You will get a team of level 100s long before you will get a team with flawless IVs. It is possible to do and far simpler to EV when at level 100. Changing the levels to 50 doesn't really help anything, it just makes the game more unnecessarily complex.
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Poll for our default simulator tiering level
- Thread starter Aldaron
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They sort of do, if you try and bring a glitched pokemon to a competition, you are probably going to get kicked out.
There is a difference between a blanket change across all tiers and bans applied to specific ones. We ban Ubers from OverUsed, yes, but we allow them in Ubers. Overused is more popular because people prefer it to Ubers, but that does not mean smogon tiers are an arbitrary restriction - they're a system for categorizing Pokemon based on relative strength, and it just so happens that the majority of people find a tier with only a small number of bans to promote diversity to be preferable. You can't find an underused battle on Nintendo Wi-Fi either but we're not seriously proposing we get rid of the lower tiers because that's what some people prefer. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a level 50 singles metagame, clearly there are some people that would like one, but I can't see the argument for making it our main metagame at a detriment to overall balance.
THERE IS NO METAGAME. NONE. Everyone needs to understand that. BW has nothing to do with XY other than the series name.
Okay then, how is it not a good time to change it up a bit and try level 50, it would allow easier transition from Nintendo Meta-game to Smogon Meta-game while still being compettive enough IMO that there will be a variety of stall, HO, etc?
except it does not allow for anything in-game, there are still pokemon banned that you can get in-game and many movesets that, while possible to get, are VERY hard to get in-game, but are used a lot on the Simulators. Not saying I disagree with that part, just pointing out that Smogon also has stuff like that.
I support Lv50.
I am disputing an error commonly made. It was not an argument.
Yeah, but that's because balance issues. The level scaling kills legit strategies that are not op or unbalanced in the slightest.
Wow, this really got out of hand, and a lot of these arguments are based on really silly assumptions.
The assumption that Smogon is at all concerned with emulating the gamefreak established wifi-meta isn't really founded.
This isn't even a debate about whether or not people should be able to simulate level 50 battles, it's whether or not SMOGON SHOULD MAKE IT THE STANDARD. The only reasoning is that it should, is so that it properly represents the wifi meta, and brings the community together through that. That, along with the fact that it would make it easier to simulate teams for people who play wifi.
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but neither of those things are fundamentally true or good enough reasons to make such a huge change to standards that have been in place for five generations and over a decade. That's not me being too stubborn to accept change, that's me thinking that your reasoning isn't GOOD enough to merit the change.
At the end of the day, Smogon is not inherently tied to any Nintendo tiers and metas (this is made obvious by the fact that on PS there are OU/RU/etc tiers, and VCG tiers that are separate). That, and why in the hell should Smogon care about your convenience? Smogon should care about what Smogon HAS cared about for a decade; the most competitive metagame possible that is democratically decided by the users and the choices they make when building their teams (usage stats defining tier).
So, unless anybody can give me a reason that makes competitive battling as a whole BETTER because we shift to level 50 as the new norm for simulation battle, I just don't see why Smogon should change to it.
The assumption that Smogon is at all concerned with emulating the gamefreak established wifi-meta isn't really founded.
This isn't even a debate about whether or not people should be able to simulate level 50 battles, it's whether or not SMOGON SHOULD MAKE IT THE STANDARD. The only reasoning is that it should, is so that it properly represents the wifi meta, and brings the community together through that. That, along with the fact that it would make it easier to simulate teams for people who play wifi.
Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but neither of those things are fundamentally true or good enough reasons to make such a huge change to standards that have been in place for five generations and over a decade. That's not me being too stubborn to accept change, that's me thinking that your reasoning isn't GOOD enough to merit the change.
At the end of the day, Smogon is not inherently tied to any Nintendo tiers and metas (this is made obvious by the fact that on PS there are OU/RU/etc tiers, and VCG tiers that are separate). That, and why in the hell should Smogon care about your convenience? Smogon should care about what Smogon HAS cared about for a decade; the most competitive metagame possible that is democratically decided by the users and the choices they make when building their teams (usage stats defining tier).
So, unless anybody can give me a reason that makes competitive battling as a whole BETTER because we shift to level 50 as the new norm for simulation battle, I just don't see why Smogon should change to it.
There is a metagame. You can pretend as much as you like that gen 5 and 6 are totally different, but the Pokemon that were good in BW will, generally speaking, still be just as good in X/Y. There are what, 72 new Pokemon? The new type is neat but it has pretty poor distribution so most of the fairies won't heavily impact the metagame. We are not fabricating a new meta, we are iterating on the one we have and by downscaling to level 50 we are unnecessarily shifting it in the wrong direction, toward something less balanced than the clusterfuck we had. This is an opportunity to recapture the fun many people felt was lost in BW and by shifting to level 50 we are wasting that opportunity because make no mistake, we will have to seriously reevaluate whether it is desirable to have many 5th gen staples in our "new" metagame with the power boost they recieve. The argument in favour of level 50 just isn't nearly compelling enough to justify that.
