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Resource PU Old Gens + Discussion

Discussion in 'PU' started by Akir, Mar 5, 2017.

  1. UBERSkitty

    UBERSkitty

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    98
    So, I'm here to make some Gen 4 Viability Ranking nominations...

    Drifblim A --> A+

    [​IMG]
    Drifblim has proven to be a large threat in PU mainly due to it's Sub CM set. It is a great late game sweeper, with a limited amount of answers, who can be handled or at least weakened over the match before Drifblim is sent out. It hits most of the tier with it's STAB Shadow Ball and great coverage in the form of Thunderbolt. It can use many mons as setup fodder, being able to switch on many mons easily due to having a good typing, along with decent natural defenses and that fantastic HP stat, that walls many mons. And that's not to mention the Special Defense Boost it gets through Calm mind, along with the boosted Special Attack and the Speed from Unburden, which outspeeds all unboosted mons. On top of that, it doesn't have to fear being statused thanks to sub, so slowing it down with paralysis or widdling it's HP down with burn or toxic cant be used as answers. This all allows Drifblim to rightfully claim it's place in A+ of Gen 4 Viability Rankings.

    Gastrodon B+ --> A-
    [​IMG]
    Gastrodon is great since it is able to be used as an answer for some of Gen 4 PU's greatest threats, such as Poliwrath, Rhydon, and Muk. It has good defenses and a great HP, along with a great defensive typing. It can run multiple sets, either specially defensive or Curse Setup, making it that much less predictable as to which set it will be. It gets great coverage by simply running it's STAB attacks, in the form of Waterfall and Earthquake. It has reliable recovery in the form of Recover, make it able to switch in that many more times, and can easily get opportunities to take advantage this as it forces out the mon it switches in on. As for its switchins, it can run toxic to widdle them down, limiting how many times they can switch in and out. It can also run curse, which can raise its already good Defense, allowing you to invest more in it's Special Defense, long with it's Attack, letting it put an even larger dent in the opponent's team, all at the risk or lowering Speed, which your not outspeeding much with in the first place. So get Gastrodon out of B+ and move it to the Big League that is A-. That may have been an unintentional reference. I'm not sure.
  2. Charles A. Theist

    Charles A. Theist

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2015
    Messages:
    22
    Hey look guys, a post I'm making that's not about a FU tournament or nicknames for Pokemon!

    So I guess while I'm here I might as well post some stuff that I've been liking about ADV, some stuff I'm not a big fan of and perhaps my thoughts on some random niche Pokemon I like, because memes.

    [​IMG]
    Seviper @ Poison Barb
    Ability: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Earthquake
    - Crunch
    - Flamethrower / Giga Drain / Body Slam

    Grass Types annoying all of your offensive Waters? Need to get rid of typical physically defensive 'mons? Am I sounding like an infomercial? Perhaps, but Seviper is a pretty great wallbreaker nonetheless with its great movepool and offensive stats. Seriously it can take advantage of quite a bit floating around in the meta right now and open a lot of doors for your sweepers. Unfortunately its low speed and lack of solid bulk makes it pretty easy to wear down, be force out or be revenge killed by the likes of CB Diglett, Furret, Abra, etc., as well having trouble with a few walls itself, such as Lileep (assuming no poison), defensive Wailord, and Pelipper. Despite these rather bothersome issue, I feel the offensive presence it provides, as well as its synergy with many popular offensive sweepers and wall/stallbreakers more than makes up for them.

    wall of fun calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Tropius: 244-288 (60.8 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Seviper Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lairon: 231-272 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Seviper Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corsola: 161-190 (51.2 - 60.5%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Wailord: 186-219 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    4 SpA Seviper Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Duskull: 127-150 (52 - 61.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    4 SpA Seviper Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Koffing: 129-152 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    4 SpA Seviper Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Clamperl: 100-118 (36.4 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. +2 252 HP / 4 Def Clamperl: 85-100 (31 - 36.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO

    4 SpA Seviper Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dustox: 151-178 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    4 SpA Seviper Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pineco: 306-360 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Seviper Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tentacool: 255-300 (90.1 - 106%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO (please don't run this, just wanted to emphasize that physically defensive Tentacool is bad)

    4 SpA Seviper Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Piloswine: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lickitung: 188-222 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lileep: 125-148 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Poison Barb Seviper Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 107-126 (33 - 38.8%) -- 6.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery



    [​IMG]

    This thing is a cancer in ADV. Not much I can say that hasn't already been stated by user Solar Flare, other than it being able to flinch down would be checks like Duskull, Tropius or Koffing with Rock Slide.



    [​IMG]

    Sure, Minun and Voltorb have a much better speed tier, and yes Chinchou has an awesome Water / Electric dual STAB typing, so why use Flaaffy over the three of them you might be wondering? Well, Flaaffy still has a walloping 80 SpA, and I feel a bit more important reason: Access to Fire Punch and Cotton Spore. With Fire Punch covering much of the same threats as HP Ice that something like Minun would have to use, while still being able to opt for HP Grass for threats like Chinchou or Graveler, and with Cotton Spore it is able to act as a bit speed control, while Thunder Wave (which is a stupid move) could be an option over it, Cotton Spore is also capable of slowing down threats such as Piloswine and the aforementioned Chinchou, which would otherwise absorb the T-Wave and fire off powerful STABs. Overall Flaaffy isn't a quite a terrible option for an Electric type at first glance, and with proper team could function rather well as a wallbreaker.


    Anyways, I feel I've been rambling for a bit too long, and probably have some grammatical errors to fix tomorrow if there are some. Just wanted to get a few things off my chest.

    [​IMG]
  3. Akir

    Akir What's the Mystery Flavor?
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    564
    One of the main things that I always liked about Gen4 in general is the lead metagame. It always fascinated me how the leads would play off one another, and why one team would choose one lead over the next and why they would use that lead at all. So with Gen4 PU, of course I would be excited about the leads alone to make a long post about it!

    So throughout this post, I am going to put the leads into 4 groups: Suicide Leads, Bulky Leads, Scout Leads, and Antileads. I will also be talking about their "good" and "bad" matchups against other leads on the list...this is determined by how "well" the lead is able to perform its primary role against the opposing lead in most situations. Also, not all leads are here...only the best/most popular ones as of writing this.

    • Suicide Leads - Suicide lead's main purpose is to push an early advantage in the game, cause as much damage as they can, and then efficiently faint so the rest of the team can pick up the momentum and continue pushing the offensive. Suicide leads are not particularly popular in Gen4 PU at the moment due to the current trends favoring more defensive synergy and support options, so having all 6 teammates helping one another is preferred, but even so these leads are extremely effective in what they do.
    glalie.png
    Glalie has been the benchmark lead for quite some time now, and is still in my opinion the best dedicated lead in the tier. With good bulk, Inner Focus, and a Focus Sash, Glalie is able to reliably get at least 1 layer of Spikes out per match. In a metagame with extremely limited hazard removal, even 1 layer of Spikes is a strong advantage that puts a lot of pressure on the opponent. Glalie also has other options to cause trouble such a Taunt and Explosion, so along with always getting that 1 layer of Spikes up Glalie is able to cause a lot more pressure. Only Taunt leads can stop Glalie from getting Spikes up, and even then those leads usually risk taking a strong hit in retaliation. All other leads are measured by how well they deal with Glalie, so ironically Glalie can sometimes underperform due to every lead being geared to beat it.

    Primary role: Set Spikes
    Good matchup: Onix, Poliwrath, Machoke, Electabuzz, Purugly, Lopunny
    Bad matchup: Monferno, Armaldo, Sneasel
    Set (open)

    Glalie @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Spikes
    - Taunt / Earthquake / Ice Shard
    - Ice Beam
    - Explosion

    monferno.png
    Monferno is the most popular Stealth Rock and Taunt lead, and for good reason. Excellent attacking options alongside the always-handy Stealth Rock would make any lead strong in this metagame, but the addition of Taunt lets Monferno be a strong hazard lead that also shuts down other hazard leads. Monferno also boasts a wide variety of attack options and even includes the Focus Sash + Endeavor + Priority combo for a cheap KO. A team with Monferno can always rely on its lead being highly versatile in just how many options it boasts at Turn 1 for pushing an early advantage. The main things keeping Monferno down is Monferno's fairly weak damage output and how even though Monferno has a lot of options for the earlygame it usually can only choose 1 before leaving.

    Primary role: Taunt and set Stealth Rock
    Good matchup: Glalie, Onix, Sneasel, Machoke
    Bad matchup: Poliwrath, Armaldo, Electabuzz, Purugly, Lopunny
    Set (open)

    Monferno @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Fire Blast / Overheat / Mach Punch
    - Endeavor / Close Combat

    onix.png
    For a brief moment, Onix was the most dreaded lead in the entire metagame...because when you saw it, you knew that you were facing a sun team. Onix has a lot of great options as a lead, such as the Stealth Rock and Taunt option that Monferno has, but also can set up Sunny Day and Explode out of the way for the Sun to begin. In terms of setting up Sunny Day, Onix is extremely reliable in its role and all of its other options are just great bonuses to have if you can spare the turn to use them. However, Onix fell in popularity right with Sun, as beyond setting up the Sun Onix can struggle can do much else. The Explosion is also hilariously weak at times.

    Primary role: Set up Sunny Day
    Good matchup: Poliwrath, Armaldo, Machoke, Purugly
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Monferno, Electabuzz, Sneasel, Lopunny
    Set (open)

    Onix @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sunny Day
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt / Stone Edge
    - Explosion


    • Bulky Leads - These leads are not particularly meant to be dedicated leads, but are instead meant to be used throughout the match. As such, these leads usually boast a lot of bulk or support options that make them well-suited for the lead metagame...even though they are not meant to be leads themselves. Bulky Leads are very popular in Gen4 at the moment due to how much emphasis is placed on defensive play, so it is beneficial to have a lead that can be utilized throughout the match.
    poliwrath.png
    At the time of writing this, Poliwrath is the most popular lead in Gen4 PU. Poliwrath's fantastic splashability on to every single team imaginable makes Poliwrath a staple in every single team archetype. With good bulk, a great ability in Water Absorb, great coverage, and priority, Poliwrath is a tour de force in the metagame that can last throughout a match and can act as a great compromise for bulkier teams that need a solid lead. Poliwrath is also efficient at being a lead, bringing enough bulk to take the blows necessary and having enough of an offensive kit to keep the pressure on the opponent. The main downside of Lead Poliwrath is how it can sometimes struggle to stop opposing leads adequately. Poliwrath can restrict Glalie to 1 layer of Spikes, but Glalie still gets out the Spikes.

