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Powerpuff Stall

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Katakiri, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    Trying out a new RMT format with this one while having a little fun.
    SkarmBliss: (Chansey in this case) the bread and butter of stall. When the OU forum opened its stall exploration project, I wanted to break the mold and see if I could put a twist on an age-old concept. I immediately turned to SkarmBliss as it doesn’t get much older than that and while I was building a team around them I realized a few things: “ain’t nobody got” space for Taunt on Skarmory, Chansey doesn’t do too much to deter hazard setters, and with those two being the core of the team any Rapid Spinner is going to have its hands far too full. The easy answer was to grab a Magnezone, but Magnezone is far from a stall Pokémon and doesn’t do anything to deter Donphan or Hippowdon even and besides, Magnezone isn’t much of a twist to the formula. I needed something more potent and maybe a little more out-there to fix the core. Enter our "Chemical X": Xatu.​
    While it gained its popularity in Sun, I’m taking Xatu to the stall front. Xatu allows so many Pokémon to function at their best in OU simply because Xatu ensures those Pokémon will never be set-up on, and Chansey and Skarmory are two of those Pokemon. Unlike her overrated cousin Espeon, Xatu can Roost meaning it completely shuts down Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Bronzong, Hippowdon, Gliscor, and so many other things. With Reflect, it can even stall-out some Tyranitar, looking to Pursuit, with a little “toxic love” from Qwilfish; unless it U-Turns on a Roost, Scizor isn’t doing much of anything either so the Pursuit-weakness is a non-issue. With a Reflect up, any physical sweeper is going to need to Swords Dance to stand a chance against Xatu & Skarmory and that's where Haze comes in; reset the boosts and Roost off any damage they tried to do or switch to the hellish Skarmory behind a Reflect. Haze, on top of shutting down the dreaded Calm Mind Reuniclus, also creates a "free win" situation against standard Baton Pass teams as Haze can't be Magic Bounced nor can Xatu be Taunted. Night Shade rounds off the moveset with solid damage for breaking apart Subs and hitting switch-ins for around a 3rd of their full HP, not even factoring in hazards.
    With Blissey running both Softboiled for itself and Wish for its teammates, Skarmory rocking a Rocky Helmet to deter physical attacks, and Xatu boosting the team’s Defenses even further while preventing set-up of any kind, there’s not too much that can easily break this core, as for the Pokémon that can…well we still have half the team to introduce.​
    One would think that Qwilfish would be entirely out-classed by Tentacruel in the role of a Toxic Spiker, but that's actually not true at all; Intimidate gives Qwilfish immense physical bulk upon switch-in, allowing it to take hits Tentacruel couldn't dream of. In fact, Choice Band Terrakion's Stone Edge can only manage 42~49% damage against Qwilfish, Scarf Salamence can only do 38~46% with Earthquake and even less with Outrage, and Adamant Life Orb Cloyster after a Shell Smash can only Rock Blast for 61~73%. Qwilfish really helps Skarmory as some Fighting-types can be too much to handle and Qwilfish takes care of just about all of them. An uninvested Waterfall is far from great but it's the strongest offensive option it has. Thunder Wave can slow down threats to a point that even Chansey can deliver a finishing blow. Pain Split keeps Qwilfish healthy but becomes less reliable as the match drags onward. The lack of Rapid Spin is a shame for Qwilfish's general OU usage, but I don't need Rapid Spin so this little one is perfect for me.
    The team needs Stealth Rock so I decided on Heatproof Bronzong. Yes, Heatproof. I use Heatproof Bronzong because I don’t need Levitate; Skarmory & Xatu are already immune to Ground and Xatu is a FAR better switch-in to Donphan, Hippowdon, & Gliscor because, with the exception of a Stone Edge, which isn’t too scary after Reflect, they can’t touch or set up on Xatu. I also needed a Steel-type that could not only take Fire attacks from Dragons, but take Hurricanes and Superpowers from Tornadus as well as give CM Jirachi a good deal of trouble. While I don’t often rely on the illusion of Levitate that comes with Bronzong, it is nice to have around and since all common Spikes-users are entirely walled by Xatu, most opponents will never even realize it’s grounded. Bronzong carries Light Screen because the vast majority of Pokémon that switch-into it are Special Attackers and HP conservation is key for this team.​
    Rounding-off the team is Latias; sporting a passive-aggressive set to help deal with Keldeo, Rotom-W, and the majority of Sun team threats. Roar keeps Venusaur, NP Celebi, Jirachi, and Thundurus-T away for another day while out-speeding other Roars & Whirlwinds hoping to phaze away Latias' Calm Mind boosts if I'm attempting to do some damage. Her job is pretty simple but very important to the team as a whole.

    Problem Pokémon:

    Garchomp – Swords Dance and ChainChomp are potentially huge problems but it depends on their move choices. SD Fire Fang breaks Skarmory and Stone Edge is almost as bad. ChainChomp is stalled-out with by Chansey, but only if it lacks Swords Dance. Chomp is manageable with Toxic Spikes, but a pain nonetheless.

    Jirachi – Specifically Calm Mind potentially runs through this team if Bronzong goes down. Bronzong is all I have that can break it's Subs in one hit. Latias can Roar it away, and build Spikes damage but Chansey can't break its Subs in one hit.

    Thundurus-T – Nasty Plot is hell to deal with and Latias and Chansey are my best shot. Any other set is easily dealt with by Chansey.

    Victini – We need SR and preferably T-Spikes up early to deal with it. Latias is the main check but fears it a little in Sun. Bronzong can take a hit outside of Sun and EQ back. Qwilfish can take a hit and T-Wave then Pain Split and Waterfall.

    Team Strategies:

    Sand Offense: Lead off with Bronzong and get my Rocks up. Genesect and Tyranitar can't threaten me due to Heatproof so I'll usually Gyro Ball Ttar. Ferro is walled by Xatu. Latios can't break Bronzong, again due to Heatproof. Terrakion is dealt with by Skarmory, Bronzong, Latias, and (if Choice-locked) Xatu. All Landorus variants are dealt with by Skarm or Chansey. Bronzong can feint Levitate if need be.

    Rain Offense: Lead with Qwilfish and get T-Spikes up or lead with Chansey and fish for Toxics. T-Wave anything that can't be poisoned and just stall Tentacruel with Chansey, only Chansey is affected by Toxic Spikes anyhow so it's a very minor threat. Latias, Bronzong, and Chansey handle any Special threats Rain throws at them bar NP Thundurus-T. Again, Genesect can't really worry Bronzong and Chansey.

    Sun Offense: Get up SR ASAP. Bronzong has Heatproof so no fear of Ninetales, beware Dugtrio and opposing Xatu. Latias is the main check to Venusaur. Make sure to keep Bronzong healthy as well via Wish as he's a back-up check to Sun. Keep Skarm's Sturdy intact as an emergency check to Venusaur/Volcarona. Victini is hell for this team, just make sure to get Rocks up and keep Latias at full health. Xatu may be able to pull off a Reflect after the Speed-drop if you sac' something.

    Heavy Offense: Go into Xatu and claim your free Reflect against Deoxys-D. Yet again, Genesect is no issue. Keep Bronzong healthy for Dragons and only switch Skarm in on an Outrage or something if they have Magnezone. Use Gengar's inability to KO Chansey to send free Wishes to Bronzong, then take it out with Bronzong.

