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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by sandshrewz, Jul 1, 2012.
Oh snaps. I forgot that Clefable is legit. Only set I really don't like is that Alakazam.
i'm surprised you have confuse ray mean look umbreon and curse misdreavus there, but not the infamous mean look/attract/perish song/protect female misdreavus :X
Well, I think Attract is one of the most common options on Missy, that's why I didn't post it here.
I've only ever seen Attract Missy twice in the past 3 or so years, personally. You sure it's a common option?
Really? I didn't expect it being so overlooked.
And how about Nightmare Jynx?
I looked into Nightmare Jynx for maybe a week before putting it down, and that was after Borat made mention of it.
I like the concept of the Mirror Coat spinner. Oftentimes Cloyster teams will need to use Toxic and Electric pressure to keep Starmie from spinning; Tenta can use that to its advantage and try to MC the incoming Thunder (and it's immune to Toxic to boot!). So you could even reveal Rapid Spin and still get Electrics to come in on it and try to beat it. If anything were to be replaced, it'd be Rest, probably for a Toxic of its own so it can mess up Misdreavus. If Rapid Spin Tenta is used the way it should, it should only be switching in on things that have no chance of killing it anyway, at least not until after you catch that Electric.
Nightmare Jynx ain't so hot. Not without Sleep Trap, that is. Even with Sleep Trap, though, it really can't beat a team unless it relies solely upon Zapdos (or nothing) for Sleep Talking duties. It's just too frail otherwise.
That Gengar set is really cool. The ultimate in assassination.
Also, if I were to bother with GSC Alakazam, it'd probably be this set:
Alakazam @ Leftovers
The standard is probably something like Psychic/Fire Punch/Recover/Support Move (Toxic, Twave, Encore, Reflect, etc.), but this combines two support moves and ditches the Fire Punch coverage. Psychic nails Toxic-immune Poisons, Toxic hurts incoming Ttar and Snorlax, which can then be Encore-stalled if they pick the wrong move (Snorlax tries to set up, Ttar tries to Pursuit). Recover lets it live longer than 5 seconds. It can't really beat Steels, though, but that's okay I guess, since a lot of them have poor Special Defense, and repeated Psychics on the switch will either force a death or, in Skarmory's case, Rest, thereby opening up Drumlax or something.
Granted, it's not very good, and Eggy can probably accomplish the same thing and then some, but hey, Alakazam is a dumb Pokemon to begin with in GSC. At least Encore can double as protection against Misdreavus.
Updated this till post #7~! Will continue to update this ^_^ There's quite a lot of good sets here; I wish I played those gens so I can actually participate in the discussion >.> Keep them coming~! Also, feel free to post non-OU sets!! :)
btw Umby was Magneton supposed to have Screech or Metal Sound ?_?
edit: woops that makes sense Umby! Thanks :)
Also, this is updated to post #20!
Screech. The idea was to EndureSalac against Dugtrio, assume a Snorlax/Blissey switch-in, Screech them, die, then bring in my own Dugtrio for the OHKO.
To nitpick on a couple things:
With roar vap, you're giving up a lot to counter something that can be countered just by being last, so to speak. Out of all the 4th move possibilities, roar is something I'd consider probably the worst option. I'd rank ib above it, for getting rid of egg and 2shotting zap where surf is usually shy, plus the freeze chance on ls blissey/ls starmie/raikou or something. Bp is a different utility altogether, but when needed, there's no substitute for it. AA is pretty straight forward choice, standard really. ST is obviously top choice. Sub is a possibility if thunder is popular enough. Roar literally only helps against suicune. Well attract missy too but yeah.
I used HB drumzard to troll fm and some others (zfs, flameout, etc). Ironically, it's one of those sets that work a lot better against better players. Playing calculatively and assuming you're going boggy is where it shines. Never used it in anything serious though.
I also think subseed egg is fairly standard as an alternative set (think in terms of psong gengar). I want to credit it to vil though, although I do know how much umby likes it. Just that when I suggested it for that jolt team of yours, I definitely got the set from vil.
Ml pass umby with either cray or sa should be up there as pretty gay but very workable sets.
If sing isn't the standard on fable, it should be. I haven't considered encore a legitimate option for the better half of this decade. Fb and hp ground are also standards a la snorlax.
The real problem with creative sets is that if they're really legitimately good, then they become standard sets and are no longer creative. That was the case with so many sets, charmbreon was a creative set gone standard. Same with encore raichu. Same with growth vap. Mixed dnite. The kanga set listed is the only set I'd ever use on her, and nitro ran it to great affect against some pretty good players. Subseed egg is ultimately a go to option for spikes abuse now. The time context is important imo.
HB charizard deserves its spot though.
Bordering gimmick, we have hp fire zap/kou, to hit both egg and steelix.
