Gen V Ability Shift
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Pokemon Throwback - Gen IV Tier Shift
- Thread starter EV
- Start date
genIV stabmons
gen IV stabmons
Gen IV STABmons
EV
Banned deucer.
Final tally:
Gen IV STABmons - 19
Gen V Ability Shift - 11
Gen IV STABmons it is! You may continue to discuss the current ladder or even theorymon for next month. There is one topic I would like to focus on, however, before the next ladder is implemented. And that is a quick ban on Belly Drum.
Here is a list of every Pokemon usable up to generation IV. Keep in mind that HAs didn't exist yet, and some non-HA have changed from then until now. The only gen IV Pokemon with Unaware was Bibarel. There is no Topsy-Turvy, King's Shield, Prankster sleep, or Sturdy mechanic to block OHKO like a Focus Sash. How can gen IV handle Belly Drum+Extreme Speed? Or if it can't, please tell me why.
Gen IV STABmons - 19
Gen V Ability Shift - 11
Gen IV STABmons it is! You may continue to discuss the current ladder or even theorymon for next month. There is one topic I would like to focus on, however, before the next ladder is implemented. And that is a quick ban on Belly Drum.
Here is a list of every Pokemon usable up to generation IV. Keep in mind that HAs didn't exist yet, and some non-HA have changed from then until now. The only gen IV Pokemon with Unaware was Bibarel. There is no Topsy-Turvy, King's Shield, Prankster sleep, or Sturdy mechanic to block OHKO like a Focus Sash. How can gen IV handle Belly Drum+Extreme Speed? Or if it can't, please tell me why.
It can't. the closest thing to a stop is using heart swap or mist the turn they use belly drum, which is only a check and any pokemon that resists or is immune can be OHKO'd by ursa's brick break or crunch
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 676-796 (196.5 - 231.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 367-433 (87.3 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO(56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 310-366 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO(43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 446-526 (151.7 - 178.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aggron: 676-796 (196.5 - 231.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 367-433 (87.3 - 103%) -- 25% chance to OHKO(56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Brick Break vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steelix: 310-366 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO(43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dusknoir: 446-526 (151.7 - 178.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
EV
Banned deucer.
Well I was more worried about Scrappy Drum Kanga, because Ursaring can still run its Guts Fake Out+Espeed goodness. Either way whoever runs BD is still going to cause a lot of mayhem, more so than Shell Smash does right now because basically every stop hasn't been invented yet.
Drum kanga is better early game
canno
formerly The Reptile
The first thing that comes to mind as an answer to BD is some sort of Skarmory + Bulky Ghost core, since Skarm can handle most ESPeeders unless they have a Fire move or some strong neutral move (remember Steel resists Ghost and Dark in Gen 4), but after calcing it's not even a good answer
+6 252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-349 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (not even Guts boosted)
+6 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 280-330 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Kangaskhan Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes I realize most of these need SR, but look at how much Skarm takes. Skarm literally can't take any hit, otherwise it dies to these things. So BD might be too powerful. However, it is also really hard to set-up, and you need to set-up mid to late game with it (early game is a no-no due to no team preview and random sash users). Still, BD might be 2gud, or at the very least, over centralizing.
Speaking of sash, that's another answer to BD, although any hazards destroy this (Clefable confirm for BD check, Magic Guard OP)
+6 252 Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 296-349 (88.6 - 104.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (not even Guts boosted)
+6 252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 280-330 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Kangaskhan Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 300-354 (89.8 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yes I realize most of these need SR, but look at how much Skarm takes. Skarm literally can't take any hit, otherwise it dies to these things. So BD might be too powerful. However, it is also really hard to set-up, and you need to set-up mid to late game with it (early game is a no-no due to no team preview and random sash users). Still, BD might be 2gud, or at the very least, over centralizing.
Speaking of sash, that's another answer to BD, although any hazards destroy this (Clefable confirm for BD check, Magic Guard OP)
No haze or heart swap tho
canno
formerly The Reptile
Haze and Heart Swap aren't good answers imo, since BD can just run over them with ESpeed except for the Ghost Hazers (and those die to any scrappy BD mon) and Omastar. Out of those, only Gengar actually kind of works since the others are too slow, meaning they'll get smacked in the face with coverage before doing anything. They need a sash in order to be effective, but you're better off just killing the mon if you have a sash (although Sash Manaphy w/Heart Swap could be fun), and sash runs into the problem of not being able to come in ever and needing absolutely all hazards removed.
