1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by atsync, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    It learns Poison Gas naturally, which is a lot more logical(what the programmmers were smoking?)


    In my experience, Hypnosis+Dream Eater is good on Gastly's line. Hypnosis used by them hardly misses if I remember correctly, and if it misses, they have a great Special and inmunity to Normal-type moves to make up for the miss, also Dream Eater recovers HP lost when they miss.

    ---

    About the Analysis:

    Drowzee

    In the end of the analysis, it should be added that Abra relies on Seismic Toss until it envolves and envolves by trading, although Kadabra without envolving is usable. Clefairy isn't as difficult to obtain than Abra, because it's common around the end of Mt. Moon.

    Bellsprout

    I think it could be improved saying that the only Dragons in the game are the Lance's ones and they even are impossible to fight against Dragon-types on the wild(they appear on Safari Zone)

    Flareon

    Only theorymon, but, shouldn't be Quick Attack useful on Flareon due to its High base Attack and slowliness to kill very frail things or with low HP remaining?
  2. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    312
    Hypnosis has the same fixed accuracy so Gastly's use of it is on average the same as anyone else's.

    Kadabra can be caught in the wild in Yellow, skipping the Abra stage entirely.

    About Quick Attack: I find it a good move to put on a set for getting KOs you missed even for faster pokes because Pidgeys and Rattatas have priority attacks of their own, so by using your own you avoid being hit. I agree that Flareon isn't the fastest mon around and would thus make better use of it though.
  3. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2012
    Messages:
    233
    Seismic Abra isn't terrible, although Kadabra is certainly preferred. It'll be evolved before you even find Drowzee in the wild, anyway.

    Gastly's better off sucking up any TMs you don't have a use for. HypnoEater is a bit of a gimmick if you aren't Butterfree in Gen 3.

    As for Quick Attack, I highly recommend (as a Flareon user myself) keeping it. It can clean up things that Flareon fails to OHKO with Body Slam/Strength or his STAB move. Flareon is an offensive juggernaut; 110 Special and 130 Attack makes it a really good counter to Special Attackers like Alakazam, and you REALLY don't want that thing attacking more than once if you can help it.
  4. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I do remember you saying that more than once, and I did actually add a sentence or 2 on it in the movepool section. However, I have not had enough time to try the set out myself, and my life has become busy so I won't be able to try it for a while.

    I guess I'll have to trust your judgement in this case. Hopefully others can vouch for it...

    What did you actually have in mind for Bellsprout anyway? Do you just want the movepool section rewritten, or do you want the whole analysis rewritten? I remember you expressing interest in moving Bellsprout back up to High...

    I guess so. I haven't played RB as much as Yellow so I don't know how it works, but if it works for Venusaur then it should work for Victreebel. In that case, the match-up should say that.

    Yes.

    It's very unreliable. I've seen Hypnosis miss 5+ times in a row before, and of course it's very annoying when the opponent wakes up in the same that you put it to sleep because it means you have to hope Hypnosis hits again.

    I wouldn't be against it getting mentioned, but it'll be mentioned just to show how crappy it is.

    Probably not, although Electabuzz doesn't have that many other moves to run otherwise.

    Thunder Wave might be worth mentioning instead.

    The additional comments section could be reworded perhaps. I definitely agree that needing to catch a Clefairy to get Mr. Mime in Yellow isn't much of a downside. It's actually pretty easy to find.

    Fine.

    Honestly Flareon isn't really that slow. 65 Speed is actually sufficient against most trainers. I guess Quick Attack could be useful against things like opposing Quick Attack users and fast stuff like Alakazam though.

    For what it's worth, the analysis already mentions Quick Attack, albeit very briefly and without discussing its uses.
  5. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Yeah 65 Base Speed isn't too bad. Body Slam also has a 30% chance to paralysis, which is your mean move if you choose to use Flareon.

    On Bellsprout:
    -I'd just revamp his movepool section, as the current version makes it looked outclass by Venusaur
    -I wanted it in High because I didn't feel like Bulbasaur and Bellsprout should be TWO tiers difference. But since we dropped Bulbasaur a tier, I think Mid is ok.
  6. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    Bellsprout, Yellow Bulbasaur, Drowzee, Electabuzz, Flareon and Geodude will remain in Mid.


    Changes (open)
    Bellsprout
    • Revamp movepool section. The current one makes it appear outclassed by Bulbasaur and it should emphasize advantages it has over Bulbasaur a bit more (Growth, early powders). A boosting set with Body Slam for quick kills on weaker Pokemon is viable.
    • If Bulbasaur can abuse Lance's stupidity with his non-attacking Dragons, Bellsprout should be able to as well.
    • In the type section, it should make it clearer just how uncommon Dragon is (only used by Lance, and they aren't even fightable in the wild since Dratini and Dragonair are Safari Zone Pokemon).
    Drowzee
    • Dream Eater comes before Psychic. It's unreliable and 2 Confusions produce the same damage (without the recovery though), but a mention wouldn't hurt, even if it's more about emphasizing its unreliability.
    • In additional comments, the fact that Yellow Mr. Mime requires a trade for the common Clefairy is hardly a reason to use Drowzee instead.
    Electabuzz
    • Remove dual screens from movepool section. Add Thunder Wave instead.
    Flareon
    • Quick Attack should be given a bit more credit as a way of finishing off faster Pokemon like Alakazam, as well as oppoing Quick Attack users on random routes. Quick Attack shouldn't be overhyped though (Flareon isn't actually that slow).
    Geodude
    • Agatha match-up should make it clearer that Geodude's STABs OHKO everything she has.


    Post any errors you spot in this thread.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Moving on.

    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next Pokemon up will be:
    • Goldeen
    Goldeen (open)
    -Goldeen - Mid Tier
    -Availability: This can be obtained as soon as you get the Super Rod. RB players should head over to Route 23 and fish up a level 23 Seaking. This is slightly underleveled but it’s not unsalvageable. Yellow players can catch a level 30 Seaking north of Cerulean City, which requires no grinding at all. If preferred, Yellow players can also wait until they get Surf, which allows them to Surf to the Cerulean City water and fish up a Level 40 Seaking. Given that Water types really take off towards the end of the game, this is a viable choice too.
    -Stats: With 92 Attack and 80 Special, Seaking has the stats to hit reasonably hard from both sides of the spectrum. 68 Speed is a bit on the low side but it’s just enough to ensure that you are only outsped by the fastest opponents (e.g. Alakazam). Seaking has decent special bulk, although its physical bulk isn’t that great. This is not a serious issue against regular trainers though.
    -Movepool: Seaking’s main problem is that it has no good physical moves to use with its good Attack. It has to turn to Double-Edge or Horn Attack to deal with opposing Waters, although Horn Drill can be used to deal with them. Seaking gets BubbleBeam/Surf and Ice moves and this is what it will be using most of the time. Seaking has enough Special to make good use of them too.
    -Power: Seaking’s power is adequate when using Surf and Ice moves, and its Normal moves will allow it to beat most Water types one-on-one, if a bit slowly. Seaking is far from spectacular but as a Water type it gets the job done.
    -Type: Water proves to be very useful throughout the game, but is particularly great late-game thanks to good match-ups. Water covers a lot of the late-game Pokémon and with Ice moves for coverage it should be a helpful tool to get you through the end of the game. Water’s defensive weaknesses are usually a non-issue. Ice moves hit Grass types and Electric moves are rare and predictable for the most part.
    -Match-ups: Koga – Nothing to say here really. STAB Surf hits his specially frail Pokémon fairly well in RB, although a sweep is difficult. In Yellow, don’t expect a sweep either and just be content with taking down a Venonat or two.
    Sabrina – Like many Water types, Seaking isn’t that useful here. The large Special stats of her Pokémon soak up Surf fairly easily and Seaking is too slow to try sweeping with its Normal moves.
    Blaine – An excellent match-up. STAB Surf hits his Pokémon hard. Be careful around Arcanine’s Take Down though, as it hits you on your weaker side.
    Giovanni – Another good match-up. Surf covers everything bar Persian, who you may be better off leaving to someone else (you can beat it but it will leave you with a bit a damage). Yellow is a tougher battle because of the better move sets you are facing (e.g. Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking).
    Lorelei – Seaking is fairly worthless here. Double-Edge and Horn Attack aren’t going to be enough to sweep, and you may have to resort to Horn Drill if you really must use Seaking. You are always better off using something else though.
    Bruno – Onix dies fairly easily, and Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee have poor Specials and lose quickly to Surf. However, be prepared for Hitmonlee and Machamp hitting you with powerful physical attacks.
    Agatha – Golbat is weak to Ice, and Arbok isn’t that powerful. Leave the ghosts to something else. They’ll just outspeed and status you (one of the Gengar even has Mega Drain), and you can’t do much back
    Lance – With Surf and an Ice move, you cover everything except Gyarados, who should be dealt with by other means. Be careful around Dragonite especially; if it outspeeds you then you may eat a Thunder.
    Blue – With Surf and Ice Beam/Blizzard, you can hit Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard and Arcanine in RB, and Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales, and Flareon in Yellow.
    -Additional Comments: Goldeen is an outclassed fish and it has little merit over many of the other Water types in the game. However, it can still get the job done adequately if you are willing to give it a try. It brings the usual benefits of Water types to the team, isn’t too taxing on your TM stash, and is fairly easy to obtain. Overall, Seaking is a fine choice, although there is little reason to use it over its competition unless you think it looks cool or something.

