Poll for our default simulator tiering level

[Age of Kings]

I support lv50 as it is the de facto level for competitive battling on the cartridge. I can see the other side as it is the de facto level for Nintendo's rulesets, not Smogon's, and thus it may not be healthiest for Smogon's metas. Still voting for 50 though since I'm more used to 50 than 100 now.

 

[norelationstojfk]

I voted for level 100. I don't have anything particular to say for it that people already haven't. The way I and many people understand stats hangs on that level 100 standard. We'd be basically cutting all the Pokemon off at half of their full potential by down leveling them to level 50. To heck with Game Freak's rules. Let us keep our level 100 simulator.

 

[Hulavuta]

I agree completely with alexwolf. Originally, I had no hard opinion either way, but after reading this the pro-100 arguments really sold me, especially the fact that level 100 is still completely possible. I think maybe a lot of people were in a similar situation? When I voted, level 50 was ahead by around 10 votes.

 

[Tribute]

Definitely 50.

With no hacks or auto 100, there is no reason to sim at 100, simulators should be simulating mostly wifi condition, just without the hassle.

If you arent going to ever reasonably have 100 v 100 battles on wifi, you shouldnt on a sim

"Its always been 100" and arguments about changes being at 50 are utter bull. The meta is getting turned on its head with no datamining and a new gen anyway.

The fact it going to change things is a STRONG PRO 50 point, wifi @ 50 and showdown @ 100 would turn them into completely separate meta, which is not okay at all.

 

[Manaphy]

If you arent going to ever reasonably have 100 v 100 battles on wifi, you shouldnt on a sim

We're not concerned about realism here, just what is actually possible. A Wish Chansey is a very unlikely scenario on Wifi but it's perfectly legal and commonly seen for simulator play.

 

[Roadsigns]

First off, I've been lurking and playing on the simulator for quite a while, so please don't take my join date too seriously.

I think the real question that needs to be asked before we can decide if we should enforce a level 50 cap, is how dedicated to the rule sets that GameFreak has established is Smogon? I understand that it's supposed to simulate battle, but I don't think establishing a slightly different set of rules than what GameFreak enforces is undermining that sort of thing. We establish our own tiers based upon usages on our own site/simulator and build entire metagames around what Smogon has decided for itself.

I don't think Smogon is dedicated so much to rule sets, as it is dedicated to the actual games, and nothing about a level 100 battle deviates from what is feasible in the game. Remember, we don't build movesets or standards around what is EASY in the cartridge, but what is possible in the cartridge.

My vote is for level 100.

Edit: Also, we just got away from the Gen V power creep. I see no reason to establish yet another, even if it's only 4%.

 

[Runic]

We're not concerned about realism here, just what is actually possible. A Wish Chansey is a very unlikely scenario on Wifi but it's perfectly legal and commonly seen for simulator play.

Also, y'know, perfect IVs.

 

[Tribute]

We're not concerned about realism here, just what is actually possible. A Wish Chansey is a very unlikely scenario on Wifi but it's perfectly legal and commonly seen for simulator play.

You CAN get a wishey once bank is live, its just a pain.

You WONT have a level 100 battle, its pointless.

Also see my edit.

Showdown is a convinience, not a whole new game

Also FWIW with no more hacking for wifi battle, an argument can be made (I'm not making it) for some of the really lax ruled sets like wish mence that are obscure events from 8 years ago

 

[Slheyas]

Also, y'know, perfect IVs.

Perfect IVs aren't really a problem now.

Getting a Pokemon with the 5 perfect IVs takes at most a few hours now, a day or two if you want 31 everywhere.

