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Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by atsync, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Honestly Fire Blast isn't too bad on Aerodactyl. He doesn't even that big if a movepool anyway, so it can be there for filler. 30% chance to burn can help in stalemate matches, such as Blue's Sandslash.

    Speaking of the 30% burn rate, that should be mentioned in his battle for Blaine.

    Speaking of Blue, that match is missing from Aerodactyl's page. It's decent against Venusuar, Exeggutor, Pidgeot, & Sandslash. Rhydon is bit of a stalemate, and Arcanine is beatable (Remember he uses Ember unlike Blaine's who has Fire Blast).
  2. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I can see Exeggcute in Mid, to be honest. It only needs one resource (Psychic), which isn't even as hotly contested as Thunderbolt and Dig, and from there it has numerous places to train and go to town. Bicycle Road, Silph Co., Fighting gym, etc. It's got numerous advantages that Jynx has as well. (it's not as good as Jynx obviously, but most factors that make Jynx good help Exeggcute as well)

    Like, after reading the analysis, Exeggcute felt like a pretty worthy Pokemon to use. The only thing the analysis does to dissuade me is mention its low speed. The EXP curve I'm not really bothered about because unless I'm horribly overestimating Exeggutor it should just OHKO about everything you put it up against until it's caught up, and the availability is just what puts it in Mid tier rather than, say, High.

    All these other dudes are bad, yeah. Might wanna remove all mentions of Bottom and replace with Low. Well, maybe we can talk about Cubone, it does come right before Pokemon Tower after all with a whole bunch of STAB Ground moves in its level-up pool.
  3. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I argued Exggcute should be mid in the previous thread, and the basic response I got it was basically got Slowbro-syndrome (Speed issues) but with a lesser second type (Surf > Mega Drain).
  4. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Yeah basically what happened with Exeggcute in the last thread was that Hemp Man argued that if Slowpoke is being boosted up to Mid (I put it in Low at the time but we changed it) then Exeggcute should at least be considered for a rise too.

    These were the responses from other users:

    I chose to stay out of it because I didn't know anything about Exeggcute. I did say Low in my first post after opening this round, although I have to admit that I'm not sure if I could justify that position adequately. And some of the arguments from the last thread for Exeggcute in Low are frankly terrible.

    More opinions on Exeggcute would be nice. Mekkah makes good points.
  5. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    So, you catch a level 27 Exeggcute in Safari and immediately evolve it into Exeggcutor and give it Psychic. You have something on your hands with relatively decent power-- but Exeggcute is so underleveled and it is on the slowest maturity path (it grows up so slowly...).

    Granted, this is the same argument against Gyarados, who is clearly mid. Exeggucutor has great stats. Exeggcutor can be used to take on Koga and Erika, grabbing experience there. Psychic is also good against cueballs/bikers/rockets/fighting gym. I dunno-- I guess theoretically Exeggcutor could perform alright; its low level and slow growth rate seems unattractive to say the least (especially when coupled with such poor Speed...), but I think someone needs to test it.

    My only gripes with it based on acquisition timing are:
    -Really, a Grass-type you can't get until AFTER Misty?
    -The only major water-user after this is Lorelei, who's Ice attacks have a clear advantage against the weak Mega Drain.
    -Late game water type is a thing-- late game grass-type isn't; for appropriate reasons.

    For someone looking for an easily acquired, reasonably powerful Psychic-type, this might be a decent pick though-- Exegg has good stats, is easy to capture, and immediately evolves to its final (very powerful) form with ease. (all things psychic-types up until this point can't exactly brag-- abra is annoying as hell to catch and raise, Mr. Mime needs you to get abra, Slowpoke is a bitch to evolve or find evolved, and Hypno's stats are crap)

    Psychic's power and Exeggcutor's stats alone might make it worth a spot in mid.

    test someone?
  6. KingNeedlesThe1st

    KingNeedlesThe1st

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    Is low speed for Exeggcute really that big of a deal with 95/85/125 Defenses? That's pretty damn solid for a Low tier Pokemon--especially one as easy to catch as Exeggcute. The only place I see it being a problem is with Agatha, but then again, Gengar outspeeds most of your potential Pokemon to begin with, aside from Alakazam and Dugtrio. And yes, Grass STAB is worthless in RBY, but who needs it when you're blowing things apart with STAB Psychic? Psychic gives Exeggutor a leg up over other Grass types like Venusaur and Vileplume, who tend to lose a lot of relevance late game.
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Grass is a decent STAB in RBY, but problem is Exeggutor is stuck with Mega Drain (40 base power) instead of Razor Leaf (55 base power + high critical hit ratio). Also, he misses out when Grass is at its peak (Brock - Surge).

    Either way he's probably better off with Psychic, although Mega Drain can help recover health back against Rock/Ground types.
  8. KingNeedlesThe1st

    KingNeedlesThe1st

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    Sorry, I meant to say that Grass STAB is worthless during the mid and late game. Still, Mega Drain can finish off the very few foes that don't fall to a single Psychic.

    Anyway, I'm currently playing through Red with a team of Blastoise, Raticate, Nidoking, Jolteon, and Exeggutor, with a Doduo as my Fly Slave. Exeggutor demolishes Erika and Koga, though the former has a Victreebel that will most likely outspeed and perform Poisonpowder-Wrap shenanigans on you, while the latter has high level Poison-types with STAB Sludge that hurts Exeggutor a great deal, making it a lesser option compared to other Psychic-types. I'll edit this post as I get farther into the game.

    EDIT: Ok, just finished the game, and while Exeggutor is ludicrously strong, it's low speed does pose a bit of a problem once in awhile, especially against both Sabrina's and Rival's Alakazam, who both outspeed and spam Recover and cast Reflect for the latter. It's not helped by Egg Bomb's low accuracy. I managed to win by using Hypnosis and knocking them out with Raticate's Hyper Fang. Other than that, Exeggutor is well deserving of Mid status.
  9. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I'm ending this round.

    I've decided to move Exeggcute up to Mid... for now. I find the arguments for Mid more convincing. @KingNeedlesThe1st: keep testing it if you like, I'm curious to see how Exeggutor will turn out.

    Everything else is staying in Low. That includes Cubone. I know Mekkah has doubts and thinks it could be Mid, but I'm not so sure and no-one else seems to agree (or they don't know/care). Might be worth someone else testing Marowak if they feel like it, just to see what its power is like. Its low Speed and Special seem like they would cause a few problems but I don't know.


    Changes (open)
    General
    • Change all instances of "Bottom" to "Low" (I'll do this myself later)
    Aerodactyl
    • Mention Fly in the movepool section.
    • Mention how it can grind well in Pokemon Mansion thanks to its resistances.
    • Aside from the damage it takes, Fire Blast's 30% Burn rate is a concern too, although Arcanine is the only thing that will threaten you with it.
    • Needs to mention the Blue match-up.
    Cubone
    • Mention its nice Special movepool (Ice Beam/Blizzard, BubbleBeam/Water Gun and Fire Blast). Even though it has poor Special they do have uses.
    • Probably should mention its Poison resistance in the type section.
    • Koga: Bone Club, not Bone Rush.
    • Blaine: STAB Fire moves from Arcanine and Yellow Ninetales will sting.
    • Giovanni: Earthquake is also effective against his rock types
    Ditto
    • Cut the last sentence of Power. I'm not sure what point that makes.
    • The match-ups section should be revamped.
    Exeggcute
    • Changed tier, but doesn't really need a revamp. The analysis is actually positive enough for a Mid Pokemon! Additional Comments should be redone though.
    • Needs to mention grinding opportunities. Think Cycling Road, Fighting Dojo and Silph Co.
    • Remove Saffron Rockets from match-ups.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).


    The next Pokemon up will be:
    • Grimer
    Grimer (open)
    Grimer-Low
    Availability: He's found in Pokemon Mansion, though he's easier to find in Blue and Yellow. It should be noted that you can also catch fully evolved Muk there, too.
    Stats: 105 HP and 105 Attack is very nice, but base 65 Special is terrible. 65 Speed is usually enough to outspeed most things in-game, so it's not entirely terrible in that respect.
    Movepool: If he doesn't have Sludge yet, he'll have it in a couple levels. Aside from that, he gets Thunder, which no one really wants anyway, and does decent damage off his Base 65 SpAtk stat, I guess. He also gets Acid Armor, which makes him a better defensive Pokemon than Weezing against stuff like Fighting types and can even contend with Ground types barring crits. He gets Body Slam as well, and can make good use of it, but you've probably already given that TM to someone else...
    Power: Grimer's terrible, but Muk's alright thanks to that good Attack stat. Poor speed blows, and a movepool filled with special attacks isn't helping it. It literally has like three physical attacks to choose from; Sludge, Body Slam, and Hyper Beam. If it had a better Special stat, it'd probably be able to use some of those TMs more efficiently...on the plus side, Mega Drain hits Rock/Ground types hard
    Typing: You've passed the point where there were a bunch of Grass, Bug and Fighting types, so Poison's kind of a meh typing. It also kinda sucks that Psychic types are in God tier,
    Matchups:
    Blaine- Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash can be taken out by Muk because they lack any decent Fire moves (other than Fire Spin, I guess...) Arcanine packs Fire Blast, so don't even try against him. In Yellow, the only thing you can take out is Rapidash.
    Giovanni- Nidoqueen and Nidoking pack terrible moves in Red and Blue (they don't have a single Ground type move), so you're safe against them. You also beat Rhyhorn and Rhydon with Mega Drain because of their atrocious Special Stat and your high defenses. Be careful though, Rhydon has Fissure. In Yellow, the only thing you can kill is Persian.
    Lorelei- Can't really hurt her Pokemon at all thanks to Muk's low Special and her Pokemon's high defensive stats.
    Bruno- Muk beats all three Fighting types and can take out his Onix duo with Mega Drain.
    Agatha- Everyone on her team resists Sludge and are immune to Normal type moves. They also pack high Special stats, so I'm not seeing a Muk victory here. Not to mention one of the Gengars packs Psychic.
    Lance- Muk can beat the Dragonairs and Dragonite because the AI is an idiot and always spams Agility when it's out. Gyarados and Aerodacytl hit too hard, though.
    Rival- His Exeggutor is garbage and only has three moves (none of which are any good), so Muk beats that one. Pidgeot's also garbage and Arcanine has a garbage movepool, though Ember still hurts a bit. Again, Rhydon dies to any Special Attack, so Muk's Mega Drain kills it. In Yellow the only thing you can kill is Exeggutor.

    Additional Comments: Muk's not bad, he's just disadvantaged. He only has one good moveset; Sludge, Mega Drain, Body Slam, Toxic. He's also disadvantaged in having a low Special in a game where Special is everything. Add to the fact that he has the worst type in the game...yeah, not seeing the appeal here. He's a decent check to Lance, and does better against Giovanni than one would expect. His biggest flaw is that low Special Stat, meaning that Mega Drain really is a move he wants so he can at least butcher the random Onix or Rhydon.