    Baton Pass: Xatu. Haze. Wait for the ragequit.

    Stall: Get T-Spikes up. Abuse Xatu as well as Skarm's Rocky Helmet. ...And of course wait about 60 turns. Try to clean up with Latias.

    Importable (open)
    Bronzong @ Leftovers
    Trait: Heatproof
    EVs: 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Spd
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Gyro Ball
    - Rock Slide

    Qwilfish (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Waterfall
    - Pain Split

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Wish
    - Toxic

    Skarmory (F) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Roar
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse

    Xatu (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spd
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Night Shade
    - Haze
    - Roost
    - Reflect

    All help is greatly appreciated and as with all my RMTs, I'll keep the thread up-to-date with changes, experiences, and ladder peaks!
  2. tehy


    Aug 16, 2010
    I hate to recommend specially defensive hippowdon, but... well i love to recommend specially defensive hippowdon. Firstly, it's a great stealth rocker. It sucks that it can't quite wall tornadus-T, but if you make tentacruel max Spdef, it can definitely deal with tornadus-T well, with chansey chipping in. It can't quite wall off dragons, but it actually makes an alright check to them. And of course, it gives you weather control, which is always nice. It also gives you a way to deal with SDcario, but you'll need to give it more phys.def evs than it has currently. TBH, i'm not sure why you need max def. tentacruel- it's not like you need to spin a lot, what with xatu and all, atlhough i suppose fire-types can get annyoing. Basically, Spdef hippowdon gives you weather control, and a pretty sweet mixed-wall. Hey threat list, hippowdon says hello!

    Jirachi – Specifically Calm Mind just loses to Spdef hippowdon

    Latias – The issue here stems from most stall pokemon being a little screwed against him in any case, so i can't help with that. But he can still reliably phaze HP fire cm latias.
    Reuniclus – Fuck. I agree. Same as above. BTW, i use sableye to deal with both of these, and even though you can't fit him (maybe for xatu?), it would be an interesting idea to think him over.

    Thundurus-T – Nasty Plot is hell to deal with and Amoonguss and Chansey are my best shot. Any other set is easily dealt with.
    Switches in on t-bolt;roars no matter what. Can't really help with that.

    Toxicroak – An odd thing to be weak to because SS kills his healing and he takes EQ to the face

    Victini – I found out the hard way that Victini just ruins this team. Hippowdon can take a hit and EQ but that's about it.

    Volcarona – Far and away my most medium weakness. Hippowdon gets up SR almost always, then phases him basically no matter what at full health. People are running giga drain more, but t-spikes helps here.

    So as you can see a lot of threats are now more like setup bait, and others are more manageable. With SS and SR, physical dragons like nite and mence are much more manageable-dragonite can be phazed once by hippo, and once by skarm, which means that by the time it comes back in it's nearly dead from 3 SR and SS in general. Salamence is more of a problem, but he's usually used as a scarfer and spdef hippowdon actually walls him, especially if you give him enough defense for SDcario w/LO.

    Edit: Here's an idea:Put toxic on something. that way, you can confuse ray latias with xatu, then u-turn (Not sure if it breaks sub), then hope it hits itself in confusion as you toxic. I find that toxic on amoonguss is bomb over HP ice, and that also helps with speed creep.

    Cm latias doesn't really run max def, but... why not just run perish song Spdef celebi? U-turn/giga drain/perish song/recover.

    Super edit: Yeah, i had to go, but i think we all know how perish song celebi rolls, i don't feel like overly explaining. Celebi's also nice against toxi, the BU variant. But here's an idea-sub out bronzong for Shucatran with just enough bulk to survive +1 EQ's from nite/mence after sr, and enough SPatk to KO with hp ice. Hp ice/earth power/stealth rock/lava plume or fire blast. MINDBLOWN!
    Shuca is better than balloon for stall IMO because it's not burned with every hit, but only when hit by earth moves, so you can lure them in and hit them, instead of forcing them out and having it popped later. Besides, i thought the whole point of phys. def tentacruel was just to have something for victini-what gives? Consider swapping him out for some form of starmie. No tspikes sucks, but starmie can take one (1) hit and counter back, as well as semi-sweeping lategame. And it spins much more reliably. (Also consider max phys. def donphan? With SR so zong can have another move like TOXIC which with gyro ball can get subCM latias TOXIC'd? ON A ROLL.)
  3. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    Thanks for the feedback! I'll try out Hippowdon but weather control really isn't an issue at all outside of CM Jirachi who is kinda checked by Brozong if the hax takes pity for once. I have nothing to fear from Tornadus with Bronzong and the majority of my team loves Rain for weakening Fire as well as activating Rain Dish. Sandstorm would hurt Chansey, Tenta, & Xatu's recovery and with Tenta pivotting a decent amount, I'd have to pass a Wish to him earlier than I'd like. In fact, I used to run Rain Dance on Bronzong partly for those reasons.
    It's really a matter of do the pros of Hippo out-weight the cons.

    On the topic of Reuniclus, I realized it may be a very good idea to drop Confuse Ray for Haze on Xatu. Not only do I get free wins against Baton Pass, but CM Reuniclus can't do squat to Xatu without it's boosts. I will really miss those hilarious OHKOes +2 Lucario & Breloom get on themselves due to confusion, but beating Reuni and BP may really be worth it.

    Confuse Ray is blocked by sub, tehy and iirc U-Turn doesn't break max Def Latias' Subs. Amoongus wouldn't be able to break its Subs either so it can't Toxic it anyway. That's part of the reason I want to replace Amoonguss. He doesn't really "do" anything. He beats Keldeo, Spores one things, and is just a pivot for the rest of the game. All the other Pokemon he's great for, namely Grass- or Ground-types, are beaten by Xatu anyway.

    If I could get something that beats Keldeo, Latias, and Victini over Amoongus I think I'd be good as long as Haze on Xatu works out...

    Welp, I got a Hippo to test-out.

    Edit: Ya know? I was just thinking of that Celebi. Gonna try that out now. Doesn't do my much good against Victini...hmm... Still better than Amoonguss for the moment.

    Edit2: Yeah okay. Haze is DEFINITELY in. It's extremely useful for dumb stuff like Siliglyph and as promised Reuniclus & BP Teams. Celebi's going great as well. Hippo not so much. He doesn't do me any favors against Rain teams and as I thought the sand damage just hurt the team too bad in the long run. I think I'll call it a night as far as battling goes. Thanks for all the help so far!
  4. Reymedy

    Reymedy Colt Python 357 Magnum.
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus

    Oct 17, 2012
    Hello, I had a hard time trying to find what I'd have change myself without breaking all the synergy.

    So.. If it was me, I'd have change Xatu for Sableye.
    First, Xatu is here to not let your opponent set-up hazards and taunt you. Sableye just does the same. The entry hazards you couldn't avoid on the switch turn will be swept away by Tentacruel anyway.
    What Sableye also does is spin blocking, which is really valuable in a hard stall like yours.
    Moreover, your stall lacks a way to spread damaging status. After all you only have Tspikes for this matter, this isn't really the best way to spread passiv damage.
    With Will O Wisp, you can "kill" physical sweepers, turning Chansey into a godlike that will never die... and you grab some nice damage on time. Finally you mitigate the loss of Reflect by spread Will O Wisp.
    Sableye still has a recovery move, and fix your Reuniclus issue PERFECTLY. Indeed he's immune to both of its attacks, meaning that you don't have to be afraid of him.