Triple attack zapdos is pretty good "mixed sweeper" (hp water, dp, thunder/bolt).
Idk if it's just me, but if and when I do run psong gengar, I always do it with two attacks and no protect. Cause I'm baller. ML + explosion has become standard now, so this toss up means I get to take your monolax for free.
Clamp cloy, if it isn't standard, deserves a spot. If it is, then clamp screech cloy definitely gets the spot.
We have jolteon running sub hp water agi pass (no tbolt), but a lot of pokemon can pull this off. Charizard can pull it off without FB, basically using its typing and its standardness for a one-time potentially gamebreaking surprise.
Expanding on the above, EQ/FB/LK/SD snorlax is a prime example and pretty awesome for explosion teams. You're forced to explode on zapdos or something if they catch on though, but when is getting zapdos a bad thing?
Random cursing bulky things, suicune is great, with either st, roar, or mirror coat in slot 4. Kingdra can pull it off too if it wants to.
I'd consider both thunderlax (with surf) and toxiclax good entries, as they never really picked up enough steam to hit standard status despite being in existence for so long.
I ran hp fighting haze rest talk dnite strictly to counterlax, but that doesn't work so well vs DE.
PS Jesus this was hard to type on the iPad. Pokemon should be a part of the standard dictionary.
PPS Yeah I'm aware I came off as a huge asshole with this post.
Sorry for double post, but iPad is limiting my multitasking.
@Magnuss: I'm really digging the psychup cune. Love it love it. Cune has the worst 3-move syndrome of any poke in GSC. This is awesome. This deserves recognition as probably the most interesting set I've seen in the past 3 or so years and definitely has potential. Not metagame changing or anything, just a potential change to the dynamics of suicune standard sets.
That missy is better off with Pain Split. And it's not as good in practice as it is on paper when I used it god knows when.
Blissey, cloyster, pgon2 are all using standard sets (imo). Tenta's spin set is fairly standard as the only alternative set that's available to it.
I used that buzz, ideal 4th is toxic. But it's really not that good either lol, giving up lax to cover starmie is a gimmick. Not to mention, it doesn't cover starmie all that well, as you're not stopping spin anyway.
Some RBY sets
Earthquake / Surf
SelfDestruct / Reflect / Hyper Beam
I really like this thing. While many people may think it works like the amnesia+reflect set which is meant to set up and never switch back, this actually plays more like the standard snorlax set. It's main selling point is to easily rest loop against Chansey, shrugging off any damage taken, which also lets snorlax switch into chansey not caring so much about taking a twave or a hit. SD is there because if you are not facing chansey then it's really hard to pull off rest against anything else, so SD works great. Reflect is obviously a great option too, but the problem is that special mons with stab (alakazam, exeggutor, lapras, cloyster, slowbro, zapdos, jolteon, stab starmie) will still force you out while resting so you won't be able to restloop against physical sweepers anymore. I consider this snorlax a resting fishlax with 3 moves.
Body Slam / Thunderbolt
Hyper Beam / Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Counter
Sing / Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Counter
It's generally classified as a worse Chansey, but Clefable can actually hit Chansey and Alakazam really hard thanks to STAB Body Slam and Hyper Beam while still being able to status and boltbeam (or even Counter) A very unpredictable Pokemon that is not hardwalled by anything although it doesn't match up especially well against anything not named Golem or Rhydon.
Hyper Beam / Rest
It's undoubtely great. The thing is, can we consider it standard already?
You'll need to paralyse Alakazam and especially Starmie first, but if you do it, Kingler is going to be dangerous. It still has problems against Exeggutor and Lapras, but macthes up well against physical mons, especially golem/rhydon, and against weakened and/or para'd stuff, like chansey or zam.
Blizzard / Surf
It's not really that good but Victreebell and Gyarados were already done so... The idea is to put Starmie or Alakazam to sleep (which ever your opponent is using hopefully not both), amnesia up and hit normals and ices for SE damage with Submission. Blizzard is useful for hitting Egg for SE, who will otherwise beat you, but Surf can be useful againsy paralysed zams or maybe tauros/snorlax. This thing also loses to Slowbro though.
EDIT: And talking about Victreebell, I think Hyper Beam is a (much) better alternative to Body Slam in the SD set. And Stun Spore an alternative to sleep powder.
mega bump from the third page >.>
The reason why I've not updated this for so long is because I've no idea which sets are worth putting into the OP, haha >.> Soooo I'll need people familiar with the gens to help identify which are the good sets to be included. Please don't let this fall to page 2 again ;_; Sorry .-.
I think Curse Roar Sub Kanga should be moved from SMWaT to URM/P. It's the standard set (and the only set worth using) of an uncommon pokemon.
