Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Magnemite]

Can we please get a Koffing rank. D is justifiable

I've decided to be more strict with ranking NFE's in D rank just because one of two people thought they were good. If a bunch of people use Koffing and find it to be viable and worth using over other options, then I'll rank it, but as of now only a couple of people have said anything about it both in this thread and elsewhere, so I don't see a reason to rank it yet.

Edit: to be clear every nfe that is currently ranked is viable and in the rank I think it should be in

 

[tmacbalanced]

So I checked out Koffing a bit for myself; I battled with the little guy, versed it, & ran some calcs on it. Poison typing with levitate is nice for a physical wall. It can wisp the knock offers & haze or clear smog any stat boosts they might try to gain with some set-up moves. 95 defense is a good number to have against physical threats. It can wear down other pokemon that want to come in with pain split. It can also help other pokemon that want to set-up, with memento. You could use Jumpluff because it's faster & can put mons to sleep but, this guy is a tad bit different due it's walling capabilities. Sleep can last from 1-3 turns while burns can last the whole game (excluding heal bell, other moves, & abilities), Jumpluff can be worn down by rocks, Koffing takes neutral damage from rocks. This means that Koffing isn't all that bad, it can fit on some teams but, not all. It can even be used against the infamous chlorophyll Leafeon & Machoke. Koffing can even set-up hazards with toxic spikes. Koffing can explode if it's no longer useful. There are quite a few benefits in using this pokemon if you use it wisely. I feel that other competitive battlers should use this pokemon to find out what it's best set is. For now, this guy is still under testing. I nominate Koffing to D rank or D- rank

 

[g]

So I checked out Koffing a bit for myself; I battled with the little guy, versed it, & ran some calcs on it. Poison typing with levitate is nice for a physical wall. It can wisp the knock offers & haze or clear smog any stat boosts they might try to gain with some set-up moves. 95 defense is a good number to have against physical threats. It can wear down other pokemon that want to come in with pain split. It can also help other pokemon that want to set-up, with memento. You could use Jumpluff because it's faster & can put mons to sleep but, this guy is a tad bit different due it's walling capabilities. Sleep can last from 1-3 turns while burns can last the whole game (excluding heal bell, other moves, & abilities), Jumpluff can be worn down by rocks, Koffing takes neutral damage from rocks. This means that Koffing isn't all that bad, it can fit on some teams but, not all. It can even be used against the infamous chlorophyll Leafeon & Machoke. Koffing can even set-up hazards with toxic spikes. Koffing can explode if it's no longer useful. There are quite a few benefits in using this pokemon if you use it wisely. I feel that other competitive battlers should use this pokemon to find out what it's best set is. For now, this guy is still under testing. I nominate Koffing to E rank or D- rank

E rank is only for fully evolved Pokemon and you can assume everything not listed to be in E.
Also please focus your discussion on ACTUALLY GOOD POKEMON instead of trying to justify the use of Koffing on some teams in some circumstances. Please do not derail the thred with NFE to be ranked posts unless you have relevant replays (not low ladder or joke games) of them being effective.

 

[MZ]

I think people are on about Koffing because that's like the only change to make. The upper ranks look really good thanks to a lack of tiers shifts and so long to work on them. Aside from the obvious Roselia to a+ there isn't much more to change, and the council has been quite clear that they're unwilling to drop it no matter how many people want it to drop. At best I could see Dusknoir going up a rank, but everything feels solid imo. We just had an update where the highest rank touched was C, can you blame people for koffing?

 

[WhiteDMist]

Alright, so it looks like this needs to be said: do not post one-liners in this thread (or in most any sub-forum tbh). Unless it is an exceptional sentence that is able to justify or explain something in a few words, one-liners rarely contribute anything of value to a thread. As for Koffing or any other NFE not already included in the Viability Rankings (or even already included): if you guys want to talk about such a niche Pokemon without derailing the thread, put the effort into actually investigating its uses in the metagame and providing substantial FACTS and REPLAYS to prove your point. Opinions contribute very little if they do not have something to back them up, nor do half-assed posts that look at a single point and ignore everything else that has been said. Account for opposition, and do not attempt to ignore the drawbacks of a Pokemon either.

For this thread, remember this: it is not on the community to do the research and debating for your proposed change(s). If you want something to rise, drop, or be added, please do the work to gather the evidence.

I have used Koffing for a couple of battles and it isn't too terrible, but it is naturally very passive and really can only Toxic Spikes or Will-O-Wisp to take advantage of any free turn it gets. If you want Koffing to be ranked, explain how that isn't a problem and you may have something to work with.

EDIT: This is now included in the OP.

 

[tmacbalanced]

E rank is only for fully evolved Pokemon and you can assume everything not listed to be in E.
Also please focus your discussion on ACTUALLY GOOD POKEMON instead of trying to justify the use of Koffing on some teams in some circumstances. Please do not derail the thred with NFE to be ranked posts unless you have relevant replays (not low ladder or joke games) of them being effective.