    I'd go for a Taunt/WillOWisp/Recover/NightShade set. You're probably better than me at chosing EVs.

    For your "Victini issue", you could try to get a Dragon somewhere, Latias I believe got the same resistances as Amoonguss, can learn phazing moves like Roar, Wish/Recover, Screens, and can we a potent threat for your enemy while walling him. You still fear his U-Turn though.
    Landorus-T can totally wall Victini, Gliscor aswell etc. So you might consider them, but I don't think that you need a specific counter to Victine, since it's choiced there is always a way to play around, with the SR damage he wont come so often.

    I hope I helped ! These are just suggestions but who knows :<
  5. tehy


    Aug 16, 2010
    So i'm going to need a new post;the old one is cluttered as all hell.

    Firstly, i wouldn't recommend xatu for sableye;tentacruel is not really a good spinner at all, and you'll be spinblocked plenty. He does stomp reuiniclus and subCM latias-subCM latias he just heavily damages, burns, then suicide taunts, at which point you spam BB to the face. (if you ARE running it run max spdef, the smogon set is lolworthy and fails to accomplish almost anything i'd ever want a sableye to accomplish.) So if you want to roll that way, he deals with a good few of your problems, and amoonguss can just handle breloo mand such.

    Also, how about kabutops? Spins very reliably, especially with an SD set, and quad-resists fire for a victini switch-in. In rain, he fails to wall, but can definitely pull off a sweep. Kabutops is kind of problematic to use in general, but your team just needs a pokemon that can actually take a v-create/flare blitz.

    Edit: Amoonguss for politoed is an incredibly balling move, and basically solves everything except for SubCM rachi, but it also isn't nearly as useful versus thundurus-T or toxicroak. Solves all your other problems though, so there's that.

    Double edit: Brilliant idea here-max Spdef jellicent/mixed def jellicent for chansey! You don't need a special dragon waller that badly, or a special grass type-waller, what with your current setup. It helps against keldeo, spinblocks, and can maybe take a few fire-type hits!!

    In soviet russia post edits you:Why not just stop all this and sub out chansey for a latias? It can even use wish plus recover, if you still want it to. I'm thinking max hp, with mixed defenses. After victini v-creates, it can recover as victini loses speed, then Ko. Recover/hp fire/psyshock/dragon pulse? (Maybe replace pulse with reflect?)The sky is the limit and LATIAS CAN FLY. With chansey gone, celebi can run heal bell intead of, say, u-turn, and at the very least absorb status. (Although now you're uncomfortably weak to pursuit, and hydreigon spamming dark pulse. Good thing silly nubs don't pack it anymore :D)

    And since when does xatu wall toxicroak hard? Both its main coverage moves hit it SE, sort of like latias except less bulky.
  6. Episode36


    Apr 13, 2012
    I wouldn't get rid of Xatu, but I would swap out on of your Pokemon in favor of a ghost type. Dusclops, Sableye, and Cofagrigus are all great spin blockers. Jellicent is as well, but you already have a water type and Tentacruel is kind of necessary for this team. Amoonguss is the most out of place on this team, I think, and it's just very important for a team like this to be able to protect their many turns of setting up entry hazards by having a spin-blocker. That's my main suggestion, but otherwise nice job. Chansey+Skarmory are pretty standard, Bronzong is pretty good in this metagame now with Garchomp running all over the place (plus every stall team needs a steel type). Tentacruel is, as I said, pretty necessary, not just for rapid spin but for Tspikes as well, which can really cripple some teams. Xatu helps with confusion, causing more switches, and preventing hazards from coming to your side. That leaves Amoonguss to be swapped out for a ghost type. He doesn't really bring much to this team synergy wise.
  7. Usatoday


    Nov 17, 2012
    I actually really like this team however with all these hazards you really out to consider a spinblocker as said above however I would suggest maybe going with a jellicent over your tentacruel but I know you do like your spinning on cruel however you could run toxic on xatu over confuse ray and perhaps taunt jellicent so it doesnt become set up fodder. Hopes this helps but a really really good stall team
  8. Jimbon

    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Jan 24, 2012
    hi there,

    stall is cool, glad to see someone making good use of it in this offensive metagame. but yeah, like any stall team in b/w, it's pretty hard to counter everything, but you can definitely try. i feel like your worst matchup right now is sun, as those carrying venusaur, volcarona, victini or darmanitan steamroll through a lot of your team. you really have no safe switch-in to any of these in sun, as chansey is used as setup fodder for venusaur and volcarona, while not faring well against victini or darmanitan. even your most reliable switch-in in tentacruel is 2hko'd by cb victini / darmanitan in sun, limiting your switching opportunities. there are a couple ways you could go about this to eliminate these threats. max defense politoed is one solid answer, as it means you have a reliable answer to both victini and darmanitan, while being able to change the weather against venusaur and toxic volcarona as it needs a boost or two to break through politoed. politoed would also work vs cm latias thanks to perish song, and helps out tentacruel thanks to rain dish. shed shell heatran is also a good answer for sun, beating 3/4 of these while darmanitan can be played around with skarmory / tentacruel as the majority are choiced sets. cm roar latias could also work, beating venusaur and volcarona, while being able to take any hit from either of victini or darmanitan. honestly, any of these would work as they patch up your main weaknesses, while if you choose any of these, replace xatu -- it seems like the most replaceable member of your team right now, as it loses to pretty much any hazard setter with an attacking move, while acting as setup fodder for a lot of things. i don't think preventing hazards is your biggest problem, especially with a reliable spinner in tentacruel.

    if you still feel like xatu has some merit on your team, you could replace another member, it's all down to preference. but if you choose to still go with your xatu, i'd recommend you change your moveset to heat wave / roost / toxic / u-turn or psychic, as it seems like you have a massive problem against ferrothorn, as you have nothing to beat it. heat wave + roost + magic bounce ensures that you will have no problems with ferrothorn, as it currently walls every member of your team. i'd also suggest changing your ev spread to 248 hp / 244 def / 16 spe, as with this set you outspeed everything up to max speed scizor, which is all you really need. dropping confuse ray and reflect really isn't that big a deal imo, especially given that confuse ray is very inconsistent and there's nothing stopping your opponent from switching out. reflect doesn't seem essential either, especially given that you're running a stall team and your defensive qualities should already be fine.

    another small change that i've found to work, is to try toxic > toxic spikes on tentacruel. toxic spikes are really lackluster in this metagame from my experience, as only 4 out of the 15 most used 'mons are affected by toxic spikes, which are the most common threats you will face. toxic allows you to hit things such as cm latias and thundurus-t as it switches in, while you also hit stuff like jellicent trying to spinblock, which is excellent as jellicent walls you otherwise and blocks toxic spikes with taunt.

    good luck!
  9. dice

    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Feb 24, 2012
    Hey, Katakiri!

