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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, May 31, 2012.

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  1. Garud

    Garud

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    Ironically, Beedrill dies to any mid-tier pokemon with a neutral move. It's got the bulk of Alakazam with the HP of Dodrio. Although in this case, you would be pressed to find a pokemon that doesn't learn a move that hits Beedrill supereffectively. Psychic, Rock, Fire, Flying, Poison and Bug moves. That's 6/15 types that hit Beedrill for supereffective damage, and it only resists Fighting and Grass, neither are meaningful resistances.

    It's worth noting that there are only 7 pokemon with lower base attacks whose primary attacking stat is Attack rather than Special, with a lower base Attack stat than Beedrill (and they all get stronger STAB moves, and have generally better stats in other areas). And of those 7 pokemon, 5 are normal type (Clefable, Wigglytuff, Lickitung, Persian and Porygon) meaning they get STAB on Body Slam/Hyper Beam and many of them get status and utility moves. Of what's left, we have Onix (who is also terrible) and Farfetch'd (who excels as a HM slave). Everything else below it is a special attacker (Alakazam, Starmie, Omastar), and the vast majority of pokemon are faster.

    As a point of reference, Beedrill's base stats are the 3rd lowest of any fully-evolved pokemon, beating out only Farfetch'd and Ditto, and tying with Butterfree (who has more utility to help you catch pokemon). It's only pro is that you get it close to the beginning and it evolves quickly, but the starters evolve 5 levels later, you get them earlier and have better STAB moves and versatility. You essentially shouldn't be using Beedrill once you have reached Lt Surge.
  2. Carl

    Carl or Varl
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    Except that, the position you get Dewgong in the game sets him up to succeed. I just did this in the game: You can get Ponyta immediately setting foot in the Cinnabar Mansion. Walk out, go next door, trade for Seel. Teach it Surf. You still have a couple trainers in the Mansion you'll run into before getting the key to the gym. They use fire types which is an easy advantage. If you caught a level 34 Ponyta, congrats, you have Dewgong already after just one level. Blizzard TM is on your way to getting the gym key so there's your ice attack. The gym itself has 7 fire trainers plus Blaine that Dewgong can solo for experience. By the time you're done with one gym, you've already caught up in experience and probably then some (I'm OCD about levels and gave my other mons work so everyone was even). From there you head north and face Giovanni where there's 8 trainers + Boss Rocket. You don't have the type advantage against all the trainers with Dewgong, nor do you need to fight all of them, but it's easy experience and Surf/Blizzard are more than enough. Giovanni has 5 strong Pokemon that all fall to Dewgong's STABs.

    After 8 gym badges I have 5 pokemon at level 48, including Dewgong. Had I been playing this game less for my enjoyment and more to prove a point, I would probably only have 3 pokemon, including Dewgong, and would be in the mid to high 50s. But, hey, I'm already 5 levels ahead of the videos above and still have the many trainers in Victory Road that are weak to Dewgong's STABs. I'd say it's almost automatic to get to level 50 with Dewgong that you could consider it comparable.

    As I just hinted at, you don't need items against anyone except probably the elite 4. And there, its not really any different than what I do in any pokemon game.. Load up on Revives, Full Restores and Full Heals for a portable Nurse Joy after every battle. Blaine and Giovanni's gyms are cruise control with STAB Surf and Blizzard. The Horn Drill exploit is something I haven't even used yet. Ice and Water are good attacking types in this game that, with STAB, I don't need Horn Drill for the random Cooltrainers in Victory Road.

    Agreed, killing opponents 1 on 1 isn't the bottom line. Ease of capture, use, level up and learned moves all go into a pokemons value as a team member. Dewgong is plenty valuable in that regard. I didn't go out of my way to get Dewgong (have to enter the Mansion to proceed), didn't have to stop or slow down to baby it (in fact, I let it take charge immediately against Blaine's gym), only used 1 rare/valuable TM (Blizzard) and it was not a detriment to my progress (it only helped it). Of the waters you can get in this game, only the Squirtle line is easier to add to your roster while being effective immediately.
  3. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I'm kind of chuckling right now at the people in denial of Dewgong's dominance. Yes, Dewgong definitely belongs with the big boys. The only reason not to place it in Top would be because you think Blastoise and Charizard need a tier of their own or something.