    Primary role: Remain healthy and KO the opposing lead
    Good matchup: Monferno, Armaldo, Sneasel, Purugly, Lopunny
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Onix, Machoke, Electabuzz
    Set (open)

    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Surf / Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Focus Blast
    - Vacuum Wave

    There is no singular set for Poliwrath, and assuming that there is can be dangerous. The set provided is only the most popular, and even then speedcreep is common.

    armaldo.png
    While not a popular lead, Armaldo has many strengths that make it a valued lead. A large amount of natural bulk mixed in with good offensive presence and support options means that Armaldo can actually do a decent amount of damage as a lead. Armaldo can set up Stealth Rock and at the same time spin away the opponent's hazards with Rapid Spin. Armaldo can also achieve the ever-coveted task of eliminating Suicide Leads in a single turn with Rock Blast. The main thing that Armaldo brings to the table is its ability to set hazards early and at the same time deny your opponent theirs, and with Armaldo's bulk and power it can sometimes prove difficult to deny. The main things holding Armaldo back is the slow speed, and how a lot of other leads can take advantage of that and Armaldo's mixed bag of a typing. The lack of recovery outside of Leftovers and the rare Rest also means that Armaldo might not last as long as other Bulky Leads like Poliwrath.

    Primary role: Remain healthy and control entry hazards
    Good matchup: Glalie, Monferno, Sneasel, Purugly, Lopunny, Electabuzz
    Bad matchup: Onix, Poliwrath, Machoke
    Set (open)

    Armaldo @ Leftovers
    Ability: Battle Armor
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake / Toxic / X-Scissor / Rest

    or

    Armaldo @ Leftovers
    Ability: Battle Armor
    EVs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 172 Def / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Rock Blast
    - Earthquake / Toxic / X-Scissor / Rest

    First one is for maximum bulk for long-term success, while the second one grabs the KO on Sneasel if they don't have a Focus Sash.


    Part 2 is down below!
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  4. Akir

    Akir What's the Mystery Flavor?
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    564
    Part 2!

    • Scout Leads - These leads have their main focus being seeing as much of the opponent's team as they can, through forcing out the opposing lead via attacking, Taunt, Encore, or any other option, and then quickly switching out (usually with U-turn or BP). That's how they get their name: they are meant to scout the opponent as much as they can while hopefully beating out the opposing lead while they are at it. Scout leads have been in decline in popularity lately in favor of bulkier leads, but they are still very effective in what they do and how they can help the team later in the match as well.
    purugly.png
    Purugly is the stereotypical Scout Lead in Gen4. Access to Fake Out, Taunt, U-Turn, and several lure possibilities, Purugly is capable on beating plenty of other leads and efficiently scouting out and possibly beating other parts of the opponent's team with its great speed and toolkit. In fact, Purugly is the second fastest mon in the unboosted tier, so Purugly can act as a lead and a revenge killer. Overall, Purugly is a great lead for any offensive team to have as it has the tendency to force the opponent to react to it. The main downside to Purugly is that some leads aren't scared of it, and thusly won't necessarily switch out.

    Primary role: Beat/force the opposing lead out and scout the opponent's team
    Good matchup: Monferno, Electabuzz, Machoke, Sneasel, Lopunny
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Onix, Poliwrath, Armaldo
    Set (open)

    Purugly @ Life Orb
    Ability: Thick Fat
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Frustration
    - Taunt / Shadow Claw / Sucker Punch / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Water
    - U-turn

    lopunny.png
    Lopunny has been gaining some popularity with the rise of Drifblim, but it has always been a good Scout Lead. Lopunny's kit is very similar to Purugly's in the sense that they both have Fake Out and switch priority, but what sets Lopunny apart is access to the brutal 3-7 turn Encore and Fighting coverage. The Encore is better than Taunt for the purpose of scouting, as Encore in this generation absolutely forces a switch and that is easy to bank on with a Baton Pass or a strong attack. The main things keeping Lopunny down is how similar it is to Purugly and the fact that base 105 speed means that Lopunny sits directly on a spedcrept benchmark speed instead of surpassing it.

    Primary role: Shut down the opposing lead and scout the opponent
    Good matchup: Monferno, Onix, Electabuzz
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Poliwrath, Armaldo, Machoke, Sneasel, Purugly
    Set (open)

    Lopunny @ Life Orb
    Ability: Cute Charm
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out / Jump Kick
    - Frustration
    - Encore / Jump Kick
    - Baton Pass


    • Antileads - Antileads have a singular purpose: beat other leads and cause as much havoc as possible. They are very straightforward in their task, and tend to exploit current metagame trends to gain as much of an advantage at Turn 1 as possible. Antileads are, and always will be, fairly popular in Gen4...but I do expect them to become more popular in the near future.
    machoke.png
    Easily the most hated lead in the metagame, Machoke is the staple antilead choice for most offensive teams. Access to Dynamicpunch means that Machoke has a powerful STAB option that also has a 100% chance to confuse, so anything that lives is forced to take the coinflip or switch out. Machoke can then follow up with the Bullet Punch to finish off whoever decides to stay in, and Machoke even has access to Gen4 Payback, which is unique in the fact that a switch is considered a move by Payback and therefore gives it the full 100 BP. Machoke is an antilead that is hard to switch into and harder to stay in on, and is always a struggle to deal with. The lack of Eviolite and Knock Off hurts Machoke heavily however, as many mons can simply outspeed and OHKO Machoke in Gen4, and Machoke can sometimes fail to stop some leads from doing their jobs regardless.

    Primary role: KO the opposing lead and weaken/KO the next mon in as well
    Good matchup: Poliwrath, Armaldo, Lopunny, Electabuzz, Sneasel
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Monferno, Onix, Purugly
    Set (open)

    Machoke @ Lum Berry
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch / Protect
    - Bullet Punch

    or

    Machoke @ Leftovers
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch / Protect
    - Bullet Punch

    The first set has enough speed to outspeed Rhydon and Poliwraths who only speedcreep to 197 + some. The second set forgoes outspeeding anything in favor of general bulk and more power.

    electabuzz.png
    Although Plans will tell you different, Electabuzz did not catch much interest until very recently. However, the surge of Poliwrath leads has created an atmosphere where Electabuzz can truly shine as an antilead. Boasting plenty of power and great speed, Electabuzz can at minimum 2HKO every single other lead in the metagame and OHKO a lot of key choices. Electabuzz also has a huge variety of coverage options, such as Low Kick and Ice Punch, to cover the bases and make sure that it can hit just about anything that wants to switch in for crippling damage. The main downsides of Electabuzz is that a 2HKO just doesn't cut it against some threats, and Electabuzz sits directly on the base 105 Speed benchmark instead of speedcreeping it. Although it is somewhat satisfying watching Static activate on a Fake Out...

    Primary role: KO the opposing lead and punish switch-ins
    Good matchup: Monferno, Onix, Poliwrath
    Bad matchup: Glalie, Purugly, Lopunny, Armaldo, Machoke, Sneasel
    Set (open)

    Electabuzz @ Life Orb / Magnet
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Low Kick
    - Ice Punch / Toxic / Protect

    sneasel-f.png
    Last but certainly not least is Sneasel, the underdog of the Antileads. Sneasel specializes in 1 thing that no other popular lead does: Pursuit Trapping to guarantee the KO on any weakened enemy lead. Sneasel can do much more than just Pursuit too, as it is the fastest unboosted mon in the tier and has access to both Fake Out and Taunt. The end result is an antilead that can ruin a lead completely for the opponent by shutting them down entirely. The drawbacks of Sneasel are fairly numerous, as it is not particularly strong and the typing does no favors for it defensively. It also doesn't help that Sneasel's biggest hard counter, Poliwrath, is also the most popular lead at the moment.

    Primary role: Stop and KO the opposing lead
    Good matchup: Glalie, Onix, Lopunny, Electabuzz
    Bad matchup: Monferno, Poliwrath, Armaldo, Purugly, Machoke
    Set (open)

    Sneasel @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Ice Punch
    - Pursuit
    - Low Kick / Taunt / U-Turn


    • Why Does This Matter?
    To be frank, playing the Gen4 lead metagame as you would the Gen5-7 metagame really misses out on a lot of opportunity for your team. Both you and your opponent are going in blind, so it makes sense to pick a lead beforehand that best benefits your team. Yes Machoke is a good Antilead, but does your team want an Antilead like Machoke? What about Electabuzz, or Purugly? What helps your team the most? On top of that, what leads do you absolutely want to stop? If you are running a more defensive team, then picking a lead that stops the Suicide Leads (especially Glalie) is paramount. Picking your lead is one of the most important aspects of Gen4 PU teambuilding, to the point where there is a metagame specifically around the leads themselves. Next time you are building, think about what you are trying to accomplish with your lead, and get as much as you can from it!
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  5. The Jungle Fox

    The Jungle Fox

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    60
    Gen 3 Viability Rankings nom!

    Sunflora from A+ => S
    [​IMG]

    Sunflora is a very threatening mon in ADV PU. This tier lacks heavily in grass resists, which Sunflora appreciates; the few ones are actually beaten by Sunflora, such as Koffing or Tropius for example. Even special walls aren't safe from getting broken by Sunflora from SunnyBeam variants or SubGrowth. Even its SpDef set is great to check special threats like Ground-, Electric- and Water-types, while not being easily overwhelmed or set up on due Leech Seed plus Toxic and decent offensive presence. Sunflora's main downside lies on its speed, which means it can be easily revenge killed by the likes of CB Furret, although it can play around revenge killers with Sunny Day and Substitute sets. It's really a low risk high-reward mon that should be S ranked just due the sheer versatility, power and ability to threaten underprepared teams.