Yeah I meant to put "D" rank, that was my bad. I'll get some replays though for this pokemon. It'll be a bit tough since PU battles are not easy to get, especially the good ones. I did manage to have a good battle before with it & now I wish I saved the replay haha. Anyways, I have focused my attention on actual good pokemon before but, I figured since no one really cared about that then I would put my own two cents in whatever other post I could. To be honest, I wasn't all "gah-gah" for Koffing before but, after running some calcs, I realized this pokemon isn't all that bad. I even put it to the test. I'll put an "edit" on this post when I get the replays though.

 

[Tect]

Yeah I meant to put "D" rank, that was my bad. I'll get some replays though for this pokemon. It'll be a bit tough since PU battles are not easy to get, especially the good ones. I did manage to have a good battle before with it & now I wish I saved the replay haha. Anyways, I have focused my attention on actual good pokemon before but, I figured since no one really cared about that then I would put my own two cents in whatever other post I could. To be honest, I wasn't all "gah-gah" for Koffing before but, after running some calcs, I realized this pokemon isn't all that bad. I even put it to the test. I'll put an "edit" on this post when I get the replays though.

I mean, tbf, I tried to get Trubbish ranked during Throh/Sneasel meta. It 1 v 1'd both of them and it still didn't get ranked. And Koffing is just a bad floating Trubbish that loses its evio and doesn't even have access to spikes. Pointless to try imo.

 

[ManOfMany]

Swoobat to C+, Persian to C

Reason for this is that I feel Swoobat is a more threatening sweeper than Persian, so it shouldn't be a full ranking below it.

Comparison:

1. Swoobat sets up easier. The only pokemon that Persian easily sets up against is Misdreavus without Hidden Power Fighting, and even then it is annoyed by will-o-wisp. Due to its awful bulk combined with lack of resistances it needs to be at absolutely full health to not die of life orb recoil. Meanwhile, due to the nature of calm mind and its decent amount of resistances, Swoobat sets up easily against Gourgeist, Tangela, Pelipper, unboosted Ninetales, etc.

2. Swoobat has more longevity. Due to the ability to run Roost, it can heal up on weaker special attackers, and moves like Simipour's Ice Beam and even leftovers Regice Ice Beam are neutralized. Swoobat can even run a taunt + roost set that destroys pokemon that rely on status like Togetic. Persian's life orb recoil on the other hand, brings it down quickly, especially with smart switching by the opponent.

3. They are more or less equally easy to revenge kill. Swoobat is weak to Sucker Punch, but both of them die to sucker punch users anyway unless using substitute. Swoobat is revenge-killed by Ice Shard, which Persian isn't. However, Swoobat is not revenge-killed by Scarf Simipour and Floatzel due to special defense boosts.

Also, I would like to clear some misconceptions. It can be argued that Persian has more immediate offensive presence- but Swoobat is perfectly capable of running Psychic instead of Stored Power. In fact, I would even say that Psychic with Life Orb is the superior set, as this is an offensive metagame.

tldr: Swoobat is a bit better as a sweeper than Persian, and an underrated threat in general. It sets up easier, is better vs bulkier opponents, and is more versatile.

 

[MaroGod]

Swoobat to C+, Persian to C

Reason for this is that I feel Swoobat is a more threatening sweeper than Persian, so it shouldn't be a full ranking below it.

Comparison:

1. Swoobat sets up easier. The only pokemon that Persian easily sets up against is Misdreavus without Hidden Power Fighting, and even then it is annoyed by will-o-wisp. Due to its awful bulk combined with lack of resistances it needs to be at absolutely full health to not die of life orb recoil. Meanwhile, due to the nature of calm mind and its decent amount of resistances, Swoobat sets up easily against Gourgeist, Tangela, Pelipper, unboosted Ninetales, etc.

2. Swoobat has more longevity. Due to the ability to run Roost, it can heal up on weaker special attackers, and moves like Simipour's Ice Beam and even leftovers Regice Ice Beam are neutralized. Swoobat can even run a taunt + roost set that destroys pokemon that rely on status like Togetic. Persian's life orb recoil on the other hand, brings it down quickly, especially with smart switching by the opponent.

3. They are more or less equally easy to revenge kill. Swoobat is weak to Sucker Punch, but both of them die to sucker punch users anyway unless using substitute. Swoobat is revenge-killed by Ice Shard, which Persian isn't. However, Swoobat is not revenge-killed by Scarf Simipour and Floatzel due to special defense boosts.