    • Growlithe (Yellow)
    Growlithe (open)
    -Growlithe (Yellow) - Low Tier
    -Availability: Growlithe can only be found on the first floor of the Pokémon Mansion on Cinnabar Island. It can be found as high as level 38, but this is very rare even with the repel trick, so you may have to settle for something more underleveled.
    -Stats: Excellent overall. There is little reason not to evolve it straight away, at which point it gets 110 Attack, 80 Special and 95 Speed. With 90/80/80 bulk, Arcanine can take hits well too.
    -Movepool: Arcanine requires TM support to work. This was tolerable in Red given how early it arrives, but in Yellow it is much hard to justify saving TMs for it. Dig, for example, it a near requirement on Arcanine, and keeping it for Arcanine can hurt the many things that benefit from it earlier on. Without Dig or Body Slam, Arcanine is stuck with Take Down/Double-Edge and Fire Blast for coverage, and both of those have drawbacks that make relying on them difficult.
    -Power: With the right moves, Arcanine is a powerful attacker. Even with just Take Down it can hit somewhat hard. However, if you aren’t using Dig or Body Slam, then you are using moves with recoil and accuracy issues, and all of this can take its toll on Arcanine as it builds up damage, causing you to heal it frequently.
    -Type: Fire really isn’t that useful considering how late you get Arcanine. The weaknesses to Water, Ground and Rock are not appreciated, and Fire’s coverage is somewhat poor late-game.
    -Match-ups: Sabrina – You can do ok here as you have decent bulk and speed, and you hit her Pokémon hard with physical moves. Take Down recoil (or a miss) may lesve you open to a kill from Alakazam though).
    Blaine – If you have Dig then you pretty much win be default, but it’s a mirror match without it.
    Giovanni – Ground and Rock weaknesses aren’t fun are they? Persian doesn’t have either though so you can beat that. Dig is useful for Nidoqueen, Nidoking and Rhydon if you have it.
    Lorelei – You have a weakness to Water so you are a bit limited. Jynx is beatable.
    Bruno – You can’t touch Onix without Dig. The Hitmons are fried by Fire Blast, and Machamp doesn’t have a specific answer to you either.
    Agatha – Use Dig if you have it. If you don’t, her Ghosts are going to be tough with Normal immunities and high Specials. Just focus on Golbat and Arbok instead.
    Lance – Gyarados has Hydro Pump, Aerodactyl walls you and you aren’t exactly OHKOing the Dragons (one even has BubbleBeam).
    Blue – If you have Dig then you can do pretty well, but without it just focus on Alakazam, Ninetales, Flareon and Exeggutor.

    -Additional Comments: The transition from Red to Yellow involved a simple availability change for Arcanine, but it proves to have a significant impact on its usefulness. Arcanine’s performance was at its best during the middle of the game, but being locked away on Cinnabar Island causing it to miss out on most of this. Being such a late Pokémon with reliance on such an exclusive TM seals its fate.

    • Hitmonchan
    Hitmonchan (open)
    -Hitmonchan - Low Tier
    -Availability: You can get this as soon as you get to Celadon by heading to Saffron straight away and fighting through the Dojo. This involves taking on some high-levelled Fighting Pokemon (relative to your current team) but it is actually pretty easy if you have the right Pokemon on your team. The great thing is that Hitmonchan comes at level 30, so you can pretty much slap it on to your team without grinding.
    -Stats: 105 Attack is pretty good and it has a decent enough speed for in-game purposes (76). Its Special is horrible though (35), which is a shame given its movepool. Compared to Hitmonlee, it has less power and is slower. In exchange, it can take physical hits better, although it is still frail.
    -Movepool: Hitmonchan is a case of a Pokémon who has a movepool that doesn’t match its stats. It is the only Pokémon with all 3 elemental punches, but 35 Special makes these completely useless. It has no STAB moves by level up and this leaves it completely TM dependent. It does get its STAB move, Submission, from Celadon and while it has good power it is a horrible move thanks to terrible accuracy and recoil. It gets Body Slam, Mega Punch and Double-Edge to pick from as its normal moves, all of which are powerful enough for that point in the game. Body Slam is the best choice for reliability but it may not be available. It gets Strength later though which is a reasonable substitute.
    -Power: Hitmonchan starts off well, but it doesn't take long for it to start lagging. Submission may seem powerful but it is commonly resisted, misses frequently, and has recoil that chips into Hitmonchan's already low HP. Its only other moves are Normal, and Hitmonchan just doesn't have enough power to rely on these, especially given how frail it is.
    -Type: Submission is its only real STAB and be obtained by TM as soon as you get Hitmonchan, and although it has great power it is inaccurate and deals recoil (which is bad for Hitmonchan’s poor HP stat). Fighting is a bad defensive type overall. Flying and Psychic attacks are common in this game are fairly common, which hurts Hitmonchan as a viable choice.
    -Match-ups: Erika – Neutral overall, but it isn’t particularly useful. Her Pokémon can take hits and can strike back with a status move, or just hit hard with a special attack.
    Koga – In RB, his Pokémon are bulky, resist Fighting and can poison you. In Yellow he gets screwed over by Psychic, though he might take down a Venonat.
    Sabrina – This is a terrible match-up because Hitmonchan dies in a heartbeat to Psychic.
    Blaine – Hitmonchan is crippled by its poor Special. Flamethrower and Fire Blast do tons of damage to it, making it a mediocre choice at best for this battle.
    Giovanni – Dugtrio and Persian can be beaten due to frailty. Nidoqueen and Nidoking are tougher, particularly in Yellow where they have Thunder. Rhyhorn and Rhydon are weak to Submission. This is one of Hitmonchan's better match-ups, even though a complete sweep probably isn't on the cards.
    Lorelei – Submission is super-effective against Ice, but it still doesn’t do that well. Submission is so risky and those Ice and Water attacks will hurt, as does Psychic.
    Bruno – Mirror Match, except for his Onix who you can beat with Submission.
    Agatha – Holy crap you are awful here. Gengar and Haunter are IMMUNE TO ALL OF YOUR PHYSICAL MOVES! None of the elemental punches are going to help you win and unless you are using Seismic Toss you can't actually do anything to them. Arbok and Golbat resist fighting but might be beaten with whatever normal move you have. You will probably get statused though.
    Lance – In RB you might beat Aerodactyl, Dragonair or Dragonite because their movesets suck, but Gyarados has Hydro Pump. In Yellow things are tougher because everything except Aerodactyl has special attacks, and Aerodactyl has Fly anyway.
    Blue – You stand a chance against Rhydon, Exeggutor and Sandslash, but everything else is a risky match-up due to special/super-effective moves within their movesets.

    -Additional Comments: Hitmonchan is worth a brief look in the short-term because it arrives at a good level and can hold its own for a little while, but it became quite poor in the long run. Its horrible movepool, lack of reliable STAB, terrible match-ups during key battles and that awful Special really work against Hitmonchan.

    • Jigglypuff
    Jigglypuff (open)
    Jigglypuff - Low Tier
    -Availability: You can catch it at Route 3 in Red and Blue, at levels 3, 5, and 7. In Yellow, you have to wait until you get to Route 5. It evolves by using a Moon Stone, which can be obtained shortly after catching Jigglypuff.
    -Stats: The only stat that can be considered "good" is HP, which is actually a curse in disguise, as if it has low health, it'll take more items to heal it than others. It's also one of those Pokemon that are actually outsped by some of the non-boss trainers' Pokemon.
    -Movepool: Considering its only move before reaching level 9 is Sing, it needs Water Gun and/or Mega Punch to actually fight. Also, aside from Rest and Body Slam at levels 29 and 34, respectively, its level-up movepool is absolutely barren, thus requiring the use of even more TMs for it to try to keep up.
    -Power: If you evolved it ASAP (which you should have) and taught it Mega Punch, it's actually pretty decent. Then you reach Rock Tunnel, and it can't do much in there unless you taught it Water Gun/BubbleBeam/Seismic Toss, and it has trouble in Pokemon Tower no matter what you taught it. The Poison-types of Cycling Road and Silph are also a pain unless you taught it Psychic. To make a long story short, Wigglytuff needs TMs to be usable for at least half of the game.
    -Type: Normal has no type advantages against anything else, not even Ghost because the only Ghost-type move that won't affect Normal-types is the pathetic Lick. The fact that Normal-types don't hit anything super-effectively balances out how uncommon Fighting-types are in-game.
    -Match-ups:
    --Misty: An interesting trick against Misty that actually works: Before fighting her, make sure Wigglytuff knows Mega Punch and Bide. Then, when fighting her, defeat Staryu normally, with Mega Punch. After that, use Bide. Wigglytuff's bulk should allow it to take 4 BubbleBeams (barring crits, of course), and if it loses at least 30 HP, its Bide will be strong enough to OHKO Starmie.
    --Lt. Surge: Wigglytuff can take a Thunderbolt from Raichu, but not much else on top of it.
    --Erika: You'll get Wrapped up when fighting Victreebel. It can beat her other Pokemon, but only if you taught it Ice Beam or Psychic.
    --Koga: In Red and Blue, his Pokemon are physically defensive juggernauts, all of which take minor damage from Strength, and in Yellow, they all know some sort of status move. Keep in mind that his Pokemon are most likely faster than Wigglytuff.
    --Sabrina: Wigglytuff can defeat her Kadabra if it knows Body Slam and manages to paralyze it. For the others, it has to hope they use Psywave instead of Psybeam/Psychic.
    --Blaine: Fire Blast is going to do a lot, regardless of who's using it. Don't forget that Ninetales (Yellow only) and Rapidash know Fire Spin. Also, Arcanine can actually survive 2 uses of Strength.
    --Giovanni: Wigglytuff needs Ice Beam or Blizzard for this fight, or else it's going to be walled. The sad thing is, his Nidos, Dugtrio, and Persian are all faster than Wiggs, and of those, Dugtrio's the only one that can't withstand a Blizzard.
    --Lorelei: Thunderbolt is required here, as 3 of her Pokemon have great physical bulk, and Dewgong (obviously not one of the above 3) has Rest. Of course, Thunderbolt has trouble 2HKOing the majority of her team, all of which (minus Slowbro) are faster than it, meaning it'll most likely take at least 3 hits from each mon.
    --Bruno: I don't think any explanation as to how Bruno defeats Wigglytuff is necessary.
    --Agatha: If Wigglytuff has a hard time in Pokemon Tower, how well do you honestly think it'll do against Agatha?
    --Lance: It's a sad day when a Thunderbolt fails to even 2HKO a Gyarados. Same goes for Blizzard and everything else on his team, except for Aerodactyl and Dragonite. Thankfully, Wigglytuff has just enough bulk to survive a Hyper Beam from anything not named Gyarados or Dragonite.
    --Rival: It needs TMs to do well against any of his Pokemon, with the exceptions of Exeggutor, which is the worst Pokemon on his team, and his Alakazam and starter, which can't be beaten regardless of what you taught Wigglytuff. Ninetales also poses a serious threat, thanks to Fire Spin.

    -Additional Comments: Jigglypuff is a high-maintenance Pokemon: it requires large amounts of support from the moment you catch it in the form of Mega Punch and a Moon Stone, and soon afterward it'll ask for more so it doesn't fall behind due to its subpar stats. This means that if you want to use Jigglypuff, you must be willing to give it a disproportionate amount of support in order for it to be on par with its teammates.