    As more of a stall-based player myself, I hope I can help improve your team since it already has a great start! x) As you mentioned, the most troubling Pokemon to your team seem to be special set-up sweepers that can bypass Chansey's fata$$. The ones you mentioned are the most troublesome, namely Latias, Reuniclus, Venusaur, Thundurus-T, most sun sweepers, etc. A very common Pokemon you also failed to mention in your weaknesses is the ubiquitous Sheer Force Landorus. With prior damage on Chansey it sweeps your team flat. Normally, I would just recommend Levitate on Bronzong; however, you mentioned the importance of Heatproof so the change I recommend is trying out a CM+Roar Latias instead of Amoonguss. As you said in your RMT, Amoonguss has been thrown around and you are still unsure of what to put in its place, but I think Latias is the best solution. Latias fixes several of your team's problems, helping tremendously versus Sun teams (Venusaur!), NP Celebi who troubles you atm, Thundurus-T, Landorus, SubCM Rachi, etc. and provides the same resistances as Amoonguss. With this change, however, you do gain another Pokemon weak to Pursuit, but with smart play and the use of its 4th move + Spikes, you can eventually wear down the Pursuit-users. Latias also is a solid check to Keldeo, an even better check since sometimes SubCM Keldeo can get tricky for Amoonguss if you play badly. Latias also can help against Toxicroak at times since it can set-up alongside BU + Substitute varients and simply Roar out offensive varients, not being KO'd with Ice Punch. I really like maximum defensive EV's on CM+Roar Latias, but you can test it yourself and do whatevzzzz. Another thing you really need to try out is Toxic on Chansey instead of Heal Bell. Chansey and Xatu are status absorbs themselves, the former taking all status and curing with Natural Cure while the latter has Magic Bounce to bounce back Toxic's, Will-O's, etc. making Heal Bell not a necessity. Toxic is usually a necessity for Chansey from experience. It allows you to counter CM Latias and Volcarona pretty well, and you can also hit a lot of stuff on the switch which is always fun.

    The next few changes are more nitpicks and are optional changes, but I believe they could solidify the team even more. The first nitpick I would really recommend is trying out Rain Dance on Tentacruel instead of Knock Off. Knock Off has its perks, but I really think the utility Rain Dance can bring to the table in your team outweighs Knock Off's. First of all, Rain Dance increases your team's survivability tremendously as Chansey doesn't get hit by weather's passive damage, Skarmory loses its Fire-type weakness, and Tentacruel itself gains its Rain Dish recovery. A few EV's I would like to address would be Skarmory's and Xatu's: add a few Speed EV's to each. Make Skarmory's EV spread have 24 Speed EV's to outspeed Wobbuffet while adding some to Xatu to outspeed Adamant Breloom which is 56 Speed EV's. This makes both less of a threat since you can not be locked in Brave Bird and confuse Brelooms.

    [​IMG] Change to SubCM Latias.
    [​IMG] Toxic > Heal Bell
    [​IMG] Rain Dance > Knock Off
    [​IMG] 24 Speed EV's
    [​IMG] 56 Speed EV's


    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Roar
    - Roost
    - Dragon Pulse

    good luck x) cool team.
  10. Sirokko


    Oct 8, 2012
    Minor thing:

    I'm not entirely sure how viable u-turn is on your Xatu. With a base attack score of 75 and nothing in the way of EVs in attack or speed, u-turn seems like it wouldn't really influence the next attack, and in fact would leave Xatu open for one more attack by whatever you're switching against given its base 95 speed. I guess you could use it to fool someone into attempting to get an entry hazard in on the turn you're forced to switch, but I can't imagine it comes up enough to make it worth a slot.

    You've talked about getting more access to haze: I'd maybe suggest removing u-turn for this. It'd leave you without offensive moves, but you're a Xatu and thus immune to taunt.
  11. Joeyboy

    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Nov 30, 2010
    Gunna be a quick rate because I've got more work to finish before Tgiving break :)

    Anyway cool team, always nice to see someone trying to stall.

    I want to second Princess Bri's suggestion of Toxic on Chansey over Heal Bell. Your team really isn't effected by status very much. A burn on Skarmory or Bronzong is really the worst thing that can happen, and Bronzong and Skarmory shouldn't stay in on anything thats going to potentially burn them anyway.

    Secondly I want to recommend you change Bronzong's ability to Levitate. The main reason I recommend this is because of Salamence. With Bronzong's weakness to Ground exposed many Dragon-type Pokemon will have an easier time dealing with it. Specially Defensive Levitate Bronzong will still be able to take a rogue Fire attack from Salamence; it will not be able to take an Earthquake.

    I don't really see the point in Confuse Ray on Xatu, so I suggest replacing it with Psychic, it gives it some form of damage and allows it to hit the Fighting-type Pokemon it walls hard, namely Toxicroak.

    Finally I suggest running Toxic over Toxic Spikes, and Substitute over Knock Off on Tentacruel. This allows Tentacruel to beat Jellicent one on one and get that crucial spin off. You're not losing much on this as Toxic Spikes, is very average in this metagame and Knock Off as very limited utility. This change does make you a little weaker to SubCM Keldeo though, but Amoonguss should be able to handle that just fine.

    Good Luck!
  12. Curtains


    Jul 6, 2009
    I like your RMT's format. it is very original and easy on the eyes.

    Reason: luvdisc then, please don't make contentless posts

    But you team obviously gets destroyed by any type of sun team. Tentacrewl can only take so many hits and it may even get trapped by dugtrio. So to remedy this just change bronzong to specially defensive heatran. Therefore you have a better chance with sun. Try out magna storm heatran too. That might work well if you predict the dugtrio switch in. + bronzong is redundant with scarm and i dont see a big reason to have him with heatproof as it losses one of his biggest assets. Thats the best "rate" i could give but i just commented for your excellent RMT format and color scheme. Good team.
  13. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Sep 7, 2011
    Hey there Katakiri!

    I gotta say. This is the most beautiful RMT I have ever seen. I might just steal a format like this and change a bit of stuff. I feel a format revolution coming upon us! Lul anyway, this team definitely looks neat, but it's a little inconsistent with the more common playstyles, like Sun or Rain Offense (Thundurus-T especially--your only electric resist, Amoonguss, takes SE damage from Thundurus's optimal coverage option, HP Ice, while Chansey still takes some heavy damage from NP variants *gasps for breath*). There really isn't a fix to this because all the new BW2 threats have hindered stall's consistency and ability to wall as many threats as possible.

    The below paragraph is merely speculation. It definitely messes up synergy, switching ability, and the "full stall" aspect of the team, but it theoretically patches up quite a few weaknesses.

