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Pokemon RBY In-game Tiers

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Redew, May 31, 2012.

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  1. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    One of Gyarados's biggest appeal for me was Dragon Rage at level 25 - but at that point, DRage fails to OHKO anymore, so it's really not worth the effort. It also doesn't help that Magikarp / Gyarados level up at a VERY SLOW rate, so it takes forever to evolve Magikarp, and getting it up to level 20 is hell. It's very hard to find a good Water-type, though, so I guess it's worth the initial grinding. Gyarados definitely carries its own weight.

    I always found Geodude in Mt. Moon to be awesome ... resists the ubiquitous Normal and Poison-type moves and learns Earthquake on its own. It sucks that you need a link cable to evolve it to Golem, though. I guess its utility sort of fades late-game, so it's probably Mid-Tier.

    Hypno is a beast. You can capture Drowzee relatively early. It learns Hypnosis, so you can teach it Dream Eater to pretty much pawn everything. It learns Psychic at a reasonable level, too. It's good bulk and special combined with the ability to sleep Pokemon and heal itself with Dream Eater is much appreciated. This guy is definitely High / Top-tier material.
  2. NixHex

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    Diglett gets top as you explained it earlier itt, there's no question about it.
    Jolteon deserves top where I put it. It's the fastest (good) Pokemon in the game and Thundershock/bolt are enough for it. Crit Thunderbolts blaze through the thickest of foes and it should be at a high enough level to where it can solo Lorelei. It's not too great against the rest of the elite 4 but it does murder Pidgeot and Gyarados / Blastoise. It also moves before any Pokemon in the game and levels up easily.
    I really like this post. Let's not encourage OHKO move sweeps. Over 1/5 of the entire game can pull it off and it kills the spirit of this project.
  3. Garud

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    Gyarados is a monster though. He needs more investment than Abra for a slightly lower payoff, sure, but he is pretty incredible over the long run. I think he should stay in High tier.

    Geodude is awesome, its only flaw is that it evolves to Graveler (and Golem) at level 28, which sucks. But a self-sufficient movepool combined with commonality everywhere and a decent HM slave makes him quite a good pick.

    Hypno is high tier, but he can never truly be top because Abra just does everything better. Hypno has its uses and some points of difference (Hypnosis and decent physical attack), but you can get Alakazam by level 16 who is blisteringly fast and needs 0 TM support (although Seismic Toss is nice). Hypno suffers, not because there is something wrong with him, but because he is outclassed by something so much better. I'll bet he feels like any other contestant in the final 100m sprint of the Olympics. He's so much better than so many other people, but Usain Bolt will always beat him.
  4. Hemp Man

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    Yeah, when I got Dragon Rage it'd always do about 99%, but hey, that is still pretty awesome.

    Another good point is that its the earliest Water type if you didn't choose Squritle. The next Water type you can get is Vaperon, but that means you miss out on Jolteon and Flareon (the former is great, and the latter isn't as bad as its reputation states it out to be). You get a lot of good Water Pokemon later on at Seaform, but by then you pretty much should have someone with Surf.

    Another thing about Gyarados is that he is neutral to Grass moves, making him one of the better "Water type who uses Ice Beam to hit Grass foes."


    Agreed

    Hypnosis has poor accuracy though.
  5. Mekkah

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    Long post with lots of dissenting opinions ahead:

    Gyarados does not come really early, Magikarp does. If you could fish up a L19 Magikarp with the Old Rod in Vermillion City, I'd say sure, this thnig is High/Top tier. But instead, I have to crawl through Mt Moon and the places that lie beyond to level it up. There are so many Pokemon available that can at leat earn EXP for themselves and OHKO 70% of the things Gyarados does, and if you advocate Gyarados for High you're putting a ton of them below him.

