Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Raiza]

quote

except for the fact that sun is much better than rain, that's already one thing that puts Onix ahead of Relicanth, also rain sets are niche and are difficult to accomplish or are outclassed, for example I would never use Relicanth as a swift swimmer, when I got other better options such as Beartic and Golduck. Onix is also faster than Relicanth, that makes it less Taunt bait and set up things with more ease. As a Rain Lead you don't need the bulk, the speed is more important, as after you set up weather you will most likely suicide or switch out to not waste weather turns. Relicanth can also fullfill other roles such as the Choice Band and phys def yes, but its low speed and subpar typing make it hard to splash on a team, and it still faces competition with other water-types such as costa and poli, while other choice band users such as zwei still give it competition for a teamslot. If the sets it can run are all C worthy, it isn't C+ material.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

In this episode of me trying to raise something I like, I present to you Pelipper.
A- to A

Welcome to the Poli meta, a place where Poliwraths run free and unchecked. Now imagine that place, FULL OF THESE! Monster birds. Birds that sponge every wrath set. That's my dream. A world where we don't have to fear such threat.
To begin, we have a super versatile mon with recovery, hazard control, and great physical bulk and typing. Pelipper can run a u-turn, scald, defog/toxic, roost set OR he can use the god set of defog, roost, scald, and AIR SLASH. That's right folks. We have a flying type that actually resists fighting moves! Unlike half the other flying/normal garbage mons. Okay, so the set i'm pushing for does so many things for pelipper. Firstly, you can afford to make bad plays with it. Poli comes in with water absorb, BAM, air slash. deal with it. Second, you can mess up the top tier rockers hard. Piloswine (the porky terror) cannot handle Peli without freeze dry, which i've only seen like once. Carracosta can mess it up pretty hard with rock moves, but you take under half from the defensive variant and you can scald it. So that's it. He's super solid at what he does. I think he deserves a bump up. Support him with a ground type for electric moves and you're sitting pretty. EDIT: Just have been informed that some people run this thing with 252+ SpDef. Take that, meta.

 

[Twix]

I'd like to nominate Mr. Mime from B+ -> A-

Mr. Mime is such a cool Pokemon in the metagame with options such as Healing Wish and Future Sight. Mime has some pretty cool diversity in either a Scarf or Life Orb set, which both have their own credentials. Since Haunter left, Mime faces less competition as well as having a unique typing which can allow it to deal more damage to Dark-Types then Kadabra. Although it doesn't have Magic Guard, Filter is a pretty cool ability which can allow it to take on Machoke's Bullet Punches as well as Shadow Balls from Misdreavus and fire back with a strong shot. Although Soundproof isn't as good as it used to be due to Chatter's ban, it's still very effective in the metagame regardless of the set it uses. Scarf Mr. Mime can outspeed various threats in the meta such as Rock Polish Aurorus, Swift Swim Beartic, and Shell Smash Carracosta.

 

[MZ]

Scarf mime is weak as shit. I'd rather use simipour/rotom for a special scarfer, healing wish is good but more of a B+ niche imo. Non scarf sets are pretty ass. Sorry this is short, that's literally all I got

 

[tmacbalanced]

Scarf mime is weak as shit. I'd rather use simipour/rotom for a special scarfer, healing wish is good but more of a B+ niche imo. Non scarf sets are pretty ass. Sorry this is short, that's literally all I got