    Houndour and Charmeleon to swap places.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Houndour to A-, Charmelon to B+

    I just checked the difference these guys have. The main niche Charmeleon has over Houndoor is its higher speed tier, which doesn't let it outspeed much but Seaking, Chinchou, Dragonair, Mightyena, Kingler, a bunch of unviable or very niche mons and the speed tie with Gastly and opposing Charmeleon. However, considering most of those don't run a speed-boosting nature, the only relevant ones are Charmeleon, Gastly and Kingler. But that's not the main point. Houndour's Dark typing give it more offensive coverage allowing it to pressure things Charmeleon is either walled by or need to pack a coverage move to do something against, such as offensive Chinchou. Pursuit is also a very good move since it traps and kills Ghost- and Psychic-types which can pave the way for a Furret or a Machoke, for exaple. Houndour's Dark typing also brings some defensive utility to the table, being able to check Ghost- and Psychic-types which Charmeleon can only dream of. Overall, I feel Houndour is more consistent and way more powerful than Charmeleon and I believe they should switch ranks.
  6. ShuckleDeath

    ShuckleDeath

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2015
    Messages:
    290
    Sunflora ---> Disagree
    I feel Sunfloras speed really holds it back from being S Rank as it is forced to run Timid with it's sunnyday sets or be out speed by base 95s. It also lacks strong STAB outside of Solarbeam. It is easily revenged killed and it has mediocre defense. Theres a plethora of Grass Resists as well Koffing, Venomoth, and Ivysaur for example. Koffing beats Sunflora with Haze and pain Split as well so it isn't always going to beat it 1v1. i just feel it has hinderances that should keep it from being s Rank.

    Houndour ---> Agree
    Best pursuit user in the tier and great coverage to boot. It's in a rough speed tier and isn't meant for every team but when used for it's niche it is very effective. Being Trapped by Diglett hurts but being able to trap Duskull and Abra or Gastly lacking Hidden Power Water plays a huge role on certain teams.

    Now My own Noms ^-^

    [​IMG]---> unrank, replace with Ivysaur
    Ivysaur does everything Gloom does only has much better speed, which actually allows it to easily creep max attack adamant Machoke letting it beat Choice Band and Bulk Up sets much easier with Charm.

    [​IMG]---> C
    Honestly Shuckle is better than everything else in C- Rank, and is the tiers one true GSI to Furret. Still Takes wish support to check things through out the match but is just better than the initial C- Rank we put it in.

    Time for some sick cores.

    [​IMG] + [​IMG] + [​IMG]

    Checking a great portion of the tier and supporting each other very well I wouldn't doubt if this is the best defensive core the tier has to offer, I use it all the time with great success. Shuckle is a great blanket check to physical attackers and some choice special attackers alike, being the best switch into Furret and Doduo. Lickitung checks special attackers for Shuckle While providing wish support for it as well, it also is the best cleric in the tier mostly being used for the common poison status that is used to break most defensive cores which adds many many turns of longevity to both Shuckle and Lombre. Lombre is a very important addition to this core, which is obviously why I included it. Basically it keeps Shuckle and Lickitung from being steamrolled by Wailord and Clamperl. It also aids the core with Leech Seed as you are free to use it on most Mos it comes in on and a lot of people wil go into a Mon to check Lombre, which more than likly Shuckle can easily switch in on and get free recovery from it. There are a few weeknesses leftover but you have options to work with, poison types and Bulk Up machoke being some more noticible ones so options like Diglett and Tropius work very well.

    Importable (open)

    Shuckle @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Toxic
    - Encore
    - Protect
    - Wrap

    Lombre @ Leftovers
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Leech Seed
    - Synthesis

    Lickitung @ Leftovers
    Ability: Oblivious
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Heal Bell
    - Seismic Toss


    [​IMG]/ [​IMG] + [​IMG]
    This core can be switched up of course but the premise is always the same, you use Houndour to trap Ghost-Types so your Normal and/or Fighting-Types can spam their STAB. Hounder with Hidden Power Water also lures in Rock-Types for Normal-Types which is very nice. Strong breakers like Furret also do well in getting things in range for Houndour as well.

    Importable (open)

    Furret @ Choice Band
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Quick Attack
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Punch / Brick Break

    Meditite @ Choice Band
    Ability: Pure Power
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - High Jump Kick
    - Hidden Power [Rock]
    - Shadow Ball
    - Baton Pass

    Houndour @ Black Glasses
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def / 30 SpA
    - Fire Blast
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit
    - Hidden Power [Water]

    (Water hits other Houndour)
  7. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    273
    Some Unique and Fun ADV PU Sets


    [​IMG]
    NMI Furret
    Sets (open)

    Standard NMI
    Furret @ Never-Melt Ice
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Shadow Ball
    - Ice Beam
    - Quick Attack/Brick Break

    Weather Lead NMI
    Furret @ Never-Melt Ice
    Ability: Run Away
    EVs: 200 Atk / 56 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Shadow Ball
    - Ice Beam
    - Sunny Day/Rain Dance

    This Furret set takes advantage of the fact that Tropius and Graveler are the 2 best switch-ins to Choice Band Furret right now. By adding 56 EVs into Sp. Atk and adding the Never Melt Ice item, Furret can 2HKO Standard Tropius and all variants of Graveler as they switch in. The remaining 200 EVs go into Attack so Furret can start to Double Edge as many thing as it can before it dies.
    [​IMG]
    Clamp Stamp
    Set (open)

    Clamperl @ DeepSeaScale
    Ability: Shell Armor
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Barrier
    - Rest
    - Clamp
    - Toxic


    Clamperl gives Stall teams a chance to trap and Toxic-stall foes. This opens up opportunities for Bulky setup sweepers like Tropius and Machoke to clean late game. Usually, if Stall teams want a trapper, they choose Diglett, which doesn't support the rest of the team defensively aside from an Electric-Immunity. Clamperl in opposite fashion uses its high defensive stats, weakness to only 2 types, and inability to be critted to beat certain Pokemon in a 1v1 scenario.

    [​IMG]
    Baton Pass Beedrill
    Sets (open)

    Beedrill @ Salac Berry
    Ability: Swarm
    - Baton Pass
    - Endure
    - Swords Dance
    - Sludge Bomb

    Beedrill @ Leftovers
    Ability: Swarm
    - Agility
    - Swords Dance
    - Baton Pass
    - Sludge Bomb

    Beedrill @ Liechi Berry
    Ability: Swarm
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Agility
    - Endure
    - Baton Pass
    - Sludge Bomb

    No sir, Ledian is not the only Pokemon who can pass Agilitys and Sword Dances in ADV PU. While Ledian has more Overall Bulk and Speed, Beedrill has better HP and Attack stat, making it a threat both before and after it Baton Passes into another Pokemon. Beedrill also doesn't have a weakness to the very common Electric and Ice-types like Ledian. If you can Baton Pass +2 +2 into something like Piloswine, Furret, or Machoke, your opponent may as well click the forfeit button.
    [​IMG]
    Grass Whistle Sunflora

    Set (open)

    Sunflora @ Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
    - Grass Whistle
    - Growth
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    This set is similar to Offensive Growth Sunflora, except you click GrassWhistle instead of Sub. Albeit more risky due to that shaky 55% accuracy, Sunflora has a chance to acquire multiple Growth boosts instead of just one.

    [​IMG]
    Hypnosis Ponyta
    Set (open)

    Ponyta @ Charcoal
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Double-Edge
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Hypnosis

    Another Offensive Pokemon that has an underutilized Sleep-inducing move. It plays similarly to Sunny Day Ponyta, just with Hypnosis, which can give it a chance against Pokemon it has a type disadvantage with or a change to switch into something more suitable.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  8. Slowbroth

    Slowbroth

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    161
    ADV PU VR Changes:

    Houndour B+ to A-
    Charmeleon A- to B+
    Ivysaur to B-, Gloom Unranked (discussed below)
    Shuckle to C- to C

    Tropius A to A+
    Diglett A- to A

    Discussion Topics:
    Sunflora A+ to S
    Lombre B+ to A-
    Lickitung B+ to A-

    Houndour and Charmeleon switched places, mainly due to what was outlined in Jungle Fox's post. Even though Charmeleon's higher speed is useful, it still doesnt outspeed anything notable without still dying to Furret and Seadra; plus Houndour's typing, utility and still decent power is much more relevant in the meta right now. Houndour's Pursuit is especially important with a lot of defensive things running around, and being able to trap things is really nice. Houndour could probably run Modest atm and get away with it, due to the meta being so relatively slow. Ivysaur was swapped out with Gloom due to the fact that it checks Machoke much better due to its better speed meaning it requires less EVs to creep to 190 speed. A nice tech that a few have found is Charm Ivysaur, which effectively prevents Machoke from setting up Bulk Ups on it. Additionally, Gloom cannot run the same set with Charm and Leech Seed, because the two are incompatible, evidently. Shuckle has been moved to C because, as ShuckleDeath said, it is pretty much a physically defensive monster and still the best GSI to Furret and other physical mons not named Machoke.