    I don't have the exact numbers at hand but if I recall correctly this thing needs somewhere between 100 and 900 EXP per level up from 5 to 19. That probably means it needs like 7000 EXP (and the Rare Candy). And Magikarp can't get the EXP himself: you need to lead him, switch him out for your juggernaut (who then takes a hit), KOs whatever, switch back to Magikarp, etc. Then Magikarp gets like 100 EXP for a Trainer battle and more like 30 for a wild Pokemon. 70 trainer Pokemon. That's an estimate of what Magikarp needs. The exact number could be different but it's still a terrible prospect.

    It actually takes until Cerulean/Vermillionish for that Water-type to be for anything but show, and against the upcoming 2 gym leaders you don't even want a Water-type (Surge and Erika). Water is not especially good vs Team Rocket, and if you don't have a Water-type you probably have something else that can take the Water Gun/Bubblebeam TMs to take care of things like Geodudes and Cubones. My point being: you do not need a perfectly arranged team representing every type under the sun. If you do want a Water-type for Blaine and Giovanni, there's the trade Seel, and random things at Seafoam, and Lapras I guess.

    OHKO sweep is fine and should be considered. The great thing about Dewgong is not just that it can Horn Drill: it can survive the initial turns to X Speed/Accuracy up, and it can save PP by using Surf/Blizzard against some enemies (you don't get infinite Ethers/Elixirs). I don't advocate assuming solo playthroughs, but you should be giving credit where it's due. A Pokemon that needs X Accuracy/Horn Drill to KO things at all? Sure, that's bad. But Dewgong sweeps the last two gym leaders with Surf/Blizard.

    Hypnosis/Dream Eater is way too clunky on a slow Pokemon like Drowzee. Hypnosis is inaccurate, and every time they wake up you need to put them back to sleep again (if they're faster, you also miss with Dream Eater). Drowzee does learn Psychic at 32, but it also evolves to Hypno at 26, who learns Psychic at 37. So either you're going to be pressing B a lot and running around with an underpowered Pokemon, or you won't have Psychic for a while. Once he gets Psychci, he should be good to go, and Confusion itself is decent, but this is High tier at best, definitely not Top. Also Dream Eater requires you to walk all the way back to Viridian with the Cut HM.

    Also @everyone who gives Pokemon bonus points for being HM slaves: I don't agree with this. Grabbing something that can use HMs for you is as easy as falling out of bed. Most HM moves can be put on something on your team with minimal impact, or even benefit. Surf and Fly are often your best Flying options, Strength is a decent attack, and Cut is almost as decent, and you shouldn't use Flash at all. HM slaving is a low wage job: if you wouldn't be able to do it, someone else on the team would.

    Example of why I said this:

    This "someone with Surf" could be a L10 Goldeen that isn't doing anything for my team. It does not compete with the Seafoam Sailors in any way, and is completely irrelevant to the argument at hand.
  6. Mekkah

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    Double post cause finished my run.

    Dux does taper off at the very end of the game, where there's a long streak of non-joke opponents where his lower stats come into play a lot omre. Mid Tier is perfect for it, I think.

    Lola is amazing. I didn't even give it the Ice Beam or Blizzard TMs - if I had, it would've KO'd all of Lance's Dragon things even though it was like 15 levels behind them. Instead it came up short just a bit with Ice Punch. The greatest thing about Lola is that any slower enemy you can't OHKO can be put to sleep with Lovely Kiss, and if they ever wake up they still don't get to move. Ice/Psychic is just perfect typing.

    Sandslash during the later stages of the game is mostly useful vs things weak to it. That's a lot of things, still. I'm undecided between Mid and High. I honestly think it's at least as good as Gyarados, as it's less of a pain to train and Gyarados isn't notably better against anything I can think of.
  7. Hemp Man

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    I'm actually going to try a Mono-Flying team trial, team will be:

    Charizard
    Butterfree
    Gyarados
    Dodrio
    Scyther
    Aerodactyl

    I Started with Charmander, caught a level 4 Caterpie at the beginning of Virdiran Forrest. I did the whole "start the battle with your weak Pokemon, switch out to your starter Pokemon’ thing and after Virdiran Forest my team was Level 12 Charmander, Level 6 Caterpie. Then I repeated the same strategy for Brock, and after that Metapod was at Level 9, Charmander is at Level 13.