I agree to a certain extent. Mime really doesn't hit that hard most of the time. But it does have it's moments.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 272-324 (89.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
True, Mr.Mime does not run psyshock but, it does show that has potential to hit hard & Roselia is around on quite a few teams since it's S rank.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 160+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 152-180 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So with it's standard set, it hits decently.
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Filter Mr. Mime: 126-148 (57 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It's bulk isn't too bad either, I guess.
I do have to agree with it's ability to have a fast healing wish being amazing but, when the battle doesn't go your way (predictions, accidental team countering, hax, etc.) it's tough to pull it off. So, in some cases that niche might A rank worthy & in other ways it may seem B rank worthy. I am honestly not surprised that people find it to be B+ or A-.
With the scarf, MrMime has great potential to be a late game changer. You just have to consider on whether or not a late-game changer is A- worthy or that it should stay in B+.
Also, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Poliwrath Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime: 169-199 (76.4 - 90%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Not sure if that counts as "taking a hit relatively well", though, without specs it can take it a bit better:
252+ SpA Poliwrath Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime: 112-133 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[tmacbalanced]

still though, i feel like it has just as good of, if not a better niche than Regice or Mightyena

I agree with MrMime might having a better niche than Mightyena but not Regice. That's my opinion though.
Reason why is that Mr.Mime has more choices than Mightyena in late-game with outspeeding pokemon, hitting with decent damage (which is good against weakened pokemon), it can healing wish, & has better bulk.
Sometimes you can play around with Mightyena's Sucker Punches (it's main niche imo) causing 50/50s.
Regice has even better bulk though, can hit harder (before Mightyena's moxie boosts) with Life Orb, & has good speed after a rock polish.

 

[RawMelon]

Scarf mime is weak as shit. I'd rather use simipour/rotom for a special scarfer, healing wish is good but more of a B+ niche imo. Non scarf sets are pretty ass. Sorry this is short, that's literally all I got

I think Healing Wish makes scarf Mime better than simply because they don't hit much harder to justify them being better and although they have good coverage in general I don't find myself enjoying spamming hydro, ice beam, grass knot, that much in PU because there's so much that switches in after they know your scarf. Another thing with Simi is that it can't really switch in on anything, I know a scarfer is more of a revenge killer but at least mime can switch in on some threats like poli, machoke, etc. and force switches or healing wish to get nice momentum. Also, Mime's typing makes it a nice fit that compliments a lot of balance and hyper offense without having to use your "water slot" for scarf Simi when you can run something like Mime + any of the multitude of great waters we have in PU.

Rotom isn't bad by any means but as a revenge killer it gets maybe 3 or 4 switch-ins assuming rocks are up (they probably are) and they haven't taken damage. The scarf set particualry is walled by Pilo and if you use trick then maybe you cripple Pilo but you lose your scarfer.

 

[Natural Talent]

Add to somewhere D - C (probably aiming for C-

has nice bulk with eviolite and is pretty strong with it's nice stabs.

Looking through the lack of fights and saw this on the team builder. I tested it out and it's not half bad. It can creep roselia and kill it with flare blitz. Super power to hit things that resist flare blitz and sucker punch to pick off some things.

Gets some coverage moves such as wild charge, grass knot (carracosta), zen headbutt, taunt, stone edge, gyro ball and more.

seems like a cool mon and it would be great to see it on the viability rankings


Also agree with dundies on the addition of Porygon to the viability rankings

 

[Twix]

I'm going to nominate I think is undervalued and deserving of a higher ranking in the tier

Vibrava from D -> C-

Vibrava is actually a really solid Defogger in the meta game, which is one of the only that can take on Pawniard. It also has a solid momentum move with U-Turn which doesn't make it a sitting duck as well as having no weakness to Stealth Rock and ability to use Eviolite. In addition, the moth can also take on threats in the metagame such as Ninetales, Zebstrika, and Raichu with Earthquake. On the same token, Vibrava has reliable recovery in Roost as well as being immune to Toxic Spikes and Spikes which can wear other hazard removers without a Stealth Rock weakness down. Truthfully, the only reason that Vibrava isn't ranked higher is that people haven't actually used it and/or knew how to use it correctly.

