mind.

    The only thing I haven't done yet is add the rival battles to the analyses, since I don't feel up to writing theorymon match-ups for a trainer that you battle multiple times (and who effectively has 6 different teams) right at this moment. I'll get to it eventually though.
  16. xtreme713ify

    xtreme713ify

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    My team:

    Charizard
    Tangela
    Sandslash
    Lapras/Vaporeon
    Electrode
    Alakazam

    I really don't need my opinion changed, just want tell my team. Don't ask to change anything, because it won't happen.
  17. Layell

    Layell Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Peter Gabriel too!
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    I'm sorry I have no idea what you expected to gain from posting that and placing up your criticism barrier. But please if you want to add some write up for them if you find their entries lacking we'd all appreciate that.
  18. xtreme713ify

    xtreme713ify

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    Sorry, I just don't like my opinion altered, but now that you think about it...I don't see any point in typing that... Ok, if anything needs to change, just tell me. My mistake for typing a pretty much pointless message.
  19. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    B-but xtreme713ify, I think you should drop Electrode and use Magneton instead.
  20. xtreme713ify

    xtreme713ify

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    Reasons, please? I'm using Electrode not because it's strong, but it's awfully fast. Give it Thunder and watch it destroy anything that isn't a Ground-type. And even in the worst case scenario I could just switch into Vaporeon. If you have any reasons, please notify them. Otherwise you won't change my mind.
  21. Lork

    Lork

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    what on uuuurrrtthhh was the point of this
  22. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I got the article up. Still WIP, but feel free to comment on it in that thread if you wish.
  23. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    Unless we're talking about speed runs, I strongly disagree with relegating excellent pokemon like Lapras and Tauros in the bottom tier just because they're available late and/or require some grinding.
    However the article clarly states that the tiers are based on efficiency and not performance in speed runs.
    And catching pokemon in the Safari Zone is a complete joke, I have no idea why you'd use that as an argument against their in-game viability.

    Lapras can sweep the entire Cinnibar gym by itself once it hits level 30 or so and after it has done that it will be in the late 30's or early 40's, more than enough to sweep the upcoming Viridian gym. It can afford being underleveled thanks to its type advantage, powerful STAB moves and high stats.
    Lapras is obtained at level 15 and can easily grind to 30 in few minutes against things weak to ice/water like Geodude and Diglett. It doesn't even need to use TMs to be good since its level-up movepool is so great.

    Tauros is in the same boat except it trades Lapras' high special stat and STAB Surf for better speed and STAB normal attacks.

    Seriously, stats, movepool and lack of reliance on TMs should weight more than everything else.
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    ...like, what do you expect to put Lapras in? Why would I want to bother grinding Lapras when LV 30+ water-types are available at Seafoam? Sure, Lapras is good and can be grinded, but in terms of efficiency it falls short compared to say just directly catching a high leveled Slowbro or reviving Kabuto. The tier list adequately shows this imo. Most of the Seafoam waters/Kabuto/Omanyte can just walk into Blaine's gym immediately and get themselves up to par: this is something the ridiculously underlevelled Lapras cannot do without grinding for an hour or two in the diglett's cave (no, turbo is not a valid argument). think of it this way: you have A and B to perform a job. A can do the job immediately without prior effort, B needs some initial investment in order to perform the job at the same efficiency as A. obviously A is better than B.

    Safari Zone really applies to only a few Pokemon because the rest can be obtained through other means*. These unlucky few are Kangaskhan, Tauros and Chansey. Also, you are severely underestimating the Safari Zone. Without the modifiers from the rock and the bait, you have roughly a 9% chance of catching Kangaskhan/Tauros (Chansey has an even shittier catch rate and a ridiculous reliance on TMs anyway). Not something I'd want imo. Sure, in Yellow you have a modest chance of encountering them (15% for Kanga, 10% for Tauros), but it's still not something I'd bank on. Unless the rock exponentially increases the CR or something, I still don't see how Kangaskhan or Tauros would be good. They're pretty much in the same boat as say the legendary beasts from GSC: if you can get them, good, they're nice additions to your team, but the sad fact is that the reliability of getting them is so bad that they're pretty much deprived of the spots in the higher tiers.

    * - This list would also include Dragonair if I'm really bitchy, but Dragonair isn't even that good anyway.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I forgot if I said this, but during some testing I found that the traded Dewgong does poorly in Blaine's gym due to the Fire Spin spam going around. Can we make it a point that the fastest Pokemon are the ones who face the least trouble there?

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