I think the major problem with this discussion is that we're having a argument without being able to see any of the real impacts between the changes. If we, as a community, are to have this type of conversation, it needs to be better researched first. Show us some numbers, because while some of us will, I doubt most of us will go to damage calculators and see if a pokemon at lvl 50 is more likely to get a OHKO against something it should counter vs what it does at lvl 100.
People keep talking speed tiers this and memorizing stat that. Without seeing the actual, solid changes, in writing, a number of the people reading through this are going to feel like they are being pushed back and forth by boogie men within the community. This sounds less like a Smogon policy discussion and more like the American Politicians duking it out.
People keep talking speed tiers this and memorizing stat that. Without seeing the actual, solid changes, in writing, a number of the people reading through this are going to feel like they are being pushed back and forth by boogie men within the community. This sounds less like a Smogon policy discussion and more like the American Politicians duking it out.
Exactly!
I think people are experiencing some confusion over the intent here.
The issue at hand is solely whether we wish to remain with tradition and keep the scaled level cap at Level 100, or to follow the in-game convention of a scaled level cap of 50. That's it. We won't be erasing Arceus from the server. Your Ferrothorn isn't suddenly going to get overpowered by a Weedle (unless that was an issue previously). The Pokemon you choose won't be 50 levels lower than your opponents. Competitive battling as you know it won't suddenly cease to exist, and leave a gaping maw in its wake. We are simply going to change a number from '100' to '50'.
And in the process, a few minor changes will occur. However, with the very implementation of Gen VI, those changes will largely be lost in the ensuing chaos. Regardless of whether we implement the new level cap, you can expect to see many changes at all levels of competitive play. Things that used to be in one tier will probably move to another tier. Things that died faster will die slower, and things that died slower will die faster. People will learn these changes, and take advantage of them. And in the process, the tiers will be repopulated with new entries. This process can't be helped, as long as we remain as a competitive battle simulator.
How about that Game Freak created the game and that many of the new people coming to smogon are doing to because of the games, Whether to help beat the Battle Maison/Tower/Whatever, compete with friends or over wi-fi, or just because they want to see what gets world-wide tournaments to be made for it. You can try to go against it all you want, but this website nor the Simulators would not exist if it was not because of the games and peoples interest in competitive battling that stems from the cartridges. The Games are being balanced toward the threads that Game Freak has been sowing through tournaments and Wi-fi. Why fight against it and make it harder for people who want to learn about competitive battling, but do not care as much about the simulators. This is basically one of the ONLY real competitive pokemon website out there that talks about competitive battles almost exclusively and is able to really teach newbies the ins-and-outs of battling. Despite how much I hate some of the things that are banned or changed by Smogon, they are overall friendly to newcomers of all shapes and sizes. why should the many, many person who wants to be competitive on the very game that this website is based of be shunned in favor of the fewer people who ignore the game and only use sims.
Sorry about the rant.
What are you talking about? Auto-Lv. 50 just means the pokemon are forced to level 50, they can have any of the moves they can learn normally.
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I don't think you really understand how level 50 battles work
It doesn't mean you aren't allowed to level Pokemon past 50
It means Pokemon above 50 are forced down to level 50 during the battle
But they still keep all their moves
Level 50 doesn't restrict the use of moves in any way
Haven't you ever played the Battle Tower?
Actually, it can be helped, b
People have been researching, though. People have been talking about actual calcs, like, 3hkos becoming 2hkos. Examples of such are Hippodown sponging CB Terrakion CC, and Zapdos sponging Landorus HP ice. Somebody posted a really well researched thing about it earlier.
It's a -scaled- level cap, not a hard level cap. You would still have access to every move, and to every pokemon. It's just that, at the end of the day, after you made your entire team, it'd be level 50 instead of 100.
You can easily do level 100 battles in game by doing open level battles, so I don't understand why we should change the precedent if it can be replicated.
It might be worth it to test an experimental lv.50 metagame to see how the increased damage, EVs, etc. work out in practice as compared to lv.100 standard. If things do become more centralised and harder to deal with, we have gained experimental evidence in favour of lv.100. If not, a lv.50 standard would be still to consider.
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Because we're not Game Freak, and have never been forced to work with their standards. You're right that we're balancing their game, but you're wrong in the sense that we don't have to play by their METAGAME. The game that is established after the fact of the actual game (that's what meta means, so you know). None of those reasons meet the ends that Smogon has slated as their objectives; making a more competitive metagame, while following the ACTUAL POKEMON GAMES as realistically as possible. Not the metagames, but the actual games. That's why anything that is achievable in the games is achievable in the sim by Smogon's standards.
If you want to play by GameFreak's ideals of balance, then play the console. Smogon is not GameFreak.
No, that's no worth all the time and effort. Just vote here, yes or no, both arguments have been made.
We're actually quite ahead of ya there! We've been tireless working to get Gen VI up and running as soon as possible.
(also, they won't let me touch the code)
Let's just leave it at 100 because it can be replicated in game like someone said
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