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DPP OU Pride & Prejudice - A Suspect RMT by TAY

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by TAY, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    At a glance:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    Hello Everyone! Since my computer is currently not working and I do not have access to shoddy, I am posting the team I have been using on the suspect ladder (for those who aren't aware, my RMT posts are usually tl;dr - and I would appreciate you reading the whole thing). Of course, I do have a purpose in posting such a useful team: I wish to present my argument for why I believe Latias is uber. I obviously realize that the test isn't over yet; however, as someone who has spent quite a bit of time playing the ladder I feel that I can form a valid opinion at this time (and I have been known to change my mind!). Anyway, my main argument against Latias is that it strongly centralizes the game around Dragon and steel Types. As evidence I am presenting my own Suspect team, which consists of simply 3 Steels and 3 Dragons. TBH I find it almost laughable that such a childish strategy should even work, but it obviously has, since I have been dominating the suspect test so far (for those who don't know, Jane Austin is my alt, I have been #1 on the ladder for most of the test even though I stopped laddering two days ago (albeit not by much anymore), and I am embarrassed to say that the misspelling was not intentional). Even if Dragon and Steel are the most "broken" types, it strikes me as a very unhealthy metagame in which the dominant strategy involves using only two types. I admit this team is an extreme example, but I would challenge any player to make a successful suspect team which does not involve 2-3 steels (this alone is evidence of a problem) and at least one dragon. It does make sense theoretcally, though: Latias and Salamence see frequent use because they are powerful, and make fighting type attacks less viable; Latias makes Heatran and especially Infernape less useful. Those factors allow steels to run rampant, along with the fact that they are the only dragon resists in the game. Magnezone in particular becomes useful since it provides surefire removal of those same steels.

    The basic idea here is that Magnezone takes out the steels would stop my dragons from spamming their STAB attacks, and helps Scizor sweep as well. Heatran is useful for mind games as well as its great resistances and powerful Fire Blast. Besides that and the detail I will go into later, this is really just a bulky offense team. The only difference is that I am able to pull it off with only two types which happen to have a great deal of synergy.

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    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Shuca Berry
    252 Speed / 252 SpAtk / 4 Atk
    Ability: Flash Fire
    Naive Nature (+Speed -SpDef)
    -Fire Blast
    -Stealth Rock
    -Earth Power
    -Explosion

    For a team that doesn't care about the opponent getting SR up, this is a monstrous lead. I played around with the idea of using focus sash instead, but eventually decided on shuca since I want to be able to switch back in after my opponent lays rocks and bluff choice scarf (or just explode), and it's almost impossible to OHKO without Close Combat or a STAB Earthquake. The beauty of this lead is that most players will assume I am running choice scarf and not Taunt it for fear of not being able to lay rocks, and trick doesn't bother me since I just get a scarftran. This also causes opponents to occasionally stay in as I Fire Blast, and allows me to bluff Choice Scarf later in the game - something that has been vital more than you would think. I chose Naive over Hasty because Outrage is a whole lot harder to take than Dragon Pulse.

    --------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Lum Berry
    252 Speed / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -Speed)
    -Dragon Dance
    -Substitute
    -Waterfall
    -Outrage

    Kingdra is here for me to reap the benefits of its water type (hi Metagross), as well as enjoy the almost-unresisted Water / Dragon STAB (Kingdra beats Empoleons who switch in anyway). The Sub + Lum Berry combo is actually really useful, since I can DD as they Twave or WoW and then sub the next turn as they try to do it again. Lum Berry of course will also cure my confusion after using Outrage, which is a huge aid to sweeping, and prevents people from "stalling out" outrage for confusion. Another handy thing about Kingra is that its lone Draon weakness is resisted by half my team, so I usually have a safe play when it is out. Kingdra is sadly my best switch-in to Gyarados, since it cannot OHKO even with LO Earthquake and I can deal enough damage between Outrage and SR to revenge kill with Scizor if need be.

    --------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Salamence @ Choice Band
    252 Speed / 252 Atk / 4 HP
    Ability: Intimidate
    Jolly Nature (+Speed -SpAtk)
    -Outrage
    -Dragon Claw
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge

    With Magnezone on the team CB Salamence is incredibly powerful. Usually I use Dragon Claw at first to scout for Steel types so that I can send out Magnezone (and if they don't send in a steel they will take a hefty amount of damage). I don't use fire fang because the damage it deals is pretty pitiful against Skarmory, and I have Magnezone anyway. It know it seems silly to use CB Dragon Claw when it is the same power as non-CB Outrage, but being able to switch out and save Salamence is horribly valuable. Since all of his weaknesses are resisted by steel I can usually find a safe switch, and come in later to clean up with outrage. I run Jolly mainly to avoid being outsped by other Salamences and CM Jirachi, but you would be surprised at how much of the metagame Salamence actually outruns. With Latias running around everywhere no one bothers to run Infernape; Gengar is a thing of the past due to all the Steels used to stop Latias and the Outrage users; and that leaves Azelf, Starmie, and Weavile as the only pokemon in the top 30 usage spots to outspeed Salamence. And with Azelf almost exclusively being a suicide lead and Weavile being laughably easy for my team to handle, Salamence is almost always faster than whatever switches into him - and when you're using a choice band with 135 base attack that matters a lot.

