Poliwrath (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I will say that the original reason I thought Toed was a really good choice was because it beats all of the mainstream weather starters- I guess that makes it a good Hail choice for the same reason? Blizzard would still be Other Options simply because of how bad Hail is, but it's *an* option.

 

[Molk]

Yeah, exactly, im testing wrath right now and its actually doing really well! its making my hail team be much more effective than when i had heracross/terrakion/conk on my team, the only real issue i have with it is that even with restalk it can be overwhelmed if the opponent has like 3 things poli needs to check. I agree that blizzard should stay OO merely because its only usable on a hail team, im going to test it along with wish support from jirachi once i make a team for it. SDS, do you happen to have any logs of the core in action before i test it?

 

[Katakiri]

Played around with SDS' set and I did find Encore and Toxic more useful than RestTalk but only paired with one specific move. Protect was shaky, okay for scouting-out the inevitable Rotom-W but Protect+Encore doesn't work when you're as slow as Poliwrath, and getting one extra Circle Throw out of Substitute never seemed worth it since, as you Sub on something Poliwrath forced out, the incoming Pokemon would break your Sub as you Circle Throw making just using Circle Throw the better move in that situation anyway. Both variants of the set absolutely demanded a Heal Bell user to be effective but I found a work-around for that problem and a happy medium between SDS' set and the original set. The change I propose is:

[SET]
name: Utility Counter
move 1: Circle Throw
move 2: Scald / Ice Beam
move 3: Encore / Toxic
move 4: Refresh
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

Analysis changes:
-Remove mention of RestTalk completely or send it to OO.
-Add Scald, Toxic, & Refresh
-Mention Scald and Toxic should not go together as Scald can't break Dragon Subs leaving Wrath SOL

Refresh allows Poliwrath to retain the status-clearing that RestTalk granted while not falling asleep or taking 2 moveslots, which were respectively the greatest strength and the two biggest issues with RestTalk. Just about every advantage except the 0 priority Circle Throw and of course the healing that RestTalk had applies to Refresh.

Any opinions on it?

 

[yee]

I'm rejecting the Resttalk set, resttalk sux that much

I like SDS's set with sub though, in particular-

Substitute
Circle Throw
Scald/Ice Beam (Scald and rain preferred IMO)
Toxic

You can do work against a huge amount of pokemon with this set, very valuable against stall and Voltturn in particular. I like Scald better here so Skarm isn't having fun coming in, letting you seriously perform against stall. I don't understand how Protect+Encore becomes annoying so I'll leave that up to Poliwrath master to explain. Refresh seems really cool to be able to abuse Wrath's water immunity against Toed and other bulky waters, so if we don't decide to make it a slash I certainly want a big mention in OO.

 

[ginganinja]

Just to be clear here, I will only accept the SDS set, sleep talk just doesn't work very well this gen (putting it lightly). Just add his set to the OP and just write it up please. Then I will stamp it.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Just to make it official...

[SET]
name: Utility
move 1: Circle Throw
move 2: Scald / Ice Beam
move 3: Toxic / Encore
move 4: Substitute / Protect
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Relaxed
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def

Refresh in OO.

Will stamp this set (and only this set).

 

[Katakiri]

I don't see how Refresh is in any way inferior to Substitute or Protect. I've tried all three extensively now and I see the appeal in all of them and I consider Substitute and Refresh equally viable options with Protect being inferior to them slightly, but I do see the appeal of Protect and it definitely deserves a spot on the set analysis but not more so than Refresh.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

This isn't a request. You will not receive any QC stamps for an analysis containing any set other than the one in my post. This decision is final.

 

[Katakiri]

I have yet to see any proof that Refresh is in any way inferior to the options in your set nor why it should be separated from the others. I for one believe all three options should be present in the main analysis. In the way that you turned down the prospect of Refresh without proper discussion I would have to assume you have either hastily judged it or you are keeping key information from us. As the person that will be spending time writing the full analysis, I am not going to spend time and effort writing an analysis that I find incorrect without facts backing it up that I can use to explain to the readers of the analysis as to why Refresh would be in Other Options rather than the main analysis; I would sooner request the analysis be closed entirely and that shall be the case should no further information be provided as I have no issue with that decision. If requested, I can provide further detail on why I believe Refresh belongs in the set but I expect the same courtesy.

 

[alexwolf]

Well said Katakiri! I am fully suporting Refresh getting a slash on the set, as it is very useful, and if you use Poliwrath with a Wish passer, you essentialy have RestTalk benefits without falling asleep...