    • Kangaskhan
    Kangaskhan (open)
    -Kangaskhan - Low Tier
    -Availability: It can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This is a problem because it means you are left in the hands of the Safari Zone capture mechanics. It doesn’t help that Kangaskhan is a rare Pokémon with a low capture rate. Unless you can very lucky, you will be looking for it for a long time. It also comes at a level that will probably be lower than your team’s average, but it is powerful and can grind up quite easily. Kangaskhan is much more available in Yellow (higher encounter rate and level) but there are still issues regarding the Safari Zone mechanics.
    -Stats: Kangaskhan is built as a physical sweeper with its 95 Attack and 90 Speed. Although they aren’t jaw-droppingly awesome, they are good enough for in-game purposes. With 105 HP and 80 Defence it can take physical hits comfortably. However, 40 Special is poor and powerful special attacks will do a lot of damage to Kangaskhan.
    -Movepool: Kangaskhan only learns Normal moves by level-up, although they have plenty of neutral coverage so you could almost get away with just running a mono-Normal moveset. However, Kangaskhan has an extensive TM/HM movepool. It has Earthquake and Rock Slide which will complement the Normal coverage well. Kangaskhan also has a large special movepool, capable of getting Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt. However, Kangaskhan’s low Special limits the use of these and there are better choices for these moves (you have nothing to lose by teaching Surf though, since it's a HM).
    -Power: Kangaskhan is a strong attacker thanks to its decent attack and great physical movepool. It can comfortably run through the weaker trainers in the game easily. It often can’t OHKO stronger opponents with its STAB but it should have no problem 2HKOing things at the very least.
    -Type: Normal has no super-effective coverage unfortunately, but it does hit neutral on everything except Rock types and the 3 Ghosts, both of which are covered by Earthquake (Rock Slide for Aerodactyl). Normal has one weakness and one immunity, though both are mostly irrelevant for in-game playthroughs.
    -Match-ups: Koga – In RB you may struggle a bit unless you have Earthquake already because they have good bulk. However, they can’t do much back to you either. In Yellow, you have Rock Slide for his bugs, but they are hitting you on your weak Special and Venomoth may be a difficult opponent.
    Sabrina – This is an interesting match-up because you both do heavy damage to each other. They hit you on your Low Special and you hit back at their low Defence. Her Pokemon have the advantage in speed though so don't expect to sweep.
    Blaine – If you have either Rock Slide or Earthquake and can attempt a sweep. However, Arcanine’s Fire Blast hits you very hard and can burn you.
    Giovanni – Earthquake is a good choice here since it covers the stronger Pokémon on his team, and Dugtrio and Persian should be beaten with brute force. Even Surf is a viable option! Thunder is really the only thing that you care about here.
    Lorelei – You have Rock Slide but they are hitting you on your low Special so be careful.
    Bruno – Hitmonlee and Machamp are brutal with their Fighting moves, but the others should be easily beaten.
    Agatha – Earthquake and Rock Slide cover everything and you have the power to beat her quickly. As usual you can lose if you are unlucky, but that’s assumed.
    Lance – Rock Slide covers his stronger Pokémon and Dragonair are easy to beat. Gyarados will hit you for large damage with Hydro Pump. This is harder in Yellow since he has more special attacks.
    Blue – It depends on what you taught him. Earthquake gets Jolteon, Magneton and the Fire types. Rock Slide hits Charizard, Pidgeot and Gyarados. You can contribute here, but as usual look out for special moves.

    -Additional Comments: Kangaskhan is Low simply because it is one of the most unavailable Pokémon in the game. It is a decent Pokémon in its own right, but unless you get very lucky in obtaining it you’ll be looking for it for a while. Any time you gain from using Kangaskhan will probably be insufficient for the purposes of making up for lost time looking for it. If you do get lucky and catch it quickly then it can be awesome, but actually PLANNING to have it as part of your team and specifically looking for it is not recommended.

    • Koffing
    Koffing (open)
    Koffing - Low Tier
    Availability: Koffing is not available in Pokemon Yellow. In Red/Blue, the moment you can use Surf outside of battle, you have access to Koffing. You can find it in the Pokemon Mansion at L30-L32 at fairly common rates, or if you're really patient you can find Weezing at L37 or L39 (1% or 4% encounter rates though). Probably best to stick with Koffing and level it up to L35.
    Stats: This line's stats are about the opposite of what you would hope for in-game. Weezing is slow, and its Attack and Special are average at best. The one thing it has going for it is Defense.
    Movepool: Koffing can consider himself lucky to actually get a half decent STAB move in Sludge (but that still clocks in at a modest 65 base power). However, the next best moves that it learns naturally happen to be suicide moves. Thunderbolt is the only TM it can take early on, and it's quite a coveted one. Thunder and Fire Blast are out there as well, but you get them much, much later.
    Power: Koffing has no problems beating a Bird Keeper with Thunderbolt, or a random Paras with Sludge. The problem is when it doesn't have an overwhelming type advantage, or when you don't have the TMs to spare for it. In those cases, you'll find that it will take a quite a while before he wins, and he's at the mercy of annoying status moves or even super effective moves in the meantime.
    Type: Poison is a horrible type offensively and defensively, offering no real meaningful advantages other than Erika's gym (but there's only a total of two Pokemon Sludge can hit for double damage there). Thunderbolt is actually effective against a lot of things, though.
    Match-ups:
    Erika - If you go through the effort of getting yourself a Weezing before you fight Erika, this is his one chance to shine (sort of). He can outlast all the Pokemon in the gym (Exeggcute doesn't even have any Psychic moves), but because most of them are part Poison you are not going to do a whole lot against them unless you somehow got Fire Blast.
    Sabrina - If it can use a Psychic move, Koffing pretty much loses. If it can't, then you should be okay, though you will need Thunderbolt to really do anything to Gastly/Haunter. You can Thunderbolt a couple of Slowpokes/Slowbros, perhaps.
    Blaine - An even match-up at best. Koffing can beat joke Pokemon that don't use any "real" moves against him, but he's not going to outlast anything that uses Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
    Giovanni - This gym actually only has two Ground moves to worry about: Rhydon's Fissure (which won't affect you if you're faster), and Dugtrio's Dig (which is telegraphed). But on the other hand, Sludge and Thunderbolt will do absolutely nothing, and Weezing's only other remotely viable options have 5 PP each (Hyper Beam and Fire Blast).

    So our beloved mascot has average availability, and poor everything else. Not recommended.

    • Krabby (Red)
    Krabby (Red) (open)
    -Krabby (Red) - Low Tier
    -Availability: Unlike in Blue or Yellow, Red Krabby can't be caught in Seafoam Islands, meaning the best opportunity to catch Krabby is by surving up a level 23 Kingler at Route 23 with the Super Rod. You will need to have beaten Erika to access Route 23's fishing spots.
    -Stats: As mentioned in its Blue/Yellow entry, Kingler has impeccable Attack and very adequate Defense, but its Special leaves a lot to be desired.
    -Movepool: Kingler will know Bubble, Leer, and Vicegrip when caught assuming you caught it as a level 23 Kingler. It'll then proceed to learn Guillotine 2 levels later. Unfortunately, Kingler won't be able to know Crabhammer until level 42, which means it'll be stuck without usable STAB for 19 levels. The only notable TM moves Kingler can learn are Ice Beam and Blizzard, but even those moves might not be worth it in the long run due to Kingler's disappointing base 50 Special. Still, Blizzard is a noteworthy option as it allows Kingler to take down some of Lance's Dragon-types. Another option for Kingler is Body Slam: it's the most powerful Normal-type attack Kingler can learn with no drawbacks, just keep its competition in mind.
    -Power: Since it'll join underleveled with Vicegrip as its best attack, it should come as no surprise that Kingler won't exactly be excelling. Body Slam definitely helps it here. Even though it doesn't give it any OHKOes against the opposition, it's still its best attack for a good while. Of course, once it reaches level 42, it'll know Crabhammer and then play exactly like it would in Blue or Yellow. However, this isn't until Seafoam Islands, meaning Kingler will be doing mediocre for at least 2 gyms, in other words a fourth of the game.
    -Type: Kingler really wishes it was Normal-type instead of Water-type, as a specially oriented typing combined with a pathetic Special means a wasted type, at least until Crabhammer comes along.
    -Match-ups:
    --Koga: Kingler won't be doing much this fight, as all of its good attacks at this point in the game are physical, and all of Koga's Pokemon have the bulk to withstand more than a few physical attacks.
    --Sabrina: Sabrina's Pokemon are all faster than Kingler and their attacks target its pitiful special.
    --Blaine: By this time, Kingler should know Crabhammer, making this fight a walk in the park.
    --Giovanni: See Blaine.
    --Lorelei: Aside from crushing Jynx with Strength, don't expect Kingler to do much in this fight.
    --Bruno: All of Bruno's Pokemon are either weak to Crabhammer or have Special stats that make Kingler's seem adequate.
    --Agatha: Her Ghosts can take whatever Kingler lobs at it, but can't do much back to it outside of status.
    --Lance: This is probably the only time in the game where Kingler would use Blizzard, as 4 of his Pokemon are weak to it, and one of them is weak to Crabhammer, meaning you don't have to waste Blizzard's PP on it. Keep in mind, however, that it'll usually take 2 Blizzards to down one of Lance's Dragons
    --Rival: To sum it up quickly, Kingler can comfortably beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine, and Charizard. It loses to everything else.

    -Additional Comments: The problem with Krabby in Red is that it misses out on what makes it good in Blue and Yellow: access to Crabhammer shortly after catching it, and the lack of need to catch it up with the rest of the party (though the latter applies solely to Blue). Without those characteristics, Krabby becomes an unimpressive Pokemon, and one that is not recommended for playthroughs. Also remember that you have to go noticeably out of your way to obtain Krabby at its best in Red.

    • Lapras
    Lapras (open)
    Lapras - Low Tier (possibly Bottom)
    Availability: Given to you by a Silph Employee, at level 15.
    Stats: All of Lapras's stats are okay, with the exceptions of massive HP and unappealing Speed.
    Movepool: Learns Body Slam and Ice Beam by level-up, and has TM access to Thunderbolt and Psychic. It's notably the one of the few non-starter gift Pokemon to learn both Surf and Strength.
    Power: Because you get it at Lv. 15, when the levels of your opponents' Pokemon are in the high 20's to low 30's, don't expect it to be winning any fights on its own.
    Type: Well, it's a Water-type with STAB on Ice Beam...
    Match-ups: Because you get it at the pitiful level 15, you'll definitely need to grind to acheive good results against the remaining Gym Leaders.
    Erika: Lapras won't have learned Ice Beam by then unless you used up TM13, and there's no reason to put off Erika until you get Lapras in the first place.
    Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weak Defense, and Lapras has the bulk to take a Selfdestruct.
    Sabrina: Her Pokemon are trampled on by Body Slam.
    Blaine: Lapras resists Fire despite being part Ice, and gets STAB on Surf.
    Giovanni: His Ground-types are washed away by Surf.
    Lorelei: Lapras can go toe-to-toe against her, but don't expect it to take out more than 2 of her Pokemon.
    Bruno: Lapras can take out his 2 Onix and Hitmonchan any day of the week, but it's weak to Hi Jump Kick and Submission.
    Agatha: Gengar's high Speed and Lapras's low Speed mean that Lapras will usually put to sleep before it can take out her first Gengar.
    Lance: Ice Beam hits his Pokemon for SE damage, and has just enough bulk to survive 2 Hyper Beams.