Also, I would like to clear some misconceptions. It can be argued that Persian has more immediate offensive presence- but Swoobat is perfectly capable of running Psychic instead of Stored Power. In fact, I would even say that Psychic with Life Orb is the superior set, as this is an offensive metagame.

tldr: Swoobat is a bit better as a sweeper than Persian, and an underrated threat in general. It sets up easier, is better vs bulkier opponents, and is more versatile.

All very good points the only thing i find disagreeable is setting up easily on Gourgeist (presumably super) since to my knowledge most run Shadow Sneak which even with 0 investment is a 2HKO and with full HP investment can take a life orb air slash before a CM

Still i agree 100% with this post

 

[MZ]

All very good points the only thing i find disagreeable is setting up easily on Gourgeist (presumably super) since to my knowledge most run Shadow Sneak which even with 0 investment is a 2HKO and with full HP investment can take a life orb air slash before a CM

Still i agree 100% with this post

Most don't run shadow sneak, although foul play is annoying. That being said, they're both not good right now but Persian's immediate power in regular situations versus things like Rapidash make it better and I think the ranks are fine

 

[ManOfMany]

Most don't run shadow sneak, although foul play is annoying. That being said, they're both not good right now but Persian's immediate power in regular situations versus things like Rapidash make it better and I think the ranks are fine

I thought the same thing originally, but then I realized that Swoobat can also run a set of Calm Mind/Psychic/Air Slash/Heat Wave with Life Orb that has MORE immediate power than Persian, and is essentially the same kind of set as Persian's Nasty Plot + 3 attacks. Stored Power is amazing, yes, after a boost, but Psychic is definitely a viable option especially since it deals with offensive teams better. This just proves that Swoobat can outclass Persian at its own set while having the versatility to run other sets.

Foul Play is fairly annoying (0 Atk Gourgeist-Super Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swoobat: 102-120 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO) but is manageable, and I forgot to mention other pokemon Swoobat sets up on such as Poliwrath and Tank Torterra.

Here are some calcs of immediate power:
252 SpA Life Orb Swoobat Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 164-192 (62.8 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Persian Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Raichu: 146-173 (55.9 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Technician Persian Hidden Power Water vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 198-234 (73 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Swoobat Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 164-192 (60.5 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Cheryl.]

Here we go. Stoutland to A rank. why because with a band strapped on it wallbreaks through things like tissue paper. Return even hits ghost types like Missy. it has superpower for steel and rock types and well thats all u need really . He can also a sand rush set with baby hippo mitigating his average speed; youll need to run crunch for ghosts though. There ARE some faults to mutt tho. He has trouble with steel and rock types and has average speed if no sand rush, but all in all Stoutland is better than A- rank and should be A ranked

 

[MaroGod]

Here we go. Stoutland to A rank. why because with a band strapped on it wallbreaks through things like tissue paper. Return even hits ghost types like Missy. it has superpower for steel and rock types and well thats all u need really . He can also a sand rush set with baby hippo mitigating his average speed; youll need to run crunch for ghosts though. There ARE some faults to mutt tho. He has trouble with steel and rock types and has average speed if no sand rush, but all in all Stoutland is better than A- rank and should be A ranked

There is no denying stoutlands power but it has competition with the already A rank mons in Sawsbuck and Ursaring

Sawsbuck also abusing a weather (Sun) and access to Swords dance and a nice duel stab with its Normal/grass while Ursaring can double its speed with toxic orb and quick feet allowing it to use Facade at full power and having Amazing attack which can be further boosted with SD also having coverage moves in CC and Crunch

Stoutland is an amazing mon and A- is still a great rank for it at this point.

 

[tmacbalanced]

There is no denying stoutlands power but it has competition with the already A rank mons in Sawsbuck and Ursaring

Sawsbuck also abusing a weather (Sun) and access to Swords dance and a nice duel stab with its Normal/grass while Ursaring can double its speed with toxic orb and quick feet allowing it to use Facade at full power and having Amazing attack which can be further boosted with SD also having coverage moves in CC and Crunch

Stoutland is an amazing mon and A- is still a great rank for it at this point.

Ursaring doesn't get it's speed doubled. It get multiplied by 1.5.

 

[Raiza]

I think Stoutland should go to A. First of all it can be splashed on various teams. It can fit on sand teams with Hippopotas and run Sand Rush, to tear apart offensive teams that don't carry a Ghost-type. Misdreavus ran out of favour lately especially on offensive teams, though it can be caught off guard anyway by Crunch and Will-O-Wisp can be taken in advantage by Stoutland with Facade, the same applies to others such as Gourgeist. The interesting part about Stoutland though is about the Scrappy sets: Scrappy allows it to basically mindlessly spam Return. Most Ghost-types anyway are slow, for example Gourgeist and most Misdreavus, as like everyone runs defensive as this point, so they cant stop a Choice Band set, which can basically at least KO one Pokemon on the opposing team, counting it also has OK bulk and the only viable Fighting-types are literally 3, and one of these three, Monferno, is rarely seen anyway. Another set got brought up during PUPL, which is the Choice Scarf. This set I tried got innovated by friend Anty , and is so good on offensive teams especially because most people don't expect it, it can pass through most faster Pokemon and common checks such as Floatzel, Jumpluff, and Simipour, with little prior damage, counting it can run Adamant and still outspeed them. It can also work kinda as a revengekiller and most of the times it is able to clean the opposing team, Facade is also great against Gourgeist-Super, which one of the few things that stop it.
It has enough traits to be preferred over its counterparts Sawsbuck and Ursaring.