Also, I think my lax set deserves a spot in the OP! As for the others though, Cloy's already standard, and the other three are gimmicks at best (although Clefable is actually not that bad!)
I don't think RBY RestLax should be listed as an "underrated" set. Maybe ReflectLax in particular, but not just with Rest and all those slashes the way it's currently listed.
Anyway maybe you should also post GSC SDCurseLax. That was a pretty cool idea. Also GSC CurseDrum Snorlax is probably worth a shout-out, I might write up a bit more about it later unless Borat is alive and would rather post it.
Also there's CurseKissBlast Snorlax, ToxicLax which is kinda goofy but nonetheless effective, Surf + Thunder MixLax which is still good even without a lot of Rhydon thanks to Thunder's para chance (you might even be able to get away with EQ>Surf, though Surf is nice for Cursing Normal resists), and even Substitute CurseLax can be pretty nasty at times.
Basically there's about a million GSC Lax sets that could go on here.
Okay I moved Kanga down. Thanks ^_^ For your sets, I'll leave it open for more people to nominate it up :P It'll be great if you could expand the description a little more to a short paragraph or something. And Clefable .-. Hipmonlee used it against me for Victory RoAd and I didn't know what to expect and got wrecked >.> It hit harder than I expected lol!
I don't mind lumping a dozen Lax sets into one hide tag! :) If you're (or whoever is) willing to write out the sets or something, that'll be great! :D I still don't know much about GSC so I'll be relying on the general consensus etc! :)
i like this thread so i'm gonna necro it with one of my favorite dpp sets, wish jolteon.
Jolteon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 128 HP / 204 SAtk / 176 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Baton Pass
i love this set. jolt is an underrated mon in general but when it is used it's usually as a specs/LO attacker. this set sticks around for a while and is faster than entire teams who often don't have anything speedier than a scarftar. passing subs is always a fun concept, if a bit unreliable, but jolt's speed allows it to pull it off consistently. it's a great gyarados partner, as jolt absorbs [often scarfed] tbolts, and a sub can be passed to gyara against the grounds that wall jolt [hippo, glisc, pert, duggy]. i use it on one of my better dpp teams and not only is it consistently effective, it's also fun to use.
Old thread, but I might as well contribute.
There's a version of this that I've used to great results before.
Yes, that's Withdraw.
Okay, first off is the STAB choice. Surf has more base power and more PP, I know. But you don't have Thunder Wave to break through Chansey and Starmie, so the 30% chance of Special-falls (in RBY) can save your neck. The super-effective hit on Gengar and Victreebel is also a really big deal, since both of those are dire threats to Slowbro with Thunderbolt and Razor Leaf respectively. You lose the SE hit on Rhydon and Golem, and the neutral hit on Jynx and Zam. Jynx isn't laying a finger on Slowbro anyway so that's not a big deal, Zam is a bigger problem but we'll come back to that one, as well as Rhydon/Golem.
Withdraw is a crappy move, but it's useful for this set for a couple of reasons:
1) +Def on Slowbro is nice given that Explosion's a really predictable answer to it, and Tauros and Rhydon/Golem love to pound on it when it's asleep. This is why you don't need Surf's SE hit against Rhydon - with a single Withdraw up, it won't even 4HKO without a crit and you can set up on it.
2) Withdraw has 64 PP. This may not sound particularly relevant in RBY, but Slowbro, particularly +Def Slowbro, forces stall wars an awful lot. Withdraw allows you to use Slowbro as an anti-setup setup, because you can bring it in, set up alongside your opponent, and then stall them out of their recovery move so you can KO them. That you're left with a 999 Defense, 999 Special Slowbro afterwards is what we call "icing on the cake". Withdraw Slowbro is also capable of stalling Zam out of Recover, allowing you to beat it that way if you can't get it paralysed beforehand (if it's paralysed, you're probably better off just smashing its face in with Psychic Special-falls).
The main downside of this set is that you're giving up T-wave - this makes Slowbro even more of an all-or-nothing gambit, since TobyBro will usually at least paralyse Starmie or Tauros before going down and give the rest of your team an advantage there. It likes a lot of paralysis support from teammates - specifically it wants Zam and Chansey paralysed (Yes! I did just tell you to paralyse Chansey!), and preferably Lax and Egg as well (so that you can throw up Withdraw before they Explode). Paralysing Starmie or Tauros is obviously great news, but good luck with that; this Bro handles Tauros fairly well anyway and your best bet on Mie is probably to blow up your own Egg or Lax on it. If they have Victreebel, do anything you possibly can to paralyse it before Slowbro comes out; Psychic Bro isn't fully countered, but Razor Leaf still hurts like hell. Same goes for Electrics if they have them, though killing them is preferable. Gengar's not a big issue because of Psychic's SE hit, but paralysis is still nice to avoid that one-in-five chance of Gengar popping in and immediately critting Thunderbolt for an OHKO.