    I'd like more discussion on Sunflora to S because I'm on the fence; I think it's a really nice meta mon and an easy splash on to teams that immediately checks Minun, Wailord, Graveler, etc. It's unpredictable but effective at the same time; however, the speed is still somewhat of an issue, even though it's not the biggest issue in the world. Lombre also deserves some mention because it's really reliable on balance teams, being a blanket special wall. Same deal with Lickitung, really. I'd like to hear others thoughts on whether these should move up or not.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
  9. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Sunflora A+ to S - Disagree
    [​IMG]
    Sunflora is an extremely powerful, fairly splashable mon that is arguably one of the best sweepers in the entire metagame thanks to Chlorophyll and stab Solar Beam. However, after comparing it to the other 2 S rank mons, Furret and Machoke, I personally feel that Sunflora just doesn't hold up to the S ranking. Its low speed, which isn't exactly the end of the world, is a huge problem for it on every set except Sunny Day sweeper. The Sunny Day sweeper set, might I add, is very good but is simply walled by some of the good fires of the tier which can either threaten it out thanks to sun boosted STAB, use it as setup fodder in the case of mons like Combusken, or downright KO'd and remove it from the match. Finally, it tends to struggle with mons like Tropius and Dragonair without hp ice, but struggles with mons like Venomoth, Ariados, and Volbeat with it, so its constantly struggling with which Hidden Power to choose, making Sunflora not as versatile as one would hope. Long post short, Sunflora is a great A+ mon, but the reasons it shouldn't be S rank include:
    - Low speed which is problematic except for Sunny Day sweeper
    - Fodder for Fire types
    - Coverage consists of Hidden Power


    Lombre B+ to A- - Agree
    [​IMG]
    Lombre is a great blanket check to common waters in the tier, and can even be a threatening water itself thanks to a wide set of options, a great ability in Swift Swim, and the godly Grass Water typing. It handles a lot of high tier threats like Wailord, Seadra, Clamperl, and Chinchou. When on a rain team, its low special attack is easily patched up thanks to a rain boost to its STAB 120 base power Hydro Pumps as well as strong coverage in Giga Drain and Ice Beam. Overall worth a slot in A-.
    Highlights:
    - Great special bulk and typing allow it to wall the plethora of waters in the tier.
    - Great offensive typing and Swift Swim allows it to function offensively, both alone and on rain teams.
    - Strong coverage as well as great utility options allow for Lombre to be unpredictable at times.


    Lickitung B+ to A- - Agree
    [​IMG]
    Lickitung finds itself as the most desired special tank in the tier for a variety of reasons, the main one being its big wishes and great bulk. It doesn't hurt to have great moves like Seismic Toss and Heal Bell either. Its Normal typing allows it to blanket check many special attackers in the tier as well. Not much to say, its just the Audino of gen 3 and it does it really well.
    Highlights:
    - Great special bulk and good utility options to boot
    - Good health stat for passing large wishes

    And now a suggestion of my own:

    Delibird from Unranked to C
    [​IMG]
    reasoning (open)
    Delibird, which has found itself the laughing stock of competitive play for many years, has a decent niche in ADV PU as the flying type with the highest attack in the tier thanks to Hustle. At a decent speed of 75, it can actually outspeed quite a bit. Additionally, it has access to STAB Ice Beam, which is extremely useful as the main switchin for flyings is Graveler which is 2hko'd with max HP investment. However, Delibird has a huge flaw in the fact that its movepool is actually fairly scarce. Its best coverage options are Water Pulse, Focus Punch, and Hidden Power, meaning what does resist it will usually resist it hard. Additionally, its weaker stab options make Delibird struggle for viability over its Normal counterpart Doduo. Additionally, its frailer than Yanma, with only 45/45/45 bulk, meaning it'll die to just about any form of priority. Despite this, Delibird can carve a great niche in the metagame thanks to its awesome offensive typing and great mixed stats.
    Tl;Dr (open)
    Pros:
    - Ice Flying typing allows for great mixed potential
    - Highest attack of any Flying type in the tier thanks to Hustle
    - Decent speed tier

    Cons:
    - Low base power flying STAB
    - Non Existent coverage outside of Water Pulse, Focus Punch, and Hidden Power
    - Low 45/45/45 bulk

    A cool set for Delibird could be:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Delibird @ Never-Melt Ice
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Aerial Ace
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Ground] / Focus Punch / Substitute
    - Substitute / Toxic / Quick Attack / Icy Wind
    Something to note is that it does get access to Rapid Spin and is immune to spikes, so Delibird is a decent option for that as well (Suggested by Boyeraj17)
    calcs (open)
    4 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tropius: 360-424 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    4 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Graveler: 297-350 (94.5 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sunflora: 306-360 (86.4 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chinchou: 309-364 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    4 SpA Never-Melt Ice Delibird Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Koffing: 148-175 (52.1 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Hustle Delibird Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lombre: 328-386 (101.2 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    You could also slap a CB on it like this with very similar results:
    Delibird @ Choice Band
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Lonely Nature
    - Aerial Ace
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden power [Ground]
    - Quick Attack
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    Good J, LordST, Aaronboyer and 3 others like this.
  10. therealslap

    therealslap

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Lombre from B+ to A- : Agree
    [​IMG]

    Lombre's typing and stats allow it to check many of the relevant mons in the meta rn. It checks all Water-Types besides maybe Tentacool, but I haven't seen that yet, all Electric-Types and Gastly. It can also 1v1 Houndour and Abra since both only 3HKO. Synthesis and Leech Seed provide reliable recovery as well and with proper support like Heal Bell and mons that deal with physical mons Lombre is hard to take down.
    W/o support Toxic can be annoying for Lombre.
    Overall a very good special wall, that can deal with many prominent threats.

    Lickitung from B+ to A-: Agree
    [​IMG]

    Solar Flar said pretty much everything. Only thing i'd like to add is the option of Body Slam, since it 1HKOes Abra, which can avoid a 2hko from Seismic Toss with 40 HP evs; also provides some kind of paralysis support for the team.
    s/o to the guy, who used body slam licki vs me in a room tour, can't remember the name rn.

    Not sure about Sunflora because i have only used it in a sample team. But i'd disagree, i feel like its speed is a major flaw and it's not that great in comparison to the other S-Rank mons. Also there are mons like Grimer, Yanma and Fire-Types, which can deal with it. Tropius and a mon i'll talk about later can be annoying as well.

    My own suggestions:

    Porygon from Unranked to maybe C- or C (not sure, what rank but it should not be unranked)
    [​IMG]
    Porygon's main trait is its ability Trace, which lets it trace Volt Absorb, Flash Fire, Chlorophyll, Swift Swim and most importantly Arena Trap. By Trapping Diglett it can support several ground-weak mons, like Rock-Types, which are used as Furret checks, and Fire-Types. Also its movepool isn't that bad either, with options such as Recover for well recovery, Toxic or Thunder Wave as a support option, Rain Dance or Sunny Day as a weather setter and has also access to BoltBeam.

    The spread i'm using trys to avoid a 2HKO from CB Diglett and to deal with most Sp. Attackers.
    set (open)

    Porygon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Trace
    EVs: 208 HP / 144 Def / 156 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic / Thunder Wave / Sunny Day / Rain Dance
    - Recover
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt

    calcs (open)

    252 Atk Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 144+ Def Porygon: 145-171 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Twisted Spoon Abra Psychic vs. 208 HP / 156 SpD Porygon: 146-172 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (2HKOes back with Tbolt/Ice beam or can Twave it)
    252 SpA Houndour Fire Blast vs. 208 HP / 156 SpD Porygon: 150-177 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (if not traced)
    252 SpA Black Glasses Houndour Crunch vs. 208 HP / 156 SpD Porygon: 109-129 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- 28.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Skiploom from Unranked to C+
    [​IMG]

    You may think Skiploom's outclassed by Tropius, which is incredibly bulky, also has SD and even has EQ.
    Even though Skiploom has 2 things going for it and these are Sleep Powder and its speed. Sleep Powder allows it to neutralize a threat or switch-in, e.g. Tropius or Lairon. After that, it can proceed to click SD, Sub or Leech Seed, depending on the situation. With its base speed being 80 it outspeeds a huge chunk of the meta, it also is the fastest Chlorophyll user and therefore can be used as a check to it.

    This spread allows Loom to outspeed Dragonair and minimizes the risk of Loom getting 2HKOed by Tbolt Gastly. There's probably a better one.
    set (open)

    Skiploom @ Liechi Berry / Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 80 SpD / 176 Spe or 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance / Leech Seed
    - Sleep Powder
    - Substitute
    - Hidden Power [Flying]


    edit: added another spread for leftovers leech seed loom, should hit leftover numbers
    edit2: wrong nature on pory, impish -> bold lol
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  11. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    273
    Current Discussion
    [​IMG]
    Lickitung B+ --> A- Agree

    Solar Flare hit the nail right on the head. Defense and Stall are becoming quite popular playstyles right now in ADV PU, and you can try to disprove me if you think I'm wrong, but you CANNOT build a successful Stall-Team without Lickitung. Balance Offensive teams also appreciate the Wish Support this thing gives. You can even run a Physically Defensive Lickitung if you so choose. Overall, Lickitung is the crux to many teambuilds due to its immense bulk and supportive capabilities.

    [​IMG]
    Lombre B+ --> A- On The Fence

    Lombre is really good at what it does, no doubt. For its Defensive set, being able to check the plethora of Water-Types in the tier along with reliable recovery is awesome, but it also has to fight out the Water-Type teamslot with Clamperl, who has superior Special Defense. Offensively, it fights against Clamperl, Wailord, and Seadra for the Water-Type spot and only really distinguishes itself with access to Swift Swim, making it an extremely potent Rain Sweeper.

    I'd personally like to see it only switch places with Charmeleon, but it doesn't bother me any if it moves up to A-.

    [​IMG]
    Sunflora A+ --> S Disagree

    Sunflora has 2 Offensive moves: STAB and and HP Fire/Ice. It cannot touch Fire-Types whatsoever. Unfortunately, STAB and your choice of Hidden Power is all Sunflora gets for Special-Attacking coverage. Period. Sunflora also has an extremely underwhelming Base 30 Speed stat along with 5 weaknesses. Sunflora is still unanimously the best Special-Attacking Grass-Type in the tier. However, putting Sunflora in S would be an exaggeration as a Pokemon that would supposed be "defining the meta."

    Personal Nominations (Clearing Out the Bottom Ranks)
    In my humble opinion, the C and D Ranks are cluttered with Pokemon that are completely undeserving of a ranking at all. These are just some of the ones that most stand out to me to become Unranked.