    The only "quick-fix" to something like this is to add a panic-button offensive Pokemon (generally Scarfed) to patch up offensive weaknesses by simply taking them out. Since Sun is really your most prominent issue, you could consider using a Choice Scarf Latios instead of Amoonguss (you said yourself that this was the most replaceable). They both have the same exact resistances while Latios has the ability to handle many Pokemon seen on Sun teams. Modest Venusaur is outsped and OHKO'd by Psyshock with hazards while Volcarona can be Tricked to make sure it can be handled very nicely. All the physical threats in Sun like Darmanitan and Victini are outsped no matter their item and taken out after some hazard damage. CM Reuniclus can be tricked to render it completely useless. Plus, Scarf Latios finds utility pretty much everywhere--not just against Sun. It outspeeds pretty much every other Scarfer and most speed-boosting-due-to-weather-mons (think Adamant Stoutland, Modest Venusaur, Jolly Sandslash) while still packing a formidable punch. Like I said, though, Latios is a panic button quick fix to threats and helps against offensive teams in BW2, but may change your stall play style quite a bit. To end this little speculation paragraph, I'll end with a resistance vs weakness comparison between Amoonguss and Latios:
    Resistances: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Weaknesses: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Resistances: [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]|[​IMG][​IMG]
    Weaknesses: [​IMG]|[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Immunity: [​IMG]

    Since stall relies heavily on weaknesses/resistances, I felt the need to do this. As you can see, Latios brings more resistances to the table than Amoonguss, but has 2 more weaknesses. Bug is handled by Tentacruel/Skarmory; Ghost by Chansey and Skarmory; Dragon by Skarmory and Bronzong; and Dark by Skarmory. Obviously, Latios is frail as paper and can't consistently switch into moves (even resistances), but it can be a two or three time deal throughout a battle if you don't want to pressure your stall cores. Also, another immunity to ground is pretty helpful for Bronzong and Tentacruel. I actually like the idea of Heatproof Bronzong, so I'd keep it :o A bit of bias in my rate perhaps. Anyway, if you want to try out Latios, here's the set that covers most of the threats you listed (theoretically!):
    Latios (open)

    [​IMG] (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Trick
    - Psyshock
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Surf

    HP Fire nails Genesect and other Steels that wall Draco Meteor while Surf is a general coverage move that helps especially against Heatran and Tyranitar. Personal choice. I didn't mention this before, but Scarf Latios also serves as a Trick absorber, something stall would definitely appreciate.

    Alright. Next. While reading your team, I was totally thinking to myself, "That Chansey needs Toxic!" ...but then everyone else suggested it here lol :[ However! I'd like to strengthen your lean toward that choice because Toxic is a fantastic measure against many of your listed threats, especially Volcarona. You may not always get a chance lay up Toxic Spikes early enough in a game to stop a lot of threats, so having a second measure is always a good thing. I'm not sure what to remove since I don't have experience playing with stall, but it seems like Wish is more important than Heal Bell. Since Bronzong, Tentacruel, and Amoonguss (or Latios) don't have solid recovery moves of their own (I suppose Regenerator is pseudo-solid-recovery), Chansey's Wishes definitely seem very important in keeping your stall cores healthy. What I plan on suggesting on Xatu will alleviate the loss of Heal Bell. Anyway, Chansey now has the ability to stall out threats to your team without relying on Tentacruel's Toxic Spikes, which as stated before, may not be put up in time to deal with a lot of threats.

    And again.. just like Joeyboy said ( :[ ), I'm going to strongly suggest you replace Confuse Ray on Xatu with Psychic. Confuse Ray seems extraordinarily situational and relies only on hax itself to be effective at all. Xatu has a huge niche in the OU metagame that is strengthened by having Psychic in its moveset; and that is its innate ability to wall any form of Breloom (except Stone Edge variants). Breloom can easily just set up 3 Swords Dances in your face if it doesn't get confused when the fact of the matter is: you can't touch it. Eventually, Xatu will die or you'll switch out, leaving something up for sleep fodder unless you pull a fancy double back into Xatu and catch a Spore. Basically, with Psychic, Xatu gains an abnormal ability to counter one of the most renowned physical threats as of now. When I was explaining the scenario with Chansey, I mentioned that the loss of Heal Bell will be a bother when playing against Breloom because having a stall Pokemon core broken is never fun. Now there's no need to worry about this since Breloom will 99.9999999% of the time be handled by Xatu. Since said bird also has an awesome 4x resist to fighting, it's also nice to be able to hit those Pokemon back for SE damage if they don't switch out.

    Andddd lastly, a very minor change: please please please change Skarmory's item to a Shed Shell. DragMag teams gained a bit of popularity with the release of Kyurem-B into OU, so Skarmory does NOT want to die that easily. All Magnezone has to do is predict the switch, and bam, you lose your Spikes AND switch into Physically oriented Dragons. Shed Shell makes sure Skarmory won't go down that easily. Simple as that.

    And that's it! Thanks for posting this innovative format of your RMT! Good luck on your team :]

    Summary of Changes

    • Speculation
      • [​IMG]
        • Change to Scarf [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
      • Toxic over Heal Bell
    • [​IMG]
      • Psychic over Confuse Ray
    • [​IMG]
      • Shed Shell over Rocky Helmet
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Thank you all guys!
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Jul 3, 2009
    Hi katakiri, nice to see that the DT Project gives to some good players the motivation to use stall.

    From the moment you started talking about your weaknesses i couldn't help but think of SpD Celebi. A simple set of Psychic / Recover / Baton Pass / Perish Song and a 252 HP / 240 SpD / 16 Spe solves any CM Reuniclus, CM Latias, and CM Jirachi problem that you may be having. It can also prevent Toxicroak from setting up, unlike Amoonguss (after Sleep Clause is activated). I also really suggest that you use Toxic on Chansey instead of Heal Bell, which you don't really need to be honest. With Celebi on the team you have two Natural Cure users, one Magic Bouncer, and the other three Pokemon are immune to Toxic, so i think you will be fine.

    Good luck and i hope you make it into HoF soon!
  15. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    Man oh man, this feedback is awesome! Thanks everyone!

    I've tested out just about everything down to Curtains' post. I'm eager to try out Gimmick's Latios, but I've been a little battled-out for a while so I'll keep on going down the thread, testing the new suggestions and any I missed, tomorrow.

    Set changes so far:
    [​IMG] -> Changed to CMRoar Latias. -> [​IMG]
    Latias is better than Amoonguss is almost every way that I needed, especially with taking down Sun teams minus the Growth-boosted Sludge Bomb Venusaur sometimes has. I tried SpDefesive Celebi before Latias, but again I feel that Latias is a better choice overall, due to beating Sun threats.
    [​IMG] Toxic over Heal Bell
    It forces me to play a little safer with my Tentacruel and Bronzong around Scald-users, but it allows Chansey to take out Volcarona and Latias which makes up for it.
    [​IMG] Rain Dance over Knock Off
    I really underestimated Rain Dance on Tentacruel; I thought it would be more of a gimmick but it's probably the 2nd most useful move he has now. Instant Rain Dish takes pressure off Chansey to Wishpass and, if Brozong does his part, Ninetales doesn't have much of a shot at keeping Sun up without Dugtrio.
    I didn't use Toxic over T-Spikes because I don't have much of an issue with Jellicent, who is susceptible to T-Spikes anyway, and T-Spikes are just extremely helpful for breaking Keldeo, Garchomp, Kyurem-B, and lot of other big threats.
    [​IMG] 24 Speed EV's
    Sac'd a trivial amount of Defense to out-pace Wobbuffet.
    [​IMG] Haze over U-Turn, 56 Speed EV's, Night Shade over Confuse Ray, Nature to Bold & Atk IVs to 0 to reduce confusion damage. (Atk is now unused)
    I found Haze to be an extremely good option and, as Sirokko pointed out, U-Turn wasn't doing much for me so Haze can stock CM Reuniclus cold while also giving me a free win against Baton Pass. The Speed lets me Reflect & Haze before Breloom can attack, shutting him down even further. Night Shade came from some of you suggesting Psychic; I mulled it over and decided that Night Shade was the best option as, with Reflect & Haze, Fighting-types are hard walled anyway so I can break them down with Night Shade, break Subs, and deal a great chunk of HP to any switch-ins.