    --------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Leftovers
    252 Speed / 128 SpAtk / 128 HP
    Ability: Levitate
    Timid Nature (+Speed -Atk)
    -Calm Mind
    -Recover
    -Refresh
    -Dragon Pulse

    With the ability to switch into pretty much any Infernape, Zapdos, or status user set, Latias solves a lot of the problems that offensive teams commonly run into. I know a few people have been running Substitute to stop status and block Pursuit from TTar and Scizor, but I really appreciate the ability to actually switch into status users without concern. And honestly I have gotten into the habit of just double-switching straight out of Latias into Magnezone or Salamence, since it seems like everyone is carrying a hard Latias counter. Between this and Salamence and Magnezone it is pretty difficult for me to lose to defensive or even balanced teams, since no special wall can stop it bar exploders (The 128 EVs allow a definite 2HKO on now-standard 148 / 0 Blissey, though people have been using extra SpDef on suspect) and it is faster than just about everything that switches into it. It might seems weird to run max Speed on what would normally be a defensive set, but I really need to stay on the offensive with this team, and it is always helpful to outspeed opposing HP Fire Latias (since that likely means Scizor didn't work out as a counter).

    --------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Leftovers
    232 Speed / 252 Atk / 24 HP
    Ability: Technician
    Adamant Nature (+Atk -SpAtk)
    -Bullet Punch
    -Superpower
    -Swords Dance
    -U-Turn

    Caelum makes fun of me for using Swords Dance + U-Turn but I swear the set works! Rather than be a late game sweeper, it is designed to come in early and U-Turn out of the counters that switch into it, since Zapdos and Rotom cannot continually take U-Turn + SR damage, and Heatran always fears Superpower. Leftovers allow it to do this as much as possible, and I don't really need life orb to push through the resisting counters since they will likely be gone by the time I attempt a Bullet Punch sweep. 232 Speed beats Rotoms trying to beat adamant TTar (I think, I wasn't able to export to text since I'm not on my own computer), so I can get some decent damage and save Scizor even if I Swords Dance on their switch. This is my primary switch-in to Latias since most do not carry HP Fire, and U-Turn will put me in an advantageous position regardless of my opponent's play.

    --------------------------------------------------

    [​IMG]
    Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
    252 Speed / 252 SpAtk / 4 Atk
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    Naive Nature (+Speed -SpDef)
    -Thunderbolt
    -Hidden Power [Fire]
    -Flash Canon
    -Explosion

    Magnezone really makes the team work. It takes out the steels that resist Outrage and Dragon Pulse and a couple of Scizor's counters as well. Not to mention it has amazing Defense to take outrages and can explode to get rid of problem pokes. Flash Canon is there for everyone who likes to switch TTar in from their bulky waters, and the SpDef drop has come in handy as well.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Known Problems:
    ~Gyarados: can be a huge pain. After it DDs my only real option is Kingdra. I try not to let it DD in the first place, but with two choice users it is sometimes impossible to avoid.
    ~Substitute Latias: The only people who consistently beat me were the few that used this monster. I'm not sure why it hasn't caught on yet, but Scizor can't continually switch into SR damage and Dragon Pulse, and if they have a good scizor counter I'm in trouble.

    --------------------------------------------------

    Thanks for reading, everyone! This actually didn't end up being that long. Anyway, feel free to ask questions and obviously make suggestions!
  2. Imran

    Imran
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    I don't know if it's just me, but I always found that Life Orb Magnezone worked better than Choice Scarf Magnezone, and I will put forward my reasoning here. I found the ability to change moves after Shed Shell switching invaluable, and I'm sure people will be doing it more and more these days now you've revealed this team. It also allows you to Explode after dealing with the Steels, allowing you to get a Dragon in for free. If you continue to run Timid you could run Magnet Rise > Flash Cannon too, allowing you to fool things like slower Metagross (you could even run Magneton to do this!) This is more personal preference but if you do decide to run LO Magnezone then I'd run HP Grass so you can hit those Swampert who may switch in after Shed Shell, make sure you Magnet Rise first, you may not OHKO. The main problem with this is not beig to KO Scizor 100% of the time but generally I found it was easy enough to lock CB versions into Bullet Punch and LO versions will generally have taken a little LO before so you can deal with them that way. Sorry if that was a bit of a long explaination, by no means am I saying "use this" if your Zone has been effective, but at least consider it, I feel it might help [is Lucario common on suspect? I didn't see many, and you have Salamence to deal with it too =)]