    [​IMG]
    Wigglytuff C- --> D/Unranked

    As a Wish-Passer, its outclassed by Lickitung. As a Normal-Type Attacker its outclassed by Furret.

    [​IMG]
    Luvdisc D --> Unranked

    While it may have the 2nd highest Speed stat in the tier, all of its other stats are absolute garbage. It's main niche is to "sweep" under Rain. Unfortunately unlike other Rain Sweepers like Lombre, Seaking, and Horsea, Luvdisc doesn't get Hydro Pump until the 5th Generation. Even a Rain Lead set is 100% outclassed by Voltorb. There is just nothing to love about Luvdisc.

    [​IMG]
    Aipom C- --> Unranked

    CB set completely and utterly outclassed by Furret. Agility Baton Pass outclassed by Minun.

    Other Personal Nominations
    [​IMG]

    Pineco B --> B+

    Pineco is currently one of the best leads in ADV PU and is without a shadow of a doubt the best Spiker in the tier. Not only this, but Pineco is also one of the best Rapid Spinners in the tier, with its decent Mono-Bug typing and a superb base 90 defense stat. When things look bleak, Pineco explodes and continues to keep the momentum to your side. Overall, Pineco is currently way better than all of the rest of the B Ranked Pokemon, warranting a raise to B+.
  12. Slowbroth

    Slowbroth

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2016
    Messages:
    161
    ADV PU VR Update

    Lickitung B+ to A-
    Lombre B+ to A-
    Porygon Unranked to D

    Wigglytuff C- to Unranked
    Luvdisc D to Unranked

    - not convinced on Delibird or Skiploom yet, need some quality replays to help your argument

    So the consensus was that both Lickitung and Lombre have been consistent defensive Pokemon in the tier and their rise to A- was warranted due to how much teams needed good special walls that checked waters / electrics. Porygon wasn't put in C, and is going in D for now, because as a defensive normal type that has recovery, it's severely outclassed by Togetic and Lickitung, and only has Trace to help out its niche. I could see it going higher eventually though. I actually agreed with clearing out the bottom ranks, it's something that definitely needs to be tidied up since a lot of the mons are barely viable / see usage. So the unranking of Wigglytuff and Luvdisc (sorry Chris) was definitely warranted. I could see other mons currently that probably deserve D right now but w/e.

    With the rise of Licky and Lombre though, the B+ rank is looking rather empty so we might need to change that area a bit as well.

    Discussion Points:

    Pineco B to B+
    Aipom C- to Unranked (also with respect to Furret)
    Piloswine A to A-

    Bringing up Pineco and Aipom is quite interesting; since more defensive teams have seen usage, Spikes usage also has gone up a little bit. Pineco is a solid Spiker that sets up hazards on common passive Pokemon like Lickitung and Duskull. Spikes in general is something that can push one team to have the upper edge vs another team. Aipom is interesting because it'd actually be the best alternative to Furret if Furret were to leave the tier. As of right now, Aipom deservedly sees no usage because of Furret, but I wanted to take the opportunity and ask if Furret really is ban worthy, cuz I know some people do have a problem with it (or is the problem Diglett / Machoke?). Another mon I'd like discussion on is Piloswine, a mon that doesnt see a lot of usage anymore because of Graveler, and I just don't think it's doing that good right now. Grass, Water, Fighting and Fires are everywhere, which really prevents Piloswine from really shining. Discuss on.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  13. Many

    Many

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    1,003
    I'm really enjoying ADV PU right now, here are some things I want to discuss:

    Pelipper:

    This mon is good. We all know how offensive water-types are good in this tier, and Pelipper is no exception. It faces competition from Wailord and Seadra, but is able to use its typing to its advantage. The grass neutrality is super useful for dealing with the likes of Sunflora, and being immune to Earthquake for Piloswine and resisting Dynamic Punch can come in handy. An Agility set can make a nice bulky cleaner with moves of Agility/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam with a Mystic Water or Petaya Berry. I honestly think it pulls this off just as well as Seadra, because its typing and bulk is so useful.

    Wigglytuff:
    252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickitung: 106-126 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- 71.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wigglytuff: 133-157 (27.4 - 32.4%) -- 62.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Is this really outclassed by Lickitung? It's physical bulk is a bit less, but it can pass much larger wishes. It also is able to hit harder with Body Slam if that ever comes into play, and Cute Charm is a more annoying ability than Own Tempo. Finally its useful coverage with Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and Fire Blast could potentially come in use, which Lickitung can't quite abuse.

    Parasect:

    Spore is really good in ADV, with Sleep guaranteed to last at least two turns and grass-types not being immune to sleep. Its typing may not be the best, but it can check some pretty common water, ground, and grass-type threats. It also hits pretty hard off of 95 attack Sludge Bomb and HP Bug, which is a difficult combo to switch into in this tier. Parasect does have some significant flaws, but honestly 100% sleep is just that good to justify a B+ ranking for it, at least.

    Horsea:

    Why is this ranked?

    Pineco

    Yeah I agree with moving this up. Bulky teams are getting more common, and what's the most skill-less way to break them? Set up spikes and watch them flounder. These things can get up multiple layers of spikes for free on Lickitung and whatever else people are using. It almost seems too easy. Might want to move up Omanyte too, not sure about Cacnea though.

    Dunsparce

    I'd like to see this higher. Really, the only obstacle standing in the way of Curse Rest-talk sets is Machoke. This is theorymon for now, but stack your team with Machoke checks and I'm sure this can become a dominant force....
  14. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    273
    Wigglytuff does not pass larger Wishes than Lickitung. In Generation 3, the Wish-Receiver receives 50% of their health regained regardless of who actually used Wish. Ice/Electric/Fire coverage is more commonly used by Pokémon like Dragonair.

    Horsea is ranked because unlike Seadra, Horsea gets Swift Swim, giving it a niche as a Rain Sweeper. It also surprisingly has the highest special attack of all Swift Swim Pokemon in ADV PU.

    All the rest of your nominations (Pelipper, Parasect, etc.) I agree with.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
    Charles A. Theist and Many like this.
  15. The Jungle Fox

    The Jungle Fox

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    60
    I feel like Sunflora's capabilies have been massively underrated. One of those is its sheer versatility. Sunflora's SunnyBeam set is not the only that exists, yet they beat most of the grass resists ShuckleDeath pointed out, Solar Beam clearly 2hkoing Koffing, even having a decent chance to OHKO at +1, while +1 sun-boosted HP Fire outright OHKOes. Venomoth is also OHKOed by sun-boosted HP Fire. I don't know what spread is ran on Ivysaur, but a max/max spread is 2hkoed by sun-boosted HP Fire (and its not able to do much back, except its own HP Fire which has a very tiny chance to 2hko). Defensive SubGrowth variants also use Ivysaur as set up fodder.

    Sunflora may be slow, but its also extremely splashable and fairly bulky on the special side. Its inability to outspeed base 95 under sun unless Timid was mentioned, but Modest doesn't really have a lot of drawbacks as Minun and Elekid both can't threaten it (in fact, Sunflora checks it), Diglett wouldn't like to find out its a Timid variant and get outsped and OHKOed, not to mention you can Substitute on the switch, and Yanma is a tad mediocre this meta. Also, that's considering HP Fire is always ran on sun, but HP Ice is still completely viable to nail Dragonairs thinking they can set up on you.

    About Sunflora being "simply walled" by fire types in the tier is completely untrue when Solar Beam cleanly 2hkoes all of them with Solar Beam except Charmeleon holding Leftovers, and it can always Sub to scout their next move (Combusken's Thunder Punch and Houndour's Pursuit both being unable to break its Subs) and proceed to attack.

    Again focusing on its speed, most of the non-Sunny Day sets are bulky so they can use a big portion of the tier (Electric-, Water- and Ground-types) as fodder to set up and wreck havoc. These sets such as Specially Defensive and Bulky SubGrowth also gives Sunflora utility through the match, being able to check threatening mons like Minun before it sets up. The fact that things have to scout for its Hidden Power's type also show how threatening it is, since if one's would-be counter doesn't predict well, it loses an important mon and you pave the way for another mon, such as wearing down Tropius for BU Machoke.

    The fact that it literally chooses it counters, its versatility (offensive Growth, bulky Growth, Sunny Day, Specially Defensive sets are all very viable), bulk (not overall, but its special bulk is nice to check things like Chinchou and Minun) and good offensive STAB push it to S rank in my opinion, since its clearly one of the most threatening mons in the tier.
  16. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Ayy more ADV PU suggestions. Time to give my "valuable" opinion. Also, I'm not doing the bulleted lists anymore, they take up a lot of space and effort :[
    Pineco B to B+ - Agree
    [​IMG]
    Pineco is a great mon and sample on many stall teams thanks to spikes pressuring mons that are meant to counter stall thanks to the constant switchin damage. Additionally, it has nice bulk and can guarantee 1 layer of spikes against even Choice Band Furret's DEdge, giving it a nice niche on not just Stall teams, but many bulky offense or balance teams.

    Aipom C- to Unranked - Disagree
    [​IMG]
    Aipom, while incredibly unpopular and underused, still isn't without its niches. Its wide support movepool as well as decent 70 attack and the godly combination of DEdge SBall and Brick Break allows for Aipom to be a decently threatening attacker. Of course, its main issues are that 2 of its viable sets, being Choice Band and Agilipass, are completely outclassed by Furret and Ledian/Beedrill/Ariados respectively. However, this being said, Aipom still has its most versatile set at the moment, utility attacker, to save its viability. Here's an example of the set:

    Aipom @ Silk Scarf / Leftovers / Stat Boosting Berry
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge / Frustration
    - Shadow Ball / Substitute
    - Brick Break / Focus Punch
    - Screech / Baton Pass / Thunder Wave

    Aipom wielding this set suddenly becomes a versatile and threatening attacker, being able to punish switches with substitute, thunder wave, or screech as well as gaining momentum with Baton Pass. Additionally, Sub Baton Pass with a boosting berry specifically can make Aipom a scary sweeper or allow it to pass its boosts to another attacker like Yanma, Machoke, Seviper, and other mons that are in need of a small boost in speed, attack, or special attack to set them over the edge. While this isn't a fantastic set, this is one of the main reasons to use Aipom and is the reason its in C-, not the before mentioned Choice Band and agilipass sets.