 

[MaroGod]

I'm going to nominate I think is undervalued and deserving of a higher ranking in the tier

Vibrava from D -> C-

Vibrava is actually a really solid Defogger in the meta game, which is one of the only that can take on Pawniard. It also has a solid momentum move with U-Turn which doesn't make it a sitting duck as well as having no weakness to Stealth Rock and ability to use Eviolite. In addition, the moth can also take on threats in the metagame such as Ninetales, Zebstrika, and Raichu with Earthquake. On the same token, Vibrava has reliable recovery in Roost as well as being immune to Toxic Spikes and Spikes which can wear other hazard removers without a Stealth Rock weakness down. Truthfully, the only reason that Vibrava isn't ranked higher is that people haven't actually used it and/or knew how to use it correctly.

I 100% agree with Ben Vibrava it's one of the many Pu pokes we have that's a diamond in the rough. Fantastic typing a great ability and able to take on even more mons like Rapidash, Golem and Stunfisk to name some more.

 

[ManOfMany]

I'm going to nominate I think is undervalued and deserving of a higher ranking in the tier

Vibrava from D -> C-

Vibrava is actually a really solid Defogger in the meta game, which is one of the only that can take on Pawniard. It also has a solid momentum move with U-Turn which doesn't make it a sitting duck as well as having no weakness to Stealth Rock and ability to use Eviolite. In addition, the moth can also take on threats in the metagame such as Ninetales, Zebstrika, and Raichu with Earthquake. On the same token, Vibrava has reliable recovery in Roost as well as being immune to Toxic Spikes and Spikes which can wear other hazard removers without a Stealth Rock weakness down. Truthfully, the only reason that Vibrava isn't ranked higher is that people haven't actually used it and/or knew how to use it correctly.

I agree Vibrava is pretty solid, but it doesn't really take on Pawniard cause it hates knock off and after knock off can just be iron headed to death, and it doesn't deal with Raichu because that always runs HP ice.

 

[Twix]

ManOfMany What I was trying to say is that Pawniard can't freely switch in seeing as it can deal a lot of damage with EQ

 

[Magnemite]

I wasn't going to move Vibrava up yet because no one had tested it much, but I just played a few games with it and it's actually pretty decent in this metagame. The thing that turns it from gutter trash into a decent mon is U-turn, which lets it switch in on one of the several important mons it walls and not be a complete momentum suck but actually gain a lot of momentum. It's easily the best Zebstrika check in the tier, making it take less than 20% from any of its moves while not letting it just Volt Switch out like other checks. It also Defogs on common rock setters like Probopass and Golem which is good too. Definitely not the best mon ever, but it honestly removed hazards more reliably than stuff like Armaldo and Swanna when I used them. Being an SR resistent and Spikes immune Defogger in this metagame is really cool, especially when you have recovery and U-turn. I'll probably move it to C rank for now, but I could definitely see it being C+ after more testing. Also here are replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-237358481
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-237362056

 

[Magnemite]

Nah, that's just for PUPL. The old vr's are there as a representation of what the metagame was at that time, and because of that I don't want to change them (even though there are obvious inaccuracies with the old ones like jumpluff in c rank because no one used it until january or so). However, if people are interested I could make a new thread with past metagames (including bw) and actually update it based on what is more objectively good in the tier, though that would require quite a bit of effort and a lot of testing.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I wasn't going to move Vibrava up yet because no one had tested it much, but I just played a few games with it and it's actually pretty decent in this metagame. The thing that turns it from gutter trash into a decent mon is U-turn, which lets it switch in on one of the several important mons it walls and not be a complete momentum suck but actually gain a lot of momentum. It's easily the best Zebstrika check in the tier, making it take less than 20% from any of its moves while not letting it just Volt Switch out like other checks. It also Defogs on common rock setters like Probopass and Golem which is good too. Definitely not the best mon ever, but it honestly removed hazards more reliably than stuff like Armaldo and Swanna when I used them. Being an SR resistent and Spikes immune Defogger in this metagame is really cool, especially when you have recovery and U-turn. I'll probably move it to C rank for now, but I could definitely see it being C+ after more testing. Also here are replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-237358481
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-237362056

Last post of Page 10, i was posting Vibrava for C
u serious Mag? haha
Anyway, agreed for its utility as a defogger & overall electric/fire check, access to U-Turn, & packing decent offensive presence with its EQ.