    • Growlithe (Red)
    Growlithe (Red) (open)
    -Growlithe (Red) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: In RB, it is found on Route 8. It is underlevelled, although it can catch up using Dig's supereffective coverage against some of the other Pokemon on the route.
    -Stats: Arcanine has excellent stats. 110 Attack and 95 Speed make it a powerful physical attacker. It has 90 HP, 80 Defence and 80 Special, giving it good bulk and allowing it to use Fire Blast effectively.
    -Movepool: Growlithe’s movepool is small overall. Growlithe’s level up movepool isn’t the greatest, but it starts with Bite, which is ok. It also gets Flamethrower but it comes far too late and it isn’t worth delaying evolution. Arcanine gets Dig from TM, which you’ll need if you want Arcanine to reach its full potential. Body Slam is also helpful but not required (Double-Edge and Take Down are acceptable but inferior alternatives and although they aren’t great moves they are tolerable if you are using Dig as your main attack), and Fire Blast can also be used although it comes late.
    -Power: Arcanine is a powerhouse, blasting through almost all trainers with ridiculous ease. Pretty much everything is at least 2HKOed, and most regular trainer Pokémon are OHKOed. Of course, this is assuming it gets the moves it wants (Dig mainly). Without Dig it is much less powerful.
    -Type: Fire is certainly not the best STAB in the game but you probably won’t be using it throughout most of your playthrough anyway (Fire Blast comes late and Ember is nearly useless). Fire has some bad weaknesses too, although it should be said that with the right moves you'll often avoid taking damage anyway.
    -Match-ups: Erika - Ember is too weak to kill Victreebel and Vileplume quickly but Tangela (who has a terrible moveset) can be 2HKOed. Grass resistance also gives Arcanine a good shot at contributing here, and the fact that none of her Pokemon have Stun Spore in Red makes this easier.
    Koga – It can sweep through Koga just fine in Red with Dig. His team isn’t that great and even if you lose you’ll inflict enough damage to finish him off with something else.
    Sabrina – No type advantage but you actually do ok here because you have enough bulk to take a hit and you are hitting against the weaker Defence stat. A full sweep probably won't happen but you will contribute.
    Blaine – You can sweep with Dig. Ponyta and Growlithe are weak and you should have enough power to take down Rapidash and Arcanine
    Giovanni – You should do ok with Dig, and most of the team lacks super-effective moves (Dugtrio has Dig but it can be avoided with a Dig of your own, or a switch).
    Lorelei – You should stay away from her Water types, but Jynx is beatable.
    Bruno – You can beat the fighting types as long as you are at a good enough level since they don't like Fire Blast. You have Dig for Onix.
    Agatha – Dig smacks her Ghosts and Arbok around. You can beat Golbat on pure strength alone.
    Lance - This isn’t a particularly good match-up. Aerodactyl walls you and Gyarados has Hydro Pump. You might beat the Dragons as long as your level is good enough because they have bad move sets.
    Blue – Blastoise and Gyarados are the things to stay away from. Dig and Fire Blast have a few targets and this allows Arcanine to contribute.
    -Additional Comments: This is really hurt by its movepool. Arcanine has a lot of potential power thanks to its impressive stats, but it is highly TM dependent. Without Dig, it is far less useful, and although it is still usable it really isn't worth using over something else if it doesn't get the moves it wants. If it does get what it needs, however, it is an incredible asset because it hits like a truck and can gain the upper hand against a number of gyms leaders/elite 4 members.

    • Horsea
    Horsea (open)
    Horsea - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Mid-game with the Super Rod just below Fuchsia. It only comes at level 15. In Yellow it comes at higher levels at other places, and even as a Seadra, it just means slightly less grinding.
    -Stats: Horsea has all-round good stats, and a decent Special and Defense meaning it can take the odd hit or two. Speed is average, so it will not be outspeeding everything, but some things.
    -Movepool: Horsea's entire usable movepool consists of Surf, Ice Beam, Blizzard and Hydro Pump. You get Horsea at Fuchsia so Surf is a standard. Ice Beam is important for coverage and is obtainable at Celadon so it's not too far away.
    -Power: Horsea is quite strong because it can hit a lot of types with Super Effective moves with its Ice/Water coverage. Once it gets rolling, Horsea can OHKO many different pokemon comfortably.
    -Type: Water types have 2 weaknesses, Grass and Electric, neither of which are common. Resisting Fire, Ice and Water is quite useful, especially since many of the end-game trainers have those types on-hand.
    -Match-ups:
    Erika: It's unlikely you have Horsea at this point, but it's possible. Still, Horsea does not belong in this gym battle, unless it's a decent level and has Ice Beam. Ice Beam sweeps, but Vileplume is bulky enough to take a few and hit back with Petal Dance. Horsea will not like status.
    Koga: Sweeps fairly easily, but if you fail to KO a Pokemon, be prepared to be frustrated by Smokescreen/Minimize a little more. May take more than one hit to KO Weezing, depending on your level. Watch out for Self-Destruct.
    Sabrina: Seadra can do well here, provided you can outspeed, but it all depends as even with STAB Surf, you fail to OHKO the likes of Kadabra and Mr Mime. In addition, it's almost impossible to beat Alakazam even at a higher level, his Special is too high and Psybeam does too much damage. You could try using moves like Double-Edge and Body Slam for this battle, but it won't necessarily be worth wasting a TM on Seadra for this one battle, especially since her Attack stat isn't spectacular.
    Blaine: Surf sweeps Blaine even if you are underleveled. Seadra also won't be taking a lot of damage from anything Blaine can do, so even if you fail to OHKO Arcanine, you can be sure that he won't hit you very hard back. In Yellow, Ninetails may try to give you problems as it can take a couple of Surfs with it's high Special, but it will not be hitting you hard back.
    Giovanni: Surf will ensure that Horsea will OHKO every Pokemon on his team, due to their cumulative weaknesses and terrible Special stats.. Also viable moves Seadra can use in this battle to score OHKOs include Hydro Pump, Blizzard, Ice Beam, Bubblebeam and Water Gun. Even though Persian is neutral to Water-type moves, he will still be at Seadra's mercy here.
    Lorelei: This is a bad match-up here, because all her Pokemon resist Water and Ice (barring Jynx from the former). You resist it too, but there's nothing of value gained here, save your PP for later.
    Bruno: Clean sweep to say the least, Surf should take out pretty much anything on his team. There's not much his Pokemon can respond with in return, even Thunderpunch off Hitmonchan will be pathetic at best.
    Agatha: Agatha isn't as easy as she looks. Gengar and Haunter can take a few Surfs to take down and can whittle you away with Confuse Ray and Night Shade. It really comes down to your level versus theirs, but you won't be hitting them efficiently. Golbat is easy enough, going down to Ice Beam, but beware paralysis from Arbok's Glare.
    Lance: Water types always do well against Lance, and this is no exception. Surf nails Aerodactyl, while Ice Beam takes out Dragonair and Dragonite. Gyarados is neutral to all of your attacks, and while it is better to let an Electric-type handle it, it just means Seadra will be weakened.
    Rival: Your rival will be difficult under any circumstance, certain pokemon can be beaten much easier than others. Rhydon, Charizard and Arcanine fall to Surf, Pidgeot, Venasaur and Exeggutor lose to Ice Beam. And it is likely you will lose out to the likes of Alakazam and Jolteon, while Gyarados and Blastoise will hit you hard with their powerful normal moves. It's worse for Seadra in Yellow as now Gary has an Electric-type Pokemon which Seadra will have trouble getting past.
    Additional comments: While Horsea does have some good points, overall you will find yourself wishing you had chosen Staryu instead, as Staryu's superior stats, improved movepool and superior typing make it much easier to use. Being outclassed doesn't mean Horsea isn't great though, as it holds its own quite well throughout the game and you get it around the time you get Surf which is a huge plus. Overall a decent Pokemon, shame she can barely touch other Water types.