    The Latias set actually looks pretty cool, I guess you might want to consider running a little bit more SpA for those more overcautious Blisseys, are those HP EVs there for anything specific? If not, why not test it out with 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe just in case (again as people seeing this RMT might decide to bump Blisseys SpD up to counter it)

    OK, so let's more on to some of the issues that you have been having, Gyarados (who I also found to be quite a threat on suspect) You could bump Salamence's Defence up enough to take a +0 Stone Edge from Gyarados, but that requires quite a large investment if you factor in Stealth Rock and you find find yourself losing a lot of Attack or Speed or both. If you don't want to do that, I fear changing too much else will upset the "balance" of this obviously succesful team, so I'd just stick with the current plan at the moment, play with SR, Outrage and Bullet Punch, although Kingdra is a makeshift counter. The best plan would be to go out to Salamence first to absorb whatever like CB Waterfall or Dragon Dance or whatever and get the intimidate, then go out to Kingdra to Outrage (taking a weak Ice Fang or Stone Edfe), that way even Latias could revenge kill and recover off damage later as a 0 Ice Fang does 50-59% (haven't seen a load of LO Dos, they will be more easily revenge by Scizor). You'll have most wiggle room if you play it that way. I guess you could chuck more bulk on Kingdra just for the cases where it has taken a little rezsidual damage prior to switching in or something, and to help it take Ice Fang + EQ, but again thats really your call.

    As for Substitute Latias, I think the quick Fix would be Changing Magnezone to Life Orb Magnezone (my original suggestion), again this wont be perfect, as you'll have to explode on the sub. The reason I suggest this is simply because it can easily set up on Magnezone and if you have the Explosion you can keep the constant offensive pressure on it should you need to stop it from setting up. And I guess just be very careful when you use EQ with Salamence :P Again not a perfect fix but one that will probably be "adequate enough" in the context of this team.

    Sorry if this was less of a rate, and more of a discussion of this team and how we can sort of nitpick it. Succesful teams like this generally can't be wholly fixed, either because they don't need it, or small fixes will upset the general balance of the team. So I hope some of this helped, consider the Magnezone, it served me well, and I hope your quest in convincing people goes well TAY.
  3. gec

    gec i've been crawling through the falling
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    Nice team man, looks pretty good (especially if you got it to #1).

    Now I just wanted to address those 2 threats you noted. Firstly Gyarados. Not so much Taunt Gyarados but as you said, Gyarados could rip a huge hole in your team. Theres nothing wrong with using Kingdra as a counter for it but at the moment, you have to use Kingdra to revenge kill it (because obviously with a spread like that you really can't afford to switch in).

    I suggest you go with 252 HP/160 Speed/98 Defence on Kingdra. That spread obviously makes you a lot more bulky, and random Ice Beams from the likes of Suicune/Vaporeon can't break it. Also, you net 246 Speed which obviously outspeeds Adamant TTar, so thats why I use it. Normally the 98 EVs leftover would be alloted to Attack but putting those 98 EVs into defence turns a +0 LO Stone edge from Gyarados from a possible 2HKO (45.20% - 53.11%) to a 3HKO (40.68% - 48.02%). even taking Stealth Rock damage into account, you still have a 47% chance to avoid being 2HKOed. I really recommend you use this EV Spread.

    Nextly, I think you should make Scizor a lot more bulky too. doing so would make it a reliable check for Latias. Just like the Uber Trapper spread, 252 HP/76 Atk/176 SpD/4 Speed makes a really good spread for OU Play. Obviously making Scizor this bulky will make Latias a lot more easier for you. Heck, you could even run SD/Light Screen/Bullet Punch/Brick Break or something like that to make latias even easier, and you will defeat Sub Latias.

    Great team otherwise. -GEC
  4. Astamatitos

    Astamatitos

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    Scarfzone revenge kills Lucario, Life Orb doesn't. Killing Lucario is a must for Tay's team as i see it (the only thing that actually stands a chance to a +2 Lucario in this team is Mence which is not really reliable) so it should stay as is.