 

[letterman4]

I think Ramphrados should go from B- to A-/B+. This thing is a beast when it comes to Trick Room. A good combination of Mold Breaker + EdgeQuake + Head Smash makes it almost unstoppable and an excellent Wallbreaker.

 

[MZ]

I think Ramphrados should go from B- to A-/B+. This thing is a beast when it comes to Trick Room. A good combination of Mold Breaker + EdgeQuake + Head Smash makes it almost unstoppable and an excellent Wallbreaker.

This is an enormous change, you're going to need more than a two liner to justify this, ideally with replays. Trick room is far too niche for it to justify Rampardos being higher, and with plenty of amazing wall/stallbreakers like Stoutland, Simipour, Chatot, Vigoroth, etc which have better speed and/or bulk I fail to see why we'd raise this.

 

[Raiza]

That's way too much of a change in my opinion too. I'm an avid Rampardos user and found some success using it, but that don't justifies this change. I could see it at B at maximum, but that's still improbable. Trick Room is too niche as Dundies already said. And I want to add that its low speed and really mediocre bulk make it struggle even wallbreaking weaker foes. The lack of Speed and bulk really don't help Rampardos, in a metagame full of offensive and fast powerhouses, which is really harsh to it. Rampardos can also run other sets other than the classic wallbreaker, such as the Anti-Lead and the Choice Scarf(I think the latter is the best), though they don't exceed that much to make Rampardos jump to B+ or A- material. I could see Rampardos going to B+ or A- if the metagame shifts drastically to a more defensive metagame, but that's unlikely

 

[Mistress Remilia]

I think Ramphrados should go from B- to A-/B+. This thing is a beast when it comes to Trick Room. A good combination of Mold Breaker + EdgeQuake + Head Smash makes it almost unstoppable and an excellent Wallbreaker.

Even through Rampardos is quite fun to run, it has a bunch of flaws.
Rampardos' slow speed & unimpressive bulk make him very matchup reliant, winning against slower teams & mostly stall, but with Stall being a pretty mediocre playstyle in PU, this makes Rampardos struggling even more to get into doing things.
It is still able to pull off some things that are more suited for Offensive teams, such as his Anti lead set, packing a very good matchup against some of the most commons leads, or even a regular wallbreaking set can do some stuff against offense if Rampardos ever finds a way to switch: The pay off is really good & punish your opponent really hard.

But overall, that isn't enough to push Rampardos up to B+, it's fine in B-.

 

[MaroGod]

Piloswine to S rank

This is a very large and risky nomination

Piloswine is uniquely typed ice/ground and (arguably) one of the best eviolite users in pu which even knocked off doesn't hamper the swine staples capabilities in a match

piloswine (again arguably) is one of the best leads in the game able to take on and or scare out a majority of leads with its stab moves such as Golem, Probopass, Torterra, Stunfisk ect.

It is also able to run other moves besides its common sets such as freeze-dry for the defoggers Swanna and Pelipper and other water types on switch in

And stone edge also for the defoggers but also for the likes of Armaldo and Rotom-F

It also handles the slight popularity gain of the ground/dragon types Gabite and Vibrava

Packing Thick Fat as its standard ability it is able to handle Ice and check Fire types hitting all (bard Rotom-F) with a powerful EQ pack this up max invested adamant it hits for a massive chunk

Now the reason why this was a risky nomination was because Pilo is far from perfect being weak to the common grass, water and fighting moves it is also easily scared out by poliwrath it is also easily checked by many mons especially at low Hp

All things considers i would like a friendly discussion about its Pros and Cons for S rank

 

[Raiza]

Piloswine to S rank

This is a very large and risky nomination

Piloswine is uniquely typed ice/ground and (arguably) one of the best eviolite users in pu which even knocked off doesn't hamper the swine staples capabilities in a match

piloswine (again arguably) is one of the best leads in the game able to take on and or scare out a majority of leads with its stab moves such as Golem, Probopass, Torterra, Stunfisk ect.