    Piloswine A to A- - Disagree
    [​IMG]
    Piloswine offers something that Diglett and Graveler don't have: Ice stab. Ice stab that allows Piloswine to, without the need of stab rock slide and a choice band, 2HKO Tropius, a mon quickly growing in popularity and overall viability thanks to its SD set and its underrated leech seed set. Additionally, its great bulk makes it a great option for many teams, and despite how common fire types like Houndour are getting, Piloswine keep finding clever sets that set it apart from other grounds in the tier (who, might I add, are also weak to fires due to the almost always there grass/water coverage). Along with standard tank with Ice Beam, Piloswine has a mixed choice band wallbreaker set to rip through bulkier teams with relative ease thanks again to Ground+Ice coverage. Icy Wind+3 attacks also finds itself as a viable set, as after pressuring out the many mons Piloswine already threatens with its 100 attack, Piloswine then outspeeds every mon in the tier after an Icy wind, allowing for more pressure and making Piloswine one of the harder mons to swap in to. With these 3 sets in mind, Piloswine definitely should keep its slot in A due to its flexibility as an attacker as well as overall bulk and damage output.

    Alright, with that done here's a suggestion of my own:

    Shuckle from C+ to B+ or A-
    [​IMG]
    Shuckle went from not even ranked to C- and just now recently C+, and its already proving to be one of the best GSIs to Furret in the entire meta. Not only that, its an extremely popular and potent choice for stall (aka Wrap Trap) as its able to wall a very large portion of the physical attackers in the tier and trap them with, well, wrap. Additionally, its extremely hard to counter with means such as setup, as Shuckle can encore trap setup mons before giving them the same treatment as every other physical attacker. The only thing holding Shuckle back is its weakness to water, which can be patched up with water types such as Clamperl or Chinchou. Shuckle is an example of a low risk high reward mon that is very dangerous but is slow and only really used on one team type, however due to Shuckle being such a good mon on stall, and with stall already starting to pick up speed, I have no doubts that stall will become even more popular just because of this mon.
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  17. TJ

    TJ n_n
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    843
    Muk from A+ to S
    muk.png
    This thread has been filled with Gen 3 content lately, so I want to bring in Gen4 Discussion. Muk is a stable for Bulky offense and balance due to its great bulk and offensive presence. Muk serves as one of the best checks to Drifblim, a Pokemon that has expeditiously grown in popularity and has centralized the current meta. Muk also checks some of the meta's best Pokémon in Poliwrath, Victreebel, Bellossom, Misdrevus, and Cacturne etc. Additionally, Muk can lure bulky Steel and Rock-types including Probopass, Metang, and Rhydon with Focus Punch. On top of that, Muk checks sun, can revenge kill Psychic-types with Shadow Sneak, and is generally a huge resource for any player wanting a fighting/grass resist that isn't passive and can provide tons of utility and versatility. Lastly, Muk must be considered when teambuilding, forcing players to make sure they have reliable methods of counterplay.

    Sets (open)

    Here are relevant Muk sets that make Muk worthy of S-rank.
    Muk @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Poison Jab
    - Payback

    Muk @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Stench
    EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Focus Punch
    - Poison Jab

    Muk @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Poison Jab
    - Payback
    - Rest
    - Curse
  18. HJAD

    HJAD
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2013
    Messages:
    983
    Approved by Akir

    Gen 5 PU Resource Post

    [​IMG][​IMG]


    Clauses & Banlist
    Clauses:

    • Sleep Clause: Limit one foe put to sleep
    • Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon
    • OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
    • Moody Clause: Moody is banned
    • Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
    • Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
    • Evasion Abilities Clause: Evasion abilities are banned
    • Baton Pass Clause: Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass Spe and other stats simultaneously
    • Swagger Clause: Swagger is banned
    Banlists:

    • Banned Pokemon: - A team cannot have any of the Pokemon found in the following tiers: NU, RU, BL2, UU, BL, OU, and Ubers.
    • Banned Abilities: - Snow Warning, Drought
    • Shell Smash + Baton Pass: - Using a Pokemon carrying both Shell Smash and Baton Pass in its moveset is banned.
    • Drizzle + Swift Swim: - Using both a Pokemon with Drizzle and a Pokemon with Swift Swim on the same team is banned.
    • Auto-Sand e.g. Sandstream is also banned.
    Tournament Banlist for PS (Use Gen5 NU) (open)


    /tour banlist Golurk, Sawk, Musharna, Skuntank, Jynx, Scolipede, Misdreavus, Primeape, Alomomola, Mandibuzz, Piloswine, Ludicolo, Kangaskhan, Eelektross, Gorebyss, Liepard, Roselia, Seismitoad, Golem, Gardevoir, Braviary, Miltank, Probopass, Charizard, Tangela, Haunter, Swellow, Exeggutor, Lickilicky, Samurott, Garbodor, Zangoose, Metang, Electabuzz, Tauros, Armaldo, Kadabra, Wartortle, Gurdurr, Torkoal, Carracosta, Rotom-Fan, Ampharos, Serperior, Regirock, Pinsir, Sawsbuck, Camerupt, Linoone



    Threatlist

    threatlist (open)


    List:
    Lairon Togetic Wigglytuff Kricketune Lopunny Combusken Wormadam Leafeon Unfezant Shedinja Meganium Zweilous Vigoroth Masquerain Delcatty Fraxure Kecleon Simisear Mothim Stunfisk Tropius Castform Exploud Lunatone Ledian Luvdisc Purugly Illumise Girafarig Hypno Plusle Granbull Sudowoodo Pidgeot Vespiquen Seviper Swanna Banette Pachirisu Arbok Glaceon Delibird Murkrow Rapidash Sneasel *Articuno down from NU* *Munchlax down from NU* Lampent Mr. Mime Luxray Mantine Glalie Maractus Octillery Persian Cherrim Emolga Shuckle Shiftry Beartic Mightyena Rotom-Frost Machoke Minun Wormadam-Trash Sunflora *Zebstrika down from NU* Flareon Solrock Carnivine Dunsparce Vileplume Raticate Slaking Golduck Volbeat Stoutland Leavanny Lumineon Kingler Muk Simisage Farfetch'd Grumpig Wormadam-Sandy Phione Whiscash *Marowak down from NU* Spinda Parasect Victreebel Relicanth Mawile Chimecho Ariados Dodrio Fearow Bellossom Wailord Swoobat Stantler Vanilluxe Beheeyem Pelipper Monferno Raichu Magcargo Pikachu Seaking Dewgong Jumpluff Bibarel Heatmor Beautifly Whirlipede Shelgon Natu Chatot Beedrill Gabite *Torterra down from NU* Ursaring Regigigas Noctowl Huntail Throh Rampardos Furret Simipour Seadra Unown Corsola Swalot Watchog Walrein Butterfree Dustox Audino Dragonair

    NFEs:
    Snubbull Bonsly Herdier Charmander Vanillish Abra Bayleef Meditite Darumaka Staryu Tympole Teddiursa Magnemite Squirtle Zorua Lombre Axew Turtwig Pansear Deerling Boldore Glameow Swinub Gastly Panpour Woobat Swablu Starly Feebas Golett Tirtouga Flaaffy Eevee Caterpie Horsea Cranidos Archen Exeggcute Igglybuff Onix Grimer Dwebble Slakoth Pignite Makuhita Palpitoad Eelektrik Shelmet Dewott Venonat Machop Pidgey Cherubi Lotad Litwick Weepinbell Stunky Servine Azurill Krabby Corphish Kabuto Jigglypuff Munna Aipom Tentacool Gloom Hoothoot Vulpix Koffing Bellsprout Dratini Psyduck Tepig Nincada Anorith Pidove Poochyena Combee Roggenrola Poliwhirl Petilil Sentret Nidorino Larvitar Nidorina Tyrogue Cleffa NidoranF NidoranM Pineco Chikorita Shieldon Slugma Hoppip Loudred Voltorb Duosion Growlithe Seedot Diglett Cacnea Sandshrew Wurmple Venipede Yamask Oddish Timburr Sealeo Remoraid Cubone Clefairy Meowth Klink Trapinch Marshtomp Ledyba Seel Chingling Gothita Frillish Spheal Ponyta Nuzleaf Pansage Tynamo Beldum Barboach Carvanha Charmeleon Porygon Grovyle Hippopotas Chinchou Larvesta Patrat Piplup Bidoof Spinarak Deino Weedle Magikarp Pawniard Shroomish Whismur Croagunk Wailmer Skorupi Nosepass Blitzle Wooper Finneon Purrloin Elgyem Doduo Snivy Aron Krokorok Slowpoke Elekid Numel Rattata Rhyhorn Klang Mankey Sandile Gible Ekans Buneary Mienfoo Spoink Taillow Clamperl Ivysaur Omanyte Graveler Kakuna Yanma Lickitung Gulpin Totodile Mantyke Torchic Surskit Luxio Vullaby Zubat Kricketot Cubchoo Cottonee Drilbur Cascoon Ralts Pupitar Grotle Goldeen Kirlia Shellder Poliwag Bagon Spearow Wingull Chimchar Silcoon Karrablast Oshawott Duskull Togepi Paras Skitty Metapod Foongus Trubbish Ducklett Sunkern Budew Skiploom Staravia Phanpy Baltoy Vanillite Minccino Prinplup Sewaddle Pichu Mareep Lileep Rufflet Mime Jr. Happiny Scraggy Geodude Pidgeotto Mudkip Quilava Riolu Houndour Wynaut Bronzor Shellos Burmy Marill Snorunt Croconaw Drowzee Tranquill Electrike Buizel Solosis Shuppet Gothorita Joltik Magby Swadloon Bulbasaur Vibrava Smoochum Treecko Drifloon Shinx Cyndaquil Lillipup Magmar Zigzagoon



