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Pokemon RBY In-Game Tiers - Mark III

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by atsync, Mar 4, 2013.

  1. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    Only suicidal Pokemon I remember in RBY were Weezing in Koga's gym, and Electrode at the Power Planet.
  2. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    May 31, 2011
    Also every wild Graveler. An resistance/immunity to Selfdestruct is really handy.
  3. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Aug 16, 2007

    I could have sworn there were. Is there a site that shows the attacks of every poke of every trainer? O.o

    Though again, Rock's resistances (normal) is very useful in general. Though I think the use of Normal resistance becomes less useful near the end. Anyway, when I tried Golem way back when, I definitely got a kind of ~mid~ impression, and in the last thread I just got a weird knee-jerk reaction about Sandslash being above Golem.

    However, 45 => 65 is a big difference in-game, and Slash is more reliable and generally more useful in-game than a STAB Rock Slide, so I can definitely see Sanslash being more useful overall.
  4. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I don't know of a site that lists that information although it probably exists somewhere. All I know is that trainer Pokemon in 1st gen tend to use the movesets they would have if you caught that Pokemon in the wild at that level. This even applies to most gym leaders and elite 4 Pokemon in RB, although the developers at least had the sense to improve those movesets in Yellow. That's why you end up with really bad movesets like that of RB Blue's Exeggutor (a level 61 Exeggutor caught in the wild would only have Hypnosis, Barrage and Stomp, so Blue's Exeggutor just uses those moves in RB). Using that knowledge, you can pretty much figure out the movesets of anything.

    I've been testing Sandslash and so far I've been really impressed. I think what Mekkah said about it is spot on. It really does better in practice that it might seem on paper. After it evolved, I don't think I've ever come across a single Pokemon that isn't OHKOed by either Slash or Dig. As far as Speed goes, 65 is sufficient early on and the only time I got outsped was against Lt. Surge's Raichu which hardly matters.

    Honestly if we were ranking it just on its battling performance as a Sandslash then it would be instant Top tier. However it does have a few flaws:
    • Reliance on Dig. It could easily survive without it but it wouldn't be as effective.
    • Doesn't reach full potential right away. Grinding Sandshrew is a bit lame. It has good Attack and Defence for the wild Pokemon on its route but its slow so it has to return to the Pokemon Centre quite a bit. It took me about 30 minutes to get it from level 10 to level 16, although grinding becomes easier when you reach level 12 (that's when it starts outspeeding the wild Pokemon). Also, Scratch is its only attacking move until level 17 (it doesn't even get Mega Punch), and Sandshrew's Slash often doesn't OHKO even with a crit. A crit from Sandshrew DOES ensure at least a 2HKO on everything though, bar Rock types which it can't do much to until Dig, and the odds are in your favour of that happening at least once in 2 turns. Once it gets Dig and evolves into Sandslash, then it becomes monstrous, but it isn't instantly amazing like, say, a Dugtrio caught in Diglett's Cave.
    I think those are enough to stop it from reaching Top, so High seems like a good spot for it in my opinion.

    Whether this means we raise Geodude to High to match it remains to be seen. Its low Speed is a bit of a turn-off to me based on the Speed stats of other Pokemon I've used recently that are in that sort of range (Vileplume, Porygon, etc.), although its type is great and it has other attributes. We'll figure it out when we get up to it.
  5. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I think I've left this alone for long enough, so I'm just gonna say that all 6 of these Pokemon will stay in High.


    Might as well put the next guys up for discussion. As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next pokemon up will be:
    • Shellder
    Shellder (open)
    -Shellder - High Tier
    -Availability: There are numerous methods for obtaining Shellder. It is possible to fish it up with the Super Rod. This isn’t the best choice in RB because it is severely underleveled. In Yellow, it is more viable because it can be obtained as high as level 40. In RB, you are better off waiting until you reach the Seaform Islands, where it comes at a more reasonable level (28-33, depending on version). Although this may seem a bit low compared to what your team will be at, it can (like most later game water types) head to Cinnabar and gain levels easily using the wild Pokémon and trainers in the Mansion and Gym. Despite coming somewhat late, Shellder comes at the time where Water/Ice coverage is most valuable. It should also be noted that Shellder can be evolved right away, which means you don’t have to worry about using the weaker Shellder at all.
    -Stats: The most striking stat is the huge 180 Defence. Cloyster has 95 Attack and 85 Special, allowing it to hit reasonably hard from both ends of the spectrum. 70 Speed is adequate for in-game runs. Cloyster’s only low stat is its 50 HP, but this isn’t a huge concern for a simple run through of the main game, and in terms of physical bulk its insane Defence makes up for it.
    -Movepool: Cloyster starts off with Surf/Bubblebeam and an Ice move, assuming you catch it at level 30 (which is required for Aurora Beam). In fact, having Aurora Beam this early allows you to avoid using one of the Ice TMs on it if required. However, Cloyster greatly appreciates Ice Beam/Blizzard. Beyond its STABs, all it gets are Normal attacks. Tri Attack is probably the pick of the lot because it has decent power with no drawbacks, and the fact that it is such an exclusive move means that it is very likely to be available to Cloyster.
    -Power: Cloyster is strong enough for what it needs to do, and that is take advantage of the excellent coverage that its STABs provide late game. Powerful moves and solid stats serve it well. Note that Cloyster, like many Water types, will struggle a bit against opposing Water types. Tri Attack helps but does not solve the problem completely, although Cloyster can probably defend itself better than many other Water types thanks to higher Attack, Water and Ice resistance, and great Defence to take Normal attacks.
    -Type: Water/Ice is a fantastic offensive combination considering when Cloyster joins the team. It covers many of the important trainers towards the end, which is invaluable. Cloyster does have a few nasty weaknesses though. Its massive Defence allows it to take Fighting and Rock attacks but Electric and Grass attacks will sting. Thankfully, as long as you have good knowledge of the movesets of your opponents, particularly Gym Leaders and Elite 4 members, these attacks are easy to predict and avoid.
    -Match-ups: Blaine – You have STAB Surf on your side. You laugh at their physical attacks. Just don’t underestimate the power of STAB Fire Blast. 85 Special is good but 50 HP may leave you vulnerable, especially in Yellow where Ninetales is the lead.
    Giovanni – Surf (or an Ice attack) basically adds up to a clean sweep. Persian isn’t doing much to you with your 180 Defence. Be careful about Thunder from Nidoqueen and Nidoking though.
    Lorelei – Mirror Match. There are better choices but you can actually do better here than some of the other water types. 180 Defence combined with your Water and Ice resistances makes it a bit difficult for her to harm you significantly, and you have Tri Attack backed up by 95 Attack. Only Slowbro (in Yellow) has a Special attack that can hit you neutrally. Naturally, Cloyster should probably sit this out for a more efficient choice, but knowing that Cloyster can tank most of her Pokémon’s attacks is reassuring if you need a back up.
    Bruno – Surf covers Onix, and it hits his Fighting types hard too. The Fighting weakness isn’t that bad considering your 180 Defence. You should be able to pull off a sweep.
    Agatha – No type advantage here. You can hit Golbat with an Ice attack, and Arbok is weak. The ghosts are trickier because there are bulky on the special side and can annoy you with status. Also, watch out for the Gengar with Mega Drain in Yellow.
    Lance – Your STABs cover everything except Gyarados. Even Gyarados can be beaten one on one with Tri Attack and 180 Defence, although it is easier to send your Thunderbolt Pokémon in to deal with it. In Yellow, Dragonite and Dragonair have Electric moves. However, given how Dragonair is fairly weak and Dragonite is probably going to be OHKOed by your Ice attack, it isn’t a huge deal.
    Blue – You can beat Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Venusaur, Sandslash, Ninetales and Flareon for sure. If you want, you can take on his Water Pokémon too. Just steer clear of his Electric types and you’ll be fine. Cloyster is unbelievably useful for this battle.
    -Additional Comments: This is a good water Pokémon for late game use. It has competition from other water types like Omaster, Dewgong and Starmie though. Cloyster is a good Pokémon in its own right regardless of comparisons, and it distinguishes itself with its massive Defence and above average Attack. The biggest advantage it has over its competition is its efficiency. By coming at a high level and having access to a great moveset without any significant sacrifices, Cloyster can fit in on almost any team.