    • Kabuto
    Kabuto (open)
    -Kabuto - Mid Tier
    -Availability: It is obtained from the Dome Fossil. You can obtain it as soon as you get Surf. It comes at level 30 and starts off a bit slowly. However, Kabuto catches up quickly thanks to being able to grind easily at the Pokémon Mansion. It evolves at level 40, which doesn’t actually take that long from the level that you obtain it.
    -Stats: Although Kabuto isn’t particularly powerful stat wise, Kabutops has good stats overall. 115 Attack is nothing to scoff at. 70 Special is not that bad for the purposes of Surf, 80 Speed is fast enough for in-game, and it also has decent 60/105/80 defences.
    -Movepool: It has a small movepool but it gets everything it needs without any TM support. Slash is awesome from 115 Attack, and Surf from 70 Special is an acceptable secondary attack. It also gets Submission, Ice Beam and Blizzard but it does not need any of these to be successful. The main downside is its lack of physical STAB, but Slash is a good alternative.
    -Power: Kabuto is mediocre but you don’t have to put up with it for long. When it evolves, Kabutops becomes a great sweeper. Slash can make short work of many teams thanks to its high Attack and decent Speed. Surf deals with the Rock types that resist it.
    -Type: STAB on Water is not a bad thing to have in this game, especially because it deals with all of the Slash-resisting Rock types. From a defensive standpoint, Rock/Water has some interesting resistances. Normal resistance is so useful, especially because many things in the game are limited to STAB + Normal coverage. Kabutops flat-out walls some Pokémon, especially Fire and Flying types. Of course, Rock/Water has some annoying weaknesses too (especially Grass), so you need to be careful when these types pop up in important battles (using something else is safer but Kabutops can still win on power alone).
    -Match-ups: Sabrina – Slash is brutal against her. At this point you should be able to out-speed and sweep her entire team.
    Blaine – You can’t possibly lose here unless you get extremely unlucky. You wall his whole team completely and you can hit them with Surf.
    Giovanni – You can sweep with Surf (Slash is fine for Persian), but look out for Thunder and Earthquake in Yellow.
    Lorelei – Aside from Jynx, her team is rather bulky. Slash hits everything but a full sweep is asking a lot of Kabutops. Its lack of Rock Slide is really noticable here.
    Bruno – Onix is beaten with Surf. You should probably stay away from Hitmonlee and Machamp (you can beat them but their Fighting attacks are brutal. Hitmonchan is too weak to be that much of an issue unless you get surprised by Counter!
    Agatha – This is a bit tricky. You should beat Golbat and Arbok but the Ghosts are immune to Slash and can take Surf easily. One of them has Mega Drain. Stay away from the Ghosts.
    Lance – You are good to go in RB because you wall Aerodactyl and all of the Dragons. Gyarados can leave a bit of a dent with Hydro Pump though. This is harder in Yellow where you have to deal with Thunderbolt and Thunder. Aerodactyl still can’t touch you and the Ice Beam/BubbleBeam Dragonair is beatable.
    Blue – You actually do really well against Blue. You can take on Pidgeot, Alakazam (Slash destroys it), Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Ninetales and Flareon. The Water types are doable, as is Sandslash (Earthquake is powerful against it though).
    -Additional Comments: This comes a bit late and starts off a bit weak, but Kabutops is a powerful team member with good stats and a small but precise movepool that has strong match-ups against many of the important trainers that it will likely face during its time on your team. You could do a lot worse.

    • Magikarp
    Magikarp (open)
    Magikarp - Mid Tier
    -Availability: You can buy it almost for free (500 Poke, to be precise) after the first time, but at level 5. It evolves at level 20.
    -Stats: As a Magikarp, it's got nothing going for it, except for okay Speed. Once it evolves, all of its stats (minus Speed) grow from pathetic to great.
    -Movepool: As a Magikarp, it starts out with the useless Splash, and can't properly defend itself until it grows to level 15 and learns Tackle. Once it's a Gyarados, however, it gets the more powerful Bite, and you can teach it BubbleBeam via TM11. BubbleBeam can later by upgraded to Surf or Hydro Pump, where as Bite can be upgraded to Body Slam or Strength. It can also learn Thunderbolt and Ice Beam by TM, and Dragon Rage and Hyper Beam through level up.
    -Power: For the first 15 levels, it won't be able to beat even a Caterpie 1-on-1. After it evolves, it can occasionally take on entire Routes by itself.
    -Type: Water's great when you get it, but it can't use any Water-type moves when you get it. When it evolves, its weakness to Electric becomes more amplified, but it loses its weakness to Grass and gains an immunity to Ground. Its newfound weaknesses to Rock isn't too bad, because Rock-types are washed away by Water moves.
    -Match-ups: Because of how pathetic it is as a Magikarp, all of the following are assuming it's a Gyarados.
    --Misty: High Attack and resistance to Water mean that Misty's Pokemon are reliably beaten; however, it's quite unlikely that you'll have evolved Magikarp by the time you fight her.
    --Lt. Surge: As Gyarados suffers a double weakness to Electric, Raichu's Thunderbolt will OHKO Gyarados.
    --Erika: At this point of the game you can give Gyarados the Ice Beam TM, which allows it take out Grass Pokemon easily. Even without Ice Beam, Bite is powerful enough to take out her Pokemon besides Tangela. Tangela shouldn't be a problem in RB due to being underleveled and its poor moveset, but can be troublesome for non-Ice Beam Gyarados in Yellow version.
    --Koga: Surf hits his Pokemon's weaker Special, often KOing in 2 hits.
    --Sabrina: Bite/Body Slam/other Normal attack squishes her fragile Psychic-types.
    --Blaine: Gyarados resists Fire, and his STAB Water moves make short work of Blaine.
    --Giovanni: Gyarados is immune to Ground, and Surf hits his entire team for Super Effective damage except for Persian. Keep in mind in Pokemon Yellow, his Nidoqueen and Nidoking know Thunder.
    --Lorelei: If Gyarados was give the Thunderbolt TM he can do serious damage to her Pokemon, but without it he will struggle due to Lorelei's Pokemon having good Physical Bulk and a resistance to Water.
    --Bruno: His 2 Onix are turned to rubble by (insert Water-type attack here), and Hi Jump Kick/Submission is resisted by Gyarados's Flying secondary typing.
    --Agatha: Golbat and Arbok are easily beaten, but her Ghosts are immune to Gyarados's Physical Moves and have the bulk to take Surf. Don't use it against her unless you like seeing your sea serpent get statused.
    --Lance: Aerodactyl is weak to Water, but his other Pokemon all resist it. If Gyarados was taught Thunderbolt he can take out Lance's Gyarados and if Gyarados was taught Ice Beam/Blizzard, it can take out Lance's Dragons. In Yellow, keep in mind that one of his Dragonair and Dragonite know Thunderbolt and Thunder, respectively.
    -Additional Comments: As shown above, Gyarados is awesome, but if you want to use it, you'll have to bear with the completely useless Magikarp for 15 long levels, due to its experience curve (Slow). Another problem is that Gyarados is TM dependent as it a lot of its sweeping potential relies on BoltBeam coverage. Once it evolves and has the right coverage, however, it becomes incredibly powerful and self-sufficient.