    Onto the gyarados weak, i'd switch CBMence into a Scarf moveset as it both allows you to outspeed Gyarados even after a DD and OHKO with Stone Edge while it simultaneously provides a solid revenge killer to multiple stuff.
    Of course that's not really solving the problem, if i were you i'd even drop Earth Power or Explosion for HP Electric and use Heatran as a lure to remove Gyarados out of the picture early in the game.
  5. Imran

    Imran
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    If you'd have read not only the suggestion, but the discussion of it afterwards you will notice that I did mention Lucario as a threat here. I made mention of Salamence but if we look through it again, the only thing that Lucario can really set up on is Latias (I don't see Salamence using Stone Edge too much), which isn't really something that it will want to be setting up on until it is sure he only has dragon Pulse, by which point he may already have two Calm Minds in. I guess he could also get it on Salamence. Either way, point is I did discuss Lucario and left it completely up to TAYs discression as to whether he used it or not.
  6. Astamatitos

    Astamatitos

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    When was it implied that i didn't read the discussion that occured below the suggestion? I was just making clear the advantages of having Scarfzone as opposed to a Life Orb set.

    Lucario is indeed a threat to this team should Magnezone be anything but a Scarf set. Yes Lucario can't set up a SD easily on this team but just think of the predictions Tay will be forced to do in order to work around it.

    A common scenario would be Lucario getting in after a kill by say Heatran (should his opponent know he is not scarfed). SR is already down. Tay can either let Heatran in on a predicted SD and finish Lucario, meaning there's the risk of losing Heatran a valuable member, or switch out to Salamence that would take over 50% damage assuming both SR and Close Combat damage, rendering his backup counter to luke useless the next time a similar scenario occurs.
    And the same scenario can occur with not just Heatran, but with also Scizor should it be at 70%ish and LO Magnezone.
  7. Imran

    Imran
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    I see what you mean, I felt it was implied by the way you didn't seem to notice that I had in fact mentioned Lucario. But I guess to be honest we both have presented the arguments for both sides =D and it's up to TAY to decide. I think both arguments have fair points, so I guess we've done out jobs.

    EDIT: Reasons Venom?

    2ND EDIT: I was looking into this, and doing some calculations, heres what I found:

    your Magnezone Thunderbolt vs 4 HP / 0 SpD Lucario: 74-87%

    this will do more than HP Fire 72-86%

    so youll need LO damage and / or a CC Def drop to succesfully OHKO said Lucario.
  8. Darkartisan

    Darkartisan

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    You say that you have a problem with DDGyarados, I may have a way to fix this. I see the option of Choice Scarf Gengar here, as he can come in on the predicted DD and still manage to outspeed and OHKO with Thunderbolt. I don't really know Latias that well, but Hp ice will allow the broken sub, and if you want to, you can always just run Explosion to stop it if it's that much of a problem for you. This can also stop your need of magnezone scarved due to the fact that gengar can take care of Lucario with Focus blast, unless the whole idea is to absorb STAB dragon moves, then you could use Heatran for that if you wish.
  9. Venom

    Venom red eyes no visine
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    Keep Choice Scarf Magnezone, Life Orb Magnezone isn't your best option for Magnezone here. I don't see any problems at all here, and I do spot some, but they're small, I'm sure you can handle them, nonetheless great suspect team.
  10. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    heh LO Zone is probably my favorite, as it can deal with EQ Bronzong and OHKO Blissey. But I really need this to take out Lucario. It's also really handy that it attacks Latias first (with Explosion usually), since with a Naive nature and mediocre SpDef I don't really take too many Dragon Pulses.

    I have certainly considered it; when I get my computer back I'll try this out.

    OK I ran some calcs and with 56 Def EVs I can always avoid a +0 Stone Edge KO even with Sandstorm damage. The drop in attack makes it as if I'm attacking off of 128 base SpAtk instead of 135, which is obviously still formidable. Definitely worth trying out.

    My "thing" with kingdra is that I want it to stay fast to outrun Gyarados, Heatran, Heracross, etc. So I will likely look into doing something like this - and I will make Kingdra Jolly - along with Goldfan's suggested Salamence change, so that I will have some physical bulk to go with Latias' huge special stat. (Sorry I usually use shoddy to make speed comparisons =P )
    Yeah that would be helpful to beat Latias, but I would lose my ability to outspeed Rotom, Tyranitar, and the Bulky Waters with U-Turn, which is just as important. And I'm really not willing to sacrifice any Attack, since I need Bullet Punch as a revenge kill on DD users. Besides, no matter what I put in HP and SpDef there is no way in hell that Scizor is surviving a Calm Mind HP Fire. In short, it would help against sub Latias, but I would lose coverage against too many other things to commit to a change to deal with such a rare set.

    My original version of this team did in fact have a Scarfmence, but I found that I was outspeeding most things anyway. Everything faster than Latias is pretty much a joke for this team to deal with, and Scarf users might as well be free set-ups since this team has such good defensive coverage. So the switch to scarf really would just be for like Gyarados and Starmie, and I think the extra defense suggestions from Goldfan and GEC create less of an impact on this team's overall offensive power.

    --------------------------

    Thanks for the suggestions and comments, everyone!
  11. 13blue101

    13blue101

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    Ugh Pride and Prejudice, I hated that book. Well this RMT answers my question of "Who was Jane Austin?"