    • Snorlax
    Snorlax (open)
    Snorlax - High Tier
    Availability: 2 that are available after getting the Pokeflute. Comes at a whopping level 30 (should be about the same or better than your other teammates). You can even use both if you want (1 with Surf, and another with Ice Beam / Blizzard / EQ, lol).
    Stats: Some of the best stats in the game-- Snorlax is an OU level beast with fantastic HP and ATK. It's speed is bad, and its defensive stats are more than passable with that MONSTER HP. Amnesia can patch up its special... very fast...
    Movepool: Comes with Headbutt and quickly gets Body Slam (one of the best Normal moves in the game), which also preserves your precious Body Slam TM. It comes with Rest + Amnesia (+ Pokeflute) which is stupid, especially since Body Slam + boosted Surf can destroy everything in the game. Body Slam / Rest / Surf / Amnesia is probably the best in-game set, especially if you aren't cloning TMs. Basically, Snorlax can rape everything without using any TMs. If you are cloning TMs, you can give it Earthquake or Blizzard. Not really important, but it learns Hyper Beam on its own too...
    Power: It has awesome ATK, and Amnesia pumps up its Special like crazy. It can sweep on either side.
    Type: Normal is arguably better than Psychic. While it has no resistances (much like Psychic), it also has basically no weaknesses as Fighting attacks are almost non-existent (Fighting Gym/Bruno's Hitmonlee, Bruno's Machamp--that's it). Normal has perfect or near-perfect coverage with so many types in the game-- Rhydon/Golem and Gengar are the only things in all of RBY that hold up to Normal attacks, and Snorlax has access to Surf, Blizzard/Ice Beam, and Earthquake. Yeah, no problemo.
    Erika: Snorlax laughs at status, Amnesia's through all their attacks, and destroys them with Headbutt/Body Slam. If you gave Snorlax Ice Beam... Ice Beam + Amnesia, lol
    Koga: A little bit tough since Sludge hits Snorlax's weak physical side, but you can Amnesia up against something weak like Koffing, Rest of any Poison/damage and sweep with Surf / Ice Beam.
    Sabrina: Amnesia to max special against Kadabra / Mr. Mime. Sweep with Ice Beam / Surf / Body Slam. Body Slam from a decent leveled Snorlax OHKO's Alakazam, and comes close even through Reflect. Psychic from Alakazam does laughable damage when Snorlax is at +6 Special. Sucks if Psychic crits you though...
    Blaine: Amnesia + Rest + Surf= lol If you went with Earthquake, you'll be getting hit hard by Fire Blasts but you'll OHKO everything while you still have health. If you taught Snorlax Ice Beam / Blizzard, it still does well with Body Slam. Sucks if Arcanine's Fire Blast crits you.
    Giovani: Amnesia + Surf + Rest = Sweep
    Lorolei: It'll take some effort to break through her Ice-types relying on Body Slam, but she won't be able to touch you without a critical hit once you've amnesia'd up against Dewgong. Sucks if something crits you with Blizzard though...
    Bruno: Just watch out for Hitmonlee and Machamp. Surf Snorlax destroys everything else.
    Agatha: Gengars can literally do nothing to Snorlax, especially after it Amnesia's up. Amnesia + Surf / Ice Beam for the sweep. If you went with Earthquake, you'll OHKO everything except Golbat, who will die to Body Slams. Agatha is no threat.
    Lance: Snorlax won't like repeated Hyper Beams, but it can definitely hold its own (especially if you taught it Ice Beam / Blizzard)
    Rival: Pidgeot can't do shit to Snorlax, so feel free to set up Amnesia and sweep his whole team. Pokemon Yellow is harder since Sand Attack and powerful physical attacks from Sandslash are annoying, but Snorlax will still hold its own as a powerful attacker.
    Additional Comments: Snorlax has the power and movepool to destroy everything. It requires minimum TM investment (none at all if you abuse Surf + Amnesia), and almost no healing item support thanks to Rest + Pokeflute. It can even sweep using Strength + Surf, packing HMs while beating shit up simultaneously. Snorlax's only real problem is being slow... really slow... which means it can really get fucked up by critical hits in RBY. Since Snorlaxe's Special Defense is only 65 in RBY, a crit at the wrong time can be really bad when Amnesia-boosted Snorlax gets OHKO'd by a Psychic, Blizzard or Fire Blast it would have otherwise lol'd at. If you just pack some extra Hyper Potions to help Snorlax out in the face of some unfortunate hax, it can sweep through most enemies.

    • Squirtle (Y)
    Squirtle (Y) (open)
    -Squirtle (Yellow) - High Tier
    -Availability: This is obtained in Vermillion city after you beat Lt. Surge. It comes at level 10, which is rather low. Although this does mean you have to grind it (which slows things down a bit), it doesn’t take particularly long. The trainers east of Vermillion provide an excellent source of experience (you’ll need to baby it though). You should be close to level 20 by the time all the trainers are beaten. From there, Diglett’s Cave can be used to finish the job. After this, more experience can be gained from beating the Hikers between Cerulean City and Lavender Town. By then, Yellow Squirtle should play similarly to RB Squirtle.
    -Stats: Blastoise’s stats are solid overall, if not spectacular. His highest stat is Defence (100) but his other stats are perfectly acceptable for in-game play. He has enough Attack and Special to hit things hard and he has enough Speed to be going first most of the time.
    -Movepool: Squirtle’s level up movepool is not particularly noteworthy. Bubble and Water Gun provide STABs early on, and Bite is decently powerful (although a tad too late to be overly useful), but other than that it’ll be relying on TM/HM support. Thankfully, Blastoise gets lots to choose from. BubbleBeam is an excellent STAB move early on, and Surf comes just as BubbleBeam is starting to lose its usefulness. It can learn Ice Beam and Blizzard, giving it nice coverage. It also gets Dig/Earthquake, Submission and Body Slam (plus the numerous other Normal TMs). You should have no problem putting a good moveset together.
    -Power: Blastoise should be at least 2HKOing everything thanks to its excellent coverage, and it is capable of outspeeding and OHKOing plenty of things. It is very consistent and its power will never lag, making it useful throughout the whole game.
    -Type: Water is a very good type in this game. It particularly shines towards the end, where it eats the last few gyms alive and matches up well with the elite 4. The Electric weakness is hardly an issue since Electric moves are rare. The Grass weakness is a bit more concerning, but it is a weakness that can easily be covered by teammates, and Blastoise can still use an Ice attack to defend itself.
    -Match-ups: Erika – Wartortle isn’t that good here. You should hopefully have Ice Beam which helps a lot, but it isn’t strong enough to OHKO her Pokémon and that leaves him vulnerable to a status move or Grass move.
    Koga – Type-wise there isn’t much to say, but Blastoise should do well here based on Power alone. Venonat is a weakling, though Venomoth can be a tough opponent.
    Sabrina – No type advantage to mention. If you have physical moves then they will help out, but you may find yourself outsped and KOed. At the very least, you’ll beat Abra, and Kadabra is beatable too.
    Blaine – There is absolutely no reason why you would lose here. You have a clear type advantage and you have the stats to pull off a sweep.
    Giovanni – Basically what applies to Blaine applies here too. You have to watch for Nidoqueen and Nidoking though, as they will try to Thunder you.
    Lorelei – This is a mirror match. You don’t ‘lose’ but there are superior choices for this battle. You can beat Jynx just fine though.
    Bruno – This is easy. Onix is Surf bait and his Fighting types can’t stomach Special moves for long. Blastoise has the bulk to take a hit.
    Agatha – Earthquake is a huge help here for Arbok and the Ghosts (Arbok can’t take Surf well anyway), and Ice Beam covers Golbat. However, the Ghosts might outspeed and status you. One of the Gengar has Mega Drain too.
    Lance – Ice Beam/Blizzard covers the Dragons, and Surf nails Aerodactyl. Gyarados is beatable, though you can’t exactly plow through it. Watch out for Electric moves from his Dragons too.
    Blue – You should be fine to take on Sandslash, Alakazam, Exeggutor, Ninetales, Vaporeon, Cloyster and Flareon.
    -Additional Comments: This suffers a bit in Yellow from poor availability, but it is an issue that can be overcome somewhat easily, and the results are definitely worth it.

    • Staryu
    Staryu (open)
    -Staryu - High Tier
    -Availability: Like most late-game Water-types, Staryu can be found in Seafoam Islands, at or around level 30. However, if you're really impatient, you can use a Super Rod at Fuschia City to catch one, but keep in mind that it can only be found at level 15 by that method. Being a stone evolution Pokemon, Staryu can evolve whenever you want.
    -Stats: Starmie's Speed allows it to outspeed everything in the game (except for your rival's Jolteon in Yellow, but Jolteon wins that match-up regardless) as well as giving it a formidable 22.5% critical hit ratio, while its Special makes it a solid special attacker and also giving it decent special bulk.
    -Movepool: Its unimpressive level-up movepool (barring the almighty Recover) is a double-edged sword; while it allows you to evolve Staryu as soon as you catch it, it also means it's largely reliant on TMs and Surf to be good. Thankfully, all it really needs is Surf and Psychic (whose competition is Mr. Mime, Jynx, and maybe Drowzee. In other words, fellow Psychic-types) to be a quality contributor. Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are just additional perks.
    -Power: From the moment you evolve it and teach it Surf (and hopefully Psychic as well), Starmie is ready to duke it out with a good amount of trainers, and it will need to beat a lot in order to completely catch up, as the rest of your team should be at least level 36, while Starmie's only level 30-32, and it takes longer for it to level up than most others. Despite being on even playing ground in terms of levels, Starmie can still easily plow through opponents, provided it can hit them super-effectively. Once it's caught up, it can wash unresisted opponents away with Surf alone, and it's also one of the few late-game Water-types that doesn't have too much difficulty with fellow Water-types (thanks, Psychic and Thunderbolt!).
    -Type: Starmie is one of a few Pokemon that have not just one, but two great STABs to use; Psychic is super-effective on a wide variety of things, and Surf allows it to absolutely flood Cinnabar and Viridian Gyms. Even Water Gun (which it should know when you catch it) can be useful for dealing with some Water-weak Pokemon, such as Rhyhorn or Growlithe, without wasting Surf's PP. Also, Grass, Electric, and Bug are all uncommon types in-game, meaning Starmie's opponents will most likely not be able to threaten it too much, thanks to Recover.
    --Lt. Surge: Provided Raichu's Thunderbolt doesn't crit, Starmie has a pretty smooth time against him.
    --Erika: To make a long story short, Starmie has no trouble with her if it knows Ice Beam or Psychic.
    --Koga: Because you need to beat him to Surf outside of battle, you'll have to use one caught via the Super Rod, and thus have to train it up at least 20 levels to stand a chance against him. For the battle itself, Psychic destroys him in Red and Blue, and in Yellow, its performance is a bit rougher, but still doable.
    --Sabrina: Starmie's at a stalemate against her Alakazam, as Surf and Psychic each do less than Recover heals. Your chances of victory in Yellow are slimmer, thanks to the level bump.
    --Blaine: Swept away by Surf.
    --Giovanni: Persian and Nidoqueen can take a Surf, but aside from that, he's the same as Blaine.
    --Lorelei: Lapras is the only Pokemon on her team that can deal notable damage to Starmie, but Starmie will have a lot of trouble if it doesn't know Thunderbolt.
    --Bruno: Considering that his entire team is weak to Starmie's STABs, not to mention the fact that none of them have good Special, this outcome should be obvious.
    --Agatha: Her Ghost-types have enough special bulk to take a Psychic and confuse Starmie or put it to sleep. Her other Pokemon aren't too bad.
    --Lance: Starmie sweeps his team, but only if it knows both Thunderbolt and Ice Beam. The former is needed for Gyarados, while the latter OHKOes his Dragonair and Dragonite.
    --Rival: How well it does depends on what you taught it, but keep in mind that it will almost never beat his Alakazam, Magneton, or Jolteon.
    -Additional Comments: Of all the late-game Water-types, Starmie stands out as quite possibly the (second) best of them, due to its great stats and wide (albeit TM dependent) movepool. While it doesn't excel from the moment you get it (not to mention it takes a while to catch up to the rest of the team), once it's caught up, it becomes a great Pokemon that's capable of beating most of the major battles by itself, given the proper support.