    Additional Comments: Lapras is held back by 2 things: its late joining time, and its poor level when you get it. If it came earlier, or at a more convenient level, it would be great, but alas it isn't. At least it's a good HM Slave.

    • Lickitung
    Lickitung (open)
    Lickitung - Low Tier

    Availability: Only one (trade a Slowbro for one at Route 18 fairly late game) in Red/Blue or Cerulean Cave in Yellow.
    Stats: MARC (that's his name, don't wear it out) has got pretty good HP, but is decidedly below average in every other field, especially speed. On the plus side, it does get an experience boost.
    Movepool: Terrible level-up learnset full of nothing but Normal attacks (the best of which being Stomp), but has an incredibly wide TM movepool. This walking saliva factory can learn 27 out of 50 TMs and 3 HMs, including such gems as Earthquake, Blizzard, Fire Blast, BubbleBeam, Thunder, and Seismic Toss. It's also the only Normal type besides Farfetch'd to learn Swords Dance, also by TM.
    Power: Despite potentially gargantuan type coverage depending on how many TMs you want to put into this thing, it's awful offensive stats mean that Swords Dance is pretty much necessary to sweep even semi-effectively.
    Type: Offensively and defensively speaking, Normal is anything but mundane in Gen I. However, The Pink One faces stiff competition from the likes of Snorlax (who actually ties it in speed) and Tauros, both of which can be obtained at about the same time, and both require far less setup to be useful.
    Match-ups: Lickitung's battle prowess is completely dependent on which TMs the player is willing to part with in order to make it do anything other than give the opponent a good tongue trashing. In particular:
    -- Koga and Agatha: Licky shakes things up with Earthquake, but might end up taking a status first.
    -- Sabrina: Swords Dance + any decent STAB attack will make short work of her whole psychic hotline, but your low Special means you can't take it as well as you can dish it out.
    -- Blaine: Licktung extinguishes his hot-blooded hench-'mon, but only if it's packing BubbleBeam.
    -- Bruno: Earthquake makes his rock types go all to pieces, but unless you're overleveled his Hitmon's could easily beat him to the punch.
    -- Lance: Blizzard leaves his whole squad out in the cold, but more than likely you're going to take a few licks yourself from his speedier Dragons.
    - Bottom Line: While Lickitung could fill just about any gap your team is missing, it is precisely this unspecialization that unfortunately dooms poor MARC to the low tiers. In nearly every case, there are faster, bulkier, more powerful, or simply better choices.


    Discuss. I already have some comments about these write-ups/tier placements, although I'll share them later.
  10. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I think Jigglypuff could go up to Mid. It beats Clefairy in availability a little (and is easier to catch), and doesn't even have to wait until it learns Sing to take the first Moon Stone. STAB Mega Punch/Strength/Body Slam is as good as Clefable's, but its other stats (except for that gigantic HP) are lower, so it's less likely to take Thunderbolt/Psychic/Ice Beam/Blizzard. Why not though. Clefairy is better, but there isn't a 3-tier difference between the two, 1 would make most sense.
  11. KingNeedlesThe1st

    KingNeedlesThe1st

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    I disagree. Its defenses are horrible, and its attacking stats are even worse. Base 50 Special and Base 70 Attack isn't hurting much. Its speed, combined with its typing givinig it no useful resistances, put the final nail in the coffin for it. It could be useful for catching Abra, but it'll need some grinding before it can do so, and you generally want to save as much Exp for your main team as possible.
  12. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I think that RB Jigglyypuff could be ok in Mid. Obviously there is absolutely no reason to use it over Clefairy, who has better power overall, is bulkier (despite Wigglytuff's huge HP) and faster, and the fact that Jigglypuff is caught earlier in RB is meaningless because there isn't really anything going on between the patch of grass where Jigglypuff is found and Mt. Moon. But I think that Jigglypuff could still perform Clefairy's role adequately if it is considered on its own merits. Mega Punch from Wigglytuff is just as strong as Clefable's, and if we're giving credit to things like Rattata for learning special attacks then Wigglytuff should be given credit too. Wigglytuff can take a few hits too. Shame about the dismal speed. In theory, its higher HP makes it one of the better users of Double-Edge, although I think the low Speed would still make that a risky option.

    Not so sure about Yellow Jigglypuff. It can't be caught until after you go to Bill's house. That doesn't seem much later, but they didn't even bother changing catch level, so at best you are catching a level 7 Jigglypuff when your team is probably around the level 20 mark (you'll probably have to settle for level 5 - I actually don't have any idea how easy it is to catch). Maybe I'm being paranoid about it, but that doesn't sound good.

    Everything else can probably stay in Low.

    Of the other stuff, Grimer and Koffing probably have the most merit because they can be caught fully evolved and at high levels (40+). They have decent stats too, and wide movepools. Not sure about these because I haven't used them, but inclined to say Low because of their lateness, mediocre typing and (I assume) rather underwhelming match-ups.

    Growlithe comes too late to be of much use. Dig Arcanine is at its peak mid-game, where there are tons of Poison-types to hit. Yellow Growlithe misses out on most of this.

    Hitmonchan starts off ok but lags quickly. It just has so many flaws that combine to make it a poor choice (bad movepool, horrible Special, etc.). It's Hitmonlee without anything that made Hitmonlee worth using.

    Kangaskhan is similar to Chansey really. Good Pokemon but too unavailable to be worth it.

    Red Krabby has too long to wait for STAB Crabhammer, which it needs to be as good as it can be.

    Lapras is too underleveled. Shame, because it has good stats, a nice typing and a great movepool (it also has what is possibly the best level up movepool in the game).

    Lickitung is clearly meant to play a similar role to Clefable/Wigglytuff/Nidoking/Nidoqueen given its movepool, but its stats are poor and it is caught too late. Boosted experience is nice though.

    Will address the actual write-ups later.
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Koffing is missing the entire E4 battle, and Lapras is missing the final rival battle.
  14. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Just realised just how low Wigglytuff's special is in RBY. In that case, it's about as 'good' as Raticate, most likely quite a bit worse due to the speed discrepancy. Makes it pretty poor for all the special TMs.
  15. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    Yeah I think its Special and Speed would cause Wigglytuff to lag badly late game. I think Wigglytuff would be decent early game though. Clefable is mostly using Normal STAB early game so Wigglytuff could do just as well in that respect, and the low Speed probably wouldn't be too much of an issue when everything is unevolved and at a lower level than you.

    I probably won't move it unless I get more support for it though. I remember Longfellow did a test run of it and judged it to be Mid just on the basis of its STAB alone (I don't think he ran any Special moves besides a water move for Rock-types), but I've never used it so I can only speculate.

    Also starting to wonder if putting Red Krabby in Low is a bit much. It DOES learn Body Slam and if we give credit to Flareon for that then maybe Red Krabby should be in Mid? I dunno.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Comments on analyses

    I won't discuss Yellow Growlithe, Hitmonchan or Kangaskhan because I wrote them.


    Grimer:
    • Availability should also mention that Grimer/Muk are catchable in the Power Plant in Yellow, even if it isn't really any easier to do it this way than via Pokemon Mansion.
    • Muk does NOT have 65 Speed, it has 50 Speed.
    • Mega Drain needs to be mentioned in Movepool, as does Fire Blast. I probably wouldn't mention Acid Armor because Muk doesn't learn it until level 60, which is well beyond the level you'll likely be taking the Elite 4 on with (unless you enjoy grinding).
    • Type section implies that Muk resists Bug in 1st gen, when it is actually weak to Bug.
    • Giovanni: Rhydon's Fissure will only cause problems if it outspeeds you (I have no idea if it does or not). Should probably mention that while RB Nidoqueen/Nidoking can't hit you super-effectively (and Body Slam/Thrash aren't so bad), you can't do much back to them unless you gave it Fire Blast or Body Slam.
    • Lance: His dragons have Special moves in Yellow. Yellow Dragonair isn't all that threatening but Dragonite is dangerous. Probably should mention Gyarados and Aerodactyl being weak to Thunderbolt/Thunder.
    Jigglypuff:
    • This analysis is good if Jigglypuff is to stay in Low, but if it moves up then it may need tweaking to make it less negative.
    • Stats: I hate the second part of the first sentence, "which is actually a curse in disguise, as if it has low health, it'll take more items to heal it than others". I'd remove that. Should mention that 70 Attack is ok early-game.
    • Blaine: Yellow Ninetales does not know Fire Spin. It knows Flamethrower though, which is more dangerous to be honest.
    • Lance: Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO Gyarados?
    Koffing:
    • Probably should be more specific about its Attack (90) and Special(85). When I read "average at best", I picture 70 Attack and Special, so it feels like an undersell.
    • Saying that the Thunder and Fire Blast TMs are obtained "much, much later" is silly because Koffing itself is a late-game Pokemon. Those TMs are actually obtained around the same time as Koffing (Thunder is earlier if you do the Power Plant first).
    • No Elite 4 battles?
    Red Krabby:
    • "Body Slam definitely helps it here. Even though it doesn't give it any OHKOes against the opposition, it's still its best attack for a good while." I think that's an exaggeration. Body Slam should do for Route 12-15. It works for Flareon so why not Kingler?
    Lapras:
    • Availability: should mention that it can be obtained before Erika if you are willing to detour into Saffron for a bit.
    • I think its Speed isn't as bad as the write-up suggests in the stat section.
    • Movepool should emphasize that Lapras has one of the better level-up movepools in the game. I don't think learning Surf + Strength is all that notable though.
    • Probably should discuss how it performs after it has caught up to the rest of the team. Power only discusses it when it is underleveled.
    • Type section should elaborate more on why Water + STAB Ice is so good.
    • Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weak Special. Who cares about Selfdestruct? Weezing is the only thing that can use it and if it happens, you win the battle (unless Lapras is your last Pokemon and it dies to it, but that's situational).
    • Blaine: Lapras doesn't resist Fire! Seriously I thought we got rid of all of these...
    • Agatha: Sleep isn't all that bad since Pokeflute cancels it and Hypnosis will miss eventually.
    • Lance: Ice Beam doesn't hit Gyarados super-effectively, but Thunderbolt does.
    • Should mention Blue fight.
    • Additional comments: I wouldn't say "late joining time" because you can get it mid-game by detouring into Saffron earlier than normal. Should just focus on being so underleveled.
    Lickitung
    • I think that any mentions of Yellow Lickitung should be removed because it can't be caught before the Elite 4. In fact, Yellow Lickitung should probably be grouped with Mewtwo and Mew as unavailable.
    • Surf should be mentioned in movepool, not BubbleBeam.
    • Not sure if I'd use this as a Swords Dance user. Speed is far too low for that. It's probably better just to attack outright and hope it does enough damage.
    • I think the match-ups are way too overhyped. It talks about how the moves you teach it affect how it performs against each leader, which is good, but then it implies that it could actually beat these trainers with these moves, which isn't good. For example, I have a hard time believing that BubbleBeam would be enough to solo Blaine, but that's the impression I get from the match-up for Blaine. Overall, these need to be toned down to something more realistic.
    • Koga and Agatha match-ups should be separated.
    • Blaine: Surf and Earthquake should be mentioned here as an option too.
    • Doesn't mention Giovanni, Lorelei or Blue match-ups!
    • Bruno: It can probably beat Hitmonchan given its horrid movepool. Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard are better for Onix than Earthquake.
    • Lance: Thunderbolt for Gyarados.
    • Bottom Line should be Additional Comments, for consistency.
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I read the BY Krabby entry and the Red one, and a lot of the match-ups seem similar. It seems weird to segregate them by TWO tiers.
  17. atsync

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    True. I think Naix wrote both of Krabby's analyses so he likely just paraphrased one match-up section and put it in the other.