    That said, the abuse of the X Accuracy exploit in these speedrun-ish videos sets a bit of a dangerous precedent when used to tier Pokemon. We should not turn this list into one of "what can solo the game the best", because even though that is the most efficient way, it does not allow for very good discussion since it makes everything cut and dry. That doesn't mean Dewgong isn't ridiculously good, of course. It just means that we should not judge every Pokemon by whether they can take the entire Elite Four on their own.
  4. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I suppose I could answer that with a "because that's how I intended it, and I started this whole thing so you better listen", but that wouldn't be entirely fair. The better answer is that it allows for more and better discussion if you assume the player is using a team of Pokemon (around 3-4 is most reasonable imo) rather than solo'ing the game, and not actively evading as many Trainers as possible. This does a couple of things.

    Among others, it is less harsh on underleveled Pokemon. If your standard for Pokemon is "can I solo the game with this in a couple of hours", something like Lapras is as bad as, say, Venonat, because you simply can't get the job done with either. However, if you assume a team, and you don't actively evade Trainers, you can at least somewhat train up Lapras. It allows us to actively reflect that Lapras is better for Venonat.

    As for the Unknown Dungeon, I don't really care about that. The EXP you gain on your way to Mewtwo is pretty inconsequential since throwing that Master Ball at Mewtwo is the last thing you'll do that matters in the game, so you might as well repel 'em off.
  5. Garud

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    Something just occurred to me, maybe we should vote. I mean it would help deciding where something belongs in regards to tier. I've got an idea of how that would work, what do you guys think?

    Basically it would go like this. We go over already submitted articles and see if they make the standard. If they do, then we vote on their placement with reasoning. Majority rules, but that would beg the question, should we allow everyone to vote?

    Voting would look like this:

    Abra (Top, High)

    (Short amount of reasoning)

    Tentacool (High, Mid, Low)

    (Short amount of reasoning)

    We nominate potential tiers in this case and then vote on the one we think they belong in. It prevents use from shoving 10 pokemon in "Top Tier" and having only 1 in bottom. While there are obvious picks for certain tiers (Abra and Squirtle for instance) they will just end up getting voted into those tiers. This way everyone gets a say and we have an accurate account of who belongs where. Any thoughts on this?
  6. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    We're not going to vote on this, and I can't really believe we're making such a big deal out of all of this-- In Game tiers is a completely recreational concept, and has been since Mekkah made that first thread for them.

    Besides, distinguishing between high and top is practically inconsequential, considering that if you're in one of those categories, you pretty much break the game in half. If we're honest about it, for anyone with a halfway-satisfactory knowledge of Pokemon, getting through the in game adventure is a joke, even if you only use the lowest tiered Pokemon available (especially in RBY; thank god the later tiers made things slightly more challenging)-- I mean the E4 is made up of shit like Horn Attack Rhydon and Barrage Exeggcutor-- it's literally made to look impressive while making it possible for a 7 year old to beat it (no, like... seriously... completely literally).

    Keep this all in mind when we're debating... It's all within perspective... :x

    end of the day, OP is the one who has to write the article.
  7. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

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    No offense meant, but coming from this very website this comment is kind of hilarious.
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Ok let me give this a whirl:

    [​IMG]
    Meowth- Mid Tier
    Availability: Right after you beat the Cerulean City quest line, on route 5, evolves at level 28
    Stats: 45 attack isn't that great, but 90 speed pretty much ensures you go first, as persain attack goes to a respectable 70 and speed to 115, because of its high speed it will get a ton of crits
    Movepool: It gets stab bite as soon as you get it, which isn't a half bad move, early on you can give it water gun and bubblebeam, which outright 1HKO any rock types, leaving pretty good coverage outside of Gengar, doesn't learn slash though for some time (level 51) but once you get it, it gets critical hits every time
    Typing: Normal typing leaves a lot to be desired defensively, but it has enough bulk to take a few weaker hits
    Match-ups:
    Brock - -
    Misty - -
    Lt. Surge - Definitely can help out, not a one make job though.
    Erika - High defense and status mean it won't be much help
    Koga - By this time a Persian, can't 1HKO weezing obviously, but it can take out everything else and do ome damage to weezing
    Sabrina - Weak defenses and retarded CPUs mean it can take out quite a few pokemon before being 1HKOed
    Blaine - The pokemon here have the defenses to take a hit and 1HKO it in response, its speed allows it to clean up though
  9. Naix

    Naix

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    Flareon submission (ready for QC and GP!)