    Everything looks great, the team, the RMT itself and description of everything. My only question is "How do you handle the SalaZone combo?"
    Ive been testing out your team (sorry for not asking), and the SalaZone combo kinda hurts it.
  12. dizzleman22_main!

    dizzleman22_main!

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    Only slight weakness i see is possibly to opposing Salamences running a Dragon Dance LO variant with DD/EQ/Dragon Claw/Fire Blast;
    which is countered by Heatran, but if Heatran has already suicided you're in trouble.
    EQ vs Heatran without Shuca after one DD: Damage: 127.86% - 150.46%
    With Shuca that means it wouldnt OHKO, but everything else is ohko-d. the Dragons would fall to Dclaw, and steels would fall to Fire Blast. You could do some damage with Bullet Punch, but i'm sure it wouldn't OHKO the Salamence. You could stall somehow, and wait till LO damage brought it down into a range for Bullet Punch to KO, but that would be kind of risky. Anyway-great team, i can see why you topped the ladder with it.
  13. Slapjax

    Slapjax

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    Haha wow, at the start of the test i was number one for a while with almost the exact same team. The only differences were that i had a lum berry metagross as my lead, the uber scizor spread, and my kingdra was bulky and had return> substitute. I think that your team is much better, but i would strongly suggest the alternative scizor spread. I know it takes away from your u-turning strategy, but it's nearly impossible to ko without fire. I had SD/ bullet punch/ roost/ brick break. Sick team ; )
  14. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    @13blue101

    Well Salamence isn't a huge problem unless it runs dragon claw, since between my 3 Dragons I can pretty easily force an outrage and then KO it with Zone or Scizor or Heatran if it is still around. Non-scarf Magnezone needsd to run +speed to stop my Scizor from U-Turning out or simply using Superpower. I obviously can't stop scarf zone from revenge killing my Scizor, but a lot of times I can revenge the Magnezone in return. In dealing with Magnezone in general, I usually wind up OK because I always use U-Turn if I can (unless I will definitely win or deal massive damage otherwise). But I really like Scizor alive to revenge with Bullet Punch and take down Latias and Celebi, so my main form of attack is U-Turn.

    As for using the team, I don't really care. If no one ever stole sets and teams there would be no metagame anyway.

    @dizzleman: Yeah DClaw Salamence is a huge pain. Usually I have to double intimidate and then it will fail to OHKO Kingdra and Latias. So everyone use outrage ^__^

    @SlapJax: Lum or even Occa Metagross is probably better in general since it is harder to OHKO, but I really don't want to have a 3x fire weakness. Changing a fire weak into an immunity is a huge help, and honestly what I said in my original description regarding Choice Scarf is actually really important. I would imagine that people would actually try to taunt Metagross (though it could still work since trick scarf leads are pretty common).
  15. Slapjax

    Slapjax

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    Yeah i totally understand. In fact, after seeing this earlier i put occa berry on meta anyway. I anticipate a ton of people using this team, and metagross should be able to ko heatran with earthquake. I didn't really worry too much about the fire weak because my bulky kingdra takes fire blasts like a champ, and 9 times out of ten meta would just be exploding on a wall anyway.
  16. panamaxis

    panamaxis Allons-y!
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    Hey Tay, I've played you on suspect a lot and I can say this is a very good team. I would suggest running Psycho-Shift over Refresh on Latias, they pretty much do the same thing except you give your opponent the status. Your a bit gyarados weak as you already know but as long as you keep kingdra healthy or prevent it from dancing you should be okay. Have you considered rest > substitute with chesto? Kingdra is pretty bulky, so testing leftovers > lum might be a good option.

    Your sucess with yout team does show that you can win with just those two types, but I believe (although i may be wrong) that your strong point of the team is the magnezone + dragon combo, not necessarily steel + dragon combo, although thats sort of irrelevant to the RMT but I just thought I'd give my two cents.

    Nice Team Tay.
  17. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    TAY, this is an amazing team and I really can't fault it. However, I disagree with panamaxis' suggestion of running Psycho Shift over Refresh. Sure, Psycho Shift moves your status onto the opponent, but once your opponent is paralysed or poisoned or whatever, what's stopping them from just statusing you again? Thing like Blissey really won't care if they get Toxiced, and Latias won't be able to stay in on Blissey once both of them are poisoned. The Blissey user can just switch to a steel and stop you from swapping poison and force you out.

    Also, one small thing about Kingdra. Like panamaxis touched on, I don't see the need for having both Lum Berry and Substitute on the same set. Latias, Scizor and Heatran between them should be able to take on most status well, so I think replace Lum Berry with either Leftovers, Mystic Water or Dragon Fang.