 

[Cherub Agent]

upstart said it perfectly. i agree with the notion that the cartridge is the means to a better end, not something we should be emulating. our tiers and clauses are fully absent from cartridge play (and make playing on simulators that much more enjoyable), and playing with the most powerful pokemon possible just feels better than playing with them at half their potential. people love the way smogon has run it for ages. fighting at level 50 also means that pokemon are hitting noticeably harder (the range is up to 5%, although normally not as drastic as this), and i think that this is pretty significant. for example, cb terrakion can 2hko hippowdon at level 50, while it can't at level 100

if you want to emulate the games that closely, why not look at the pokemon series in general and stick with a winning formula lol

joking aside, training to level 100 is sooo not a hardship, thanks to exp all, lucky egg in the storyline, and boosted exp for traded pokemon. theres also an area where people spam level 45-65 audino at you (chateau i think? right next to the day care lol).not to mention the high chance that an action replay for 3ds that'll give you your rare candies will probably be released.

i do however want to say that all the arguments for level 50 are completely valid, and they definetly do make sense. i still remain unconvinced because, while good, they just dont strike me as "omg this is something that needs to happen". smogon has been perfectly fine at level 100, and i dont think just brushing off tradition like it means nothing is the right way to go about this. traditions are important, why do you think they're still upheld nowadays? sticking with level 100 doesn't exactly hurt us, so i dont feel the urge to change it.

 

[Manaphy]

You CAN get a wishey once bank is live, its just a pain.

You WONT have a level 100 battle, its pointless.

1.) Level team to 100
2.) Use in battle
3.) ???
4.) Profit

But seriously it's perfectly legal to have a team of level 100's, realism is not our concern.

 

[UltiMario]

Totally Irrelivant to Discussion don't open if your name is Aldaron

Shoutouts to Aldaron for deleting my post which was completely relevant to the discussion over something I edited out 10 minutes before he deleted it.

Thanks to new EXP share you can just train everything at once and in a few hours you can get 6 things to level 100. It takes significantly less time to get 6 level 100s compared to 1 good breed. If we make the default level 50 we might as well set an arbitrary IV total limit to 170 or something, seeing as that would also slightly even Wifi and Sims and save wifi players time, or some other nonsensical limits. It's just way too arbitrary and there's no reason to do it with Level 100 being the standard and a working formula since RBY.

 

[Tribute]

, and i dont think just brushing off tradition like it means nothing is the right way to go about this. traditions are important, why do you think they're still upheld nowadays? sticking with level 100 doesn't exactly hurt us, so i dont feel the urge to change it.

Is being an accurate and (Mechanically at least) realistic sim thats as close to the wifi meta as possible not tradition?

 

[Tribute]

1.) Level team to 100
2.) Use in battle
3.) ???
4.) Profit

But seriously it's perfectly legal to have a team if level 100's, realism is not our concern.

You can, but you wont.

It isnt super hard, but doing it for EVERY new mon/new team? no

 

[Cherub Agent]

the tradition of sticking with level 100

 

[Roadsigns]

Is being as close to the wifi meta really the goal, or is establishing a meta that is derivative of it but,( more importantly) loyal to what is possible within the games the real aim here?

I think Smogon is about realistically simulating what is possible within the cartridge, while making it as competitive as possible.

 

[PKMN1]

the tradition of sticking with level 100

Nintendo through away with much of their Tradition this year (no Trio, only 69 pokemon, etc), why not Smogon? or is it because Smogon has basically refused to change much in the last 2 gens?

 

[lockntwist]

Totally Irrelivant to Discussion don't open if your name is Aldaron

Shoutouts to Aldaron for deleting my post which was completely relevant to the discussion over something I edited out 10 minutes before he deleted it.

Thanks to new EXP share you can just train everything at once and in a few hours you can get 6 things to level 100. It takes significantly less time to get 6 level 100s compared to 1 good breed. If we make the default level 50 we might as well set an arbitrary IV total limit to 170 or something, seeing as that would also slightly even Wifi and Sims and save wifi players time, or some other nonsensical limits. It's just way too arbitrary and there's no reason to do it with Level 100 being the standard and a working formula since RBY.