    • Tentacool
    Tentacool (open)
    -Tentacool - High Tier
    -Availability: The best way to obtain Tentacool is to encounter it by surfing. The Tentacool south of Fuchsia City vary wildly in level, ranging from level 5 to level 40. However, it doesn’t take very long to get a high level Tentacool, and by using Repels strategically you can encounter one sooner. It is also possible to use the Super Rod to fish one up in various locations. This is really only viable in Yellow because the RB Tentacool caught by fishing are underleveled (and you can even fish up a Tentacruel in Yellow). Tentacool evolves at level 30 so if you catch a high level one you can obtain Tentacruel quickly. Although Tentacool is relatively late, it comes at a convenient time where Tentacruel’s strengths are most useful.
    -Stats: The stat that should get the most attention is Special. At an incredible 120, Tentacruel edges out Omaster as the most powerful Water type when hitting from the special side. This is supported by 100 Speed, which is outspeeding practically all opponents in game. Tentacruel’s only remotely poor stat is Defence, but it isn’t at the same level of “pathetic” as something like Alakazam, and thanks to its high power this is easy to work around.
    -Movepool: Tentacruel doesn’t have much of note within its level up move, although Hydro Pump is very powerful and Barrier can be used to patch up its weak Defence if you so wish. Its best moves come from TMs. It is a given that Tentacruel will get Surf, which hits like a truck from its 120 Special. It gets Ice Beam and Blizzard for coverage and although both are valuable TMs, it is standard to give at least one of those to the water type on your team. As such, Tentacruel can safely assume access to an Ice move. Tentacruel is also compatible with Mega Drain, and is the only Water type capable of learning the attack. It isn’t something Tentacruel absolutely must have, but it provides super-effective coverage against opposing Water types while recovering HP at the same time. Water types love being able to hit other Water types, and with 120 Special and its resistances to back it up, Tentacruel can use it hold its own against Water types much better than many of its Water type brethren.
    -Power: With its stats and coverage, Tentacruel is a destructive force to be reckoned with. Many of the late game opponents simply cannot stand up to Tentacruel. Tentacruel can plow through certain teams with ease, making the last parts of the game much easier for you.
    -Type: Tentacruel is the only Water/Poison type in RBY, although the Poison type doesn’t help it at all. STAB Water attacks are invaluable late game thank to super-effective hits on Fire and Ground types. Water provides it with resistances to Water, Ice and Fire. Tentacruel carries a weakness to Electric carried by all Water types, so make sure you have teammates that can take them. The Poison type neutralises the usual Grass weakness of Water, but at the same time adds Bug, Ground and Psychic weaknesses. This is of little concern because Bug attacks are weak in general, Tentacruel can destroy pretty much anything with a Ground move before they strike, and Psychic types are rare after Sabrina.
    -Match-ups: Sabrina – Many Water types tend to struggle against Sabrina’s Psychic types, but Tentacruel has it particularly bad because it is actually weak to Psychic moves. You do have your high Special on your side and Tentacruel can contribute somewhat against her weaker pokemon, but using Tentacruel for this battle isn’t the best idea and sending it in on Alakazam is foolish.
    Blaine – You absolutely destroy Blaine. They absolutely cannot stand up to your extreme power.
    Giovanni – The is a similar story to Blaine, but it is more risky in Yellow because Dugtrio might outspeed you and nail you with Earthquake. If Persian outspeeds you then its Slash may sting (Tentacruel should still win as long as you have plenty of HP in reserve though). Other than that, you can pretty much kill anything else effortlessly.
    Lorelei – Tentacruel fairs better than most Water types because of Mega Drain and its 120 Special. Tentacruel shouldn’t be the number one choice for this battle (that honour goes to your STAB Electric spammer should you be carrying one) but Tentacruel can definitely pull its wait here.
    Bruno – This is an easy battle for you. Onix is a joke, and Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are frail. Machamp has the option of hitting you with a crit Karate Chop in Yellow, but other than that you should have no serious issues. The fact that Tentacruel resists Fighting attacks is the icing on the cake.
    Agatha – Golbat and Arbok shouldn’t prove to be a problem. The ghosts are more concerning since they have high Specials and annoying status moves. One of her Gengar even has Psychic in Yellow. Using Tentacruel against the ghosts isn’t the best way to deal with them.
    Lance – Water/Ice coverage covers most of his team. Gyarados should be dealt with using a different Pokémon because Hyper Beam hits Tentacruel hard. Some of his Dragons have Electric attacks in Yellow but Tentacruel should have the speed advantage and it can take a non-STAB Thunderbolt/Thunder.
    Blue – Tentacruel’s coverage really comes in handy here. If you have Surf, Ice Beam/Blizzard and Mega Drain, you can hit Pidgeot, Rhydon, Exeggutor, Charizard, Arcanine, Blastoise and Venusaur in RB. In Yellow, the hitlist is Sandslash, Exeggutor, Ninetales, Vaporeon, Cloyster and Flareon. The main things to avoid would be Alakazam and the Electric types.
    -Additional Comments: Tentacruel is yet another great late game Water type. The main things differentiating it from the competition are its massive Special, its Poison type (for better or for worse) and Mega Drain. Tentacruel’s only “problem” is its lateness, but Tentacruel comes just when it’s needed and unless you started with Squirtle your Water type options are fairly limited before Tentacruel anyway.