    JM2[​IMG].

    LR.
  18. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Lum Berry seems a little pointless to me myself with Substitute. I'd rather see Leftovers or something like Salac or Liechi Berry if possible to give Kingdra a boost in either stat. The former is good for outpacing everything after a Dragon Dance at least, the latter for a little more power alongside the Dragon Dance. Mainly preference though.

    Really I can't really state a weakness that hasn't been stated or whatnot, so I really won't bother much with it. Gyarados could prove troublesome, but I'd also be aware of Tyranitar and Scizor on the same team. Granted that Scizor can handle the former and Magnezone handles the latter, but if either carry Pursuit and have the opportunity to switch into Latias, it could turn out pretty badly. But that's rather obvious and it's taken care of so yeah.
  19. Caelum

    Caelum qibz official stalker
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    This thread is being locked under rule 3:

    If you fix this then PM me and I will unlock your thread.

    I couldn't resist TAY ^_^.



    I've played this team 6 times kid :).

    Heatran:
    Is there a particular reason you are running maximum Speed? The Speed tie with Heatran seems largely pointless to me given your team, coupled with the fact a large majority are still using Choice Scarf. I really just don't see the point. I've watched your battles and I haven't seen one instance where this Speed tie was particularly helpful. I'm going to suggest to you a different EV spread. Let's use Timid, 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe. So, what do my EVs do? Timid and 224 Speed gives you enough to outrun Adamant Heracross and Kingdra. You still outrun Adamant Gyardos and friends as well. 32 Attack EVs gives you 201 Attack compared to your 217 Attack with 4 attack EVs and a neutral natured. Now, why did the great Caelum suggest switching to Timid? I see Choice Specs Latias being problematic for your team unless you have godly prediction skills (which you obviously do because you are TAY). By switching to a Timid nature you no longer are 3HKOed by a 319 SpA Choice Specs Latias Dragon Pulse on average. Furthermore, you are never OHKOed by 319 SpA Choice Specs Latias Surf and are not OHKOed on average even if you take Stealth Rock damage. Also, +1 (Calm Mind) 276 SpA Surf will also never OHKO a Timid Heatran even with Stealth Rock unless Latias is holding a Life Orb (in which case it still survives this on average). So, why do I care so much about Latias with this EV spread? Choice Specs Latias IS going to switch into your Heatran and knowing that it gives your team trouble my EV spread can help remove it from the picture early in the game. You attack and Latias switches in; they'll go for the Choice Specs Surf, and then you can blow up on it. If you want, you can change the spread to 32 Atk / 224 SpA / 252 Spe if you REALLY want maximum Speed. However, to sufficiently check Choice Specs Latias which everyone will switch in just merrily I really think you should be using a neutral Special Defense nature.

    You could consider the Passho Berry (Water resist) since you are using a gimmicks set anyway. Potentially helps alleviate the Choice Specs Latias and DD Kingdra / Gyarados weaknesses. Just a thought.

    Kingdra: Nothing much to say here. Kingdra is not a Gyarados counter =(

    Salamence: Alright. This team is weak to Gyarados that's been established (and a well played Salamence but you can work around that so I'm not worried). I'm concerned by a Choice-locked Earthquake. That's prime set-up time for Gyarados and Salamence. Eh, whatever.

    Latias: Let's see. You have Refresh and Recover. Why do you give a shit about Blissey? The most special defensive Blissey in standard is typically 651 HP / 385 SpD. That spread takes 39% - 46% from a +6 Dragon Pulse. Given you are faster it is likely you will beat it 1 on 1 anyway because of a critical hit. You are going to force it to Softboiled constantly so you'll drain the PP out anyway. Dragon Pulse & Softboiled have the same PP, just predict when the softboiled is coming and use Refresh or something or CM. Just intelligently drain the Softboiled PP and you'll be fine. So, what about Wish Bliss? Wish Bliss will typically be running Wish / Protect / Toxic / elemental attack. Now, lets look at the PP Calm Mind (20) / Dragon Pulse (10) / Refresh (20) / Recover (10) which is a total of 60 PP. Let's look at WishBliss's PP Wish (10) / Protect (10) / Toxic (10) / elemental attack (10) that's 40 PP. It should be obvious you are going to beat Blissey 1 on 1. For these reasons, why not just run 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe. I don't know, I just don't think Blissey is worth it. The Wish + Protect game can only go on so long. If it's Psych Up / CM Blissey you lose regardless so whatever.

    Scizor: Bahahahahahaahah U-Turn SD Scizor. WHAT IS THAT SHIT.

    Magnezone: Alright. I don't see why you are using Choice Scarf Magnezone. Timid Magnezone would accomplish the same thing and you can't really use this to revenge kill well anyway. I just don't get the point.