    Heatproof vs Levitate at this point is a matter of what Pokemon I want Bronzong to beat/be weak to. Levitate helps me beat Choice/Stone Edge Garchomp, Salamence, and Landorus. Heatproof helps me beat SD Fire Fang Chomp, if I haven't revealed Heatproof, and Dragonite which both do over 50% to Skarm with Fire Fang/Punch while also being free to set up Rocks on Genesect, EQ Heatran, and help out with Magnezone.
    The problem with using Heatran over Bronzong is that it can't take a Life Orb Superpower from Tornadus too well which is the big reason he's there in the first place. Chansey's not really interested in taking it herself.

    I amended the OP to show today's changes.
  16. ToF

    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 13 Champion

    Sep 30, 2007
    the issue here is that sd terrakion will always sweep you cold. that's the problem with these types of teams in bw2. pair a bunch of offensive stuff with sd terrakion and that team will always bone this one. i've ran variants of your team and mostly all of them have trouble with hazards + thundurus + garchomp + terrakion. all of them are way too difficult to play around with a team of 6 walls. no combination of walls in bw2 can stop the aformentioned threats together.

    you need a scarfer as someone else suggested in order to be better equipped against things like double dance terrakion. or ditch xatu and run landorus-t in its place as probably the best terrakion stopper available atm. skarmory can set up on ferrothorn anyway and tenta can eventually spin. you need to figure out what you can afford to lose most - xatu or your spinner.
  17. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion

    Mar 17, 2012
    In addition to what ToF said, which is all correct, you're also super weak to Choice Band Tyranitar, who OHKOs half your team, 2HKOs the other half, and also outspeeds half. It's an unfortunate weakness and there's sadly nothing you can really do to remedy it because of the nature of stall in BW2. You're always going to be weak to something, and that's what makes it so unreliable. That said, this is an exemplary stall team, and though I question the usage of both Xatu and Tentacruel on the same team, it seems to be working out well for you, so I won't suggest any changes. But yeah, watch out for speedy BandTar especially - try to wear it down with entry hazards and Rocky Helmet damage and you should be good. As for your Terrakion weakness, maybe give Sableye a shot over Xatu, since in my mind it's the least valuable member of your team. Priority Will-O-Wisp is a good check to physical boosting attackers.
  18. youngjake93


    Sep 3, 2012
    You are still weak to Darmanitan/Victini. They're in a favorable position no matter who they're in against. U-Turn hurts Latias and Xatu, Superpower/V-Create hurts Chansey, Fire hurts Skarmory, Earthquake/Fusion Bolt hurts Tentacruel, and Earthquake/V-Create/Flare Blitz hurts Bronzong.
    Having Heatproof on Bronzong, Rain Dance on Tentacruel and physical bulk on Latias+Tentacruel is DEFINITELY doing you favors, but maybe you could try a 252 HP Kingdra over Latias? The 4x fire resist and double speed under rain dance would certainly go a long way for this team.
  19. tehy


    Aug 16, 2010
    And once again, we see above us a guy who's never run Spdef hippowdon, which doesn't care much about any of that, especially before it sets up.

    Why not just do what i do and run starmie? Hydro pump/surf can force terrakion out, especially after it CCs.It also helps with bandtar, because so often the other team will sacrifice something, then bring in Bandtar. Then you pump it in the face for about 65%.
    With t-bolt you can spin on jellicent, which tentacruel has no chance of doing, and with ice beam you can check dragons, which are a problem if they're aware of heatproof on bronzong. With psyshock, you get a secondary keldeo/toxicroak check.

    Alternately, like i said earlier, why not swap him out for donphan? A sturdy pokemon with ice shard means lots of checking, he's tough to spinblock, and he eliminates the rock-type weakness. I don't think you NEED a fast pokemon to check things on stall, but i run starmie, and i used to run exca, so... Still, i don't think any team except super HO has really been able to go without a revenge-killer/scarfer since the start of gen 4.

    Also, why not quagsire for zong? He won't entirely solve all of these problems, but he certainly helps, and you're not sacrificing that much in terms of usability.

    Edit: Youngjake, i never told him to swap it out. I'm just pointing out that hippo can take unboosted hits from all of those, and roar them out or hit them SE, which means that stall can actually handle it. If it boosts, then it becomes a problem, but it can basically phaze for a while, or deal huge damage if it's running ice fang. It's imperfect, because we're talking about ridiculously powerful pokemon here with great coverage. But it's pretty good regardless.

    And he has LATIAS on his team. And specially defensive bronzong. Theoretically, he could just run Spd hippowdon and starmie, especially since sandstorm is great for stall teams. But then again, i'm not here to make katakiri's team become mine.

    On another note, here's an interesting question:Why not just move away from a spinner entirely? The fact that you have xatu means that you'll only really have problems with SR, and with reflect, you're not insta-stomped by stuff like tyranitar, especially since there are plenty of them running around with no attack investment. Instead of worrying about that extra 12%, why not just ...an idea comes to me. Prepare yourself for... rocky helmet garchomp! Sure, it's not fast enough in the current metagame, but it can still check SpD jirachi,toxicroak, and thundurus-T, while at least speed tying with opposing chomps and forcing them to outrage, AND serving as a psuedo-spinblocker with a ROCK RESIST Ftdubstep. Meanwhile, you can slap lefties/shed shell onto skarmory, and wear down volt-turn teams with 25% a turn, plus hazards. Finally, it can run SR, and bronzong can have another move if you so desire. (Toxic and Hp ice are kind of standard and protect lets you scout/heal, but an interesting idea is TR-it gives you much more leeway against anything trying to set up against 'zong, since whatever you switch to will probably outspeed them, and you can always just decide to hit them in the face, without needing to predict whether, say, a heatran or a latios is switching in. And it lets you kind of late-game sweep.)
  20. youngjake93


    Sep 3, 2012
    SpDef Hippo is amazing... but he has CHANSEY on his team. Adding in sandstorm seems silly and Sand Force isn't worth it.
    Donphan/Quagsire DEFINITELY could fill that void though.
  21. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

    Jun 11, 2010
    I've tried quite a few things in the past couple days; a some suggested and some of my own.

    Tried SpDef Hippo again and I just can't make it work for me. It's forced out too easily even for a stall team. It would be nice against Sun but, ironically, opposing Xatu makes it pretty damn useless. The cutest thing I could do with it was switch it in on Venusaur as it tried using Growth. And again, the Sand damage hurts stall pretty bad, especially Chansey.
    Tried Scarf Latios and even Scarf Latias and they just aren't that great without a U-Turner to get them in. Since Rotom-W is still commonly paired with Scizor or even Ttar, switching in to take the Volt Switch or Trick became risky business very fast without the bulk to take the Pursuit and mid-game Bullet Punches.
    I gave Landorus-T a go in Tentacruel's slot for a while with less than stellar results. For taking on Terrakion and Garchomp, it's probably the best, but he doesn't mesh well with the team's weaknesses and resistances. He leaves the team horribly weak to Ice-type attacks and Cloyster specifically.

    I eventually decided to run a variation of the standard Bronzong EVs since I needed the Attack EVs. I also replaced Light Screen with Rock Slide since a few Pokemon were setting up on Bronzong and I felt they shouldn't be able to. The new EV spread is 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 SDef.