    • Vaporeon
    Vaporeon (open)
    -Vaporeon - High Tier
    -Availability: Given to you in Celadon City at level 25. You need a Water Stone to evolve Eevee into this.
    -Stats: Vaporeon has one of the best stat spreads for in-game use. While its Speed might seem mediocre, it's actually just enough for it to outspeed most of the in-game threats and OHKO them, thanks to its more than adequate Special. If it gets outsped, or if the opponent survives a hit, it won't be taking much damage thanks to its massive HP.
    -Movepool: BubbleBeam and Ice Beam (via TMs 11 and 13, respectively) are all it gets in terms of moves when you get it, but that's really all it needs. When you get to Fuchsia, you can teach it Surf as well, but keep Bubblebeam. It also learns Ice Beam by TM and Aurora Beam by level-up (note: it only learns Aurora Beam in Yellow), allowing you to deal with the Bird Keepers without wasting Bubblebeam's or Surf's PP. Keep in mind that BubbleBeam and Ice Beam are both exclusive TMs, and as such Vaporeon might have competition with your other team members. Another thing of note is it's bulky enough to utilize the Rest/Poke Flute combination for (somewhat) reliable recovery.
    -Power: From the moment you get it and teach it Bubblebeam, Vaporeon performs excellently against most of its adversaries. In fact, it can take out the Celadon Grunts by itself if you're willing to teach it Ice Beam and use a few Super Potions. After that, Vappy should be caught up with the rest of your team. Unfortunately, the Ghost-types of Lavender Tower are faster than Vaporeon, but it can still do adequately, provided you don't get confused and paralyzed at the same time. From then on, Vappy does quite well against most of the remaining trainers, save for the abundant Swimmers late-game.
    -Type: Unlike most other Water-types, Vaporeon doesn't have a second type or a move that hurts fellow Water-types effectively, meaning it can't really do much between Fuchsia and Cinnabar.
    -Match-ups: Generally, Vaporeon's high HP and Special allow it to perform adequately against the Gym Leaders and Elite Four.
    Lt. Surge: If you choose to fight him right after obtaining Vaporeon, don't expect a victory from it, as his Raichu does around half with Thunderbolt, and you have to defeat his Voltorb (which knows Sonicboom) and Pikachu before fighting it. In Yellow, Raichu is his only Pokemon, but its "possible 2HKO" gets bumped up to a "solid 2HKO". In other words, don't use Vaporeon against him, at least not without prior training.
    Erika: Her Victreebel/Weepinbell happens to know Razor Leaf, which is almost guaranteed to KO in one hit. However, it is also OHKOed by Ice Beam, so whether Vaporeon or Victreebel comes out alive depends on who's faster. Tangela is more easily beaten, regardless of which game you're playing. Vileplume/Gloom knows Petal Dance, and Vileplume in particular can stomach an Ice Beam. Did I forget to mention Tangela is the only Pokemon of hers that doesn't know Sleep Powder?
    Koga: Much more managable than above, thanks to the neutral type match-up, and the fact that his Pokemon have shabby Special. In Yellow, he has 3 Venonats and a Venomoth, all of which are at least level 44 and know status-inducing moves.
    Sabrina: Her Pokemon, for the most part, are faster than Vaporeon, but Vappy's great special bulk will allow it to take a few Psychics, along with high HP allowing it to take (seemingly) minimal damage from Psywave. Unfortunately, it can't do too much back, thanks to their high Special. It can still beat at least one of her Pokemon by itself.
    Blaine: Literally, the only thing on his team that's actually threatening is Rapidash, and that's only if it spams Fire Spin for about 25 turns.
    Giovanni: Provided Dugtrio doesn't spam Sand Attack, you're good to go. In Yellow, his Persian can leave a mark with Slash, and his Nidos know Thunder, but he's still not too threatening.
    Lorelei: Don't expect much to come from this fight, as they resist each other's STABs.
    Bruno: His Onix are merely speed bumps, and the Hitmons have seemingly no Special. Vaporeon also has enough bulk to take a Hi Jump Kick or Submission if need be, and if it does get hit by Submission, Machamp will lose a chunk of its HP on recoil alone.
    Agatha: About her Ghost-types: think of them similarly to Sabrina's Kadabra and Alakazam, except with the threat of status instead of STAB Psychic. Also, the first Gengar knows Mega Drain in Yellow. Aside from that, she's pretty mild.
    Lance: All of his Pokemon, barring Gyarados, are OHKOed by Ice Beam, and his Aerodactyl can even be dealt with by Bubblebeam. Vappy also has the bulk to take a non-crit Hyper Beam, but it can't do much to Gyara, and Dragonite knows Thunder (Yellow only) and outspeeds it. Another thing to watch out for is his second Dragonair, as it knows Thunderbolt.
    Blue: In Red and Blue, the only ones on his team Vappy shouldn't take on by itself would be Alakazam, Venusaur, and possibly Gyarados. In Yellow, it has a bit more trouble, as Ninetales and Cloyster can continuously trap it with Fire Spin and Clamp, respectively. Also, it is recommended not to have Vaporeon fight Magneton or Jolteon, for obvious reasons.
    -Additional comments: From the moment you get it, Vaporeon is a great Pokemon, thanks to its barely-high-enough Speed, high Special, and great endurance. It doesn't even need grinding, thanks to Team Rocket, and it only has 2 problems: While it's effective when fighting most of the Pokemon in the game, it can't really do much to other Water-types not named Gyarados. It's also greatly dependent on BubbleBeam in order to be useful before Fuschia

    Comment on whatever you want. I'm personally fine with all of these in High.
  6. Mekkah

    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    That's a lot of Water.

    I still have not seen this stalemate happen ever, or if it does it's not for long. Can anyone verify that this is actually a problem? The way I see it, it needs to Recover every single turn to overcome Starmie's inevitable CH Surf.

    Snorlax might need some professionalism edits:

  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    Mekkah, my Starmie got into Stalemate with Sabrina's Level 50 Alakazam. She PP stalled me out of all my moves.
  8. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I can believe Hemp Man's account of things, although I'm not sure if this would happen in literally every Starmie vs. Alakazam battle given the AI's randomness at times. The match-up is ok, but it probably should be changed so that it says that Starmie could end up in a stalemate because the match-up implies that this scenario would always happens which is something I have trouble believing.
  9. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Oct 12, 2012
    Vappy's a Pokemon I use often, and frankly, outside of Blastoise, it's the best Water type in the game. Gets Ice Beam right after you get it, and you can survive on it until you get Surf from the nearby Safari Zone. After that, it wrecks things. The only thing I feel is keeping it from Top is that you might want Jolteon, who's also really good. It's also easier to get than Traded Seel (which is on Cinnibar anyway...), and has the bulk to take on most foes without trouble (It can survive Nidoking's Thunder with HP to spare, for example). It also joins your party at Level 25, which isn't too far behind your party's levels at that time.

    EDIT: That's not a bad idea, but Vappy doesn't really need it. It can kill things fine with just Ice Beam, since most of the things you'll be fighting are weak to it.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    Yeah, just mentioning the possibility of a stalemate is probably good enough.

    @Alice in Strings: You could also just give Vappy the BubbleBeam TM until you get Surf.
  11. Lucchini


    May 6, 2011
    I beat Sabrina's Zam with base level Starmie in Yellow with no problems. You attack its Special with Psychic, then nuke with Surf, switch out if necessary.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    Aug 16, 2007
    Something like this really shouldn't be considered in an "efficient" run. The reason is because this is basically a really bad set-up-- the problem being that I could get the same result faster by throwing 1-2 X Special on Starmie and just blasting Alakazam.

    At the point where I'm using 1-2 X Special (or even worse, fishing for Special Falls), we're using a strategy that should legitimize X Acc + OHKO moves (which we have decided to largely ignore).

    In general, I'm uncomfortable with giving too much credit to things with setup moves, when we don't give much credit to things with recovery moves (or Pokemon that could generally rip shit to shreds with just 1-2 X items). The problem being that we assume it's fine to give everything Potion support, when realistically X items are cheap and every bit as available as Potions.

    X ATK + Recover = Meditate + Hyper Potion (in terms of how much work the Pokemon itself is doing)
    (This is also why I give Hitmonlee basically zero credit for learning Meditate-- it's just X Attack people, everyone can use it)
  13. Lucchini


    May 6, 2011
    What's inefficient, reliably securing a win against a particularly tough opponent (one of the few in the game) by spending an extra minute on her?

    I think we haven't taken X items into account and we really shouldn't, I believe, as they change the capabilities of different Pokemon too drastically, essentially making them more or less the same (only difference the number of turns to set up).

    For this reason I do think Hitmonlee's Meditate and other setup moves should get full credit.

    X ATK + Recover < Meditate + Hyper Potion because Hyper Potion can be outside of battle.

    I'm not sure if the rest of the people in this topic would agree, but "no healing" and "no X items" sound like two different things. You don't heal if you're restricting yourself, while abstaining from X items just seems like good taste, but suitable in speedrunning or those Caterpie solos or whatever.
  14. Mekkah

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    Feb 8, 2005
    I think using X-items to break something like a stalemate is fine, because I think the stalemates are a silly thing to penalize for anyway. I dunno if that's me being too inconsistent. Obviously there's a difference between using an X-item to speed up a single match-up and allowing X-items to be spammed everywhere.
  15. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    Aug 16, 2007
    Yeah, sitting there waiting for a special fall is silly and inefficient when I could just X Special starmie and kill zam with ease.

    Anything that takes more than say, 5 turns to kill an opponent, isn't doing it efficiently. Otherwise, we'd give Venusaur's Leech Seed + Toxic more viability. We have long held in these threads that killing quickly is important to efficiency.

    Sorry, but that's just silly. Frankly, Potions and healing items sharply change our perception of a Pokemon's durability on a route or even in an individual battle, just as X items alter our perception of a Pokemon's performance in a given battle.

    Due to their ease of access and cheapness, there's no real reason to think of X items as any less viable in-game than healing items.

    I seriously think that if we want to rank Pokemon's viability without considering at all how X-items affect their performance, we should consider the Pokes without ANY item support (except maybe renewable ones like Pokeflute).

    This makes frail Pokes like Hitmonlee significantly worse-- as they should be considered. Barely survive 2 hits to set up meditate and pull through with Hyper Potion should not be rewarded more than X-Special starmie and have it recover off the damage.

    If set up attacks should really be given a lot of props, than Pokemon like Snorlax that can do it without any item support should get even more props.

    Take this hypothetical scenario:
    Let's say it was possible to get a level 5 Staryu + Water Stone in Pallet Town. Would you evolve it then and there, or wait for it to get Recover? In in-game logic, there's almost no practical reason to wait to evolve, because why bother waiting for Recover when you can just heal with items?

    In the same sense, why should I care if something learns Meditate when I can use X-Attack on anything?
    In terms of practically and efficiently playing through in-game, both healing and x-items are so freely available that it almost doesn't matter if Pokes learn recovery or boosting moves in terms of overall performance.
  16. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Orange Islands

    Dec 26, 2008
    This has long been an argument for me in tiering threads. Why is a Pokemon's own recovery move better than a healing item? I always contest when people say something is whatever tier because it has access to Recover/Milk Drink/Heal Order etc. It doesn't make sense to me.