    Viability Rankings

    Viability Rankings (open)


    BW PU
    S Rank


    Rotom-Frost
    Vigoroth
    Fraxure

    A+ Rank

    Torterra
    Victreebel
    Jumpluff
    Golduck
    Bronzor
    Duosion
    A Rank

    Beheeyem
    Combusken
    Zebstrika
    Rapidash
    Swanna
    Throh
    Gabite
    Simipour
    Huntail


    A- Rank

    Vileplume
    Mr. Mime
    Machoke
    Muk
    Gothorita
    Rampardos
    Simisage
    Klang
    Mantine
    Arbok

    B+ Rank

    Chinchou
    Dodrio
    Graveler
    Grumpig
    Leafeon
    Maractus
    Monferno
    Pelipper
    Stoutland
    Swoobat
    Ursaring
    Zweilous

    B Rank

    Articuno
    Audino
    Butterfree
    Dragonair
    Fearow
    Flareon
    Glalie
    Hypno
    Kingler
    Lairon
    Luxray
    Marowak
    Munchlax
    Raichu
    Relicanth
    Shiftry
    Simisear

    B- Rank

    Exploud
    Glaceon
    Mawile
    Meganium
    Shelgon
    Sneasel

    C Rank

    Bellosom
    Corsola
    Frillish
    Gastly
    Granbull
    Kecleon
    Volbeat
    Lampent
    Leavanny
    Magmar
    Mightyena
    Murkrow
    Natu
    Persian
    Pidgeot
    Pikachu
    Pupitar
    Regigigas
    Riolu
    Seadra
    Stunfisk
    Tentacool
    Togetic
    Vanilluxe
    Volbeat
    Wailord
    Whirlipede
    Wormadam
    D Rank

    Banette
    Bibarel
    Carnivine
    Magcargo
    Noctowl
    Octillery
    Parasect
    Phione
    Shedinja
    Shuckle
    Spinda
    Sudowoodo
    Swalot
    Unfezant
    Vespiquen
    Wigglytuff

    E-rank
    :pirate: Everything else.




    Sample Teams




    HJAD Balance (open)


    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Wood Hammer
    - Earthquake
    - Synthesis

    Chinchou @ Eviolite
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Scald
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Fraxure @ Eviolite
    Ability: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Taunt
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Superpower

    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Trick

    Volbeat @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Encore
    - U-turn
    - Roost

    Klang @ Eviolite
    Ability: Clear Body
    EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Shift Gear
    - Gear Grind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk



    HJAD Stall (open)


    Maractus @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Synthesis
    - Leech Seed

    Bronzor @ Eviolite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Psywave
    - Toxic
    - Rest

    Audino @ Leftovers
    Ability: Regenerator
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Heal Bell
    - Frustration

    Duosion @ Eviolite
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Acid Armor
    - Psyshock
    - Recover

    Frillish @ Eviolite
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Night Shade
    - Recover

    Zweilous @ Eviolite
    Ability: Hustle
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roar
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest




    Quite Quiet SD Pass Mawile (open)


    Beheeyem @ Leftovers
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball

    Jumpluff @ Flying Gem
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sleep Powder
    - Swords Dance
    - Acrobatics
    - Seed Bomb

    Mawile @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Swords Dance
    - Baton Pass
    - Iron Head

    Simipour @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Grass Knot

    Stunfisk @ Leftovers
    Ability: Static
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Discharge
    - Earth Power
    - Toxic

    Throh @ Choice Band
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Sleep Talk



    Quite Quiet Specs Zebra Balance (open)


    Zebstrika @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Overheat
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Chinchou @ Eviolite
    Ability: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Volt Switch
    - Scald
    - Heal Bell
    - Thunder Wave

    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Wood Hammer
    - Synthesis
    - Earthquake

    Beheeyem @ Leftovers
    Ability: Analytic
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Recover
    - Psychic
    - Shadow Ball

    Shoutout Swagger (Murkrow) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Thunder Wave
    - Taunt
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost

    Machoke @ Eviolite
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 128 Atk / 128 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Rock Slide
    - Ice Punch
    - Sleep Talk




    Speed Tier

    Base Speed Tier (open)



    Name Spd
    Sneasel 115
    Persian 115
    Swoobat 114
    Purugly 112
    Jumpluff 110
    Lopunny 105
    Rapidash 105
    Emolga 103
    Simisear 101
    Simisage 101
    Simipour 101
    Slaking 100
    Dodrio 100
    Fearow 100
    Raichu 100
    Regigigas 100
    Swanna 98
    Basculin 98
    Luvdisc 97
    Raticate 97
    Leafeon 95
    Plusle 95
    Pachirisu 95
    Minun 95
    Unfezant 93
    Leavanny 92
    Pidgeot 91
    Murkrow 91
    Lumineon 91
    Chatot 91
    Vigoroth 90
    Golbat 90
    Pikachu 90
    Furret 90
    Rotom-F 86
    Ledian 85
    Illumise 85
    Girafarig 85
    Cherrim 85
    Golduck 85
    Volbeat 85
    Stantler 85
    Seadra 85
    Gabite 82
    Monferno 81
    Meganium 80
    Arbok 80
    Glalie 80
    Shiftry 80
    Stoutland 80
    Grumpig 80
    Phione 80
    Vanilluxe 79
    Watchog 77
    Delibird 75
    Kingler 75
    Beedrill 75
    Bibarel 71
    Delcatty 70
    Castform 70
    Lunatone 70
    Luxray 70
    Mantine 70
    Mightyena 70
    Solrock 70
    Victreebel 70
    Dewgong 70
    Natu 70
    Noctowl 70
    Butterfree 70
    Dragonair 70
    Exploud 68
    Seaking 68
    Fraxure 67
    Hypno 67
    Mothim 66
    Kricketune 65
    Seviper 65
    Banette 65
    Glaceon 65
    Flareon 65
    Chimecho 65
    Pelipper 65
    Heatmor 65
    Beautifly 65
    Walrein 65
    Dustox 65
    Masquerain 60
    Maractus 60
    Farfetch'd 60
    Whiscash 60
    Spinda 60
    Wailord 60
    Zweilous 58
    Rampardos 58
    Combusken 55
    Lampent 55
    Relicanth 55
    Ursaring 55
    Swalot 55
    Huntail 52
    Tropius 51
    Beartic 50
    Vileplume 50
    Muk 50
    Mawile 50
    Bellossom 50
    Shelgon 50
    Audino 50
    Unown 48
    Whirlipede 47
    Carnivine 46
    Wigglytuff 45
    Granbull 45
    Octillery 45
    Machoke 45
    Dunsparce 45
    Throh 45
    Lairon 40
    Togetic 40
    Shedinja 40
    Kecleon 40
    Vespiquen 40
    Camerupt 40
    Ariados 40
    Beheeyem 40
    Wormadam 36
    Corsola 35
    Stunfisk 32
    Sudowoodo 30
    Sunflora 30
    Parasect 30
    Magcargo 30
    Gigalith 25
    Shuckle 5



    If anyone has any ideas of resources to include in this thread please talk to myself or Akir and we can see if its possible to include :]

    Also feel free to discuss anything BW2 PU related in this thread!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2017
  19. Anty

    Anty dawn breaks
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,936
    Several BW PU players from last PUPL have asked for Linoone to be banned/voted on for the next PUPL so it'd be nice if experienced players would give opinions about it itc.
  20. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    Real quick before I begin, credit to @kd42 (its not letting me tag him so I'll just link his profile) for making the post that I used as a basis for this one. (you can find it here)

    A special trait from other generations that have really been ignored in favor of other health mechanics (such as uneven hp for stealth rocks specifically) is the Maximum Leftover Recovery mechanic. Talked about but not used much since the introduction of Stealth Rock, I think this mechanic could actually be quite useful for the Gen 3 meta.

    What is Maximum Leftover Recovery?
    Any amount of health that is divisible by by 16 from 304 - 704. Basically allows for mons to get extra recovery for their leftovers, allowing for more sustain for the already reliable item.
    Every Max Leftover Recovery number (open)
    304
    320
    336
    352
    368
    384
    400
    416
    432
    448
    464
    480
    496
    512
    528
    544
    560
    576
    592
    608
    624
    640
    656
    672
    688
    704
    Why would I use these numbers?
    When building a set for a tankier mon, these numbers can be good to aim for but should NOT be the only number you consider when building. If you have to sacrifice a lot of hp to hit the number, do not go for the number. If you are using a sweeper but want to hit these numbers, do NOT use these numbers if it takes too much away from attack, or if you miss an important speed benchmark because of it.