    After trying Landorus-T, I really liked having Intimidate so I used the handy-dandy Pokemon Selector to help find the ideal Pokemon for me and sure enough I found the perfect one.
    Qwilfish (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Waterfall
    - Pain Split

    The RU Qwilfish seems like a downgrade from OU's Tentacruel and Intimidate might not sound amazing for a 65/75 Defense Pokemon but if we reverse-engineer Intimidate's effect, on entry, Qwilfish's Defense goes from Base 75 to Base 137~; or 409 Defense and that looks like this:
    252Atk Choice Band -1 Terrakion (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 252HP/252Def Qwilfish (+Def): 42% - 49% (141 - 166 HP)
    252Atk Choice Band -1 Terrakion (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Qwilfish (+Def): 25% - 29% (84 - 99 HP)
    252Atk -1 Salamence (Neutral) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Qwilfish (+Def): 35% - 41% (117 - 138 HP)
    252Atk -1 Salamence (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Qwilfish (+Def): 38% - 46% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb +1 Cloyster (+Atk) Rock Blast vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Qwilfish (+Def): 61% - 73% (205 - 245 HP)

    Yeah. Qwilfish looks a lot better than Tentacruel right now. Special Defense is far worse but it's very manageable with Chansey, Bronzong, & Latias. I trade a little and get a lot in this case.
    As many of you said, I don't quite need Rapid Spin. Stealth Rock is the only hazard that's going to commonly get up since a lot of hard-hitting Pokemon can just throw it up, but Xatu walls all common Spikers in OU and only Chansey is affected my Toxic Spikes, which can be absorbed by Qwilfish so it all works out.
    Thunder Wave is an extremely nice option for putting a crippling status on anything that is immune to Toxic Spikes bar Landorus, Gliscor, & Thundurus-T. The speed reduction is great and the free paralysis turns can be game changers.
    Pain Split is just obligatory recovery but it puts opposing Chansey/Blissey is a horrible spot.

    The changes:
    [​IMG]Light Screen replaced by Rock Slide. EVs changed to 248 HP / 48 Atk / 212 SDef.
    [​IMG]->Swapped Tentacruel for Qwilfish->[​IMG]
    Quick replay (33 turns, short for stall) showing off all the changes: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4834796

    I personally feel that Latias is the most replaceable member of the team at this point. It does a great job right now, but I feel like I could squeeze a little more out of this slot. Latias' key resistances is Fire, and to a lesser extent Water for Rain Sweepers and Grass for Sun. Everything else is taken care of for the most part. I would like something to deal with NP Thundurus though because it's about the only Electric-type that's even a blip on our radar right now as well as being one of the last major threats I need to deal with since Garchomp, Jirachi, & Victini are at least manageable. The trick is doing this while not opening new holes in the team...

    Edit: Just for reference, at this point in time, my ladder account for this team is:
    oucurrent:ACRE=1794 GXE=81 Glicko2=1877 ± 59 (provisional) Win-42 Loss-10 Tie-0
  22. Usatoday


    Nov 17, 2012
    Ok katakiri I use to love this team alot but now I feel like its almost near perfect I'd love to ladder with this if you don't mind but for you need for a latias replacement if you want something resistant to water fire and grass a dragon type is the only option there so either a dragonite the parashuffler set might work but the rocks would definitely hurt it but again I think you need a spinblocker dusclops perhaps over latias? But for other dragons the only I can think of that would be bulky enough would be druddigon :\
  23. Svennerson


    Nov 29, 2012
    Please don't judge too hard, this is my first time posting a reply.

    I see that you have Latias there for Fire Water Grass but feel it isn't doing it's job. However, you already have a great answer in the Grass types in Xatu. Most Grass types use a physical Rock move as coverage on Flying, which does nothing to a Xatu with Reflect up. For this reason, I suggest Heat Wave over Night Shade on Xatu to become a better Grass counter. This also increases just how much Xatu owns Breloom, one of it's main niches on the team.

    With the Grass need out of the way, we can focus on something to sponge those Fire and Water attacks. Enter Standard Tank Gastrodon over Latias. Immune to Water, Quad Resists Fire, also helps on the pesky Electric which has a strong hold on your team. In order to work on the Water types it's designed to come in on, a surprise HP Grass or Electric should do wonders. Below is the Tank Set, but a Modest Nature and 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD is good if you want more power.

    Hope this helps!

    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Trait: Storm Drain
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature (+SpD, -Atk)
    -Earth Power
    -HP Grass/HP Electric
    -Ice Beam/Surf/Scald
  24. ScarlequinTheImmortalGod


    May 12, 2012
    Hey Katakiri sir, I hope you are well and props from the Almighty Eternal Immortal God Scarlequin on an excellent RMT both in content and thought process, I do however have some suggestions for you, which I believe would improve the team immensely, please take them as you wish.

    The main change I propose, I believe will make your team unbreakable. Looking at your threats, all but Victini are boosting sweepers, since your core is already near impossible to break down without boosts.

    For that reason I suggest you replace Latias with Unaware Quagsire. It is a wildly underrated Pokemon in the OU environment and it provides your team with so many new attributes. It gives you a Lightning Immunity which is crucial with half of your team being weak to Lightning. It also gives you a second fire resistance which is vital given Sun teams are certainly your worst matchup with the sheer offensive pressure they put on with Victini/Volcarona/Venusaur etc. It is the single best check in the game arguably to Nasty Plot Thundurus which isnt getting near KOing barring crits, and just the ability to ignore Quiver Dance, Nasty Plot, Dragon Dance, Swords Dance etc. will allow you to defeat all of Thundurus, Volcarona, Toxicroak, Victini, mixed Dragons etc. 1 on 1.

    The reason I believe Quagsire can work on your Powerpuff Stall is because you have all of the right support for it, Quagsires obvious flaws are Spikes and Toxic Spikes stacking from the opponent which clearly isnt happening when you have Xatu and Qwilfish, Taunt which you can also reflect back with a switch to Xatu if you see it coming, Trick, which again if you predict you can switch to Qwilfish to diminish their health with Black Sludge, Status which if its direct like Spore, Toxic or Will O Wisp you can switch to Chansey or Xatu, and if its indirect and youre not willing to risk the burn chance (Scald, Lava Plume etc.) Chansey absorbs those with ease. Grass type moves, you have Bronzong and Chansey to wall special ones, and both Skarmory and Xatu to wall physical ones. Quagsire appreciates Wish support also. Also the Reflect Support from Xatu can patch up its weaker Defense stat whilst you Curse up.

    Overall I just think its a perfect fit on your team Katakiri, let me know how you feel:

    Set - EVs: 248 HP/ 252 Sp Def / 8 Def/Atk
    Ability: Unaware
    Nature: Careful
    Ice Punch/Waterfall

    Having Unaware Quagsire MAY allow you to drop Haze on Xatu to make it a Dual Screener or fit Thunder Wave/Toxic onto the moveset but this is optional.

    Personally I think Rock Slide is too gimmicky and niche on Bronzong, I can see its merit but its almost solely for Volcarona and Thundurus unless Im missing something, since Gyro Ball will hit Salamence, Dragonite, the Latis harder and you have EQ for Fire types. Since you have an ultra solid answer to Volcarona and Thundurus now in the form of Quagsire, barring the rare Giga Drain Volcarona, you can afford to drop Rock Slide imo and replace it with either Trick Room or Rain Dance.