Really, this thing does best when you build an entire team around it like I did, but when you can get it to shine, it's a superstar.
Hi so I feel like posting some of those GSC Snorlax sets I alluded to way back when.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
ThunderLax. Hits the Cloyster hard, gets para against Miltank without having to use weaksauce Body Slam, and all while still murdering Skarmory. Surf is more useful against Steelix/Rhydon while still hitting Ttar somewhat hard, but EQ makes him useful against Ghosts who might block SelfDestruct. Forretress is always an annoyance, but you gotta trade something off, I guess. I like SelfDestruct for ultimate surprise factor so that you can get a good 2-for-1 going, but if you're a pansy you could run Rest.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
CurseDrum Lax. They using Charm Umbreon or Growl Miltank to wall your Curselax? Surprise them with this puppy and watch them "oh shit" as you Drum up on that turn they expect you to use Curse again! If you pull the wool over their eyes, they can't even Explode their way out of the jam thanks to your Defense boosts! Body Slam is probably the better STAB so you can provide paralysis support when not drumming, but Frustration is useable if you want more OHKOs. This needs Pursuit support from Ttar to work, just like any non-EQ Lax set.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Another way for Lax to get around the Growl stallers. Substitute is also nasty for dealing with stuff like Gengar who may wall the slam + blast combo, but can't break Lax's subs in one hit. Fire coverage is necessary for it to be an offensive weapon, otherwise Skarmory laughs.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Old-school unconventionality, this lax decides to use Toxic, and it actually works pretty nicely to force Umbreon to Rest, Miltank to waste Heal Bells, and Rocks/Misdreavus to slowly erode. Gengar can be a problem, though. Generally used on stall teams that utilize Toxic and Spikes to push passive damage on the opponent.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Similar to the Sub set, but plays a bit differently due to the lack of Sub. CurseKissBlast annihilates standard stall (not that standard stall requires a gimmicky lax to beat or anything), whereas SlamBlastEQ gets maximal coverage, does not necessitate Pursuit support or get cockblocked by Rocks, and can spread paralysis to get past threats like Miltank that you'd otherwise need LK to get past.
Snorlax @ Leftovers
A cool idea from Crystal, this masquerades as standard Curselax and kills the opponent's Skarmory with +1 STAB Selfdestruct (it does 81-96%!!!). It's a very low-risk Explosion since nobody's going to fuck around trying to bring in a Ghost on a Curselax that's setting up and is known to carry EQ. Belly Drum is a variant that's usable on Baton Pass teams to take out their Skarm for your other AgiPass targets. After Drum, Selfdestruct will kill a Skarm, guaranteed.
Damn Jorgen used my victrebel set (sleep powder/stun spore/razor leaf/ wrap). I use it in my current team. It's probably the most underrated set in RBY.
Basically, this is a jynx that can force chansey out of a freeze war (if it doesn't get slept). Assuming no crits by chansey, jynx can rest loop chansey and afford to hit it once between cycles. It's not ideal, but you can use it if you don't want to risk getting your own chansey frozen. The only big thing you lose from dropping psychic is that you can't touch lapras or cloyster, but you have the rest of your team for that. It basically makes jynx more versatile, as it can now enter freeze wars without sacrificing its ability to sleep, be a good sleep absorber, and threaten certain pokemon like eggy and would-be physical switch-ins.
You mentioned Lapras and Cloyster as problems, but you neglected to mention Tauros. Getting Jynx's Rest turns off requires switching into Tauros twice, and there is no way around that.
I used to think that was a problem, but I realised that baiting a narrow range of pokemon can be a good thing, no matter how threatening those pokemon are. When I used jynx I'd just switch immediately after resting because they'd always go to lax or tauros.
My team also had 2-3 pokemon that could switch into them, which was a deliberate part of the team building process.
The issue is that you have to switch into Tauros to get the Rest turns off, because double-switching means that the sleep counter hasn't decreased.
But it doesn't necessarily need to wake up. If your absorber needs to wake up to justify its selection then it's not a good absorber. If they're always going to go tauros, then you effectively have a means of forcing chansey out. If they don't like the MUs you set up with the double switch and switch differently, then mindgames ensue.
If what you're saying is that it can't keep switching into chansey, then that's assuming its tbolting all the time, which it won't be. If it does, then that's pretty easy to switch something else into.
I said "REST" turns, Dre. The whole point of Rest is that it recovers HP so that things don't die. But Rest Jynx dies anyway unless you switch into Tauros. Thus, Rest on Jynx isn't very useful.
Jynx is indeed great as a sleep absorber, but not as a Rester.