    So I just beat the first boss of the game, and while Charmander excels, Caterpie is still in need of babying.


    How is Water not good against Team Rocket? The majority of them are Poison types, which are neutral against Water.

    Also, about the gym leaders. Surge's Voltorb only has normal moves, meaning Gyarados is safe there. Gyarados is always at least Level 20, which I think is enough to outspeed the fragile Level 18 Pikachu (I'm not 100% sure of this, I'll test it out). Gyara definitely loses to Raichu though.

    On the subject against Erika, Gyarados is actually neutral against Grass. Tangela in particular has no Grass moves. He's faster than both Victreebell and Vileplume, and can severely damage them with Bite or Ice Beam. Although I guess some people might be hesitant to give up their Ice Beam TM, and Gyarados doesn't like being statused (although you could say that for a lot of Pokemon).

    Doesn't Lapras come at a Low Level of 15?

    Fair
  8. Mekkah

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    I said "not especially good", ie it's not essential or super effective. There is no niche for Water to be found there.

    Gyarados at L21 does outspeed and OHKO Pikachu with Bite, so he's ok there. My point is though, again, that you don't have a particular need for a Water-type at this point in the game. All you need for Lt Surge is something with Dig.

    I don't think Gyarados is very damaging with Bite vs Tangela. If you give it Ice Beam, sure, it'll be good. But Erika and her whole gym just have an extremely bad type that a ton of other Pokemon can hit super effectively, so like Surge, I don't think it should hold a lot of weight. Basically at that point you get the Fly HM and the Ice Beam TM, two moves that you can guaranteed give to something on your team to kick ass with. Gastly also humiliates this gym.

    My point is not that Gyarados is bad, my point is that there isn't much (if anything at all) that it does to justify going through the Magikarp process. It needs to be significantly better than other Pokemon to do that.
  9. Hemp Man

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    Well I never thought Team Rocket was much of a threat, I never really have trouble with them in-game.

    Yeah, Charmander and Squritle both learn Dig, and Bulbasaur has the type advantage. Also you can catch Sandshrew and Diglett. I actually think LT Surge is ted with Brock as the easiest Gym Leader in the game, getting to him (trashcans puzzle) is harder than fighting him.


    You're probably right on Bite, but I don't think Tangela can do much to Gyarados either.

    The Gastly line is my favourite Pokemon line and definitely is great in-game. Although, if you do use Gastly against her, it means you'll have to do the Game Corner and Pokemon Tower parts before you fight Erika.


    I guess its basically having a Pokemon with great stats early (I usually have my Gyara by Vermillion, which I still consider early) that stays strong throughout the entire game. If you're willing to give the TM's (BoltBeam), then it actually goes through the E4 pretty easily. Might have some trouble with Agatha though, and Lance in Yellow.

    Edit: I'm looking at the High Tier right now, and the other two non-ledgendary sweepers I see are the Nidorans and Abra.

    Where as Gyarados only really needs to worry about Lt. Surge's Raichu, Abra/Kadabra actually has a hard time against Sabrina due to her Infinite PP + Recover. Kadabara may also have a hard time against Blue's Exeggutor, and random Quick Attacks are annoying as well. :o

    The Nidorans are good, but they also have trouble with Sabrina, and Gary's Alakazam. It may also have trouble with Water types to (Misty, Loreli, Lance's Gyarados, Gary's Gyarados/Blastoise), although it does learn Thunderbolt, which is good.

    By the way, in the first post it is mentioned that Abra is weak to Ghost. In RBY Abra is actually immune to Ghost.
  10. Garud

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    Yes, but I've updated Abra's entry to reflect, the top page hasn't updated.