    I was the one that recommended Red Krabby be put in Low but reconsidering everything it probably could go to Mid...
  18. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    If we are going the L23 Kingler w/ Super Rod route, it should also be noted that Surf comes at the same time as the Super Rod, so I don't think Kingler really has shitty STAB as it's implied (Kingler really doesn't need anything else other than Strength/Body Slam and Crabhammer so it's definitely able to spare a slot for Surf). Sure, Surf is quite the bit weaker than "I-crit-everything" Crabhammer, but a 95 BP STAB is a 95 BP STAB and should not be overlooked as an option for Kingler. Koga also runs an all physical team meaning that Kingler actually doesn't really sit there and do nothing, and in the very least do something with Body Slam/Strength/Surf.

    if you wanted we can also go the x-accuracy guillotine route but that's...
  19. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    70 Attack + Normal is more than decent-- it's basically hitting stuff as hard as Gyarados/Flareon can with normal attacks, more or less.
  20. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
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    I'm leaving this round open for 1 more day. More comments on Jigglypuff and Krabby are appreciated. I'll have my verdicts tomorrow.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    I think Krabby can stay low. His low Speed and Special make it really hard to bring him up to speed with the rest of the crew-- he has no real type advantage against any easily accessible opponents, and his very weak water attacks enhances this flaw. He really can't do anything with his water- STAB until he gets crabhammer, and the wait to get crabhammer in Red is a pretty big drag.

    The low level problem is much worse for Krabby than it is for say Horsea, because Horsea's Speed and Special (and immediate access to Surf) puts it in a very different situation in terms of ease of grinding. Mmmm... Kingler's Speed isn't a total lost cause though-- it is fast enough to outrun many in-game opponents.
  22. NoUserName

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    Surf may be also usable when the KO is sure to avoid the 15% miss rate of Crabhammer for things such as Graveler, Rhydon and Onix(lol)

    Also the usefulness of Surf in-game.

    What about SD in Kingler?
  23. atsync

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    Ok.

    I've decided to raise Jigglypuff and Red Krabby to Mid. However, since not everyone necessarily agrees with this, I would encourage people to test these guys out, just to be sure. I'll probably give them a test run myself at some point, if I can find the time between real life and the other Smogon projects I'm working on.

    @KingNeedlesThe1st: Just noticed you finished your Exeggutor test. I feel better about putting Exeggutor in Mid now! Regarding Egg Bomb, I just checked and Exeggutor can actually learn Strength, so it would probably be better to use that for the accuracy. Not that it matters that much. Thanks for testing.


    Changes (open)
    Grimer
    • Availability should also mention that Grimer/Muk are catchable in the Power Plant in Yellow, even if it isn't really any easier to do it this way than via Pokemon Mansion.
    • Muk does NOT have 65 Speed, it has 50 Speed.
    • Mega Drain needs to be mentioned in Movepool, as does Fire Blast. I probably wouldn't mention Acid Armor because Muk doesn't learn it until level 60, which is well beyond the level you'll likely be taking the Elite 4 on with (unless you enjoy grinding).
    • Type section implies that Muk resists Bug in 1st gen, when it is actually weak to Bug.
    • Giovanni: Rhydon's Fissure will only cause problems if it outspeeds you (I have no idea if it does or not). Should probably mention that while RB Nidoqueen/Nidoking can't hit you super-effectively (and Body Slam/Thrash aren't so bad), you can't do much back to them unless you gave it Fire Blast or Body Slam.
    • Lance: His dragons have Special moves in Yellow. Yellow Dragonair isn't all that threatening but Dragonite is dangerous. Probably should mention Gyarados and Aerodactyl being weak to Thunderbolt/Thunder.
    Jigglypuff
    • Changed tier, may need revamp
    • Stats: I hate the second part of the first sentence, "which is actually a curse in disguise, as if it has low health, it'll take more items to heal it than others". I'd remove that. Should mention that 70 Attack is ok early-game.
    • Blaine: Yellow Ninetales does not know Fire Spin. It knows Flamethrower though, which is more dangerous to be honest.
    • Lance: Thunderbolt doesn't 2HKO Gyarados?
    Koffing
    • Probably should be more specific about its Attack (90) and Special(85). When I read "average at best", I picture 70 Attack and Special, so it feels like an undersell.
    • Saying that the Thunder and Fire Blast TMs are obtained "much, much later" is silly because Koffing itself is a late-game Pokemon. Those TMs are actually obtained around the same time as Koffing (Thunder is earlier if you do the Power Plant first).
    • No Elite 4 battles?
    Red Krabby
    • Changed tier, may need revamp.
    • "Body Slam definitely helps it here. Even though it doesn't give it any OHKOes against the opposition, it's still its best attack for a good while." I think that's an exaggeration. Body Slam should do for Route 12-15. It works for Flareon so why not Kingler?
    • Mention Surf as a filler option. Swords Dance might be good in some situations, and Kingler is fast enough to use it.
    Lapras
    • Availability: should mention that it can be obtained before Erika if you are willing to detour into Saffron for a bit.
    • I think its Speed isn't as bad as the write-up suggests in the stat section.
    • Movepool should emphasize that Lapras has one of the better level-up movepools in the game. I don't think learning Surf + Strength is all that notable though.
    • Probably should discuss how it performs after it has caught up to the rest of the team. Power only discusses it when it is underleveled.
    • Type section should elaborate more on why Water + STAB Ice is so good.
    • Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weak Special. Who cares about Selfdestruct? Weezing is the only thing that can use it and if it happens, you win the battle (unless Lapras is your last Pokemon and it dies to it, but that's situational).
    • Blaine: Lapras doesn't resist Fire! Seriously I thought we got rid of all of these...
    • Agatha: Sleep isn't all that bad since Pokeflute cancels it and Hypnosis will miss eventually.
    • Lance: Ice Beam doesn't hit Gyarados super-effectively, but Thunderbolt does.
    • Should mention Blue fight.
    • Additional comments: I wouldn't say "late joining time" because you can get it mid-game by detouring into Saffron earlier than normal. Should just focus on being so underleveled.
    Lickitung
    • I think that any mentions of Yellow Lickitung should be removed because it can't be caught before the Elite 4. In fact, Yellow Lickitung should probably be grouped with Mewtwo and Mew as unavailable.
    • Surf should be mentioned in movepool, not BubbleBeam.
    • Not sure if I'd use this as a Swords Dance user. Speed is far too low for that. It's probably better just to attack outright and hope it does enough damage.
    • I think the match-ups are way too overhyped. It talks about how the moves you teach it affect how it performs against each leader, which is good, but then it implies that it could actually beat these trainers with these moves, which isn't good. For example, I have a hard time believing that BubbleBeam would be enough to solo Blaine, but that's the impression I get from the match-up for Blaine. Overall, these need to be toned down to something more realistic.
    • Koga and Agatha match-ups should be separated.
    • Blaine: Surf and Earthquake should be mentioned here as an option too.
    • Doesn't mention Giovanni, Lorelei or Blue match-ups!
    • Bruno: It can probably beat Hitmonchan given its horrid movepool. Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard are better for Onix than Earthquake.
    • Lance: Thunderbolt for Gyarados.
    • Bottom Line should be Additional Comments, for consistency.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------


    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next Pokemon up will be:

    Machop (RB) (open)
    Machop - Low Tier(Red and Blue)
    Availability: Towards the middle of the Game, Rock Tunnel specifically.
    Stats: Machoke has a good Attack stat with average or less-than-average stats everywhere else.
    Movepool:Starts with Karate Chop, which has a high critical hit ratio. Low Kick and Submission are its only STAB options, neither of which are exceptionally good. Moves like Strength, Rock Slide, Mega Kick, Earthquake and Fissure can be used to fill in the gaps in its level up movepool, which in all honesty isn't that good. Don't use Focus Energy.
    Power: Unless you are playing Yellow version or somehow find someone who still has a link cable (props if you do!), you are likely going to be using Machoke. It can do decent damage with its 100 base Attack, but you are probably better off with Hitmonlee or Primeape, who deal more damage and are faster.
    Type: In a game dominated by Normal-types, Machop and its evolutions STAB moves, as mediocre as they are, are incredibly helpful. Just stay away from the almost equally dominant Flying-types and rarer but much more dangerous Psychic-types. Machop can't take a Psychic-type attack to save its life.
    Match Ups: By the time you get Machop, it is almost useless against the remaining major battles. It can be somewhat helpful against Giovanni and Lorelei, but it doesn't excel against any of the Gyms or Elite Four. This line is much more suited for regular trainer battles.


    Machamp (Y) (open)
    Machamp (Y): Low Tier
    -Availability: Machamp is obtained through a traded Cubone, who is available at Pokemon Tower. So Mid-Game.
    -Stats: Machamp has a huge Attack stat, but has rather average defenses and low Speed.
    -Movepool: Mostly TM dependent, Rock Slide and Earthquake provide good coverage.
    -Power: Due to his huge Attack stat, Machamp hits hard.
    -Type: Fighting. In a game where Dark and Steel don't exist, and Poison types are omnipresent. Fighting isn't the best STAB to have.
    -Matchups:
    --Koga: His whole team packs Super Effective Psychic which takes Machamp down easily.
    --Sabrina: Her Pokemon outspeed and pack Super Effective Psychic to take Machamp out.
    --Blaine: Machamp can hit his Pokemon hard with Dig or Earthquake, but keep in mind all of his Pokemon outspeed Machamp and Machamp doesn't enjoy taking Fire moves. A Fire Blast burn will put a huge damper on Machamp's performance.
    --Giovanni: Machamp can beat Persian due to fighting STAB, and Earthquake hits majority of his team for Super Effective damage. However, Giovanni's Nidos and Rhydon can take a hit and retaliate with their own offensive moves.
    --Lorelei: Fighting is Super Effective on Ice, but Submission is a bad STAB move due to accuracy and recoil issues. Meanwhile, Machamp is worn down by Special Attacks.
    --Bruno: Fighting verse Fighting, Machamp breaks even here if you are at similar levels.
    --Agatha: Earthquake hits her team for Super Effective, while Rock Slide deals with Golbat. However, keep in mind her Pokemon are fast and her final Gengar knows Psychic.
    --Lance: While Rock Slide is Super Effective against half his Pokemon, Machamp wont enjoy taking Special Attacks or Hyper Beam. Not to mention Aerodactyl has Super Effective STAB Fly.
    --Gary: Machamp can take on Sandslash, and Exeggutor has he doesn't pack Psychic. But that is it.
    Additional Comments: Despite his strong power, Machamp is held back by his Speed and frailness. There's never really a point of the game where he dominates, and even the ones that he does fair well on, another Pokemon can easily do the job much better.