    [​IMG]
    Flareon - Low Tier (at best)
    Availability: Celadon City, at Lv. 25. Requires a Fire Stone.
    Stats: Flareon has a massive 130 Attack and high 110 Special. Speed, however, is quite mediocre.
    Movepool: Its best fire-type move is Ember (Lv. 31) until it learns Fire Spin at Lv. 44. In Yellow, you miss out on Ember entirely, leaving you with no Fire-type attacks until Lv. 36. It learns Flamethrower as late as Lv. 54 (Lv. 52 in Yellow), but you should've beaten the game by then. Simply put, keep in mind that it's an Eeveelution. It doesn't even get a decent Normal-type attack until Lv. 40 in Red/Blue unless you waste a TM on it.
    Power: Lack of good STAB until Lv. 44/36 means that you'll be relying on Normal-type attacks when you first get it. Even when it does learn Fire Spin, its Speed just barely doesn't make the cut. The late-game abundance of Water-types means that when you finally get usable Fire-type moves, you'd be better off with Bite.
    Typing: Fire is great when you get it, but you have no moves to abuse it. Eventually, the typing's usefulness fades as you go further, especially after Saffron City.
    Match-ups:
    Erika: You'd think that because you can get a Fire-type right before a Gym, it would be a breeze, right? Wrong, because Flareon has no STAB, and all of her Pokemon have status moves.
    Koga: His Pokemon are all physical attackers with good Defense, hitting you on the weaker Defense stat and forcing you to use Ember. In Yellow, you'd think things would be better, because his Pokemon are all part Bug. Once again, you're wrong, because they all have access to status-inducing attacks and Venomoth is faster than you, meaning you can't Fire Spin it unless you use an X Speed beforehand.
    Sabrina: All of her Pokemon have pathetic Defense, but don't expect Flareon to take repeated Psychics.
    Blaine: This one could go either way, with the odds in Blaine's favor, because Rapidash also has Fire Spin and is faster.
    Giovanni: Dugtrio demolishes you. Also watch out for Persian, who has STAB Slash. While his Rhyhorn/don resist Fire, they're both slow and have pathetic Special, meaning you can trap at least one of them.
    Lorelei: 4 of her Pokemon are Water-types. Yeah, lost cause.
    Bruno: His Hitmonlee and Machamp both know powerful physical attacks, and Hitmonlee is faster than you.
    Agatha: Her ghosts outspeed you, are immune to Normal, have high Special, and have access to status moves. Needless to say, don't expect a victory from Flareon any time soon.
    Lance: All of his Pokemon resist Fire, and he starts out with a Gyarados that has Hydro Pump. In other words, don't have Flareon fight him.
    Additional Comments: Flareon is generally considered to be one of the worst Eeveelutions, and RBY is no exception. With a pitiful movepool consisting of no Fire-type attacks until Lv. 31 (Lv. 36 in Yellow), and poor matchups against the game's major fights, even those who are weak to Fire, mean that using Flareon is far from recommended. It also doesn't help that using Flareon means missing out on Vaporeon and Jolteon.
  10. Chou Toshio

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    true enough lol
  11. Mekkah

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    I was going to advocate Meowth for High until I noticed and double checked how late it learned Slash. Dang, that is so useless.
  12. JSND

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    Some things i noticed

    Why do you need to train Poliwag to get Jynx when you could capture Poliwhirl at 23 ?
  13. Carl

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    you don't i forgot you can catch poliwhirl
  14. JSND

    JSND

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    Oh okay, and the goddamn irony that comes from naming Tauros of all thing Kaiser... urgh that irony

    EDIT : Done some Shellder inputs, ugh the pain

    Shellder

    -Availability: Right after you get Pokeflute, fly to Vermilion city, and fish for one at level 15 with Super Rod.
    -Stats: As Shellder, it has nice defense, moderately high attack, and decent SpA for an unevolved. It can be evolved immediately, but that means missing movepools. Its speed are relatively low(base 70 evolved), but thats pretty acceptable in game.
    -Movepool: It started with only Tackle and Withdraw, and learn Clamp at level 23, and it also learned Aurora Beam at 30 and Ice Beam at 50(too long). Efficiently, you would aim only for Aurora Beam, or use the Ice Beam TM from the Market rooftop. A Hyper Beam could help after it evolve. Overall its a toss up beetwen patience and immediate power at a cost of valuable(and expensive) TM.
    -Power: No matter how you cut it, 95 base offense is pretty good, and 180 defense is humongous. It can deals respectable damage to most in game threats with Surf and Ice Beam, and enough speed to use Clamp effectively
    -Type: STAB Ice and Water is nice in game, but thanks to its horrible movepool, you will have tons of problem against Water using trainers, which was pretty high in numbers
    -Match-ups:
    Erika : It started at level 15. Its best to not even bother
    Koga : Might have some problem with the Psychic using mon on the Gym, as for Koga himself, that 180 defense comes in handy when its leveled enough(around 28 - 30 area) and it can sweep with Surf and Ice Beam.
    Sabrina : Fast Psychics ? Better not bother. You can try your luck with Hyper Beam, but that 70 speed didnt help much against Sabrina at efficient levels.
    Blaine : Sweeps
    Giovanni : Sweeps
    Rival battles : Now this is where Cloyster is interesting, its stats are tailor made to handle his team, except for Alakazam and potential Venusaur
    Lorelei : It Walls Lorelei's team, but cant do much in return
    Bruno : Beat the 2 Onix. Lost to everything else
    Agatha : Fast mon + Status problem = dont use Cloyster
    Lance : Gyarados takes a bit of time, but the rest of his team get OHKOed and cant touch you in return