    Kadabra/Alakazam has no problem against Sabrina. The combined special stat allows him to sponge attacks almost relentlessly, as he resists and can recover it off. In addition, since your Kadabra/Alakazam is trained, it will be much stronger, faster and have a better moveset to hit them with. In addition, the strongest attack Sabrina has on her Alakazam is Psybeam, but if your Alakazam is the same level it should have Psychic by then, which is the superior move, and the ability to drop the Special stat means that you are guaranteed to win wars of attrition. Her Venemoth is Poison-type, Mr Mime doesn't threaten Alakazam in the slightest, Kadabra carries Psychic but dies easily and her Alakazam does not even run its best move.

    Kadabra/Alakazam doesn't lose to Exeggutor either, it's just slow to take it down.

    And seriously? Random Quick Attack from Rattata or Pidgey threatens Kadabra/Alakazam? The 40 base power move from two pokemon with crappy attack stats threatens a pokemon who comes with a recovery move? I'm not saying he's a tank, but seriously? Quick Attack? Which pokemon that learns Quick Attack in this game threatens Alakazam?

    I'm not sure what type of comparison you are trying to make here on examination of the Top Tiers.
  11. Hemp Man

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    Sabrina's Alakazam carries Psychic in Yellow version, and is 7 levels higher than its R&B counterpart. And I actually have done my Alazakam Vs. her Alakazam in RB before anyway. Maybe I got hax'd and unlucky, but she basically stalled me out of all PP, because she kept on using Recover when her health was down.

    I never said Quick Attack threatens him, I said it was annoying. When I was training my Level 16 Kadabara in the wild, I remember the Rattata Quick Attack actually did do quite a bit. Also, I don't think Alakazam gets Recover until Level 30.
  12. Mekkah

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    Sabrina's Alakazam actually kept using Recover on me, even with full health. I used Psychic with Lola until its Special fell to ridiculously low levels, paralyzed it with Body Slam, and hen Ice Punched until it was fully patalyzed. The RBY AI is really unpredictable in general. Agatha switched Pokemon like three times in a row against me (Juggler AI), while I was just KOing things with Sandslash and Lola.
  13. Hemp Man

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    I know that if you use a Poison type against Lance's Dragons in R&B (not Yellow), the AI will only use Agility or Barrier against you (since those moves are Psychic and is SE against Posion, but they don't do damage). Should this be factored one when tiering Poison types? I know you guys are against Glitches, but its hard to ignore that.

    Even funnier if you use Gastly in that battle, since he is also immune to all of Aerodactyl's Normal Attacks (watch out for Supersonic hax). Literally the one one that can actually damage him there is his Gyara, who dies to Thunderbolt if you have that
  14. TM13IceBeam

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    That's not exactly a glitch imo but rather fail AI programming.
  15. Son_of_Shadoo

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    OH MY GOD TM13ICEBEAM WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN.

    Remember that Gym Leaders in RBY have infinite PP, so stalling them out is impossible. Which is BS, but yeah. If using Zam against the Teenage Witch, you need to rely on Spc drops. And since she can do the same to you...
  16. TM13IceBeam

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    OH MY GOD I WAS JUST ON A RANDOM HIATUS CUZ FUCK SCHOOL FUCK VOLTTURN
    Or don't use Alakazam? Psychic is strong, yes, but the issue with Zam is that if it doesn't kill you, it dies. Stuff like Gyarados iirc can tank one Psychic and KO back with Bite.
  17. Hemp Man

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    Then it should be factored in. The first page says Bulbasaur is a bad match for Lance, but that only holds true for Yellow version. In RB, he doesn't get attacked by the Dragons, can hit Aerodactyl's mediocre Special stat with Critical Hit Razor Leaf, and resits Gyarados's Hydro Pump.