    Magmar (open)
    -Magmar (Blue only) - Low Tier


    -Availability: Magmar come late in the game, in the basement and top floor of Pokemon Mansion in Cinnabar Island to be specific. At the third floor, the have a one-in-ten chance of appearing, but are only at level 34. While Magmar are level 38 in the basement, they aren't exactly the most common Pokemon there at a 4% encounter rate. Capturing Magmar can be noticeably difficult thanks to their low catch rate.
    -Stats: Overall, Magmar's stats are good, but none of them are impressive. Surprisingly, Magmar's Attack is higher than its Special, but it's nothing incredible at a base 95. Another noticeable aspect of Magmar's stats is that its Defense is poor, below that of Primeape and even Goldeen.
    -Movepool: When caught, Magmar is likely to know merely Ember and Leer. This means it greatly appreciates TM support almost to the point of necessity, as it doesn't learn a good attack (which in this case is Fire Punch) until level 43. 2 TMs you should have access to by the time you get Magmar are Mega Punch, which can be bought in the Celadon Department Store, and Psychic, which is its best weapon against Rock/Ground-types but is a once-in-the-game TM. Magmar can also learn Submission, but it isn't recommended as it causes recoil.
    -Power: Because Magmar's Special is merely average, it won't be doing too much against the several resists it'll encounter soon after being caught.
    -Type: Fire is an unfortunate type to have late in the game, as everything at that point in the game either resists Fire-type attacks, hits their users super effectively, or both.​
    -Match-ups:

    --Blaine: Because Magmar resists Fire-type attacks, Blaine will not use any against it, allowing Magmar to take out everything but his Arcanine, as Magmar's mediocre physical bulk will cause it to be worn down. However, Blaine has a strange tendency to use pointless moves like Roar when there isn't any need to, helping Magmar's chances against him.
    --Giovanni: Whether Magmar does well against his Rhyhorn and Rhydon or not depends on whether or not it knows Psychic, as the best it can do against him without it is defeating the Nidos. An important thing to remember is that Dugtrio will always beat Magmar regardless of what moves it has.
    --Lorelei: Despite Slowbro being the only Pokemon on her team that resists Fire-type attacks, Lapras and occasionally Cloyster can also cause trouble for Magmar. The reason why Dewgong doesn't is because even though it is a Water-type, it doesn't actually know any Water-type moves, though Rest can be a pain if you don't want to waste Fire Blast, but then again, there isn't much in the Pokemon League for Magmar to use Fire Blast against in the first place.
    --Bruno: His 2 Onix are much like Giovanni's Rhyhorn and Rhydon: they can comfortably take whatever Magmar throws at it other than Psychic. Speaking of which, Magmar with Psychic almost entirely sweeps Bruno, but it can settle with Fire Blast if it wants, as the two have the same base power after factoring in STAB and type match-ups. Machamp might be able to take a Psychic or Fire Blast thanks to its impressive level as well as Magmar's average Special.
    --Agatha: As with several Pokemon, Magmar has trouble against Agatha's Ghost-types without the aid of items due to the fact that its most powerful attack hits them on their very high Special, allowing them to confuse or sleep Magmar before going down. It doesn't help that all of them are faster. Her other 2 Pokemon, Golbat and Arbok, are much easier to deal with thanks to them having mediocre Special as well as (Arbok) being slower than Magmar.
    --Lance: Everything on Lance's team resists Fire-type moves, they all know Hyper Beam which hits it hard because of its poor Defense, and he leads the fight with his Gyarados, which happens to know Hydro Pump.
    --Rival: Everything Magmar beats one-on-one here can easily be taken out with several other Pokemon, meaning that while it could take out a few of his Pokemon, it isn't too impressive.​

    -Additional Comments: Magmar is unfortunately a Fire-type who came a bit too late to be useful, as it joins surrounded by Water-types and bosses, almost all of which have favorable outcomes against it. Another thing of note is that it knows only Ember and possibly Leer when its caught, and catching them can be a pain considering the chances of finding them (10% and 4% on the top and bottom floors of Pokemon Mansion, respectively) as well as how resistant they are to being caught.​


    Moltres (open)
    Moltres - Low Tier
    -Availability: Available through a detour at Victory Road at the end of the game. It comes at the level 50 and is hard to catch, so be sure to have a ton of Ultra Balls and save before you fight the legendary bird.
    -Stats: Moltres has one of the best BST's in the game, most notable of its stat is it 100 Base Attack and 125 Special.
    -Movepool: When you get it, the only moves it has are Peck and Fire Spin. Peck can be replaced by Fly, and if you kept TM38 you can give Moltres Fire Blast. However Moltres cannot learn Flamethrower, which is an issue as Fire Blast can quickly run out of PP. At Level 55 Moltres learns Agility, allowing you to use the Agility + Fire Spin combo. However, trapping moves are time consuming and have unreliable accuracy.
    -Power: Fly off a 100 Base Attack will hurt anything that doesn't resist it, and his Fire Blast is tied with Articuno's Blizzard and Zapdos' Thunder as the most powerful Special move int he game.
    -Type: Here is where Moltres falls apart. Its Fire/Flying type doesn't do it many favors. It's typing helps it overwhelm the E4's Fighting and Grass types, but those are minor threats. Not to mention it gives Moltres an unwanted weakness to Water, Ice, Rock, and Electric.
    --Lorelei: Moltres is weak to Water and Ice moves, which are omnipresent in this battle. The only notable fight here is Jynx, who despite knowing an Ice move, is weak to Fire Blast.
    --Bruno: Fly easily disposes of his Fighting types. While Fire Blast can overwhelm Onix, it is not recommended due to Fire Blast's limited PP, Fire Blast's 15% chance of missing, and the fact that Onix has Rock moves - which Moltres is quadruply weak to.
    --Agatha: Much like Articuno, Moltres can easily overwhelm her team through sheer force. Just watch out for Confuse Ray hax.
    --Lance: His entire team resists Fire, and in every version he leads off with a Gyarados with STAB Hydro Pump. In R&B, Moltres can spam Fly against the two Dragonair's and hope for a lucky break, but in Yellow all of his Dragons including Dragonite know Super Effective moves. It should be noted that although Aerodactyl resists Fire, its low defenses means that it will take a ton of damage from Fire Blast. Just make sure you don't run out of Fire Blast PP if you dare to challenge Aerodactyl.
    --Gary: Moltres walls his Grass types, and it can take on Pidgeot. Moltres can also take a Psychic from Alakazam and hit back with Fly, but Alakazam can use the set up turn of Fly as a chance to set up Reflect or even just Recover. Don't bother fighting his Water Types or Rhydon. In the Yellow version of this fight - Exeggutor, Ninetails/Flareon, and Sandslash are your main targets.
    -Additional Comments: Moltres has high stats and comes at Level 50 just like Articuno and Zapdos, so where did it go wrong? Simple, its typing. By the time you get to the E4, Fire/Flying is only good against E4 Pokemon who are not really a big threat, such as Exeggutor. Another problem is that it doesn't get Flamethrower, meaning you'll only have Fire Blast limited PP to take on the E4 with.


    Onix (open)
    -Onix - Low Tier
    -Availability: Onix is caught in the Rock Tunnel. Although this isn't exactly late, Onix does come rather underleveled (especially in RB; in Yellow it is a bit better at level 22). It is also somewhat uncommon and has a relatively low catch rate.
    -Stats: Onix's stats are terribly distributed. Its best stat is Defense by far. At 160, it is the second highest in the game (behind Cloyster). Onix also has 70 Speed which is acceptable in-game and quite high for a Pokemon of its type. Unfortunately, that's where the good news ends. Remarkably, Onix has the second lowest Attack stat (45, ties with Mr. Mime and Butterfree, but beats Chansey) and the lowest Special stat (30) out of all the fully evolved Pokemon in the game! Onix also has a pitiful HP stat (35), and although it can still take physical hits quite well the low HP does go some way to cancelling out Onix's massive Defense.
    -Movepool: Onix has a poor level up movepool, with Slam as its strongest Attack. It also gets Bind but trapping strategies generally aren’t recommended for efficient playthroughs. Onix will need to use TMs to get its ideal movepool. Onix gets Dig, Earthquake and Rock Slide which are all great moves, but it's important to keep in mind that Onix is in competition with a lot of Pokemon for access to these TMs, and thanks to its horrible stats Onix is almost always an inferior choice for these exclusive moves.
    -Power: Even if it manages to get all of its best moves, Onix's Attack is too low for sweeping multiple enemies. It should be said that the useful resistances provided by its typing do allow it to beat certain foes one-on-one, but it isn't really able to kill things quickly and of course its low Special and horrible weaknesses cause it flat out lose against other opponents, making its performance inconsistent.
    -Type: Its typing is a mixed bag. On the plus side, its STABs alone have perfect coverage against everything. Rock/Ground also gives it a useful Normal resistance, and there are some opponents that simply can't touch Onix to save themselves (Electric types especially have this problem). On the other hand, it has horrible 4x weaknesses to Water and Grass (along with Fighting, Ground and Ice weaknesses). Basically, its typing guarantees that it will have great match-ups at particular parts of the game, but its weaknesses ensure that it will need plenty of team support to get around dangerous foes.
    -Match-ups: Lt. Surge - It is technically possible to have Onix before this battle. If you do, you win. You are immune to Electric and take little from his Normal attacks, and you should have STAB Dig on your side.
    Erika - Onix is horribly weak to Grass and should sit this one out. If you must use it, Onix can at least beat Tangela in RB because it only has Bind and Constrict.
    Koga - Onix's high Defense and resistances are well suited to this battle in RB. In Yellow, his bugs are hitting you on your weaker side, although Venonat is rather weak and you should have Rock Slide. This match-up isn’t a complete disaster.
    Sabrina - Onix is facing STAB Psychic attacks and although it isn't weak to them they can still do a lot to it. Onix is probably one of the few physical attackers that her Pokemon are able to take hits from comfortably. At least Venomoth is weak to Rock Slide, and Mr. Mime only has Confusion so it is less threatening than Kadabra and Alakazam.
    Blaine - Your typing is perfect for this battle, but don't think you have it easy. Ninetales's Flamethrower is going to hurt, as is Fire Blast from Arcanine. You can contribute in this gym, but it isn't necessarily a clean sweep like in Lt. Surge's gym.
    Giovanni - Onix can do ok in RB because most of his Pokemon can't do much to it (Dugtrio’s Dig is easy to play around). In Yellow, everything bar Persian has STAB Earthquake. Onix has enough Defense to take a few of these but they will take their toll. Overall, Onix is pretty useful against Giovanni but hardly the number one choice.
    Lorelei – Don’t use Onix here. Onix’s typing is not suited for this battle and it doesn’t do enough damage (even with it having a super-effective STAB Rock Slide for most of her team).
    Bruno – Onix is capable of beating itself, especially in RB. Hitmonchan is a bit of a joke, but stay away from Hitmonlee and Machamp. Onix isn’t really a huge help for this battle but it can do something if you must use it.
    Agatha – Both STABs have perfect super-effective coverage against her entire team, but the Ghosts can easily screw you over with status. One of the Gengar in Yellow has Mega Drain which will destroy Onix, and Psychic also stings.
    Lance – In RB, only Gyarados has a move that is significantly dangerous to Onix (although the Dragonair also have Dragon Rage, which may sound like a joke but with Onix’s low HP it can be a significant threat if they start spamming it). Aerodactyl and Dragonite can’t really touch you, so you can beat those at least. In Yellow, Gyarados poses the same threat, but you also have BubbleBeam/Ice Beam Dragonair and Blizzard Dragonite to worry about. Aerodactyl is still walled, and the Thunderbolt Dragonair will lose too.
    Blue – In RB, he has the moves and typing to take on Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Arcanine and Charizard. In Yellow, he can beat Exeggutor, Magneton, Ninetales, Jolteon and Flareon. Overall, Onix can contribute.
    -Additional Comments – Although calling Onix completely useless would be a bit unfair, what it comes down to is that its many flaws outweigh its positive attributes. Despite some decent match-ups, great dual STABs and a few useful resistances, Onix is very weak (it even has a lower Attack stat than some unevolved Pokemon like Oddish, Pikachu and Psyduck). It is completely reliant on some valuable TMs, it has a number of terrible weaknesses and struggles to sweep opponents which leaves it highly dependent upon its team mates to help it out, and to top it off it is somewhat annoying to find and capture. It just isn’t worth it.