 

[ParaChomp]

As much as I agree with your arguments and think that Refresh does deserve a slash, I shall argue for why it doesn't deserve one since nobody has taken the liberty to do so.

With Refresh, you lack the ability to scout (you can do so to an extent with Substitute). Substitute is there to protect Poliwrath from getting severely damaged from something that comes in and force another switch with Circle Throw or deal a hefty chunk with Scald or Ice Beam. It also protects Poliwrath from status problems most of which are dealt by slower Pokemon along with allowing it to scout them.

Protect not only grants a free turn of Leftovers recovery but is useful for scouting then switching which Refresh does not provide. You can easily scout for a status inducing move this way, then switch out to a Pokemon that resists the move or one with Natural Cure, Aromatherapy, or Heal Bell. On that note, even if Poliwrath does get induced by a status problem, the later mentioned can easily fix that and a good amount of Pokemon that learn these moves are resistant to Poliwrath's more common weaknesses.

...I hope I did a good job...


Despite his lack of reasoning or proof, SDS isn't one to argue with, and it is in everyone's best interest not to oppose him. Best to put the extra moves such as Refresh, Rest, and Sleep Talk along with explanations in Additional Comments or Other Options.

 

[jc104]

I'm reasonably certain that it is not SDS's, or for that matter anyone's responsibilty to "prove" that Refresh should be in OO. On the face of it, without testing, refresh appears a rather poor choice. Given that Poliwrath has no recovery outside of leftovers I highly doubt that Poliwrath will beat any toxic users through the use of refresh. You are taking one turn to undo one turn's work. Generally, the burden should be carried by the one proposing the set.

Still I find it rather surprising that he can be so certain about a set with so many slashes on it. Most combinations of the listed moves are reasonable choices. The only thing is that Toxic probably goes better with protect and sub with encore. This, for me, warrants a reordering of the slashes.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Before getting all self-righteous, maybe you should consider that 3 different QC members got together, talked about the set, and all had the exact same conclusion, which is that RestTalk is ass and Refresh is OO at best. Instead of this bullshit where you go "he must not know what he's talking about because he's being MEAN" (hint: i do know what i'm talking about, i have been using poliwrath since last year's wcop), maybe you should exercise some logic and go "they don't like it, there must be some reason" and then figure it out.

Since you guys seem to need it spoon-fed to you, I'll spell it out very clearly.

Refresh only has two real purposes: Defensive Politoed and SDef Heatran (and the latter is questionable since Burn isn't a huge issue and you scare the shit out of it, so it'd have to toxic on the switch). Toxic Spikes means that you have to Refresh the whole time instead of Circle Throwing, which makes you equally as useless, or you don't Refresh and you might as well not have it. Gliscor likely won't Toxic you, and if it does it still probably eats you. You're faster than Gastrodon and Blissey, so Substitute is WAY better than Refresh in such a situation. Ninetales is the only thing really likely to status you that would be bad, but it's just as likely to Solarbeam/Energy Ball the shit out of you.

Substitute is near-checkmate against offense, especially if it comes in on something that can't break Subs. If you Circle Throw down their only Poliwrath counter and it lacks healing, you can cause real problems. On top of that, it can shut down defensive Pokemon that can't break a sub and let you toss their team around like a series of ragdolls. Protect gets you extra leftovers recovery, lets you scout for U-Turns and other choiced attacks, and just generally annoy the opponent. Both let you stall with Toxic. Refresh just doesn't compare to the utility of Sub/Protect.

Any further whiteknighting of Katakiri and his "fight the power" stance will not be tolerated.

 

[ginganinja]

Katakiri what is going on with this.

Quality Control has stated the set they want listed in the OP (which hasn't been updated in over a month) and you still haven't made the changes. I am slightly disappointed that this is taking so long, especially since ideally it would be great getting as much stuff finished as we can before BW2 analysis come around, and I want you to inform us if you are no longer working on this. Please respond.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm not interested in entertaining this childish nonsense.

This analysis is going to someone else. Namely, me. I'll whip up in the next couple days.

I expected better from someone who has consistently been a decent contributor, but I suppose my expectations have been misplaced.

 

[Katakiri]

Sorry, I've been caught up in the BW2 craze. I'll get a rough submission up now and I will finish have it ready for QC checks, if not today, definitely tomorrow and go from there with the actual analysis. I've been awake way too long at this point to write anything exceptional at this moment, so bear me.

Edit: That's it for now, I'm going bed. Later, all.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

When I say things, I mean them.

Better luck next time.