    • Magnemite
    Magnemite (open)
    -Magnemite - Mid Tier
    -Availability: In RB, you can find it in the Power Plant. Wild Magnemite are at a rather low level, but Magneton can be caught at up to level 35 so they require less catch-up time. In Yellow it arrives as early as Route 10 (outside the Power Plant). It will require a bit of grinding (it is level 22 at its highest) but it isn't too hard for it to catch up.
    -Stats: Magnemite and Magneton have high Special stats, with Magneton carrying up to 120 Special. This is supported by good 50/95/120 bulk. Magnemite is a tad slow (45 Speed) but Magneton is just fast enough to work well (70 Speed).
    -Movepool: Magneton has a terrible level-up movepool. In fact, you absolutely NEED to give this Thunderbolt for it to be worthwhile. If not, you’ll be using Thundershock for a while until you get the unreliable Thunder. Of course, since Magnemite is probably going to be the only Electric type on the team it only has to compete for Thunderbolt with non-Electrics looking for additional coverage, so Magnemite will likely receive this move just fine.
    -Power: Magneton’s Thunderbolt allows it to OHKO almost anything that doesn’t resist it. Magneton will power through many trainers with ease. However, due to mono-Electric coverage it struggles against Ground types (particularly Rock/Ground types), Grass types and opposing Electric types (the latter 2 groups can survive Thunderbolt and hit back with paralysis).
    -Type: Electric gives plenty of coverage, and is particularly powerful against the Water types that appear late game, although the things that resist it appear frequently throughout the game too, lowering its power a bit. Electric isn’t particularly useful defensively. Flying resistance is unnecessary because all the birds are OHKOed, and Electric resistance isn’t helpful because opposing Electric types resist your main attack anyway.
    -Match-ups: Erika – You don’t do well here. Her Pokémon take Thunderbolt and hit back with whatever they want.
    Koga – RB Koga is a joke. Thunderbolt is strong enough to sweep him. In Yellow, Magneton really benefits from having a high Special, which allows it to take Psychic.
    Sabrina – You have 120 Special so you can take a few hits. Thunder Wave is very useful here, so even if you faint you can at least slow down Alakazam for your teammates.
    Blaine – No type advantage, but you can win if you have a sufficient level. This is notably easier in RB due to the worse team he has there.
    Giovanni – You are quite hopeless here. In Yellow you can at least beat Persian, but everything else walls you.
    Lorelei – This is a great match-up because Thunderbolt eats most of her team alive. It is evenly matched with Jynx, but watch out for Lovely Kiss in Yellow.
    Bruno – You should beat his fighting types, but you should use something else for Onix.
    Agatha – Golbat and Arbok should not be a problem to beat. Gengar and Haunter may outspeed and try to confuse and sleep you though.
    Lance – You beat Gyarados and Aerodactyl. Dragonair resists Thunderbolt though you may be able to beat them just because they suck so much. Dragonite is beatable unless you have been weakened.
    Blue – You beat Pidgeot, Gyarados, Charizard, Blastoise, Cloyster and Vaporeon, and you should be able to take on Alakazam, Arcanine and Ninetales too.
    -Additional Comments: Magneton packs incredible power. However, it is severely let down by its necessity for Thunderbolt. If you have it reserved for something else then Magneton is less useful. It also requires support to get around anything that resists Thunderbolt, lowering its killing potential. If you can get around these issues then it is a good choice that will contribute to beating the game efficiently.


    Sorry about the water heavy round again, but that's just how they happen to be ordered. Discuss whichever ones you wish.
  7. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,041
    Not a whole lot is happening here, prolly because these seem fine where they are. The only one I'd kinda question is Horsea, since it's so underleveled. I have no experience with it but I do know how good Water is at that point.

    Some things that I found odd:

    Horsea's stats are fairly okay for an unevolved Pokemon, but idk if I'd call them good. Maybe well-rounded. Did the author mean Seadra? Anyway, they don't strike me as anything in particular other than average.

    If Weezing uses Selfdestruct, the battle is over. You win. No need to do anything fancy unless you really really want that EXP.
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    Yeah I was thinking of just moving on, but it's difficult for me to do anything when no-one responds since I have no idea if it's because everybody is ok with the analyses or if everyone is just bored with the project at the moment...

    Anyway, I support Horsea in Mid. Seadra's stats are actually better than most of the other Mid tier water types (95 Special and Defence, and 85 Speed) and it definitely shouldn't be lower than Goldeen. However, I do have a few issues with the analysis itself.

    I particularly dislike the availability section because it talks about level 15 Horsea in RB when you can fish up a level 23 Seadra on Route 23 at the exact same time. It also fails to mention being able to catch level 39 Seadra in Pokemon Red in the Seafoam Islands (4% encounter rate, but if that's too low you can catch level 30+ Horsea) which is later but I'm sure many would argue that waiting a bit longer for Seadra is better. The analysis at least mentions catching higher-leveled Seadra in Yellow, but it isn't specific and I think just saying "it just means slightly less grinding" is a bit dismissive of the advantage. It's actually a big deal.

    In stats it says "Speed is average, so it will not be outspeeding everything, but some things", which is misleading. I would think that Seadra should be outspeeding almost everything given stat exp. and level advantage.

    Movepool should emphasize more clearly that it is stricty limited to Water/Ice and that its Attack is too low to use any of the Normal moves it gets effectively. This is probably what stops it from being in High (because really, Seadra is just a generic Water-type without the wide movepool/boosted experience/Ice STAB seen in the High tier late-game Water-types).

    So yeah, I'd personally prefer to leave Horsea in Mid, but revamp the analysis. If anyone else wants to weigh in though, feel free.

    Oh, and for those who care, I recently updated the OP to make it a bit more pleasent to look at (added sprites and put a line between each analysis, which I think makes them a bit easier to read. I'm also partway through changing the format of each analysis to make them look the same (at the moment, some use bolding, some use hyphens in different ways, etc.) which I hope will make it look even better. I'll finish it off later.
  9. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,453
    I'd support knocking Horsea down to Low.

    Horsea comes fairly late - multiple other Water-type Pokémon, like Squirtle and Magikarp, are available before access to Horsea. In addition, Seadra lacks much over its peers to warrant use on a later team - maybe Agility, but that's it, and in-game it's not the best. It's really not the best on a team, with so many other options ready to beat it down. Definitely supporting Low.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    "--Erika: At this point of the game you can give Gyarados the Ice Beam TM, which allows it take out Grass Pokemon easily. Even without Ice Beam, Bite is powerful enough to take out her Pokemon besides Tangela. Tangela shouldn't be a problem in RB due to being underleveled and its poor moveset, but can be troublesome for non-Ice Beam Gyarados in Yellow version."

    Ok I wrote that but that looks like a run-on sentence, I think it'd look better like this.

    Erika: Gyarados can work his way through this gym by the sheer force of Bite and Dragon Rage, but has to watch out for status. Alternatively, you could teach Gyarados the Ice Beam TM and sweep the entire gym in a flash.
  11. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022

    Cool. I'll add that later.
    Seadra isn't that late considering it can be obtained before the 5th gym. Besides, Squirtle, Magikarp and Vaporeon (and I think Lapras if you choose to go to the Silph Co. building early) are the only water types that appear before Horsea/Seadra. These Pokemon have equal or worse availability compared to Seadra:
    • Cloyster
    • Dewgong
    • Golduck
    • Kabutops
    • Omastar
    • Poliwrath
    • Seaking
    • Starmie
    • Slowbro
    • Tentacool
    Could you please be more specific about why you think Horsea is Low? Saying that it "lacks much over its peers to warrant use on a later team" is pretty much just you comparing Horsea to other Water types which is not the way we tier things. Judge things on their own merits.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    I think Seadra's only real downfall is NEEDING Ice Beam (or possibly Blizzard), since it doesn't get Ice moves naturally (unlike Dewgong or Shelder), and it has less options than Starmie (who gets T-bolt / Psychic). It also doesn't evolve by water stone so you have to make the wait to get the stats (if you don't wait to catch the fully evolved version).

    I think its Speed definitely makes it outclass a Pokemon like Slowbro though... Mid is a good fit I think.
  13. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    But Seadra is not neutral to Fire unlike these two. However, due the EXP boost in Dewgong and it's high HP, unlike Seadra which has pathetic HP, around the same of Cloyster's, Dewgong is going to do it fine too.

    Against Bruno and Lance, Agility shines(in case of Bruno, Agility against the 1st Dragonair)
  14. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    1,453
    I'll elaborate a bit on why Horsea should be Low.

    Horsea's line lacks much power regarding Attack as compared to other Water-types, such as Gyarados and Cloyster. This means it's movepool is very limited, mainly to Water and Ice types. Additionally, one of the competition it faces is Dewgong. While not as strong against Fire-types, Dewgong gains STAB on it's Ice attacks, meaning it has a higher power boost over Seadra.

    That's about it, along with my argument from my first post.
  15. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Messages:
    8,242
    While I do think some comparison should be taken into account in tiering, Dewgong is irrelevant because we're ranking Seadra for Mid-tier-- Dewgong is High tier, almost top tier. Seadra and Cloyster are very similar in overall availability and performance.

    Gyarados is a bit superior to both overall due to its early availability and... well... just outright performing better than either in almost every aspect, but its difficulty in initial babying is enough to hold it back in the eyes of most players involved in the project.

    Honestly though, especially in the late game, Normal attacks--especially lacking STAB--are only so useful. Even Gyarados will rarely be clicking "Body Slam" or "Strength" against the elite 4.
  16. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I'm leaving all of these Pokemon in Mid. Horsea isn't dropping. I might have considered a drop if there was a massive wave of users calling for it but there wasn't so I'm leaving it in Mid.