    Paras (open)
    -Paras - Low Tier
    -Availability: Paras are found in Mt. Moon, and the deeper you go, the more common (and higher leveled) Paras will be. For comparison's sake, they have a 10% encounter rate at level 10 (9-11 in Yellow) in the middle floor and have a 15% chance of appearing in the deepest floor, at levels 10-12 (13 in Yellow). They can be found on the ground (top) floor in Red and Blue, but not in Yellow. They're only a 5% encounter there, so you're better off looking in the lower floors. Paras evolve at level 24.
    -Stats: As with most early-game Bug-types, Paras have unimpressive stats all around. Their only stat that could be considered better than "average" is Attack, but it quickly falls behind due to a forgettable physical movepool. As for Speed, Parasect is up there with speed demons Snorlax and Slowbro.
    -Movepool: Paras starts with Scratch as its only move, but gains Stun Spore at level 13, not too far from when you catch it. Stun Spore could potentially be very helpful, but the fact that you have to waste a turn to use it means it's only useful against Gym Leaders (that is, those that Paras and Parasect have a chance at beating). Paras's only STAB moves are Leech Life and Mega Drain; however, Leech Life is weaker that Scratch in any scenario other than ones where Leech Life deals super effective damage, and Mega Drain's power isn't too much better. Paras and Parasect also learn Slash, but not until level 39, and Parasect is one of the few users of Slash to not have a guaranteed critical hit when using it (for reference, Parasect's chance of landing a critical hit with Slash is 48.88%). Because of this, Body Slam is a great alternative, as it has a higher base power and Parasect also appreciates the paralysis chance. Other moves in Parasect's arsenal include Spore, which is very helpful against several bosses, and Swords Dance, whose sole purpose is to make Leech Life usable. Paras and Parasect also have access to Dig, which is possibly their best damaging move. Unfortunately for Paras, having it learn Dig means having none of your other Pokemon learn it, and Dig is a highly-contested TM, which might cause trouble for other Pokemon who might also greatly benefit from it.
    -Power: With an initially average Attack stat and no STAB moves, it should come as no surprise that Paras starts off doing poorly. Even after it evolves and all of its stats get a much-needed (but not quite as much as it would have liked) increase, its performance never exceeds being average, thanks to its 4x weakness to Flying-type attacks as well as its pathetic speed and unimpressive defenses.
    -Type: Paras's typing is infamous for having the most 4x weaknesses in the game, at 3. Said weaknesses are to Fire-, Poison-, and Flying-type moves, the latter two being quite common after Pokemon Tower. Also, while Bug and Grass are both helpful STABs at certain points in the game, Parasect just doesn't have the stats or moves to utilize them.
    -Match-ups: The following match-ups will not take Spore into account, as a majority of them would be made easier, but longer.
    --Misty: While Paras does have a resistance to Bubblebeam, it still has trouble with Misty if it doesn't know Leech Life due to its Scratch doing less to her Starmie than said Starmie's Tackle does in return.
    --Lt. Surge: Parasect runs into a similar problem here, just replace Leech Life with Dig. Also, the problem is much more noticeable in Yellow due to his Raichu knowing Mega Kick.
    --Erika: Her Victreebel (Weepinbell in Yellow) will not hesitate to Wrap Parasect into oblivion, but her other Pokemon fall quite easily to Leech Life.
    --Koga: Koga's Pokemon all either have good defensive stats, allowing them to not faint in 2 Digs (Red/Blue), or are higher in level than Parasect, possess a neutrality to Dig, and can fire back with Psychic (Yellow)
    --Sabrina: Leech Life does less to Alakazam than Recover heals, meaning you'll have to be reliant on Slash (which might as well be a coinflip) or Body Slam (which is learned via an exclusive TM) to beat it. This is not taking into account her previous Pokemon, which could capably weaken (if not KO) Parasect on their own.
    --Blaine: Parasect is sluggish and has a 4x weakness to Fire Blast. Nothing more needs to be said.
    --Giovanni: How well Parasect does against his Rhydon depends on whether or not it knows Mega Drain. While Dig gets the job done, it takes more hits to beat Rhydon with it than Mega Drain. Persian can be an annoyance, but the Nidos are far from intimidating, thanks to them having few attacks effective against Parasect.
    --Lorelei: Considering all of her Pokemon (barring Slowbro for whatever reason) know Ice-type attacks of some sort, it should be safe to say Parasect should not be fighting her.
    --Bruno: As with Giovanni's Rhydon, Bruno's Onix can either be taken down by 5, 2, or countless hits, depending on whether you taught Parasect Dig, Mega Drain, or neither. However, his Fighting-types can be beaten without Dig, with the exception of R/B Hitmonchan, as it knows Counter.
    --Agatha: First of all, Parasect needs Dig to beat her Ghost-types. Secondly, she has a tendency to switch to Golbat when an opponent goes underground. Thirdly, all of her Pokemon are faster than Parasect and know status-inducing moves, which can be quite irritating.
    --Lance: While Parasect might be able to withstand a Hyper Beam and then proceed to sleep something with Spore, that's all it can do against Lance.
    --Rival: Most of the things Parasect can beat (and there are only 2-3 of those) are easily taken down by several different Pokemon, with the exception of Jolteon in Yellow if Parasect knows Dig.
    -Additional Comments: Paras and Parasect were never good. This is mainly due to its lack of usable (outside of super effective hits) STAB, poor typing, and middling stats. While Spore is a great move, it was unfortunately given to a Pokemon that didn't have the Speed, defenses, or typing to utilize it to its greatest effect. As such, Paras (and Parasect) should not be considered for anything in Generation I. Even its utility of being a good HM Slave for Rock Tunnel because of its ablility to learn both Cut and Flash is only applicable to the remakes due to Paras not being able to learn Flash until Generation II.


    Pidgey (open)
    -Pidgey - Low Tier
    -Availability: Immediately available as soon as you can catch Pokemon on the very first route, and is very easy to catch. Likely will be among the very first Pokemon you obtain.
    -Stats: The Pidgeot line is an example of extreme mediocrity when it comes to stats All of them are middle of the road with speed being slightly higher than average and Special being slight lower.
    -Movepool: Pidgeot's level-up movepool is sorely lacking in powerful attacks, and requires TM and HM support to become useful, and even then remains quite limited, with only Normal and Flying type moves available. Worse, no Flying type STAB move is available until either HM 02 Fly is obtained (recommended) or Wing Attack is learned at level 31 (not recommended since it really blows in generation I). This is due to Gust being Normal Type in Generation I. However, most of the most beneficial TMs for Pidgeot such as Take Down, Reflect, and Fly are easily obtainable once the player reaches Celadon City.
    -Power: Pidgeot is quite average in both attacking and defensive strengths. The length of time one must wait for a Flying Type STAB greatly reduces Pidgeot's effectiveness early game however. Once the moves are obtained though Pidgeot can hold its own against most foes.
    -Type: Flying Type is quite useful early game... shame Pidgey doesn't get any flying moves until Celadon City, rendering this advantage moot. Once you do get Fly though, Pidgeot makes a rather effective substitute for a Fire type, since the selection available is quite slim unless you chose Charmander as a starter.
    -Match-ups:
    Brock - Very little chance, though if you're in a real bind Pidgey can use Sand Attack to increase your chances of success
    Misty - Staryu won't provide Pidgeotto with any challenge, but Starmie will prove a very great challenge due to its much higher special and Bubblebeam
    Lt. Surge - Since his Voltorb has no electric moves Pidgeotto can handle it, but Pikachu and Raichu will probably destroy you.
    Erika - Status is annoying, but if you can keep Pidgeotto alive and have taught it Fly before the fight, Pidgeotto should absolutely demolish Erika.
    Koga - Due to the high defensive stats of Koga's Pokemon Pidgeot isn't a very good choice for this battle, and is all to likely to get taken out by Self-Destruct
    Sabrina - Hitting quickly and fairly hard on the physical side, Pidgeot can actually stand a fair chance here. Does not take their attacks particularly well though, but better than some at least.
    Blaine - Average at best, and must look out for random burns. While not a terrible choice, you probably have better Pokemon for the job at this point.
    Giovanni - Matches fairly well against his Pokemon without Rock Typing, but very poorly against those that do.
    Lorelei - They all carry Ice type attacks except for Slowbro and are too bulky for Pidgeot to OHKO, with the possibel exception of Jynx. Best to stay out of this one.
    Bruno - Matches up very well against his fighting types, but very poorly against his Onix. Don't worry too much about Ice and Thunder punch from Hitmonchan; coming off his special they're laughably weak.
    Agatha - Fares as well as anything does that doesn't hit them super-effectively. Simply be on top of any status inflicted on Pidgeot and you should be fine, though the battle will be longer than if you used a psychic or ground type.
    Lance - Matches up pretty poorly against most of his team, though might stand up to his Dragonair should it be required.
    Rival - Works well against Exeggutor and Venusaur, but distinctly less well against the rest of his team, who all hit too hard and are not OHKO'd by Pidgeot.
    Additional comments: Not sure on the tier to be mid or low. While Pidgeot is quite severely outclassed by Fearow, it's not a bad Pokemon and I have brought it to the end of the game several times without regrets. It just doesn't stand out.