    In regards to the Pokemon at this section, I pretty much agree with all of them, except maybe Yellow Squirtle, which I think should probably be a littler lower because it comes comparatively late and is of lower level... If you bought the Magikarp at Mt Moon you'd be in much better shape imo.
  17. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

    Oct 12, 2012
    Recovery Moves are a waste of a moveslot in-game simply because of the ease of getting Lemonades, which more often than not, heal more than your recovery move.

    I disagree with your point about Magikarp. It sucks up experience and isn't at all useful until you get to Level 20. Give Squirtle the Bubblebeam TM and it's happy and useful the whole time.
  18. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    tbh items really turn in-game into a joke because you can ease prediction pretty easily just by abusing revives/hyper potions, etc. the only healing move that can possibly be remotely useful is rest snorlax but hyper potion is still going to 100% heal snorlax at level 30-40sth. the biggest one of all is x-accuracy+horn drill combo which is just wtf-worthy...

    consider the following:

    you are up against pokemon A. you have pokemon B who OHKOs, you have pokemon C who needs to setup for a turn before OHKO, you have pokemon D who needs to setup for a turn but has suspect durability to even survive 1 turn. clearly, B > C > D.

    honestly though, let's consider this: you're up against a lapras, you have starmie and dewgong. starmie can OHKO with psychic after an x-special, dewgong can x-accuracy derp. seeing as both can easily tank a hit from lapras and can KO after 1 turn of boosting, shouldn't this put both starmie and dewgong at the same level?
  19. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio Over9000
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    Aug 16, 2007
    ^The thing with setup is it not only affects how you handle the 1st one, but all the Pokemon after.

    If Pokemon C, after that one turn of setup, can 6-0 the enemy, where as Pokemon B can't, that's saying something important too. A reason that Dewgong is potentially a lot more lethal than starmie in your above example.

    In any case, I guess it would still "be logical" if we assume "NO item support" for all Pokemon in tiering (putting potions and x items both in a forbidden fruit category). But-- honestly that goes against the whole spirit of in-game-- it's in-game, as these items are. If we say the affects of items is banned from the tiering, that's like effectively putting on a Nuzelocke-esque limitation on the player; ie. we'd be making a tiering list NOT for a true efficient in-game run, but more for our own item-banned Nuzlocke-like thing.

    To make a true tiering system really in line with the "spirit of in-game," it makes a lot more sense to me for all Pokemon to all "have FULL item support," ie. assume potions/x-item support up the wazoo-- because they're cheap and easily available. That's the reality, and actual in-game performance will be affected by the tremendous availability of these items, so our tiering should be based on their availability.

    Pokemon who can abuse x-items better, should probably be put in a higher tier if you want to have a true semblance of in-game performance. Pokemon who get 1 step boost moves like Meditate and healing moves like Recover probably shouldn't get much props (if any) for it, and Pokes that get moves like Agility / SD, only a little props. Amnesia is kind of in its own league, though it's technically the same as having 2 X-Special, so maybe just mediocre props...
  20. atsync

    atsync Where the "intelligence" of TRAINERS is put to the test!
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Contributor to Smogon

    Mar 28, 2011
    I've decided that all 6 of these Pokemon will stay in High too. There were a few comments about possible moves for certain Pokemon but nothing gained any real momentum so yeah.

    Changes (open)
    • Just need to remove informal language littered through the analysis ("lol", "rape", etc.)
    • Change Sabrina match-up so that it doesn't imply that a Starmie vs. Alakazam stalemate will happen 100% of the time, because it won't. It might, but the analysis should make this clearer. Probably worth noting that Starmie's Speed and Psychic resistance gives it an edge against Sabrina compared to many of the other Water types.


    So let's move on to new Pokemon. We're going into Mid tier now.

    As usual:
    • Is this Pokemon in the right tier? If you disagree, say which tier you think it should be moved to. You'll need to give reasons of course.
    • Does the entry written for the Pokemon cover everything that needs to be covered? The whole point of the entries is to provide a convincing case for the Pokemon being in the tier they are in. Therefore, we need to make sure the entries cover why a Pokemon is good or bad. If you think something important is missing, speak up and we can add this information. Likewise, if you think an entry contains information that isn't particularly relevant, say so and we can remove the fluff.
    If there is a clear consensus about disagreement with where a Pokemon is tiered, I'll move it and a new entry may need to be written (note that in some cases, simple edits of the current analysis to change the overall tone may suffice).

    The next Pokemon up will be:
    • Bellsprout
    Bellsprout (open)
    -Bellsprout (Blue and Yellow only) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Bellsprout can be caught as early as Route 24. This is convenient because this is around the same time as the Misty battle, where it acts as one of the better counters to her. It ranges from level 12-14, which isn’t a complete disaster. It evolves at level 21 and then again using a Leaf Stone.
    -Stats: The Bellsprout family has a focus on offense. Bellsprout actually starts with decent 75 Attack and 70 Special. Once fully evolved, Victreebel sports impressive 105 Attack and 100 Special, backed up by a usable 70 Speed. It’s only remotely poor stat is Defence, but it doesn’t really harm Victreebel much in-game.
    -Movepool: This is probably where Victreebel suffers a bit. It basically has the same movepool as Venusaur, but it takes longer to get its best moves. Razor Leaf is the best Grass type attack in the game, but it comes quite late. In fact, it may be better to prevent Bellsprout from evolving for a while so it can get it at level 33. In the meantime, you’ll be using Vine Whip and Wrap as your main offense. Bellsprout also gets the status powders early, which is helpful for a while until it gets Razor Leaf to kill things. It gets Growth early as well, and it can potential run a boosting set with Sleep Powder and Mega Drain. Although this isn't as immediately as powerful as Razor Leaf spam, it does do better against certain trainers and it allows you to fully evolve sooner. Beyond its grass STAB, it gets Body Slam but only as Victreebel, so you won’t be able to get it until Celadon City. You may prefer to use Double-Edge instead (or in the meantime). It also gets Acid, but it is very weak. Acid does seem useful in theory to cover Bug and Grass types, but a large number of them have secondary typings that remove the weakness, making this irrelevant.
    -Power: Bellsprout is ok for a while but it will struggle against anything that resists Grass, especially before it gets a strong Normal attack. It doesn’t really take off until Razor Leaf and Body Slam/Double-Edge come along. Even then, it will still suffer a bit from having its strongest STAB resisted by many opponents, although there are many opponents that don’t and Razor Leaf is brutal against them.
    -Type: As an offensive type, Grass is very hit-and-miss. Grass has coverage against some important types (Water, Ground and Rock), but it is resisted by common Poison, Bug, Grass, Fire, and Flying types (as well as the less common Dragon). Weaknesses to Fire, Flying, Psychic, Bug and Ice are irritating as well. Victreebel may need to be a bit more selective about what to take on if it wants to avoid damage, but Grass definitely has its uses.
    -Match-ups: Misty – This match-up is one of the best reasons to use Bellsprout. Resisting BubbleBeam makes this quite a bit easier and with STAB Vine Whip on your side you can’t afford to lose. Just make sure you are at a reasonable level, although this shouldn’t be a problem.
    Lt. Surge – Another good match-up in RB. Electric resistance allows you to take Thunderbolt from Raichu, and if you can stop that then you can stop the others. Don’t get reckless in Yellow though. Raichu’s Mega Kick and Mega Punch are brutal. You may need to try a status move to win.
    Erika – This isn’t a great match-up for either side. However, Victreebel can work out well here. Grass resistance and Body Slam from 105 Attack is potent, and being immune to PoisonPowder can provide free turns in RB assuming she is stupid. You are still vulnerable to Sleep Powder and Stun Spore, but you have those on your side as well. If you are still Bellsprout/Weepinbell, you can try the same thing with Double-Edge over Body Slam, but it isn’t as effective.
    Koga – You aren’t really useful here. His Pokémon resist Grass and high Defence allows them to take Body Slam (especially Weezing and Muk). Of course, they have terrible movesets so they can’t really do too much back, so you can “win” if you must use Victreebel. In Yellow, Body Slam is a more potent weapon, but they can hit you with Psychic moves. Venomoth is pretty much the only threatening Pokémon on his team though.
    Sabrina – Stay away. Super-Effective Psychic moves make this a battle that Victreebel should sit out. Still, Body Slam from 105 Attack is powerful against her frail Pokémon, so you may be able to take some of them out.
    Blaine – Another gym that you aren’t that useful in. In RB, you can beat Growlithe and Ponyta, but Fire Blast from Arcanine is devastating to Victreebel. In Yellow, Growlithe and Ponyta have been replaced by a Ninetales with Flamethrower, making the match-up even worse.
    Giovanni – This is the first gym in a while where you have a good match-up. Razor Leaf dispatches of Rhyhorn, Rhydon, Dugtrio and Persian. Nidoqueen and Nidoking aren’t weak to Grass but can be beaten.
    Lorelei – Razor Leaf is super effective against most of her team (and Jynx hates Body Slam from 105 Attack) but then you are weak to Psychic and Ice attacks. A Growth boosting set may actually do better here than Razor Leaf spam, and although it isn't the absolute best choice it can get the job done. Use it if you want, but have a back-up ready.
    Bruno – You destroy Onix, and Razor Leaf hits his Fighting types hard as well. You also resist Fighting, so this is a good match-up overall.
    Agatha – You are kind of useless here. You really can’t do anything to her Ghosts, and although you can beat Golbat and Arbok with Body Slam an attempt to do so may result in confusion or paralysis.
    Lance – His Dragon types resist Grass. Relying on Body Slam probably won’t be enough for a clean sweep, but Razor Leaf should be enough for Aerodactyl. In Yellow, you have to watch out for Ice, Fire and Flying moves.
    Blue – Using its resistances, and Razor Leaf and Body Slam, you can beat Rhydon, Exeggutor, Blastoise, Venusaur, Sandslash, Cloyster, Vaporeon, Magneton and Jolteon. Just watch out for Ice moves from the Water types, and Pin Missile from Jolteon.