    Changes (open)
    Horsea
    • Availability needs more info. Level 23 Seadra is better than level 15 Horsea, and the level 30+ Horsea/level 39 Seadra of the Seafoam Islands in Red need mentions too. More info on Yellow Seadra wouldn't hurt either, and it shouldn't be so dismissive about the advantage of higher level captures.
    • In the stats section, "Horsea has all-round good stats" is a bit ambiguous, and it shouldn't undersell its Speed as much. Seadra ties with Golduck for having the highest Speed stat of all the Waters in Mid, and is also second in Special (behind Gyarados). RBY Seadra is like Kingdra, except with lower Attack and HP (and pure Water instead of Water/Dragon. Basically, more info is needed, and the section should stat the actual values of the stats.
    • Movepool should emphasize more clearly that it is limited to Water/Ice. Its Attack is too low to use any of its Normal moves.
    • For the Koga match-up, Selfdestruct doesn't really need a mention. Unless Seadra is your last Pokemon and is weakened, Selfdestruct means that you win the battle.
    • Analysis should probably explain why Seadra isn't in High tier, which would be because it is basically a plain Water type without anything special to go along with it, like Goldeen. It's movepool is limited, it doesn't get boosted experience, it lacks a secondary STAB, etc. It's good on its own terms, but it isn't particularly spectacular and there isn't much reason to use it over any of the High tier Waters.


    I'll add Hemp Man's thing too.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Next round. Dunno how much activity I'll get this time but we'll see.

    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next Pokemon up will be:
    • Mankey
    Mankey (open)
    Mankey (unavailable in Blue) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: In Yellow, you can find it as early as Route 22, while in Red, you'll have to wait until Route 5, where it can be found at levels 10, 12, 14, and 16. It evolves at level 28, which is rather late for a Pokemon that only evolves once.
    -Stats: Standard combination of good Speed and Attack, even though it's somewhat lacking for the latter. Admittedly, its Speed could be considered overkill, considering the fact that Karate Chop, its main move, crits all of the time.
    -Movepool: In terms of level-up moves, it doesn't really gain much of note outside of Low Kick (Yellow only) and Karate Chop. For TMs, it greatly appreciates Dig to hit Poison-types. It's also one of the few Pokemon that can learn and make good use of Rock Slide. Believe it or not, Submission, its best STAB, is actually not as good as you might think, because despite the fact that it nabs several KOes Karate Chop can't, its 80% accuracy combined with its 1/3 recoil.
    -Power: Mankey's between a rock and a hard place here, as unless it's using Submission (which makes its frailty even more noticable), its neutral hits just barely miss out on OHKOing its opponents, even after evolving. This holds true for the entire game.
    -Type: Fighting is resisted by the majority of Pokemon in the game, and the lack of a secondary type doesn't exactly help it in that regard.
    -Match-ups:
    --Brock: He is swept, thanks to Low Kick.
    --Misty: Mankey's just too frail to stand up to Starmie.
    --Lt. Surge: Victory or loss agaist Lt. Surge in Red depends on whether you taught Mankey Dig or not. However, in Yellow, Raichu outspeeds Mankey and OHKOes it.
    --Erika: Primeape can beat either Vileplume or Victreebel, but not both. It beats Tangela no matter what.
    --Koga: In Red, all of his Pokemon are able to stomach a Dig and strike back with Sludge or Selfdestruct, and in Yellow, his entire team knows Psychic.
    --Sabrina: Primeape's fast enough to get the first swing in, but can't OHKO any of her Pokemon. It then gets OHKOed with Psybeam or Psychic. At least it can beat Mr. Mime and Venomoth.
    --Blaine: Fire Blast and Take Down both hurt, but if Primeape knows Dig (which it should if you're using it), it can beat all of his Pokemon, save for Arcanine.
    --Giovanni: All of his Pokemon (except for Persian) can withstand a Submission and strike back with Earthquake/Thunder/Body Slam.
    --Lorelei: Dewgong will spam Rest even if it's at full health because it's a Psychic-type move, allowing Primeape to beat it easily. The same applies for Slowbro and Amnesia, but it's easily more durable, taking as much damage from Karate Chop as a Super Potion heals, leading to a stalemate. It can also beat Jynx and Cloyster, but has trouble with Lapras.
    --Bruno: This is an uncommon scenario: one where Hitmonchan is actually threatening. The reason? Counter. If you use any attacking move not called Rock Slide or Dig on Hitmonchan, it can Counter it and most likely KO Primeape. Hitmonlee's and Machamp's attacks also hurt.
    --Agatha: This battle is a lost cause if Primeape doesn't know Dig, but with Dig, she is swept, save for Golbat, who can be crushed by Rock Slide.
    --Lance: In Red, his Dragonair and Dragonite know non-damaging Psychic-type attacks, allowing Primeape to beat them without taking any damage. In Yellow, however, Lance's entire team becomes much more threatening, and Primeape can only beat the Dragonair.
    --Rival: Alakazam and the starter always win against Primeape, while the rest of his team has varying levels of easiness (Gyarados = no dice, Pidgeot, Ninetales, Cloyster, and Sandslash are risky but doable, Rhydon and Exeggutor don't stand much of a chance).
    -Additional Comments: As far as Fighting-types go, Mankey is adequate. It's dependent on Dig and doesn't last long when it isn't hitting its targets super effectively, but if given Dig and Rock Slide it can hold its own for a good portion of the game. It also has one of the best match-ups against Brock in Yellow.

    • Meowth
    Meowth (open)
    -Meowth (Blue only) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: The Scratch Cat Pokemon can be seen in the routes bordering Saffron City, the earliest of which being Routes 5 and 6. Out of all the Pokemon in those routes, approximately one fourth of them are Meowth, their levels ranging from 10 to 16. Meowth tend to evolve when they reach level 28.
    -Stats: When looking at Meowth's stats, its Speed is far above the rest, being double any of its other stats, which are in the range of usability offensively, but leaves something to be desired defensively. Its evolution, Persian, follows this trend with all of its stats being noticeably higher than Meowth's, but keeping the theme of blazing speed and its other stats being average.
    -Movepool: All Meowth level 12 or higher have Bite, a move with solid base power and the potential to flinch its target, in their arsenal. Meowth are also known for using Pay Day, a move which has the same power as Scratch but has the added effect of getting extra money at the end of battles. However, the sheer amount of trainers in the game means that you won't need it and will find it more of a hindrance than anything else. While Persian does eventually learn Slash, it won't do so until level 53, by which time you should have beaten the game.
    Being a Normal-type, Meowth and Persian have a usable TM movepool, though not as impressive as some of its fellow Normal-types. It has access to Bubblebeam and Thunderbolt, the former being useful against the Ground-types in Rock Tunnel and the latter being helpful for the Bird Keepers and Swimmers that become quite common after Pokemon Tower (as well as being ironic). However, both of those TMs are exclusive, so if you're also using (or plan to use) an Electric-type or a (non-Seafoam Islands) Water-type in addition to Meowth, the Scratch Cat most likely won't be able to use either of those moves. Meowth can also learn Water Gun, but it is not recommended as it fails to OHKO anything that's even 4x weak to it. As with several Pokemon, Meowth can be taught Body Slam, but the fact that it has Bite in its arsenal when you get it means Meowth benefits less from it than a teammate such as Ivysaur would.
    -Power: Bite allows Meowth to be a reliable, albeit frail, attacker once it catches up, and it's not defenseless before it catches up. Its previously mentioned frailty can be a problem, though. It can't do much in Pokemon Tower, for obvious reasons, but it does quite well in Routes 13 and 14 as well as the water Routes if it is taught Thunderbolt. Overall, Persian doesn't usually disappoint, but at the same time its performance doesn't regularly blow people away.
    -Type: Having a Normal typing can be useful in the early-game, as most Pokemon typically have only Normal-type damaging moves in their arsenal at that point in the game. However, Meowth comes a bit late to the party, because by that point in the game the Bubblebeam and Dig TMs are available, and Pokemon who learn STAB my means of leveling up starts to learn those moves at the point Meowth becomes available. After that, Normal STAB becomes less and less useful due to it having absolutely no super effective coverage, despite having impressive neutral coverage. This is where secondary typings would come in handy, but Persian doesn't have one, hampering its potential usefulness.
    -Match-ups:
    --Lt. Surge: Due to Meowth's frailty, the chance of it taking more than one Thunderbolt is almost null.
    --Erika: Persian can beat Victreebel one-on-one, but don't expect it to beat Vileplume afterward.
    --Koga: Thanks to Koffing and Weezing being quite sturdy physically, it should come as no surprise that Persian has trouble against Koga if it doesn't have Thunderbolt.
    --Sabrina: Persian can take her Alakazam on by itself and come on top in most cases. It also does well against her other Pokemon, but don't expect it to beat her by itself.
    --Blaine: Unlike Persian, Blaine's Arcanine has usable bulk and a very threatening (to those who don't resist it, that is) STAB, proving that dogs normally defeat cats in one-on-one fights. Thankfully for Persian, it's faster than Rapidash, meaning that it has less to worry from Fire Spin than a Pokemon like Nidoqueen would.
    --Giovanni: There's no way Persian's getting past his Rhydon without Bubblebeam. Dugtrio can be defeated, but it'll take a large chunk of Persian's health in the process, and the Nidos do similarly.
    --Lorelei: Without Thunderbolt, Persian can beat Dewgong and Jynx, but nothing else, mainly due to the rest of her team having impressive physical bulk. If Thunderbolt is taken into account, Cloyster can be added to the above list.
    --Bruno: Onix can take any of Persian's moves not called Bubblebeam, Hitmonchan can Counter any Normal-type assault from Persian back at it, and Bruno's other Pokemon know Fighting-type moves.
    --Agatha: Persian can't do much of anything to her Ghost-types, the most threatening members of her team, but Golbat and Arbok are manageable. Just keep in mind Arbok can Wrap Persian into oblivion if Persian gets paralyzed.
    --Lance: Persian might be able to take Gyarados's Hyper Beam or Hydro Pump and fry it with 2 consecutive Thunderbolts (if it has the move), but that's the best Persian can do for this fight.
    --Rival: Unlike Sabrina's, the Champion's Alakazam beats Persian more often than the other way around, thanks to its level advantage as well as it actually knowing Psychic. The Champion's Gyarados, just like Lance's, is beaten provided Persian knows Thunderbolt. Everything else on his team that Persian can take down can also be defeated by a number of other Pokemon.​
    -Additional Comments: Meowth can fend for itself shortly after being caught, but the problem with it (and its evolution) is that outside of its Speed, none of its stats are impressive, despite none of them being truly bad, with the possible exception of Defense (which is a bit mediocre). This causes it to have a consistently average performance. Its movepool can be another problem, as its level-up movepool outside of an early Bite and a too-late Slash is quite scarce. This causes Meowth to be a bit high-maintenance at times, but not necessarily useless if left to its own devices.