    Trick Room because all of your Pokemon barring Xatu are painfully slow, and with the decent neutral coverage of Gyro Ball and Earthquake Bronzong can deal a lot of damage as well as being durable.

    Rain Dance is just an interesting idea I had since you could run Levitate and then having used Rain Dance you would have no weakness for 5 turns. It would also make Qwilfishs Waterfall more powerful and Quagsires Waterfall also if you choose to run it though Ice Punch seems preferable . It would also disrupt Sand and Sun Teams. It would however mean that none of your Pokemon then resist Water although Chansey is still tanking any Unboosted Special Water Attack in the meta, and Qwilfish can take Physical water punishment. Just some options to consider.

    The final change I suggest Katakiri is switching the items of Xatu and Skarmory. Rocky Helmet on Xatu is excellent if the opponent's Donphan or Forry has foolishly used Rocks and youve predicted that and reflected them back since then you can punish them for Rapid Spinning and break their Sturdy in the meantime, there are tons of examples in other matches Ive played with Xatu in my team, 4x resistance to fighting is another reason Rocky Helmet works on Xatu, and the most common Hazard setters all run Physical moves, so if they are trying to break Xatu down you can punish them for doing so.
    Other Pokemon like Breloom, Skarmory wont be staying in for fear of Spore, so Xatu either bounces the Spore or gives the 17 percent residual damage on the switch in.
    Another reason for Rocky Helmet on Xatu is for Skarmory, whilst they are going nowhere against you, youve got no method on your entire team if Im not mistaken of taking Skarmory out. Since it will Roost off the set damage of Night Shade. Admittedly they will get PP stalled eventually but this is reason enough to consider Heatwave over Night Shade too.

    Leftovers on Skarmory solidifies its place as still one of the great Physical defensive tanks of OU.

    I also recommend this set for Chansey:

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 108 HP / 252 Def / 148 SDef
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Protect/Softboiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Wish
    - Toxic

    Protect eases prediction and it wouldnt matter if they set up on you due to Quagsire and Xatu, it obviously stalls Toxic damage too. 108 HP Evs specifically allows you to reach 668 HP which means after a Wish you can switch Skarmory into ANY attack with its Sturdy intact and it will end the turn with it back intact, whilst also potentially dealing some Rocky Helmet damage. These Wishes are large enough to fully heal Bronzong, Qwilfish and Xatu too, due to their mediocre HP stats, I think running Max HP is unecessary given your team. With this spread you lose 37 HP in trade off for 55.5 Sp Defense which is in my opinion an excellent trade off, particularly since you wont be staying in on the way overpowered Physical assaults anyway and Chansey is your go-to special wall. For the sake of being pedantic you can run 667 HP on Chansey and 333 on Skarmory to decrease Hazard damge

    Like other people I do recommend a Spinblocker on the team, its just difficult to fit it in without removing a key member, preferably Sableye, I dont know the exact set but there was an interesting Calm Mind set posted on the "Underrated movesets thread", you could go wherever you wanted with it, a Toxic stalling set, a standard Taunt WOW etc.

    Currently testing the team with my proposed changes, I have obtained a record of 16-1 so far, the only loss was against a team featuring Amoonguss which is one of the only Pokemon your Latias variant had covered that my change to Quagsire will ruin your chances against. With Regenerator, immunity to Toxic and your Night Shade and Seismic Toss doing set damage an intelligent opponent will keep their Amoon alive the entire match. If its the final Pokemon it doesnt stand a chance against Bronzong, Chansey or Xatu the way Im running it (Dual Screens), but its not a good situation relying on it being their final Pokemon to defeat it. I cannot think of a simple solution to this, I mean Psyshock on Xatu would do it but thats too focused on countering one uncommon Pokemon (Amoonguss) and not doing a whole lot else. Suggestions from other people would be appreciated here although could consider Destiny Bond over Thunder Wave on Qwilfish since it can get a surprise KO on that one Pokemon that is a huge threat to your team, or potentially force switches racking up hazard damage. Although T Wave is very good on Qwilfish it interferes with Toxic/T Spikes abuse and also makes Bronzongs Gyro Ball less powerful.

    I hope you appreciated this long rate dude, it took a lot of thought and time, so please give me some feedback on these suggestions. Again great job with the RMT, a pleasure to read Katakiri

    The Almighty Immortal Eternal Omnisicent God of Pathetic Quivering Scrubs and Slaves, Scarlequin xx

    Edit: Currently testing a masterstroke which I created, specifically tailored to this team: Focus Sash Weavile
    Its an unorthodox set, and puts much more pressure on Xatu to perform its role but I looked at the weaknesses you listed and ones I faced when testing the team (Sub Sable and Sub Pain Split Gengar, Xatu with Roost, Nasty Plot Thundurus, Garchomp, Amoonguss, Venusaur and Victini amongst the biggest of them) and realised that Weavile has the ability to defeat all of them.

    The set I was thinking is:
    Ice Punch
    Beat Up
    Ice Shard
    Low Kick/Pursuit
    252 Atk/252 Speed/4 xx
    Jolly Nature

    Gengar is the absolute biggest problem Ive faced with this team which is why Ive chosen the weak Beat Up over the slightly more powerful Night Slash. You explain that Chansey can take anything Gengar has which is true, but its doing nothing in return which means Gengar will still have its Sub when you switch out. Your current solution is to Wish then go into Bronzong and Gyro Ball which is badly unreliable because they will just Disable it after youve broken their Sub. With Weavile, you can Wish with Chansey, go into Weavile on the Focus Blast, take calamitous damage but survive due to Focus Sash and then outspeed and KO them through the Sub with Beat Up. Beat Up also allows you to KO Magic Guard Focus Sash Alakazam in one hit which is somewhat of a threat to this team once Chansey is down. It also gives you a solid damage method against Chandelure which uncommon as it it, is the biggest single Pokemon threat to this team.

    Ice Punch allows you to outspeed and destroy Xatu, Amoonguss, Tornadus, Landorus, Nasty Plot Thundurus, every non boosted Dragon and is your most powerful move overall. The method with Thundurus is exactly the same as Gengar, switch in Chansey as standard, scout their set, deal with it easily if it isnt Nasty Plot, if it is, Wish, then switch to Weavile, end up on 1 HP and then get back to full.

    Ice Shard is for Garchomp, Salamence, Landorus, Dragonite and others that have got out of control

    Low Kick is for Heatran, Tyranitar, Mamoswine amongst others

    Its a very niche set, which struggles to damage Politoed, Scizor, Jirachi, Volcarona, Rotom W amongst others, but I believe you have these dealt with in some way or another. Politoed - Chansey takes on any set, Rotom W the same apart from Trick, Scizor is laid waste to by Skarmory, Jirachi and Volcarona Im still running Unaware Quagsire

    Im not sure exactly how to rearrange the team, but this was just an idea I had in my mind looking at your threats
  25. Dungeons


    Sep 25, 2012
    Ok... no hate to quilfish, but Tentacruel>Quilfish. If you lead w/ him against rain, he heals w/ rain dish and black sludge. he lays down toxic spikes and gives you rapid spin support. Also, he has a high special def stat but not so good def to match Skarm in a way. I'll say that this is a team to love!

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