    -Additional Comments: This is pretty much the best Grass type if you don’t go with Bulbasaur, and in Yellow it gives Bulbasaur some serious competition because of the nerf Bulbasaur got in its availability. It is a useful Pokémon thanks to its good stats and the sheer power of Razor Leaf, but tends to be hit-and-miss thanks to its somewhat limited movepool, and unlike RB Bulbasaur it doesn’t provide a no-drawbacks win condition against Brock and Misty.

    • Bulbasaur (Y)
    Bulbasaur (Y) (open)
    Bulbasaur (Yellow) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Given to you in Cerulean City, at level 10. Keep in mind that to get it, you need Pikachu to have high happiness.
    -Stats: Decent all around, with good Special.
    -Movepool: It starts off without any STAB moves, meaning you're not exactly doing well with it until it gets to level 13, when it gets Vine Whip, which has a staggering 35 base power and a shocking 10 PP. However, 17 levels (assuming you evolved it, which you should've) later, it gains access to the far superior Razor Leaf, which is better than Vine Whip in every way. Aside from that, keep in mind that it's a Grass-type that can't use Stun Spore or Sleep Powder (although it can learn Sleep Powder, it doesn't get the chance until level 55, and you should've beaten the game by then). Body Slam is quite helpful for those who aren't hit super-effectively by Vine Whip, but keep in mind that you're using up an exclusive TM, and resisted Razor Leaf does around the same amount of damage (assuming criticals and a 2x resistance, of course).
    -Power: Since you get it at the measly level 10, when the rest of your party should be at least level 15, Bulbasaur is underlevelled when you get it, and it can't really do anything to anybody until it learns Vine Whip. Early evolution is helpful, but it'll eventually fall behind again, specifically after you get through Rock Tunnel, as seemingly half the trainers have a Pokemon that resists Vine Whip. Body Slam can help, as it has notably more Base Power than Vine Whip. Once it learns Razor Leaf, expect things to take a turn for the better, and thanks to evolving again 2 levels after that, Venusaur will pulverize everything that doesn't resist Grass, and even some things that do. Once you get to the water routes, it'll be smooth sailing for Venusaur.
    -Type: Grass is useful until you get through Rock Tunnel, and picks up again when you get finish Silph. Shame its secondary typing doesn't really do much to help it aside from making it neutral to Poison and immune to Poison (status), as it gives almost no extra coverage and also adds a weakness to Psychic.
    Misty: Assuming you went to see Bill first, you should be fine, because of Ivysaur's good (at the time) Special combined with its type advantage should give you an easy victory. Don't use it against her if you just got it, though, because of a severe level disadvantage as well as the fact that Bulbasaur doesn't know any Grass-type moves (ignoring the useless Leech Seed) when you get it.
    Lt. Surge: Not quite as easy as Misty, as his Raichu knows Mega Kick and has a solid Attack stat to back it up.
    Erika: Seeing as how her entire team resists Grass-type moves (in fact, Weepinbell and Gloom resist Razor Leaf with the critical factored in), and 2 of her Pokemon know Sleep Powder, using Ivysaur against her is not recommended.
    Koga: His team resists Razor Leaf even with criticals factored in, and they all know Psychic. Even though they don't get STAB from it, his weakest Pokemon is level 44.
    Sabrina: Beating her Abra without taking any damage isn't notable, as even a Magikarp could do it. Her other Pokemon have high Special, are level 50, and get STAB on Psychic, which means you'll have to rely on them using Psywave and getting low damage rolls as you Body Slam them.
    Blaine: Venusaur can take a Fire Blast if necessary, but don't expect it to take repeated uses of it.
    Giovanni: All of his Pokemon (minus Persian, who has Slash which is still quite powerful) know Earthquake, which can leave a dent in Venusaur, but all of them are OHKOed by Razor Leaf, barring the Nidos.
    Lorelei: 4 of her Pokemon are weak to Razor Leaf, but Lapras can take a hit, while Jynx outright outspeeds Venusaur, allowing both of them to attack it with Blizzard and Ice Punch, respectively.
    Bruno: *insert sentence here about his Onix getting destroyed by even Vine Whip* Overall, his Pokemon have low Special, and Venusaur resists Fighting, and both of these things mean that your Venusaur should have little trouble dealing with him.
    Agatha: Her Ghosts are a nightmare, as they have high Special, are resistant to Grass-type moves, and are immune to Normal. Her Golbat 4x resists Razor Leaf, meaning that you're best off using Venusaur against her Arbok or not at all.
    Lance: Venusaur can beat Gyarados 1-on-1, but is defeated by his first Dragonair, Aerodactyl, and Dragonite. Not much else to say here.
    Gary: Sandslash, Cloyster, Magneton, and Jolteon (keep an eye out for Pin Missile, though) are the only things Venusaur has a likely victory against on its own. If you have the Poke Flute with you (which you should) and taught Venusaur Body Slam, you can add Exeggutor to that list, as it doesn't know any Psychic-type moves. The reason why it can't easily beat his other Pokemon can be explained as such: Alakazam has a type advantage (not to mention the fact that it's Alakazam), Ninetales knows Fire Spin and Confuse Ray, Vaporeon has great special bulk and knows Aurora Beam, and Flareon knows Fire Spin and Flamethrower.

    -Additional Comments: Bulbasaur has a (very) weak start, and only ascends to "average" until it learns Razor Leaf and evolves again. When those things happen, expect OHKOes on everything that doesn't resist it, and even a few that do. Keep in mind, however, that you need to baby it for the first few levels, and it can't really do anything in places like Lavender Tower.

    • Drowzee
    Drowzee (open)
    Drowzee - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Drowzee are at Route 11, at levels 9-15 in Red and Blue and at 15-19 in Yellow. The chance of finding them is 1-in-4, so you don't have to worry about scouring the Route for hours on end looking for them. They evolve at level 26, which is when you should be either fighting the last trainers on the S.S. Anne or approaching Rock Tunnel.
    -Stats: Unfortunately, Drowzee's uncomfortably slow and (physically) weak. Thankfully, its impressive Special makes up for its Speed somewhat. When Drowzee evolves, it can outspeed most Pokemon in the game that aren't considerably fast (or in the possession of a Gym Leader/Elite Four member). Its Special also gets a nice boost, and its increased Defense means that if it fails to OHKO its opponent (which is a fair assumption considering how late it gets Psychic), it won't have to worry about counterattacks as much.
    -Movepool: Unless you're playing Yellow and caught it at level 17 or higher, Drowzee won't know Confusion, having only the pathetic Pound with which to harm others. Headbutt is usable, but is only useful for fellow Psychic-types, as they usually have high Special and resist Psychic-type attacks, not to mention Hypno's Special is far greater than its Attack. Also, Hypno doesn't learn Psychic naturally until level 37, so teaching it that via TM29 isn't completely unreasonable. Drowzee also knows Hypnosis from the moment you catch it, but its unreliable accuracy means that it's far from necessary.
    -Power: As mentioned above, Drowzee won't know Confusion until level 17, so until then, it has to 6HKO its enemies with Pound. Once it knows Confusion, it starts to do adequately, and when it evolves, it gets even better, but despite this, its Confusion has a tendency not to OHKO things that aren't weak to it. Psychic, whether it be at level 37 or when you first enter Saffron City, fixes this problem and allows it to deal heavy damage to anything that's not a fellow Psychic-type. Unfortunately, Hypno doesn't do as well as Mr. Mime or Abra in Pokemon Tower, mainly due to it being slower than the numerous Gastly and Haunter, and some of them tend to go for the Confuse Ray on the first turn, and their high Special allows them to survive a Confusion more often than not.
    -Type: Psychic is well known for being the best type back in the day, and not having a second type isn't the end of the world, as Psychic-type attacks have great coverage on their own, only being resisted by fellow Psychic-types, who can't do much to Hypno in return.
    -Match-ups: While you could just use Hypnosis against everybody, these match-ups will assume you don't use it.
    --Lt. Surge: You can handle him in Red and Blue if Drowzee's evolved by this point. In Yellow, however, Mega Punch and Mega Kick leave marks regardless of whether it's a Drowzee or Hypno you're using.
    --Erika: Victreebel/Weepinbell is faster than Hypno and can trap it continuously with Wrap. The rest of her team is much easier to deal with, just watch out for Sleep Powder. Getting Hypno statused prior to the battle, which shouldn't be too much of a problem considering the fact that half of the Gym's trainers know status-inducing moves, prevents the threat of Sleep Powder and allows Gloom/Vileplume to be pulverized. Keep in mind that if Hypno gets paralyzed, it's vulnerable to Bind from Tangela.
    --Koga: Hypno should have Psychic by this point, but even Confusion has enough power to OHKO his Koffings. Psychic, however, is needed to OHKO his Muk and Weezing, and greatly helps its performance against him in Yellow, although it never really struggles against him in the first place.
    --Sabrina: Hypno resists Psychic-type attacks, causing Sabrina's Pokemon to use everything but Psychic-type moves, allowing Hypno to Headbutt them until they're down. Alakazam, though, is a problem, as Recover its its only non-Psychic-type attack, meaning it will endlessly spam it, healing off more than Headbutt will do. There are 2 possible solutions to this, but neither are efficient: the first being to use Disable (which Hypno knows when you catch it) and hope it disables Recover, or to use Meditate (which is learned at level 43) so Headbutt does more than Recover heals.
    --Blaine: Fire Spin is annoying, as is Confuse Ray from Ninetales (only appears in Yellow), but Hypno does decently against him otherwise.
    --Giovanni: Everything on his team, save for Persian in Yellow and Dugtrio. Hypno can beat them one-on-one, but not both of them in the same match.
    --Lorelei: Hypno doesn't do too poorly against her, but Slowbro and Lapras can comfortably take whatever Hypno throws at them.
    --Bruno: Ignoring the Onix because they're terrible, Hypno can take on all of his Fighting-types, at least assuming Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee don't use Mega Punch and Mega Kick, respectively.
    --Agatha: Her Ghosts and Golbat know Confuse Ray and are faster than Hypno, potentially leading to a very frustrating battle.
    --Lance: Hypno can take a Hyper Beam from his Dragonair, but nothing else on his team. As such, Hypno can beat one of his Dragonair, but good luck defeating anything else on his team with it.
    --Rival: To make things short: Pidgeot, Rhydon, and Venusaur are easily beaten. Hypno vs. Alakazam results in a stalemate, due to Alakazam's only Normal-type attack being Recover. Exeggutor can be beaten, but it'll take a while. Arcanine, Magneton, Vaporeon, and Jolteon can be troublesome but still manageable provided Hypno doesn't take too much damage against others. Finally, Fire Spin and Clamp make Ninetales and Cloyster infuriating, and Sandslash's, Gyarados's, and Flareon's Attack makes having Hypno fight them inadvisable.