    • Oddish
    Oddish (open)
    -Oddish - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Oddish is exclusive to Red and Yellow. It is first found north of Cerulean City at levels 12-14. It is slightly underleveled, but thankfully there are a few Hikers on the way to Bill’s house that provide easy experience for Oddish so it isn’t too difficult for it to catch up.
    -Stats: Oddish and family have nice stats overall, with Special being its strongest stat. It peaks at 100 as Vileplume, and Oddish starts with 75 Special which is very good for an unevolved Pokémon. This is supported by Vileplume’s 75 HP and 85 Defence, and even its Attack is solid (80). However, Oddish is horribly slow. Before evolving into Vileplume it’ll find itself going last quite often. Vileplume’s 50 Speed is still below average but it’s just enough to allow it to go first in many battles when accounting for stat experience and level differences. Faster species will still outspeed it however.
    -Movepool: This is what lets Oddish down significantly. Compared to its fellow early-game Grass types, it really has little to go on. It starts with the weak Absorb, although the HP recovery is helpful against Grass-weak opponents. For a while, its whole moveset will consist of Absorb, Cut and Acid which prevents it from powering through many opponents. It does get the status powders early on however, which at least lets it beat things more safely. Vileplume’s strongest STAB is Petal Dance, but with a modest 70 Base Power it isn’t particularly spectacular. Furthermore, it has unfavourable side effects and it can only learn it as Oddish or Gloom, so you can’t evolve Gloom right away unless you are willing to give up Petal Dance (not recommended). From TMs, it gets Mega Drain which is a good replacement for Absorb. It also gets Swords Dance and Body Slam (Body Slam can only be learnt by Vileplume, not Oddish or Gloom).
    -Power: The issue isn’t so much that it can’t beat things. The problem is that it can’t beat things quickly. It is using moves with low base power and mainly gets around opponents by slowly whittling away their health rather than blasting through them. This isn’t ideal in an efficient playthrough. Still, the fact is that Oddish does beat things in the end.
    -Type: Grass is a very good type early on, and this is probably the main reason why you would use Oddish. The Water, Grass and Electric resistances are very useful, and super-effective hits on Water, Rock and Ground are great. Grass/Poison has a few weaknesses, including Psychic, Bug, Flying, Fire and Ice, so Oddish will need some support.
    -Match-ups: Misty: Oddish wins. Absorb actually does pathetic damage to Starmie thanks to its high Special but Oddish beats it in the end.
    Lt. Surge: Gloom’s Electric resistance and nice bulk allow it to do great here too. His Pokémon can’t really do that much to you, although it may need help in Yellow if Raichu selects Mega Kick and Mega Punch repeatedly.
    Erika – There are better choices for this battle. Gloom’s Acid is super-effective against Tangela at least, but Gloom is an inefficient choice for this battle and there is no reason to use it here over something else.
    Koga – You can’t do much to his Poison types in RB and Gloom/Vileplume will be worn down, although you at least carry an immunity to poison status. You’re even worse in Yellow since you’ll be hit with Psychic attacks.
    Sabrina – This is even worse than Koga, and using Vileplume here is dumb.
    Blaine – You’re weak to Fire and his Pokémon resist Grass. Use something else.
    Giovanni – Vileplume gets to have a bit of a comeback here after bad match-ups in the last few gyms. It destroys Dugtrio, Rhyhorn and Rhydon, and it can beat Nidoqueen and Nidoking one-on-one. Persian’s Slash might sting, but overall you can do well.
    Lorelei – The Ice weakness limits you, and Slowbro has Psychic in Yellow. It can beat Slowbro in RB easily but Vileplume isn’t a good choice for this battle.
    Bruno – You beat Onix, and the fighting types have poor Specials (and you even resist Fighting moves). Vileplume does very well against Bruno.
    Agatha – Agatha isn’t really threatening overall but there are so many better choices for Agatha than Vileplume. Vileplume’s typing and movepool is just all wrong for this battle!
    Lance – His dragon’s resist Grass. In Yellow, the threat of receiving an Ice attack is present too. Aerodactyl is beatable in RB unless you get haxed, but it has Fly in Yellow. Gyarados’s Hyper Beam will leave a mark but you resist Hydro Pump at least. If it acts dumb then you can beat it.
    Blue – Here’s a list of Pokémon you can beat easily: Rhydon, Exeggutor, Sandslash and Magneton. There are other match-ups that you can win with a bit of luck/patience, including the water types (they have Ice moves), Jolteon (it has 4x effective Pin Missile), Gyarados (basically the same as Lance’s) and Venusaur (you wall it although you don’t really do a lot back).
    -Additional Comments: Oddish makes it into Mid because its typing gives it great match-ups early on. Grass is a great offensive type before you reach Lavender Town and Oddish will put in a lot of work along the way. Being able to beat the first 2 gym leaders you encounter after you catch it is sweet too. However, it is important to note that Bellsprout and Bulbasaur completely outclass Oddish thanks to better stat distributions and movepools. Oddish is only recommended if you are playing Red and didn’t pick Bulbasaur. In Yellow, you should just use one of the other Grass types as they do the same job much better. Still, if you absolutely insist on picking Oddish over Bellsprout and Bulbasaur then it is still a useful choice. Just make sure to give it plenty of support because it’s going to need it.