    Can I do Aerodactyl's review? I plan on using him in my current run, and would like to review him.
  18. TM13IceBeam

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    i'm not even sure lol
    there was this video that showed a L6 Zubat beating Lance's Dragonite with Toxic
    doesn't mean Zubat is top tier though
  19. Hemp Man

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    But I was talking about Venusaur, a Pokemon that is relevant since literally the beginning of your game (assuming you are using one in R&B, it would be the first Pokemon you get). Also, Venusaur can fight Gyarados and Aerodactyl (who doesn't have Fly in the RB Lance battle), where as the Level 6 Zubat would die to anything those two throw at it.
  20. Mekkah

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    Use him first, then write the entry imo.

    The whole super effective non-attacking move thing should be taken into account, but don't just assume that it always works. RBY AI has a history of being unpredictable. Until you KNOW a certain trick works, don't hype a Pokemon because of it.
  21. Hemp Man

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    That's what I meant.

    I completely understand where you are coming from, but I've been playing these games for over a decade now and the whole "Lances Dragons not attacking Poison Types in R&B" has seemed to be valid every time I've time I used a Poison type against him.

    But if anybody can prove me that it doesn't always work, I will be first in line to eat crow.
  22. Mekkah

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    If you know it works because you've tried it yourself with that specific Pokemon, then yeah, that's totally legit for a tier argument and my comment is not directed at you. The problem is that people might think it applies for every single other Pokemon there in the way they think is convenient.

    What if it doesn't work the way you think it does? What if it only takes into account Type1, or Type2, or only does it when the Trainer name's first byte matches your 6th item slot when walking from a grass tile onto a plain one? Point is, RBY can be inconsistent and random, and I don't want the tier list to be based on theorymon that has never been tested.
  23. Hemp Man

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    I have extended family coming this weekend so my current run of hiatus for a while, but I think next week I'll be finished and can do write the Aerodactyl review.

    Well, it definitely works for Venusaur, as I've tried it with him many times. I can't speak on behalf of other Poison types, although someone mentioned that they saw it tested successfully with a level 6 Zubat. Obviously a Level 6 Zubat is useless against the entire Elite 4, but Venusaur has its merits throughout the entire game.

    Understood.
  24. TM13IceBeam

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    meh just sth

    Omanyte - High Tier
    Availability: He comes as soon as you have Surf, meaning you can get him as soon as beating Koga.
    Stats: Excellent Defense and Special, okayish Attack and bad Speed
    Movepool: He can learn Surf right off the bat! Aside from that nothing spectacular.
    Power: 95 BP STAB immediately available off 90 Special? Sign me up bitches, he's has higher special than Blastoise! Outside of that, his movepool is just meh, but he has enough for his job. He's also easy to train, you can just have him kill all the trainers in Pokemon Mansion/Cinnabar Gym with just Surf.
    Type: At the point you get Omanyte you MUST have Surf access, meaning Omanyte has a strong STAB move right off the bat. He also conveniently destroys the local gym while laughing with 4x resistance to Fire.
    Matchups:
    you'll never have oma to fight these 2 anyway but w/e (open)

    Erika - bad matchup
    Sabrina - decent, but not strong enough

    Blaine - LOLOLOLOLOLOL
    Giovanni - Decent, just needs to watch out for occasional Earthquake
    Lorelei - You can't do anything, but neither can she.
    Bruno - Slight disadvantage here but all his Pokemon have bad special meaning Oma can 1-2HKO them with Hydro Pump/Surf/Blizzard
    Agatha - Just average...
    Lance - He wins against everything except Gyarados
    Blue - Kicks Arcanine, Pidgeot, Rhydon and Exeggutor's butt (rofl exeggutor too stupid to carry even mega drain). He also resists all of Blastoise's attacks and really only loses to Venusaur (although why would you use Omanyte if your starter is Squirtle is beyond me) and to an extent Alakazam (because) and Charizard (fire spin is gay)
  25. breh

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    See, I'm not the only one to think Omanyte is high tier material!
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