    Pinsir (open)
    Pinsir (Bottom Tier)
    Availability: (Blue/Yellow Only) Players who want Pinsir can buy him from the Rocket Game Corner if they have the coins. He's only 2500 in Blue, but costs a ridiculous 6500 in Yellow. Alternatively, he's in the Safari Zone, but he's rare and pretty difficult to catch.
    Stats: Pinsir has great Attack and good Defense, but is really let down by his average Speed and terrible HP and Special.
    Movepool: Pinsir may have the worst move pool in the game. He learns no STAB moves and he can only learn non-Normal moves (besides Seismic Toss) through TM. It's not all horrible though; Pinsir gets Swords Dance and Guillotine through Level-Up and can make decent use of the buyable Submission TM. However, unless you want to waste your Body Slam TM on him, it'll be stuck with Slash in the fourth slot, which has pretty terrible synergy with Swords Dance. In Yellow it gets Bind, so it can trap whatever is slower with some luck.
    Power: All in all, even though Pinsir has decent stats it's entirely outclassed by almost everything. It doesn't have the bulk to tank hits while setting up Swords Dance, and doesn't get any STAB to work with. Even off that great Attack stat, it'll hardly ever get OHKOs and gets wrecked by any Special, Flying, or Rock move sent his way. You can fish for OHKOs with Guillotine, but Pinsir's low Speed means it's not reliable. If you teach it Submission you can do some damage to things weak to Fighting, but it doesn't have any other redeeming qualities.
    Type: Pinsir is really just a Fighting-type wannabe. It would be much better if it had STAB on Submission. Heck, even being Normal would be an improvement. As it is, Bug typing really hurts him since it means he has no STAB at all. Being weak to for somewhat common types (mainly Flying and Poison) doesn't help either.
    Match Ups: Pinsir does horrible against almost everything. What did you expect with such horrible typing and coverage?
    --Erika:It can chip away at Tangela, but shouldn't face anything with a poison-type move.
    --Koga: Koga destroys you. End of story.
    --Sabrina: Pinsir's low Special and HP means he can't take many Psychic hits. He should sit this one out too.
    --Blaine: Lol
    --Giovanni: Pinsir can actually do okay against Rhyhorn, Rhydon and Dugtrio in Blue and Persian in Yellow, but needs Submission.
    --Lorelei: Pinsir can dish out some damage with Submission, but is let down by his low Special, so he can't take hits.
    --Bruno: A Fighting resistance actually comes in handy here. You can set up Swords Dance against Hitmonlee and Machamp (both versions) or Hitmonchan in Blue and sweep with Strength or Submission.
    --Agatha: Pinsir can't even touch 3/5 pokemon. Pass.
    --Lance: Not great in Blue, but even worse in Yellow since Lance's Dragons get better moves.
    --Blue: He can take on Rhydon in Blue and Sandslash in Yellow, but you should really have a better option for both of those.
    Additional Comments: If the analysis hasn't convinced you, let me make this clear. There is no good reason to use Pinsir. He has horrible typing, an even worse move pool, and embarrassing Special and HP for a fully evolved pokemon. His middling Speed is the final nail in the coffin, meaning his great Attack is really wasted. He's not even a good HM slave since he comes too late for Cut and you probably have plenty of other things to learn Strength. In a nutshell, there's nothing Pinsir can do that something else can't do much better. If you must use Pinsir, be sure to teach him Submisison and then hope for the best.


    Ponyta (open)
    -Ponyta - Low Tier
    -Availability: In RB, it can only be found in the Pokémon Mansion on Cinnabar Island, which is quite late. It does come at as high as level 36 though, which isn’t too bad if you head to Cinnabar as soon as possible. It comes earlier in Yellow (Cycling Road) and arrives at up to level 32, which at least means that it doesn’t need to grind much. Ponyta users would be wise to save Erika's gym for after Ponyta is obtained because it provides easy experience for it.
    -Stats: In terms of raw stats, Ponyta is strong for an unevolved Pokémon thanks to its 90 Speed and 85 Attack. Its Special is a tad low though considering the low power of its STABs before Fire Blast, and it is somewhat frail. It doesn’t evolve until level 40 but is boosted to 100 Attack and 105 Speed when it does. Its high Speed is key because it allows it to abuse Stomp and Fire Spin as effectively as possible, and that's really the best thing it can do a lot of the time. It also has an improved 80 Special and can take hits better.
    -Movepool: This is Ponyta’s biggest flaw. Ponyta’s movepool is very limited, and is among the worst of the fire types (and that actually says a lot). It cannot learn Flamethrower so it is stuck with Ember and Fire Spin as STAB by level up. Fire Spin can trap things and Ponyta can technically beat anything using this strategy, but it is slow and unreliable. Fire Blast arrives as a late game TM and packs great power, but it has poor PP and shaky accuracy which makes it difficult to spam. Stomp has a helpful flinch rate and works well with its speed but is somewhat lacking in power given its lack of STAB. Ponyta really wants access to Body Slam which is its most reliable physical attack, but it is a valuable TM and without it Ponyta is stuck with Stomp, Take Down and Double-Edge.
    -Power: Its movepool hurts it in this department, to the extent that it undermines its strong stats. Before Fire Blast it is mostly relying on unSTABed moves and Fire Spin trapping to deal damage but that just doesn’t cut it a lot of the time. When it fails to KO, it takes a hit and this damage can add up quickly. You may be forced to backtrack to the Pokémon centre often.
    -Type: Fire is considered one of the lesser types in RBY. Ponyta’s fire moves are weak until it gets Fire Blast, which has low PP and mediocre coverage by the time it arrives. Fire has some bad weaknesses to Water, Ground and Rock, and Fire’s resistances are less helpful later on.
    -Match-ups: Erika – It is unlikely that you’ll be waiting this long to let Ponyta take on Erika (mainly in RB; Yellow maybe), but if you wait (and give Ponyta Fire Blast), it can do well. Without Fire Blast, it will be using its weaker Fire moves, which her Pokémon survive (this leaves you open to status). You should still win one-on-one though, and if you prefer you can try to rely on Stomp flinches and Fire Spin trapping too.
    Koga – Only Yellow Ponyta has the opportunity to fight Koga. It should be able to take on the weak Venonat, but it may find itself worn down by his level 50 Venomoth.
    Sabrina – Rapidash can potentially hold its own here because it’s fast and can hit hard with its physical moves. Stomp isn’t really powerful but the flinches are helpful if luck is on your side. Body Slam is preferred for the extra kick. At the very least it should be able to beat everything except Alakazam, and with a bit of good fortune even Alakazam can be taken down (this is easier to do in RB).
    Blaine – This is a mirror match! The fact that you are fast helps you a lot and if you can get some flinches then you can potentially sweep. This is easier in RB because of his weak Growlithe and Ponyta.
    Giovanni – Rhyhorn and Rhydon wall you, although Fire Blast will take a chunk out of them. Despite this, RB Giovanni isn’t that threatening because of the terrible movepools his Pokémon carry (only Dugtrio has a supereffective move and it is easy to avoid). In Yellow, everything bar Persian has Earthquake so be careful.
    Lorelei – Aside from Jynx, you are better off staying away from this battle.
    Bruno – Onix walls you, although it will take a lot from Fire Blast. Fire Blast roasts his fighting types and their deficient specials.
    Agatha – Her ghosts are immune to your physical moves and can take a Fire Blast, although it should be said that most of her Pokémon have poor movesets. Use pokeflute to avoid Dream Eater.
    Lance – Not that great. Gyarados has Hydro Pump and Aerodactyl walls you. His dragons resist Fire Blast although you can at least try your normal moves. They are less threatening in RB than in Yellow (also, one of the Dragonair has BubbleBeam in Yellow).
    Blue – Rapidash isn’t anything special here but Fire/Normal coverage has a few targets. You should probably leave Rhydon, Gyarados, Blastoise, Sandslash, Vaporeon and maybe Cloyster for something else. You destroy Venusaur and Exeggutor, and it can go head-to-head against everything else.
    -Additional Comments: Ponyta’s movepool is just too crappy, to the extent that it ends up relying on Fire Spin trapping and Stomp flinches to kill things without taking damage. This isn’t something that should be relied on if you are trying to get through the game efficiently. If it could learn Earthquake or Dig it might have been more useful, but in the end it is a Pokémon with good stats that are wasted on a barren movepool.


    Discuss. I'll share my thoughts later.
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
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    Machop and Machamp: Obviously these two play very differently, but are they different enough to warrant separate entries? I don't think so, when at the end it's just "generic fighting type that doesn't do much". Also, if both are to somehow be kept separate, Machop needs a fatter entry.

    The others are fine where they are (lategame fires are bad, onix has the same attack stat as pidgey, pidgey and pinsir get shit moves, and parasect has 3 fucking 4x weaknesses)
  25. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
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    Yeah I was thinking the same thing. Yellow Machamp has boosted experience (and unlike RB Machop, you can assume access to Machamp in Yellow), but I'm starting to think it might be easier to merge them. It would certainly save time having to rewrite Machop's entry too.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I think everything can stay Low.

    Pidgey probably has the best chance of a tier rise (early availability, balanced stats when fully evolved, and grows reasonably quickly), but I still think of it as a Low tier Pokemon. Its level-up movepool is horrible and pretty much means that it can't OHKO much of anything for the first-half of the game (Quick Attack has 40 base power and will never hit anything for super-effective damage). When it gains Fly and Double-Edge/Take Down, it improves a bit but it still a Pidgeotto with 60 Attack, and it doesn't evolve until level 36. It has only a few match-ups that I would favourable too, although I guess it can contribute against trainers like Sabrina somewhat ok. I mean, it's more... "usable", than most of the other Low tier Pokemon and a rise to Mid wouldn't bother me that much, but I've used it a fair bit in Yellow and I'm not convinced.

    Machop/Machamp has a huge Attack stat but is slow and frail (mainly on the special side), and it has a bad type. Submission as its powerful STAB is bad and it's TM dependent, although it has an advantage over other fighting-types with its access to Earthquake and Rock Slide.

    Magmar is the worst Fire-type in the game. Enough said.

    Moltres is far too late to be of much use despite its impressive stats.

    Onix has some good points (acceptable Speed, good STABs, useful typing and allows it to beat certain Pokemon easily) but its bad points (terrible Attack, Special and HP, horrible weaknesses, TM dependent, annoying to catch) outweight them.

    Paras is slow, has a thin movepool, and Grass/Bug is the worst defensive typing in RBY. Its Attack and defences are decent though.

    Pinsir has a dreadful movepool (Normal moves, Submission, and Seismic Toss) and is a rare Safari Zone Pokemon (or an expensive Game Corner one).

    Ponyta can work using its Fire Spin and Stomp flinching strategies and its stats are alright, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a late evolving Fire type with a bad, TM dependent movepool.

    Will comment on analyses later.

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