The reason to do it is to merge the WiFi and sim metas. As it stands, they would be different. Unlike saying that there should be an IV limit, which is entirely arbitrary.

 

[Tribute]

the tradition of sticking with level 100

Traditionally, wifi has been 100, even through 5th gen thanks to pokegen/+Acecards

Argue semantics all you want, the wifi meta this gen will be at 50. The showdown meta needs to stay that way as well unless you want to have to upkeep a whole parrallel tier list for wifi

 

[Roadsigns]

I may be a bit confused on this subject, and please tell me if I am, but aren't the Smogon tiers far more important to simulation than Wifi?

Like, I think the only way they can be enforced is through the simulator.

There may be a community for it, but I really think the goal of Smogon is not necessarily to mirror or even effect the Wifi community.

 

[Manaphy]

Traditionally, wifi has been 100, even through 5th gen thanks to pokegen/+Acecards

Argue semantics all you want, the wifi meta this gen will be at 50. The showdown meta needs to stay that way as well unless you want to have to upkeep a whole parrallel tier list for wifi

No. We play on simulators here, the problems of in-game users is really a niche concern.

 

[PKMN1]

Traditionally, wifi has been 100, even through 5th gen thanks to pokegen/+Acecards

Argue semantics all you want, the wifi meta this gen will be at 50. The showdown meta needs to stay that way as well unless you want to have to upkeep a whole parrallel tier list for wifi

1. Random wi-fi at least has ALWAYS been different anyway.

2. With the game unhackable at the moment and possibly many of the pokegen pokes unable to be sent over to XY, many people might have to start over as well so starting fresh with a new level might be helpful to the meta-game.

 

[UltiMario]

The reason to do it is to merge the WiFi and sim metas. As it stands, they would be different. Unlike saying that there should be an IV limit, which is entirely arbitrary.

But at level 100 they're already merged- it's just that Wifi takes much longer to make teams. Most of that has nothing to do with the fact that they're level 100, though, it has to do with breeding that makes it take so long. Level 50 is no more arbitrary than letting Wifi players not be pressured to breed super perfect stats, neither does anything except save time. Hell, what I said saves even MORE time than Level 50.

 

[PKMN1]

No. We play on simulators here, the problems of in-game users is really a niche concern.

Really? I always thought a sim was to replicate something, and everyone being at level 100 is not simulating what most tournaments and normal wi-fi is like.

 

[Arc Tech]

I oppose the enforcement of a lvl 50 cap.

• Level 100 has a clear relationship between stats, EVs, and IVs. Lvl 50 presents a learning curve as the correlation isn't as direct. The curve makes it harder for new players to jump straight into the game. As a community I find that isolating new comers is against an initial doctrine.

I disagree with this point. The relationship is clearer at 50 since the base stats of pokemon are their level 50 0 IV/EV stats. Just take the base stat, add IVs/2 (or we could think of IVs as varying from 0 to 15.5 with a step of .5), EVs/8, multiply by nature, then round down. For level 100 its not that clear unless you've got it memorized because for example, a pokemon at level 100 with a base stat of 100 and a neutral nature has 205 in that stat. The only reason I know a 252+ Base 130 equals 394 is because I have it memorized- I don't get how you get that from 130 ((260+31+63)*1.1 = 389). There's no difference between 100 and 50 in terms of adding IVs and EVs other than the multiplier is halved.

(Looking at the math I guess for 100 it's just +5 from the base stat * 2... Well I guess I know how to do it now. Still more complicated/higher learning curve. I mean I just figured it out, and I've been registered for 4 years and lurking since the tail end of gen 3).

I suppose an alternative would be to change the base stats from the 0 IV/EV lv 50 stats to the 0 IV/EV lv 100 stats, in which case lv 100 would be more intuitive. Whatever level we set our base stats too is the one with the lowest learning curve, since converting the base stat to a different level is not just a direct multiplier, like every part of the equation.