    • Pikachu (RB)
    Pikachu (RB) (open)
    -Pikachu (RB) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: It can be caught as early as Viridian Forest, although it is at a low level and will require grinding to catch-up. It evolves with the Thunderstone, which you can obtain at Celadon City. Feel free to do so as soon as possible because Pikachu doesn’t have anything to wait for.
    -Stats: Speed is its main claim to fame. Before it evolves its stats are otherwise poor overall, but Raichu has 90 Attack and Special. This gives it good power from both ends and allows it to take special attacks well. It still has poor physical tanking abilities though.
    -Movepool: ThunderShock from the start is useful for the early game birds, and Thunder Wave is always useful, but otherwise Pikachu’s level-up movepool is nothing special. From TMs, Pikachu gets the powerful Thunderbolt, as well as Seismic Toss, Body Slam/Mega Punch, and the unnecessary Submission. It can achieve nice coverage but requires TMs to do so.
    -Power: Pikachu’s power is adequate for the time you have it. It will start to lag a bit, but you’ll be able to evolve just in the nick of time, where Raichu will take over with its superior stats. Raichu’s power will not have your jaw dropping but it will certainly pull its weight.
    -Type: Electric has good coverage, although it should be said that Grass and Ground types are common and Raichu isn’t really able to cover these with the rest of its movepool. Electric has few weaknesses but few resistances. There isn’t really much else to say otherwise.
    -Match-ups: Brock – You suck here. The best you can do is support with Growl, but otherwise you are useless.
    Misty – Despite the type advantage you don’t get a free ride here simply because Starmie is so strong. You can do ok here though. Starmie can be beaten if Misty is stupid (which she often is) and of course Staryu loses to you.
    Lt. Surge – Mirror match! You can actually do ok because his Pokémon don’t really have any powerful moves that you don’t resist, especially if you gave it Body Slam.
    Erika – You should be fully evolved by now but it isn’t a good idea to use Raichu here. Body Slam isn’t enough to stop you from getting statused.
    Koga – Thunderbolt is potent against his Pokémon but Raichu won’t enjoy the physical assaults coming back at it. Koffing is a joke though so...
    Sabrina – If you have Body Slam and are at a good level then you can do well here. Thunder Wave is useful for paralysing Alakazam.
    Blaine – Type-wise there isn’t much to say but Growlithe and Ponyta are rubbish. It can take on the others too.
    Giovanni – This isn’t a good match-up, but at the same time Dugtrio is the only thing with a Ground move not called Fissure. With Body Slam you can at least take on Dugtrio (switch out of Dig), Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Let something else take on Rhyhorn and Rhydon.
    Lorelei – This is a great match-up. Thunderbolt nails everything except Jynx, who will not enjoy Body Slam.
    Bruno – Onix should be left to something else. The Hitmons and Machamp can be beat with Thunderbolt, but have a back-up just in case Machamp survives and kills you with a physical move.
    Agatha – This match-up is ok. Golbat and Arbok should be beaten just fine. Honestly the Ghosts can be beaten too, but as usual be ready for status.
    Lance – Gyarados and Aerodactyl lose to you. Dragonite can also be beaten but Hyper Beam hurts quite a bit. The Dragonair resist Thunderbolt, although they are quite weak so you can beat them one-on-one with Body Slam.
    Blue – Your main targets are Pidgeot, Gyarados, Charizard and Blastoise. Things like Arcanine, Alakazam and even Exeggutor can also be taken on if required. All in all, Raichu is reasonably useful in this battle.
    -Additional Comments: Raichu can be described as ‘adequate’. It isn’t particularly outstanding in any way but it is a good Pokémon that is useful during many points of the game. Its biggest flaw is probably the way it eats up some useful TMs to be as good as it can be, but it is still an decent option.

    • Pikachu (Yellow)
    Pikachu (Yellow) (open)
    -Pikachu (Yellow) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Pikachu is a starter Pokémon which is a good thing for obvious reasons. However, Pikachu’s biggest flaw is undoubtedly its inability to fully evolve, which means you have to use Pikachu for the whole game if you want to use it.
    -Stats: Pikachu has the worst stats in the game for a ‘fully evolved’ Pokémon (which it basically is in Yellow). 90 Speed is good, allowing it to outspeed pretty much everything. However, 55 Attack and 50 Speed make it a weak attacker, and its abysmal 35 HP and 30 Defence mean that it can be KOed by a light breeze. Its stats are ok early on, but towards the end it will start to lag.
    -Movepool: Pikachu actually gained a larger level-up movepool in Yellow, but most of it isn’t particularly useful. What Pikachu did gain that was useful is Thunderbolt at level 26. This makes it the only Pokémon with Thunderbolt from level-up, which is useful because it allows you to save the TM for something else. Aside from Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave (which really helps out against faster opponents like Misty's Starmie), Pikachu’s movepool isn’t that great. It can use Body Slam/Mega Punch, Seismic Toss, and Submission, but other than that you’ll be using Thunderbolt most of the time.
    -Power: Pikachu’s power probably peaks when it first learns Thunderbolt. Before then, it has to rely on that weaker Thundershock, which is fine for killing birds but will struggle to do a lot against anything else. Thunderbolt allows Pikachu to 2HKO most things that don’t resist it. However, as the game goes on you’ll find that Pikachu’s awful defences will start to rear its head, and it will only be useful for taking on things that are weak to Electric.
    -Type: Electric is a good offensive type. The things that are weak to it are fairly common, although on the flip side the things that resist it appear frequently too. Regardless, STAB Electric coverage is quite useful. The problem with Electric from a defensive point of view is not so much that it has lots of weaknesses (it’s only weak to Ground) but that it lacks resistances, which the frail Pikachu is in desparate need for.
    -Match-ups: Brock – This sucks because his Pokémon are immune to ThunderShock. It is actually possible for Pikachu to win with a combination of Double Team, Tail Whip and Quick Attack, but this is slow and requires a bit of overleveling to get Double Team at level 15.
    Misty – You have the type advantage but it isn’t as easy as you might think. Starmie is a fast and powerful Pokémon that can beat with BubbleBeam. To beat it you kind of have to hope that Misty shoots herself in the foot by using Tackle, Harden and X Defend. Thankfully this actually isn’t too uncommon. At the very least, Pikachu can beat Staryu guaranteed and can at least wound Starmie for a partner to finish off.
    Lt. Surge – If you are at a reasonable level and have given Pikachu Body Slam, then you can actually take him on. However, you still rely a bit on luck because Mega Punch and Mega Kick will hurt.
    Erika – Don’t bother. They resist Thunderbolt and will shrug off anything else you can throw at them.
    Koga – You can take the Venonats because they are just as weak as you are! Venomoth will beat you down though.
    Sabrina – You get badly out-Specialed here. Abra is obviously beatable, but Alakazam is a bit much for it.
    Blaine – Actually not that different from Sabrina. Ninetales can take Thunderbolt and hit back with Flamethrower, as can Arcanine. Rapidash is probably the best match-up, but overall Pikachu is just too frail to work without grinding for levels.
    Giovanni – You would be foolish to try anything here, although Persian can be beaten.
    Lorelei – You do ok here. Thunderbolt is super-effective on 4 of her Pokémon. However, your low stats make it difficult to beat everything here.
    Bruno – Your best match-up is Hitmonchan because it is frail on the Special side and relies on pathetic elemental punches to do damage. Hitmonlee is just as frail but hits you hard, and Machamp is even worse. Stay away from Onix.
    Agatha – Golbat is Thunderbolt bait. Arbok and Haunter are beatable too. Gengar is trickier since it can take your Thunderbolts and status you.
    Lance – Gyarados is your main target, and Aerodactyl should be beatable too. However, Dragonair resists Thunderbolt and Dragonite is just too strong for you.
    Blue – You really don’t have many targets. You’re stuck with Cloyster and Vaporeon, with potentially the Electric types, the Fire types and Alakazam also (you probably won’t be strong enough beat all of these at once though). If you have Body Slam then you might be able to expand your targets but you should really leave it to something else.
    -Additional Comments: This is clearly the worst starter in RBY, and perhaps even one of the worst starters in the whole series. What saves it is Thunderbolt by level-up, which allows it to be useful against regular trainers for quite a while and early on it can perform just as well as most of the stuff that’s available at that point. Just make sure you have some stronger teammates at your side to bit those tougher match-ups.