(inb4 scarfhaze)
I'm talking saccing a mon and sending in a sash mist or heart swap
canno
formerly The Reptile
Again, you're better off switching in a sashed mon that can just kill the target (shouldn't be hard considering they're at 50% HP due to BD), and sash still has a lot of problems with it.
Which is only more reason to ban belly drum
Yeah, I don't see any way Belly Drum isn't broken in Gen IV Stabmons.
There's no topsy turvy, resilient unaware users, prankster users, sturdy, or KS. You're stuck with phazing (minus priority means you take a hit), strong priority (much harder to pull off in Gen IV, but at least E-speed is priority +1 this gen), heart swap (useful, but only if you live the hit), and something that could theoretically live normal STAB + coverage moves (Ghost + Steel cores). I'd say quickban Belly Drum. It'd be centralizing either way and without team preview, it'd be a race to see who can prevent a BD sweepest the longest.
Team Preview or lack thereof is going to be one of the mechanic changes I'm most excited for. Dedicated leads will definitely make a comeback here. Too bad no illusion :[
It'll be nice to have a meta without boosting moves like Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, and +3 Tail Glow.
There's no topsy turvy, resilient unaware users, prankster users, sturdy, or KS. You're stuck with phazing (minus priority means you take a hit), strong priority (much harder to pull off in Gen IV, but at least E-speed is priority +1 this gen), heart swap (useful, but only if you live the hit), and something that could theoretically live normal STAB + coverage moves (Ghost + Steel cores). I'd say quickban Belly Drum. It'd be centralizing either way and without team preview, it'd be a race to see who can prevent a BD sweepest the longest.
Team Preview or lack thereof is going to be one of the mechanic changes I'm most excited for. Dedicated leads will definitely make a comeback here. Too bad no illusion :[
It'll be nice to have a meta without boosting moves like Shell Smash, Quiver Dance, and +3 Tail Glow.
To be clear, the quick ban is about Belly Drum on everything, not just the Normal types that didn't have it previously?
If it isn't on everything then it should be on things that have access to e-speed
EV
Banned deucer.
I've heard enough. Quick ban on Belly Drum for new users--old drummers are allowed. I'm tagging The Immortal so he knows for programming. Thanks all!
I could make an argument for banning it on azu as well but I'm gonna leave it as a suggestion
EV
Banned deucer.
Oh I forgot about the blue bunny. Well, at least it doesn't have secondary Fairy STAB anymore, but one of its best Gen 5 counters, Jellicent, is missing, so that still presents a problem.
I'm inclined to say it can be dealt with by a strong Fake Out+Espeeder like Ursaring who outspeeds with 55 versus 50 base Speed. Let's run some calcs.
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Fake Out vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 96% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Combo = (96.2 - 113.8%) -- ~78% chance to OHKO assuming Azumarill invests in HP. Without investment it's an easy OHKO or, if Azu has Drummed and eaten a Sitrus Berry, it will be at 75% health, which is a OHKO even with full HP investment.
Still, one check to Azu isn't great. Let's see what else we have.
Empoleon resists Water/Normal, but will fall to Superpower. None of the Water Absorbers can stomach Extreme Speed and in Gen IV they weren't that viable to begin with. I think the trick will be either hitting it with a strong SE attack before it hits you or revenging it with Ursaring or something similar. Its good bulk will make non-STAB SE moves fall short, however, so you need to have an Electric or Grass Pokemon who can gain the STAB boost.
Tangrowth:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 236 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 260-307 (65 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Hit back with:
22 SpA Tangrowth Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 342-404 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (Does over 75% health, where Azu will be after a BD)
(You better hope it doesn't have Ice Punch though...)
Leafeon:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Leafeon: 283-333 (84.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hit back with:
152 Atk Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 288-342 (71.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (falls short of 75%)
(I brought up Leafeon because it's a faster alternative to Tangrowth with similar Defense)
If anyone has other ideas, feel free to share. I may end up banning BD altogether. We'll see.