    -Additional Comments: Drowzee is a good Pokemon, but one who has competition with Abra and Mr. Mime, the former of which comes earlier and has better stats, and the latter gains boosted exp due to being a traded Pokemon. However, Drowzee is much easier to obtain than its competition, as Abra Teleports away on the first turn and Mr. Mime requires either an Abra or a Clefairy, depending on the version, while Drowzee has a decent chance to appear and it doesn't Teleport away from battle. Of course, its forgettable start also hampers it somewhat, but its solid match-ups against the game's bosses makes up for it.

    • Electabuzz
    Electabuzz (open)
    -Electabuzz (Red only) - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Electabuzz can only be found at the Power Plant, meaning you need to have beaten Koga to access it, and you need to noticeably out of the way, as you can't directly Fly to Route 10's Pokemon Center like you can in later generations. Electabuzz themselves aren't the most common encounter (5%) and they can tend to be more stubborn than others when it comes to actually being caught, on par with that of Onix. Also, Electabuzz appear at levels 33-36.
    -Stats: Statistically, Electabuzz is very similar to Raichu, but with (slightly) better Speed at the cost of some Attack. This poses a problem for Electabuzz, as Raichu can be caught as early as Viridian Forest (as a Pikachu, of course), which is before the first Gym, while Electabuzz is completely unavailable until after the fifth.
    -Movepool: Electabuzz's movepool is slightly larger than that of fellow Electric-types and includes moves such as Thunderpunch (which is essentially a weaker but still Thunderbolt) and Psychic. Electabuzz also learns dual screens, but it has to wait until level 49 for Light Screen, and you should either be fighting the Elite Four or have beaten the game by that point.
    -Power: If given Thunderbolt, Electabuzz acts almost entirely the same as Raichu would, due to their similar stats and typing, but if given Psychic, Electabuzz suddenly has the ability to OHKO every Grunt's Poison-types, something Raichu could not hope to do without a crit. Of course, the schools of Water-types are no match for an Electabuzz that knows Thunderpunch, which it should know by that point.
    -Type: Electabuzz comes at a time when Water-types are quite commonplace, which is good for Electabuzz considering it's an Electric-type.
    -Match-ups: These match-ups are all assuming you taught Electabuzz Psychic, as all it has for offense is Quick Attack, Thundershock, and Thunderpunch otherwise.
    --Sabrina: Electabuzz isn't sweeping her any time soon, but it can beat at least 2 of her Pokemon most of the time.
    --Blaine: Electabuzz can beat Growlithe and Ponyta easily, and occasionally Rapidash depending on how much damage it (Electabuzz) took against Blaine's previous two Pokemon.
    --Giovanni: How well Electabuzz does against Giovanni depends on whether you taught it Psychic or not: if you did, it can do respectably against his entire team except for Dugtrio, but it has absolutely no chance against him if it doesn't know Psychic.
    --Lorelei: Jynx's neutrality to Electric-type attacks and Lapras's immense special bulk allow them to take on Electabuzz, but the rest of Lorelei's team easily falls. Just make sure you don't allow Slowbro to get more than one Amnesia up, though!
    --Bruno: This fight is very similar to Giovanni: If Electabuzz knows Psychic, it wins. If it doesn't, it can beat Hitmonchan and maybe Hitmonlee, but has some trouble with Machamp and (embarassingly) can't touch his 2 Onix.
    --Agatha: each of her Ghosts can stomach a Psychic, and their naturally high Speed allows each of them (with the possible exception of Haunter) to Confuse Electabuzz or put it to sleep. Golbat and Arbok on the other hand are jokes.
    --Lance: Gyarados is completely fried, as is Aerodactyl if it uses Take Down, Leer, or Fly rather than Hyper Beam or Supersonic. Electabuzz can't do much else to Lance's team, unfortunately.
    --Rival: Pidgeot, Gyarados, Cloyster, and possibly Vaporeon and Blastoise are all (predictably) beaten, but Electabuzz doesn't exactly excel against anything else on his team, save for Rhydon if it knows Psychic.

    -Additional Comments: Electabuzz is an adequate Pokemon, one with a good typing for the time in the game it's caught as well as being unique in that it's one of the very few Generation I Electric-types who don't need Thunderbolt thanks to its exclusive access to Thunderpunch. However, Electabuzz suffers from having solid competition from Raichu, who has similar stats but can be obtained earlier, and Zapdos, who is in the same area as Electabuzz but has a much higher level and better stats all around. Electabuzz's main niche in all of this is its exclusive (for Electric-types, at least) access to Psychic and Thunderpunch, eliminating its need for Thunderbolt (as mentioned above) that all other Electric-types demand. In other words, if you're not going to teach Electabuzz Psychic, don't use it, as other Electric-types can do its job better otherwise.