It is also able to run other moves besides its common sets such as freeze-dry for the defoggers Swanna and Pelipper and other water types on switch in

And stone edge also for the defoggers but also for the likes of Armaldo and Rotom-F

It also handles the slight popularity gain of the ground/dragon types Gabite and Vibrava

Packing Thick Fat as its standard ability it is able to handle Ice and check Fire types hitting all (bard Rotom-F) with a powerful EQ pack this up max invested adamant it hits for a massive chunk

Now the reason why this was a risky nomination was because Pilo is far from perfect being weak to the common grass, water and fighting moves it is also easily scared out by poliwrath it is also easily checked by many mons especially at low Hp

All things considers i would like a friendly discussion about its Pros and Cons for S rank

This is an interesting nomination, though I oppose to this. The A+ rank fits perfectly in my opinion. To start off, it can only run a lead set, so it can be predictable. Piloswine isn't really a meta defining Pokemon, and some points you listed are shaky. Ground-type is good to stop Volt Switch chains, though most Electric-types such as Raichu often pack coverage moves that can take advantage of its other weaknesses. It doesn't have many other viable options, if you run Freeze-dry and Stone Edge you have to give up Icicle Spear, which makes it decent against other leads you listed, so they're pretty meh as choices. It faces a lot of competition by other Stealth Rock leads, especially Torterra, which I prefer at the moment, as it can also be run on balanced and defensive-ish teams, because of its access to a reliable recovery among other things.The last point you mentioned is a big deal, as its weaknesses to common types make it easier for the opponent to counter-lead it. Piloswine's lack of recovery resonates with this, as it often makes it easily wear down and put in range of coverage moves usually ran by Pokemon it should check. It is still an almost excellent Pokemon for some reasons you already posted, but not S rank worthy.

 

[Tect]

This is an interesting nomination, though I oppose to this. The A+ rank fits perfectly in my opinion. To start off, it can only run a lead set, so it can be predictable. Piloswine isn't really a meta defining Pokemon, and some points you listed are shaky. Ground-type is good to stop Volt Switch chains, though most Electric-types such as Raichu often pack coverage moves that can take advantage of its other weaknesses. It doesn't have many other viable options, if you run Freeze-dry and Stone Edge you have to give up Icicle Spear, which makes it decent against other leads you listed, so they're pretty meh as choices. It faces a lot of competition by other Stealth Rock leads, especially Torterra, which I prefer at the moment, as it can also be run on balanced and defensive-ish teams, because of its access to a reliable recovery among other things.The last point you mentioned is a big deal, as its weaknesses to common types make it easier for the opponent to counter-lead it. Piloswine's lack of recovery resonates with this, as it often makes it easily wear down and put in range of coverage moves usually ran by Pokemon it should check. It is still an almost excellent Pokemon for some reasons you already posted, but not S rank worthy.

Free Slack Off Swinub ....But, in all seriousness, if Piloswine was ANY better I feel as though we would lose it quite quickly. A+ seems perfect imo.

 

[Magnemite]

Bringing back D rank subranks since the meta is developed enough now to the point where we actually can know what is better than what else at those ranks.

Vibrava from D to C
Gastly from C- to D+
Huntail from C- to D
Lampent from C- to D+
Masquerain from C- to D
Glaceon from D to E

 

[MZ]

Ghastly to D
lol this was ranked on pure theorymon. Misdreavus and even Drifblim are way better, and basically all you get with it is poison STAB for Fairies over blimp and better speed over missy. lame/10

 

[RawMelon]

Bringing back D rank subranks since the meta is developed enough now to the point where we actually can know what is better than what else at those ranks.

Vibrava from D to C
Gastly from C- to D+
Huntail from C- to D
Lampent from C- to D+
Masquerain from C- to D
Glaceon from D to E

Can we please get a Koffing rank. D is justifiable