    • Poliwag
    Poliwag (open)
    -Poliwag - Mid Tier
    -Availability: You can catch this as a Poliwag or a Poliwhirl with a rod. You need to beat Pokémon Tower to get the rods, so you can get it mid-game at the earliest. In RB its highest level is in the mid 20s, but in Yellow you can catch it as high as level 40 (you need 4 badges to reach the water on route 23 though). You can then evolve it straight away (or level it up for Body Slam)
    -Stats: Poliwrath is basically a middleman. All of its stats are decent without being particularly outstanding. This allows it to be a solid Pokémon on the battlefield.
    -Movepool: Poliwrath has a great movepool. It is notable that it has Body Slam in its movepool, which means it can learn Body Slam without using up the TM. It learns BubbleBeam/Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Psychic, Earthquake and Submission from TM/HM, allowing it to gain excellent coverage. It also has Amnesia if you don’t mind boosting.
    -Power: Poliwrath just doesn’t have the stats to power through absolutely everything, but the awesome coverage allows it to be useful during many parts of the game. It will always contribute, though it won’t do anything amazing.
    -Type: Water is a great STAB, and although Poliwrath’s Special isn’t as high as it could be, Surf should be sufficient to gain at least a 2HKO on most things. Its typing is unique, but to be honest the Fighting type hurts it more than it helps it, adding Psychic and Flying weaknesses in addition to the Electric and Grass ones.
    -Match-ups: Koga – You should be fine in RB, especially if you gave it Psychic, but in Yellow you have a Psychic weakness to deal with.
    Sabrina – You’re a Fighting type. This is a Psychic gym. It won’t end well.
    Blaine – You do great here. Surf will deal with his Pokémon nicely.
    Giovanni – Basically the same as Blaine, but you have to watch for Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking. You should be able to take at least 1 though.
    Lorelei – An even match. If you have Submission you can hit her Ice types harder than they can hit back. Watch for Psychic from Slowbro in Yellow.
    Bruno – Onix dies to Surf and the Hitmons have horrible Specials. This should be easy.
    Agatha – Being weak to Psychic isn’t helpful, particularly in Yellow (one of her Gengar has Psychic in Yellow). It’s more manageable in RB as long as you don’t stay asleep for too long. If you have Earthquake then it should be effective here, and Golbat is weak to Ice Beam.
    Lance – Ice Beam is a huge help against the Dragons and Aerodactyl, though there are better choices are Gyarados. Yellow is harder thanks to Fly and Thunderbolt.
    Blue – You can actually take on anything except Alakazam (and perhaps Venusaur) in RB, particularly Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard and Arcanine. In Yellow, you should be fine against everything except Jolteon, Magneton and Alakazam.
    -Additional Comments: It just doesn’t have enough power for high tier, and it suffers a bit in RB for availability, but regardless it is a decent choice that sets itself apart from other water types with its impressive movepool. It provides a Surfer that can also battle well, and it has great match-ups against important trainers towards the end of the game.


    Discuss away. I actually tested Amnesia Poliwrath recently and I'll probably give my thoughts on it later.
  17. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,619
    Mankey's analysis is kinda wonky here.

    That run-on.

    Fighting is just a bad-type in general, but considering Mankey's the earliest that shows up he's decent enough. Mid.

    Meowth - is he really good enough to be mid-tier, given that he's going to need a couple of exclusive TMs (Bubblebeam, Thunderbolt) to be really be able to do stuff? I guess Meowth might be able to get away with Water Gun instead, but it's not like Persian has the best Special in the world, after all... might be good if this drops.

    Oddish - no comments, this one seems fine

    Pikachu - It's pretty much a "pick your poison" thing here, between Raichu and natural Thunderbolt. Honestly both aren't really that different so they're fine, although I think Yellow Pikachu might drop, depending on the significance of natural Thunderbolt. Brock actually dies to Tail Whip abuse, negating the need for Double Team. However, it's still going to take a while (Quick Attack is like a 3-4HKO on -6 Onix iirc ._.)
  18. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    Messages:
    201
    One thing, Poliwhirl can solo Sabrina : It's hard, but possible.
  19. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    Funnily enough, when Naix originally wrote Meowth he actually DID put it in Low tier, although he also said that he wasn't 100% confident about his decision. After that, a few other members posted about how they thought Mid tier was better, so he changed it.

    Since I've never used it, it's difficult for me to judge. Its Speed is awesome and STAB Normal moves are neat. When you first catch it, it actually starts with STAB Bite, which is very good. On the other hand, Slash comes too late to see much use, it is TM dependent, and its stats (besides Speed) are mediocre. Naix also swore that Level 27 Meowth's Water Gun couldn't even 1HKO the Geodude used by the Hiker's in Rock Tunnel, which shows how weak it can be.

    I'll drop it if there is enough support for it to be dropped. I'm personally on the fence about it.
  20. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    OH, I forgot to say this, but on the Magnemite analysis (which we covered before), should we mention that it doesn't have a Steel typing this game? Newer players may be unaware of this.
  21. KingNeedlesThe1st

    KingNeedlesThe1st

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    29
    I know it's not currently being discussed, but why isn't it stated in Slowpoke's analysis that you can fish it up in Celadon City's pond with the Super Rod? I know that it's probably better to catch in Seafoam, considering you need it to evolve ASAP, but I thought it'd be worth a mention.
  22. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    1,022
    I actually plan on bringing up Slowpoke in the next round, but I'll keep this in mind. Thanks.

    I guess the type section can start with something like: "Because the Steel type doesn't exist in 1st gen, Magnemite is pure Electric" and then go on about the up and downs of that type. I'll add that to the to-do list later.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I guess I should discuss Yellow Amnesia Poliwrath now.

    The thing I liked best about it is its catch level. Level 40 Poliwhirl at that point in the game is quite good. I used a team of Pikachu/Clefable/Sandslash/Dodrio/Poliwrath and by the time I reached the elite 4 my team was level 50. I imagine that had I not used Poliwrath and stuck with just my 4 other Pokemon, my team would be at a similar level. Certainly, had I used a different Water, I would either have to grind it to catch up, or continue on and accept that my team would be at a slightly lower level by the time I reached the elite 4. Catch level is the main reason to use it over other Water types

    On the other hand, Poliwrath isn't even that strong. Its stats are so middle-of-the-road. Even at 2+ Special, I actually failed to KO some of the bulkier route Pokemon. It's basically like Slowbro with more Speed but less power and bulk. I do think the Fighting type hurts it more than it helps it too, which I guess is a good case for using Poliwhirl and its higher Speed instead.

    Still, Poliwrath was able to solo the last 4 gym leaders which was fun, although not without risk:
    • Against Koga, Venonat can be annoying because of Sleep Powder, Toxic, and Psychic Special drops, although Psychic barely leaves a scratch even with the weakness (Venonat is so weak). Poliwrath outspeeds all the Venonats but Venomoth is faster and a single crit will ruin the sweep.
    • Against Sabrina, its simply a matter of setting up Amnesia on Abra, using X-Accuracy once to cancel out Flash, and OHKOing all of her Pokemon. Again, Poliwrath is slower than Kadabra and Alakazam so a crit wrecks you, but other than that its an easy win.
    • Blaine is easy as long as Ninetales doesn't get lucky with Confuse Ray, and you probably don't even need to set up (maybe 1 Amnesia will do).
    • Giovanni's Dugtrio has Fissure. If you can survive it during set up then this is an easy win (you probably only need 1 Amnesia anyway). Thunder from Nidoking and Nidoqueen is a pain but I got past them with no problems.
    It was useful against the Elite 4 too like all Water types are.

    But I'm a bit wary of splitting Poliwag's entries. I wasn't convinced that Yellow Poliwag is strong enough to be boosted to High, although the catch level is definitely a plus. I'd be inclined to leave them combined and in the same tier out of sheer convenience. Either way, I do think that I'll need to revamp my Poliwag analysis to focus a bit on Amnesia. My current analysis is a bit mediocre...

    Anyway, I think I'll leave this round open for a little bit longer before moving on. The next round will be the last of the Mid tier Pokemon, and then we have Low tier.
  23. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    I think in Yellow should be emphasized the fact that Mankey is the easiest and fastest way to defeat Brock(along with Confusion Butterfree, but leveling Metapod is boring), since in Yellow learns Low Kick at level 9(also adding that, unlike the latter games, Low Kick power does not depend on the weight of the target, it has always 50 base power)

    The adding of Low Kick and the fact that unlike Red, Mankey appears in Route 22 seems a favour by the programmers to not make things too dificult against Brock because Pikachu and the lack of Grass/Waters at that point.

    If I Recall Correctly, because I haven't played in-game in Yellow for years, Mankey is not an instant win even with Low Kick, but with Potions or Leer/Tail Whip support by the partners is pretty easy.
  24. Dre89

    Dre89

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    363
    Mankey will probably win pretty comfortably in Yellow if it's level 12.

    I managed to beat RB Brock with a level 14 beedrill, though that did require a lot of potions.
  25. NoUserName

    NoUserName

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2010
    Messages:
    484
    Beating Brock with a level 14 beedrill? Sounds possible, but it will take a lot of time. How? Using Fury Attack all the time? (I read in this post that Brock has Full Heals, so the poison of Poison Sting will not work...)

    I haven't played Yellow for ages, I remember that Geodude and Onix aren't KO'ed by a single Low Kick unless too underleveled and they hit "hard" (Mankey has awful Defense and HP)

    But again, it is what I remember when I used to play a lot of runs in Yellow a lot of years.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)