    • Flareon
    Flareon (open)
    Flareon - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Flareon is given to you as a level 25 Eevee, and can be evolved via a Fire Stone, which costs an easily affordable 2100 Poke.
    -Stats: Flareon not only posesses high attacking stats on both ends of the spectrum, but it also has enough speed to outpace anything that isn't particularly fast or is used by a Gym Leader/Elite Four member. Its Defense and HP do let it down, though.
    -Movepool: Flareon starts off with Tackle (Quick Attack in Yellow) as its most powerful move, which makes Body Slam an option to be considered. However, Flareon learns an adequate move a few levels after obtaining it (Bite at level 30 in Yellow and Ember at level 31 in Red and Blue), but Body Slam should still be at least considered, as its extra base power nets it OHKOes where Bite and Ember do not. Of course, being a Fire-type, Flareon has TM access to Fire Blast, and considering the fact that all Flareon learns in terms of attacks are either Fire-type or Normal-type moves (unless you're actually counting the pathetic Smog as a usable attack), Flareon will easily have space for it. Also, Flareon learns Fire Spin at level 42 (level 36 in Yellow), but while Fire Spin's trapping effect might seem appealing at first glance, it slows the game's progress immensly, making it not recommended.
    -Power: As mentioned above, before it learns Ember/Bite (and also assuming that you didn't teach it Body Slam), it has a noticable lack of power and as such has trouble early on when you first get it. Once it learns Ember/Bite, its combat abilities improve considerably, but its low combined Defense and HP cause its health to wear down quickly, and more often than not, it generally ends up being the first Pokemon in your party to faint. When the water routes come along, Flareon predictably has a bit of a rough time, but its incredible Attack allows it to fend for itself better than an Arcanine or Ninetales would. Also, teaching it Body Slam helps it out greatly, allowing it to achieve multiple OHKOes that Bite and Ember can't.
    -Type: Fire typing, while helpful in Celadon and against the random Grass-type user, doesn't really stand out anywhere else, and causes it to have trouble late-game, where Water-types are abundant.
    --Erika: Her Victreebel happens to be faster than you and knows Wrap. Thankfully, her Tangela and Vileplume happen to be slower than you and thanks to RBY's AI, they will never use Mega Drain or Petal Dance against you, as it would be not very effective, thus allowing Flareon to Bite (or better yet, Ember) its way through her team.
    --Koga: Let's face it. While Ember's power is enough to cut it against the average trainer, it's just not enough to so much as 3HKO his Muk or Weezing. Things might seem better in Yellow at first glance, with his entire team being weak to Fire-type attacks and weak overall, but the problem is that Flareon's only Fire-type attack at that point in the game is Fire Spin, which burns time more efficiently than Koga's multiple Venonat.
    --Sabrina: By this time, Flareon should be high enough in level that it can withstand 2 Psybeams from her Pokemon, and Bite should be doing more to Kadabra than Recover heals. Flareon can also beat Alakazam if it knows Body Slam, but only if it paralyzes it. In Yellow, however, Flareon would need to be lucky to beat her Kadabra by itself, and this is assuming it knows Body Slam!
    --Blaine: Thanks to RBY's AI as mentioned above, Blaine's Pokemon will never use a single Fire-type attack against Flareon. It still has to watch out for Rapidash's Stomp and Arcanine's Take Down, with the former being faster than Flareon, thus giving Stomp the chance at flinching Flareon, and the latter coming off of a respectable Attack stat. Still, Flareon should be able to beat every Pokemon on his team, with the possible exception of Arcanine, with little worry.
    --Giovanni: Flareon can't do much to Rhyhorn or Rhydon without wasting Fire Blast's PP, which isn't enough to deal with both of them. Also, every one of Giovanni's Pokemon (except Persian) threatens Flareon in Yellow, thanks all of them knowing Earthquake, but regardless of version, Flareon flat out loses to Dugtrio. Thankfully, the Nidos are manageable in Red and Blue.
    --Lorelei: Simply put, the only Pokemon of hers you should even consider having Flareon fight is Jynx. It falls on its face against anybody else.
    --Bruno: The 2 Onix he has aren't worth wasting Fire Blast's PP. Let somebody else deal with them. Fire Blast OHKOes both of the Hitmons, but Machamp can stomach a blast. Keep in mind though that his Hitmons are faster than Flareon.
    --Agatha: Flareon can't do much to her Ghosts, thanks to their having a Special that is enough to take minor damage from even Fire Blast combined with an immunity to Normal-type attacks. Her Golbat and Arbok are both faster than Flareon and can withstand a Fire Blast, but outside of status, Golbat (and Arbok in Red and Blue) won't be doing much back.
    --Lance: Flareon won't be doing much of anything this fight, as all of them not only resist Fire Blast, Flareon's main attack, but they all know Hyper Beam, which does a large amount of damage to whatever doesn't resist it or have respectable Defense, and simply put, Flareon does not fit either of the above criteria.
    --Rival: Pidgeot, Exeggutor, and Venusaur are all easily beaten. Flareon can potentially beat Alakazam, but it needs Body Slam and don't expect it to do much else, as Psychic can easily wear it down, and the same goes with Jolteon. Also, unless you're using it as fodder (which I hope you're not), Flareon should never go up against Gyarados, Cloyster, or Blastoise, for obvious reasons.

    -Additional comments: While Flareon isn't much of a help against the game's major battles, its performance against the trainers after Pokemon Tower (as well as doing better against Water-types than its non-Charmander competition) makes up for it, and makes Flareon an acceptable choice for a spot on your team.

    • Geodude
    Geodude (open)
    Geodude - Mid Tier
    -Availability: Early! Comes after Mount Moon and is the first OU family you will meet. Evolves quickly, reaching Graveler (and immediately Golem by trade) at level 25.
    -Stats: The Geoddude''s stats are kind of a mixed bag. While boasting great Attack and Defense stats, it also comes with a mediocre Special and Speed stat.
    -Movepool: For STAB Geodude learns Rock Throw and Earthquake by Learn-Up, or Rock Slide and Dig by TM, those are the only real moves Geodude needs as Rock/Ground is unresisted in RBY. Geodude doesn't start off with STAB moves, so giving him Mega Punch can help in the earlier game.
    -Power: Thanks to a high Attack stat and fantastic coverage, Geodude can hit anything hard, provided they don't OHKO him before he attacks.
    -Type: Much like his stats, his typing is a mixed bag. While Rock/Ground grants him a resistance to Normal, Flying, Poison, Fire, & Electric, it also makes him weak to Fighting, Ice, Water, Grass, and Ground.
    --Misty: As Geodude is quadruply weak to Water moves and has low Special, even Staryu will be too much for Geodude to handle.
    --Lt. Surge: Thanks to his immunity to Electric and resistance to Normal, Geodude walls this entire gym.
    --Erika: Golem's quadruply weakness to Grass and low speed means Golem shouldn't even be fighting the trainers in this gym.
    --Koga: Golem's Earthquake/Dig and resistances to Sludge and Explosion make it basically unstoppable here. In Yellow, this match is harder due to the omnipresence of Psychic moves hitting Golem on his low Special, but all of Koga's Pokemon in Yellow are weak to Rock Slide.
    --Sabrina: Alakazam outspeeds and overwhelms Golem.
    --Blaine: Golem resists Fire and his can destroys Blaine's Pokemon with Earthquake. However, Golem is also slower than Blaine's Pokemon and his Fire moves hit Golem on his lower Special. A Fire Blast burn can put Golem in a major predicament.
    --Giovanni: In RB, Golem sweeps his entire team except for Dugtrio who can use Dig to dodge Earthquake (Gen I Dig is unaffected by Earthquake). In Yellow, Golem can beat the newly added Persian, but will have an overall harder time sweeping due to Ground moves being omnipresent in this match.
    --Lorelei: All of her Pokemon outspeed Golem and can hit him with a Super Effective move.
    --Bruno: Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, and Machamp all hit you for super effective damage. In Yellow, the Onyx's can also hurt you with Dig / Earthquake. Although Golem's defense and Hitmonchan's low Special means Golem can contribute to this battle, it wont be able to sweep like a Water or Psychic type would.
    --Agatha: You definitely have the advantage of typing, but the difference in Speed... be prepared for a long bout of annoyance by Confusion, Sleep, Paralysis and Poison if you try to defeat her with Golem. In Yellow, the first Gengar has Mega Drain (instant death) and the second has Psychic (close to instant death). Again, Golem can contribute, but can't sweep as well as a Psychic type would.
    --Lance: In RB, Golem can trounce everything besides Hydro Pump Gyarados. In Yellow, not only does Gyarados still OHKO you, but now he has a Dragonair with Ice Beam and a Dragonite with Blizzard.
    --Rival: Golem beats Pidgeot, Rhydon, Fire-types, Electric-types, and Exeggcutor. Don't bother with anything else.
    -Additional Comments: In competitive RBY, Rock/Ground is essential, with Rhydon or Golem being on every team, and Rhyhorn appears horribly late in-game, making Golem your only real choice. However, while their ability to flat-out wall Zapdos and other opponents on the competitive scene is useful, Golem's horribly slow Speed and awful Special handicaps it against a good portion of opponents in-game, starting with Misty and Erika and becoming increasingly bad as more Water- and Ice-type users appear later. It's low Special means it's outright destroyed by Psychic-type users as well. Golem has great stats, moves, and completely destroys many opponents, but there are so many that also destroy it. Early game, it's no better than the Nidos (who appear early, are immune to Poison status and are useful throughout the game), and late game, it's outclassed by Water/Psychic types, who destroy the enemy Ground / Rock / Fire / Poison types more easily. If you real hate enemy Self Destruct / Explosion users though, it's a solid choice.

    No water this time! Discuss whatever you want.
  21. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Sep 25, 2005
    I disagree that its limited in movepool in comparison to Venusaur, being that it gets Sleep Powder & Growth at a viable level. I actually preferred evolving him straight away and using Mega Drain over Razor Leaf, as Body Slam from a huge attack stat was good enough against regular trainers. I remember I did mention to you about that once, did you ever get around to trying it?

    Also, if we are gonna give RB Bulbasaur a free pass against Lance due to his Dragons not attacking, then so should Bellsprout in retrospective.
  22. Mekkah

    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    I think this should emphasize that Earthquake OHKOs everything except Golbat, which is probably OHKO'd by Rock Slide.
  23. Reaver12


    Mar 27, 2009
    Shouldn't the combination of the Dream Eater TM and Hypnosis be at least mentioned in the Drowzee analysis? Yes, it's awful competitively but we all know the AI won't switch out. You can get it as soon as you have Fly (or very early if you make the trip to get Flash), and it really ups Drowzee and Hypno's abilities to win important battles. It may not be the most efficient battle strategy, but it preserves the Psychic TM as it can at the very least work until Hypno learns Psychic naturally. I still agree with it's ranking, but it irked me that Dream Eater wasn't mentioned.

    This should especially be included, given the debate about using X items and Healing items in ranking.
  24. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom Paralysis is slightly less of a devil
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Dec 5, 2012
    Relying on a 60% accurate move just to hit the enemy? No thanks.
  25. TM13IceBeam


    Oct 22, 2010
    It still kind of bugs me how Drowzee can't learn Dream Eater without TM.

    Dream Eater TM isn't a good argument anyway :X Honestly 2 confusions hit harder on average iirc than 1 dream eater, and if the enemy isn't 2hko'd or something by confusion anyway you have quite the fair share of issues.

    On other mons:


    Is Light Screen really worth a mention? It might be, but idk.

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