    Additional comments :
    After my run with Cloyster i think it fits in Middle or Low Tier. At the time where 30 is your average level, it comes at level 15, therefore need some grinding and still ask for TM support(or none if you can stand grinding it to 30 before evolving). After it reached its full potential, it still doesnt go ROFLstomp the game like some other mon, but its notable able to flawlessly handle a few of late game threats, most notably Lance and Blue. All in all, its not something that i would recommend anyone to use in a playthrough, and overall outclassed by most other Water types(notably Dewgong and Gyarados), despite its nice alvailability
  15. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Someone mentioned Bulbasaur doesn't do well against Lance in this thread, but I would like to mention one thing. In Red & Blue, the AI is set to always use a Super Effective move against you, even if it isn't an attacking move. So his Dragonairs and Dragonite will just use Agility or Barrier, and Venusaur wont even be touched. This doesn't apply to Yellow though, as Dragonite has Blizzard there.

    I used Swords Dance, Leech Seed, Razor Leaf, and Body Slam on my Venusaur and it swept everything not called Gengar in-game. Then again, I imagine you guys might not be as willing to give your Swords Dance and Body Slam TM's to Venusaur like I did.
  16. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    Doing a test run of Blue at the moment, following findings so far:
    - Magikarp is reaaaally bad. I know that sounds like stating the obvious, but we're not talking about Abra where you level it up 6 times fairly quickly and it's good to go. I had to bait-and-switch every single Trainer in Mt Moon, most of the ones between Cerulean and Vermillion, and some wild Pokemon to get the thing from 5 to 19, and then use a Rare Candy to top it off. I did skip Misty for this. Now, I'm sure it will destroy the rest of the game, but I question whether this is High tier material. Magikarp just doesn't fit in any kind of fast run. The only other Pokemon I had at that point was Wartortle, and I think Magikarp robbed him of at least 7-8 levels along the way. Maybe if Gyarados did something other Pokemon could not, but the difference between Gyarados and other random Pokemon that sweep once evolved is very small...the difference between Magikarp and something like Pidgey is enormous.
    - Sandshrew started a little worse than I remembered. It also doesn't have reliable crit with Slash until it evolves. Other than that, I still really like it. Slash + Dig is amazing. This thing took less effort than Magikarp, and it's going to perform the same or better against 99% of the opponents.
    - DUX can be traded in as high as L17, which is awesome. Also because I skipped Misty it did not actually obey me...oops. Anyway, the first few levels are rough because its attacks aren't all that great (Peck + Fury Attack), but once it gets Swords Dance I think it gets really good. Something like a 3-hitting Fury Attack from a Swords Dance OHKOs most things I found. Also it grows so fast, I'm on my way to Rock Tunnel and he's 5 levels from disobeying me again.

    What else is worth testing?
  17. Progeusz

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    Diglett/Dugtrio. I remember that when I couldn't beat Misty with Charmelon, I would go to Vermilion, catch Dugtrio and laugh at Starmie.
    Digletts 19-22 know Dig already and ohko almost everything their level that isn't flying.
    Dugtrio 29/31 murders absolutely everything with Dig. He also has very high crit ratio. Learns Slash just 4/6 levels after catching to ohko flying pokemon. 5 levels more and there comes Earthquake. Dugtrio outspeeds everything (Badge + StatExp). You can teach it Rock Slide if you want to.
    I think it's better than Sandshrew/Sandslash, not to mention that you can get it in Red as well.

    I agree that Magikarp shouldn't be high tier, training it is too frustrating. Abra can at least learn Mega Kick or Seismic Toss TM.
  18. Mekkah

    Mekkah
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    I'm already past Misty (in fact, Dux just solo'd Erika). However, I've used Diglett so often that I don't think I'd learn anything new, and I'm already using Sandslash.
  19. Naix

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    How about Jolteon? While Thunderbolt is awesome, that's the only attack it really uses effectively (unless you include lolThundershock). This wouldn't be too bad, but Thunderbolt has only 15 PP, meaning it has limited use in large places like Silph Co. and Routes 12 through 15.
  20. Mekkah

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    I used Jolteon before. Thunderbolt's 15 PP is a bit annoying, but don't forget that it also has Thundershock for the bazillion Bird Keepers/Fishermen/Zubat/Rattata and other weak things. Its position is fine.