    Now, let's see how we can make this a good team ... errr better team yeah that's what I meant :D.

    Let's identify some "problem" areas.

    Choice Specs Latias: This is a huge problem for you. Well I know this because, well, it's what I used against you bitch! In fact, it's a bigger problem then Substitute Latias in my opinion. Latias can switch in rather easily whether it be on a Fire Blast, a Thunderbolt, a Choice-locked Earthquake, a Waterfall etc and with minimal prediction just destroy your team. Obviously you can get around literally anything with prediction (in most cases) but if you really look at your team you have a problem. Absolutely NOTHING on this team switches into a Choice Specs Draco Meteor at all. Salamence, Kingdra, and Latias obviously die; so how do your Steels fare? Heatran takes 49% - 58% from a Choice Specs Draco Meteor, Magnezone takes 65% - 77% , and Scizor takes 63% - 75%. Latias can literally just spam a Draco Meteor and just decimate the team. If you get an intelligent player (me maybe? maybe not) and they get fancy with some Surf predictions and Dragon Pulses you are in trouble. So, how does the great Caelum suggest solving this daunting problem? I suggest giving Scizor some significant HP and Special Defense EV investment and running U-Turn / Bullet Punch / Pursuit / Roost @ Expert Belt. I personally prefer to run a bit more Special Defense and HP EVs then the one that is currently on-site but that spread should be fine for your purposes. This should help alleviate your Choice Specs Latias problem significantly.

    Substitute Latias: My previous suggestion is your friend.

    Gyarados: It's really just offensive Gyarados that is a problem. Bulky Gyarados can be worked around with your current team. With Stealth Rock in play offensive Gyarados will be a massive threat. This is actually pretty tricky to solve without revamping the structure of the team. I had this weird idea about which involved changing 3 of the members and putting a Celebi in there but I figure you didn't want that since it basically ruins the theme so I'm not going to bother. Tell me if you want me to elaborate otherwise. Anyway, let's see what I can do here without changing the team too much. You could obviously make Kingdra more bulky that's a given. You could also try a Rain Dance & Draco Meteor Kingdra to help and make it bulky enough to take a +1 Stone Edge. Come in on the DD, Rain Dance, then Draco Meteor it. Passho Berry Heatran as I previously mentioned could help here as well. Have you considered Bronzong over Heatran? It would seem to accomplish largely the same thing. Just a thought. Meh, this would take a lot of restructuring to properly fix and I know you don't want that since it is a pseudo-theme team.

    SD Weavile: I find it funny you said this was a non-threat but this was the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the team. If Scizor goes down to Magnezone, you are in huge, huge trouble with SD Weavile if your team has a bit of residual damage against it (and I mean a small amount). I'm not really worried about it given it's uncommonality.


    So, not too many threats I can see. Nice team TAY. Well structured :).
  20. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    Uh...I have no idea where dizzleman is getting his calcs but with 405 Atk, a DD and LO, EQ does to Shuca Heatran a minimum of 142%.

    Also I'd probably just add a Bronzong over one of the steels, perhaps the aforementioned Heatran. I'd imagine Mamoswines and Agility Metagrosses to prove annoying. Bronzong can still Stealth Rock, has LS to help the team against Latias and can always blow up something random.
  21. TAY

    TAY You and I Know
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    Heh you were one of the only people who could consistently beat me.

    Anyway, if psycho shift gets rid of status even if my opponent is statused already then this would be a brilliant change. I'll have to look into that in the future....

    @Legacy Rider and Colonel M: I admit that Lum and Substitute is a bit redundant, but it has been helpful in many situations (especially against Rotom and Celebi). What often happens is they will Twave or WoW into my lum berry, and then use it again as I sub, giving me an extra attack. Sub can also "protect" the Lum berry as I outrage so that I can cure confusion and continue a sweep. The kicker is that Kingdra doesn't have a lot of options for a better attack...maybe like Signal Beam or Hydro Pump, but Kingdra is so important defensively that I wouldn't want to give it a -def/-spdef nature.

    Max speed Heatran is useful against other Heatrans, obviously. It is pretty popular, you know! The thing about specs latias is that once I know it is running specs I shouldn't have too much trouble with it. And no one will use DPulse until late game, so I don't think that maybe getting a 3hko on my suicide lead is really worth it; I would rather have it do well against other leas heatrans (which has come up quite a few times, actually). Specs Latias can't really switch into fire blast more than a few times anyway, and if it predicts wrong I can obviously kill it in one hit. Not to mention even if it predicts right I get a free set-up. And a difference of 16 Attack points is a lot =0

    Well the extra damage is generally helpful as well...I just used Blissey as a point to measure my calcs from, since it is the quintessential special wall. At any rate, the Softboiled / Ice Beam / T-Wave / SToss Blissey is still pretty common, and I can't PP stall that without incapacitating Latias in the process. And come on maths boy, the chance of me critting at least once with 16 attacks is only ~64.39%, which is a gamble I would rather not take. And although I could predict and drain softboiled PP, I likely wouldn't be left with more than two or three pulses afterwards. Besides, the chance of Blissey not freezing with 16 Ice Beams is only 18.53%, and, while I can't factor in the chance to unfreeze as they switch to a phyical attacker because I have no idea what it is, it certainly isn't in my favor. So yeah, beating Blissey isn't as much of a sure thing as you are suggesting. Though I do admit that Blissey was somewhat of an arbitrary choice, so if you have any suggestions for other things I should be trying to beat I am happy to listen!