    With that out of the way, here is a (near, I might have missed a few) complete list of fully evolved mons who can use these magic numbers:
    Show Hide
    304: Ariados (92), Beautifly (172), Beedrill (132), Butterfree (172), Castform (92), Corsola (212), Crawdaunt (148), Delcatty (92), Dustox (172), Illumise (140), Kingler (212), Magcargo (252), Masquerain (92), Mawile (252), Mightyena (92), Minun (172), Parasect (172), Pelipper (172), Seaking (12), Seviper (68), Spinda (172), Sunflora (52), Venomoth (92), Volbeat (132),


    320: Ariados (156), Beautifly (236), Beedrill (196), Butterfree (236), Castform (156), Crawdaunt (212), Delcatty (156), Dustox (236), Furret (36), Illumise (204), Masquerain (156), Mightyena (156), Parasect (236), Pelipper (236), Seaking (76), Seviper (132), Spinda (236), Sunflora (116), Venomoth (156), Volbeat (196),


    336: Castform (220), Delcatty (220), Furret (100), Masquerain (220), Mightyena (220), Seaking (140), Seviper (196), Sunflora (180), Venomoth (220)


    352: Dunsparce (44), Furret (164), Noctowl (44), Sunflora (244), Tropius (52)


    368: Dunsparce (108), (228), Furret (228), Noctowl (108), Tropius (116)


    384: Dunsparce (172), Noctowl (172), Tropius (180)


    400: Dunsparce (236), Noctowl (236), (236), Tropius (244)


    416: none


    432: Wigglytuff (44)


    448 Wigglytuff (108)


    464: Wigglytuff (172)


    480: Wigglytuff (236)


    496: Wailord (60)


    512: Wailord (124)


    528: Wailord (188)


    544: Wailord (252)
    Mons that can use and abuse this mechanic:
    [​IMG]
    Wailord @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Veil
    EVs: 60 HP / 224 Def / 224 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Water Spout
    - Ice Beam / Toxic / Roar
    Wailord is right there at the top of the list, and honestly can probably abuse this mechanic really well. This allows Wailord to have access to even more sustain, and prevents it from being worn down as easily. Another good example is:
    [​IMG]
    Tropius @ Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 244 HP / 240 Def / 24 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Synthesis
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - Earthquake
    SD Tropius can be very dependent on its Leftovers recovery sometimes, as it helps determine how many swords dances it can get up before having to use synthesis, and determines if it can squeeze in a hit before succumbing to the damage it has taken.

    This isn't as in depth as it could be, but I thought this would be a good thing to share for teambuilders to take and run with and see what they can do to improve their sets in the future. Good building!
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
  21. Anty

    Anty dawn breaks
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    Unless im missing something, Wailord shouldn't be running max HP when you want a mixed defense spread, as its HP is so large it is more efficient to run max EVs on both defences. For reference:
    0 SpA Wailord Thunder (250 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Wailord: 375-442 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Wailord Thunder (250 BP) vs. 252 HP / 126+ SpD Wailord: 450-530 (82.7 - 97.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    0- Atk Wailord Explosion vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Wailord: 369-435 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0- Atk Wailord Explosion vs. 252 HP / 126 Def Wailord: 445-524 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    You also are at 481 HP points which is 1 above a special leftovers number so pretty much as efficient. The only reason not to run this would be seismic toss/night shade (idc how common it is), but you still have a redic high HP stat. Wigglytuff is also in the same boat.
  22. Solar Flare

    Solar Flare

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Messages:
    61
    its not really a set, err, set. its moreso just an example for a mon that can abuse the mechanic, I'm not great at making EV spreads personally :[ a better example would be:
    Wailord @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Veil
    EVs: 60 HP / 224 Def / 224 SpD
    Calm Nature

    calcs:
    0 SpA Wailord Thunder vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Wailord: 181-214 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Wailord Thunder vs. 60 HP / 228+ SpD Wailord: 187-220 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- Atk Wailord Explosion vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Wailord: 369-435 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0- Atk Wailord Explosion vs. 60 HP / 228 Def Wailord: 381-449 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    this EV spread takes roughly the same amount of damage as the other Wailord spread (aka the standard resttalk spread). However, it gains more leftovers recovery and therefor gains more sustain. Updating the set, thanks for pointing it out.
  23. pancake

    pancake up jumped spring time
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    hello this is a post talking about some really cool shit I've tried recently for gen 4. Mainly, there's one thing that you know about if you've talked to me at all about gen 4...

    upload_2017-4-23_20-26-34.png

    Dragonair @ Life Orb
    Ability: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - Extreme Speed
    - Aqua Tail

    There's definitely some potential for band or even special sets because this mon is insane lol. There are like 2 steels in the tier and so nothing wants to take an Adamant Life Orb outrage. It has a decent speed tier, great priority that hits pretty hard, and fine natural bulk (for this tier) to boot. After a Dragon Dance it is extremely threatening to the majority teams in this tier. Aqua Tail is nice coverage to OHKO rhydon unboosted, also it learns like nothing else.

    If I were writing the VR this mon would be at least B- which I don't think is unrealistic but at least rank it because it is very good, you should definitely try it.

    team redacted until suspect ends so I can use it

    And here have some more cool sets:

    upload_2017-4-23_20-34-56.png

    Muk @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Gunk Shot
    - Payback
    - Explosion
    - Fire Punch / Giga Drain

    AoA Sludge Muk. You can definitely tinker with EV spread a bit because I kinda forget what it does but I think it hits a jump point lol. This set is great for offense that needs a good check to Vic/Poli but doesn't want to use the momentum drain that is CroMuk. Explosion is so good in gen 4 lol I don't know why people don't run more mons with it; it gives you a ton of momentum while severely weakening the opp. It's certainly better than band in this meta get that shit out of the viability rankings please and thank you.

    upload_2017-4-23_20-35-16.png

    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 156 Atk / 100 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Waterfall
    - Encore

    SubPunch wrath is something that has been explored, but Encore is ridiculous in gen 4 and so why not throw it on a mon that can abuse it? Again the EV spread is flexible, I suggest at least 88 speed though. Encore allows you to set up a sub on shit like Sableye and opposing wrath, it's a real pain for bulkier teams. SubPunch wrath generally gets overshadowed by the generally better AoA special sets but it's actually really good and you should definitely try it.

    Also Encore on wrath is something that is generally unexplored in gen 4 so try it out on special sets too, 3 attacks encore sounds nice.

    upload_2017-4-23_20-35-33.png

    Victreebel @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
    - Leaf Storm
    - Energy Ball
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    This was going around a while ago, I'm the only one who I've seen use it but I know other people have. It's a decent revenge killer but it's gotten so much worse lately due to the rise of drifblim and muk. I felt like I should post it anyway because it was really good at a point in time (mainly, the part of the meta where rhydon dominated so muk wasn't as popular) and while I wouldn't exactly say try it out now in the future it might get better again so keep it in the back of your mind. It probably is worth a place on the vr n_n

    Lastly I'd like to take a look at a move: Knock Off. It's certainly not for every mon and this is nothing new but it's definitely a viable-ish option when teambuilding. It's nice to knock off shit like poli's lefties and drifblim's sitrus even if it's super weak; it's more of a defensive move if anything. But yeah lol

    enjoy n_n
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
    Many, Conor3197, ShuckleDeath and 8 others like this.
  24. GeneralAnnoyance

    GeneralAnnoyance

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2014
    Messages:
    204
    I like the post. Dragonair looks really cool and I look forward to testing out your Poli set as well. One thing I'd like to comment on is Scarf Vic is not too good. I used it in one of my tour games and while recording a game analysis the other day I noticed how hard I got bodied because I couldn't utilize vic being able to exploit its valuable movepool and dual stab. Again, I don't mean to seem critical though. I look forward to giving all your sets a try in the coming week :)
    pancake likes this.
  25. Akir

    Akir What's the Mystery Flavor?
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

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    Now it's time for the long-awaited

    Gen4 PU Viability Rankings Update!

    Drifblim A to A+
    Cacturne A- to A
    Machoke A- to A
    Gastrodon B+ to A-
    Electabuzz B+ to A-
    Probopass B to B+
    Zangoose A- to B+
    Quagsire A- to B+
    Gorebyss added to B+
    Kecleon B+ to B
    Pelipper C+ to B
    Solrock C to B
    Dragonair added to B
    Yanma B to C+

    A:
    Drifblim has become a menace in Gen4 PU, with its excellent typing and huge bulk allowing for easy and consistent setup which, combined with good coverage and the Unburden boost, can sweep teams cleanly with only 1 Calm Mind boost with the possibility of more. Cacturne has also proven to be a strong wallbreaker with good priority and a fairly unique way of punishing the common switches it forces: setting up Spikes. Machoke has also gained even more popularity and effectiveness as an Antilead as some faster lead sets are able to make Machoke even harder to deal with. Gastrodon's ability to check Rhydon, Poliwrath, Muk, and more in 1 singular spot has made Gastrodon a popular glue option for balance teams, and Electabuzz has risen in viability with the popularization of Poliwrath leads and Electabuzz's coverage being even more potent as people use less Grass and more Ground/Steel/Flying.

    B:
    Zangoose and Quagsire find themselves in a metagame that does not particularly demand what they can do. Zangoose's Choice Scarf set is easily a setup opportunity for Ghosts and other mons such as Rhydon, and the Swords Dance set can prove to be too slow to sweep. Quagsire is...quite frankly outclassed by Physically Defensive Poliwrath in just about every single way except the former getting Recover. Probopass is also a strong support mon with plenty of bulk, support options such as Stealth Rock and Thunder Wave, and Taunt sets can check Ghosts. Gorebyss was added to B+ for being a powerhouse of a mon that can wallbreak midgame with strong coverage and STAB options and then set up lategame for a clean sweep, with the bulk and typing to make it difficult to stop. Kecleon's inability to threaten Ghosts outside of weak coverage and Toxic betrays it and makes Kecleon a setup opportunity for a lot of threats such as Drifblim. Pelipper and Solrock both rise due to being excellent role compression as they are able to check a lot of key threats in one singular slot while also providing support in the forms of U-turn and Stealth Rock + Will-O-Wisp, respectively. Dragonair was added to B as a setup mon that has good priority and coverage while also boasting the nearly-unresisted Outrage.

    C:
    Yanma is a liability in most games nowadays, and has rapidly fallen from grace due to the rise in popularity of mons such as Muk and Drifblim. Yanma's middling bulk and lack of power also means that as the tier gets bulkier Yanma gets less effective. Overall Yanma is just not very effective anymore but still can clean up offensive teams.

    That was a lot, but it was also rather overdue. I was going to make a retort to TJ's nomination of Muk to S before posting this but I actually wanted to hear other people's opinions first. So, here are some discussion points:

    Discussion:
    Muk A+ to S
    Drifblim A+ to S
    Rapidash A+ to A
    Lickilicky A- to A
    Kecleon B to B-
    Lapras B- to C+
    Kingler B- to C+

    There is also a bigger announcement coming soon, but I need to iron out some details. Thanks for reading!
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2017
    tenkai, Aaronboyer, 5gen and 7 others like this.

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