    I just finished all of Saffron City. I'm sure Dux is being underrated. It does need a Swords Dance to start OHKOing things, but once you get one in it just tears through things, and even without a Swords Dance it can do some random things. It OHKO'd Sabrina's Venomoth at equal levels using Fly, for instance.

    Lola is broken. Seriously deserves High at the very least. Fished up a L23 Poliwhirl in Celadon, traded it, fed it the Psychic TM, went to town on Bicycle Road/Silph Co, had to hold it back. It can take the Fighting Dojo, it doesn't care about anything Sabrina does (it learns Body Slam naturally), it sweeps a lot of Gary's Pokemon, and in its future there's also Giovanni, and pretty much the entire Elite Four loses to it. Absolutely marvelous. Its only weak point is Blaine, but Blaine sucks.

    Gyarados is pretty satisfying. There was a short point in time where I thought it was a cut above the rest post-evolution, but right now with my team in the 40s, not really. Mid Tier this thing.
  21. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I used Gyarados in every run of RBY that I've done, and its always been my highest leveled Pokemon. Then again, that's probably because I let it solo Erika, Blaine, Loreli, and Lance. Although in my recent run I let Ponyta solo Erika.

    My Final Yellow team was: Pikachu, Gyarados, Venusaur, Haunter, Rapidash, Rhydon (traded Rhydon from Cinnabar Island)
  22. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Yeah, pretty much. Learning Slash at around level 50 makes it really crappy... >_>

    If it got Slash right away (and you'd catch it after getting bubblebeam), it'd be great but... Meowth is pretty bad without Slash...

    If Dux is Mid Tier'd I don't think it's being underrated...

    Gyarados gets points for coming really early. The early grind is annoying, but frankly it's not a big deal, and if you're using it to it's best effect it's awesome-- and awesome not only for the tail end of this game, but for about 80% of the whole adventure. High Tier definitely.
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    One of Gyarados's biggest appeal for me was Dragon Rage at level 25 - but at that point, DRage fails to OHKO anymore, so it's really not worth the effort. It also doesn't help that Magikarp / Gyarados level up at a VERY SLOW rate, so it takes forever to evolve Magikarp, and getting it up to level 20 is hell. It's very hard to find a good Water-type, though, so I guess it's worth the initial grinding. Gyarados definitely carries its own weight.

    I always found Geodude in Mt. Moon to be awesome ... resists the ubiquitous Normal and Poison-type moves and learns Earthquake on its own. It sucks that you need a link cable to evolve it to Golem, though. I guess its utility sort of fades late-game, so it's probably Mid-Tier.

    Hypno is a beast. You can capture Drowzee relatively early. It learns Hypnosis, so you can teach it Dream Eater to pretty much pawn everything. It learns Psychic at a reasonable level, too. It's good bulk and special combined with the ability to sleep Pokemon and heal itself with Dream Eater is much appreciated. This guy is definitely High / Top-tier material.
  24. NixHex

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    Diglett gets top as you explained it earlier itt, there's no question about it.
    Jolteon deserves top where I put it. It's the fastest (good) Pokemon in the game and Thundershock/bolt are enough for it. Crit Thunderbolts blaze through the thickest of foes and it should be at a high enough level to where it can solo Lorelei. It's not too great against the rest of the elite 4 but it does murder Pidgeot and Gyarados / Blastoise. It also moves before any Pokemon in the game and levels up easily.
    I really like this post. Let's not encourage OHKO move sweeps. Over 1/5 of the entire game can pull it off and it kills the spirit of this project.
  25. Garud

    Garud

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    Gyarados is a monster though. He needs more investment than Abra for a slightly lower payoff, sure, but he is pretty incredible over the long run. I think he should stay in High tier.

    Geodude is awesome, its only flaw is that it evolves to Graveler (and Golem) at level 28, which sucks. But a self-sufficient movepool combined with commonality everywhere and a decent HM slave makes him quite a good pick.

    Hypno is high tier, but he can never truly be top because Abra just does everything better. Hypno has its uses and some points of difference (Hypnosis and decent physical attack), but you can get Alakazam by level 16 who is blisteringly fast and needs 0 TM support (although Seismic Toss is nice). Hypno suffers, not because there is something wrong with him, but because he is outclassed by something so much better. I'll bet he feels like any other contestant in the final 100m sprint of the Olympics. He's so much better than so many other people, but Usain Bolt will always beat him.
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