    IT IS THE BEST SCIZOR SET hahhaahahaahaha
  22. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    TAY, just one other thing. I was playing around with your Latias' EV spread, and I was thinking maybe 148 HP, 108 SpA, 252 Spe would be more useful. What the extra HP EVs do is let it survive 4 consecutive Seismic Tosses when taking Leftovers into account (148 EVs give you a stat of 338; 338 + 3 x (1/16 x 338) = 401). This would be much more helpful when going 1 vs 1 against a Blissey as you would not have to Recover every other turn. With 108 SpA EVs and +6 you still 2HKO 148/0 Blissey 87.5% of the time, so it's not really that considerable a loss. A small point, but could be significant sometime =).

    Another thing you could do is reduce Latias' speed down to 330 to outspeed +ve base 100s, since this will give you more than enough SpA to 2HKO Blissey at +6. The only things your really miss out on outspeeding is Infernape and opposing Latias and Gengar. Since Latias walls Infernape to smithereens, and you probably wouldn't want to risk a speed tie with the other two as you have plenty of steels on your team, I think this would be a worthwhile investment. The spread would then be 148 HP, 184 SpA, 176 Spe/

    A faster Scarfer than Magnezone would also do this team quite a bit of good. I'm talking about Salamence here - changing from Jolly CB to Adamant CS isn't a horrendous drop in power, and with Stone Edge it would solve your Gyarados problems straight away. Also it is a really good way of getting rid of opposing Latias, which you mentioned can give you a bit of trouble. It would also make a very nice alternative late game cleaner, say if your Scizor has been killed by Magnezone.

    LR.
  23. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    While I don't doubt this team is good and works, it seems to have several gaping weaknesses that I'm sure have already been mentioned.

    What the hell are you gonna do against Weavile??? I'm surprised most people haven't caught on yet and used the old Magnezone + Weavile or Mamoswine combo, which utterly decimates teams like this. Once trapping and eliminating your own Scizor without breaking a sweat (and they will trap you once your Scizor decides to kill something), Weavile has the easiest time in the world 5-0ing you to hell and back. You also aren't looking to well against Mamoswine either as one mispredict costs you Magnezone, the only thing saving you from Ice Shard rape. But Weavile is a serious concern here, as it can Swords Dance against your Latias, who doesn't do shit with Unboosted Dragon Pulse, then proceed to OHKO every remaining member on your team, and not even Magnezone's slow ass can save you.

    Also, as already mentioned, Specs Latias is fucking murder on this team. The saddest part is that it doesn't even need to win the speed tie against your latias to buttfuck it as you don't even OHKO with your own Dragon Pulse (which is sad, but a product of "bulky" Calm Minding).

    Right now, it seeps Scizor is the only thing keeping your team together, and its gonna fall to Magnezone as they are everywhere. Losing Scizor will result in a loss against of the common strategies or combos:

    Magezone + Weavile / Mamoswine / DD Tar / DD Mence (the mixed fuckers with Draco Meteor, or the smart players that actually use Dragon Claw AND Outrage, or just Dragon Claw).

    Oh one last thing... DD Life Orb Gyarados with Waterfall / Stone Edge / Bounce also 6-0s this team :-(.
  24. Duck Tape Son

    Duck Tape Son

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    Simply adding Scarf Mence with Stone Edge can somewhat solve the Gyarados problem. Sure your outspeeding most pokes in their neutral state, but basically any DDer can negate your thinking and fuck alot of shit. I think adding Bronzong with Shed Shell over that Heatran can help with Tyranitar, although personally Kingdra should do fine even though it takes a hefty ammount from +1 LO Stone Edge. Just a suggestion
  25. Kir

    Kir

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    To see how it does, huh? Did you miss the fact that it is/was #1 on the suspect leaderboard?

    I'm agreeing with TAY 100% that, as he says, its sad such a "childish" strategy can work. This is a brilliant argument for Latias to stay uber imo, but that is another topic.

    As many others have said, incredible team.

    P.S. - Its good to know I'm not the only one to use SD + U-turn Scizor ;)

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