 

[Magnemite]

Rotom-F from A to A-
Stoutland from A- to A
Aurorus from A- to B+
Clefairy from B+ to A-
Murkrow from B to B-
Simisage from B to B+
Frogadier from B- to C+
Gabite from B- to B
Kingler from B- to C+
Metang from B- to C+
Vullaby from B- to C+
Quilladin from C+ to B-
Seviper from C to C-

Not posting reasoning this time because you can always ask me and I have to eat dinner (read: I'm lazy, no h8 pls)

 

[g]

Posting reasonings for relevant changes

Rotom-F is not as effective anymore as a Starter because it is easy to wear down with its SR weakness (meaning carracosta is a threat quickly)and Pokemon such as Piloswine are common. Non choice Scarf still loses to Grumpig and Clefairy for example and is generally a bit too slow even tho beating Roselia+Poli is sick. Most controversial change but its OK.

Stoutland is also pretty effective with Scrappy AND sand rush and both Scarf and CB sets are super scary for a lot of teams. I mean this is also arguable I guess since Ursaring exists but Stoutland has a lot more staying power and its niche on Sand (good because beats sun and rain) gives it a place

Aurorus is sort of outdone as an ice type by Rotom-F and Regice and Piloswine walls it too easily and is super popular. Also struggles with the common Grumpig and is pretty slow which sucks. sash sets are also easy to wall.

Clefairy walls a very big portion of the metagame with spdef and is scary as shit with cm. Pretty awesome Pokemon and lots of utility with SR twave etc. Broken

Murkrow is murkrow and Pawniard is generally a better choice as an offensive Dark type as is mightyena and kadabra is better at suicide twaving too I guess. Also zero bulk and dies ultra fast. So being ranked with stuff like marowak and monferno makes more sense due to its limited niche

Simisage is a great wall breaker and with Knock Off + Seed Bomb + Gunk shot its really hard not to cripple something. Also pretty fast which is cool and NP is OK. Being ranked same as Simisear makes more sense

Gabite has good typing to check popular stuff (that isn't Piloswine) and takes on electric types without hp ice well + extremely reliable rocker

Also lots moved from b- because if was inflated

 

[tmacbalanced]

Edit: Sorry about the Rotom-F thing, I misread what Galbia. Thanks to Megazard Z for pointing this out to me.
Also, how is Aurorus outdone as an ice type by anyone but Piloswine? Aurorus is good against sun, rain, leads, etc. That's golden. And of course it's going to get walled by Piloswine, Piloswine has eviolite bulk, without it:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's the tank version. Here's the speedy version:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Clefairy just doesn't seem too bulky to me as Arbok, Pawniard, & a few other pokemon can do some nice damage to it. & those pokemon are seen a lot on either ladder or in competitive battles. Taunt also puts a hard stop on Clefairy as well as knock off. I just don't see it being all that good when I see that people just steam roll over it consistently/constantly.
I feel that other changes should of been made, I've seen a few posts that gave bigger reasons than Galbia's & mine put together.
Edit: As for Clefairy, I just don't see it being too good of a wall because,
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
& there's a few other pokemon that can do good damage to Clefairy as well that don't super effective STAB. I mean, even Galbia said that Simisage runs gunk shot which is good against Clefairy. Also, without eviolite, it won't be taking the hits it could've taken before so easily either.
252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Just in case if you're wondering how a physical attacker would do against Clefairy.
There are more calcs too that show that Clefairy isn't all that great in taking hits.

 

[g]

Edit: Sorry about the Rotom-F thing, I misread what Galbia. Thanks to Megazard Z for pointing this out to me.
Also, how is Aurorus outdone as an ice type by anyone but Piloswine? Aurorus is good against sun, rain, leads, etc. That's golden. And of course it's going to get walled by Piloswine, Piloswine has eviolite bulk, without it:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (46 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's the tank version. Here's the speedy version:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Piloswine: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Clefairy just doesn't seem too bulky to me as Arbok, Pawniard, & a few other pokemon can do some nice damage to it. & those pokemon are seen a lot on either ladder or in competitive battles. Taunt also puts a hard stop on Clefairy as well as knock off. I just don't see it being all that good when I see that people just steam roll over it consistently/constantly.
I feel that other changes should of been made, I've seen a few posts that gave bigger reasons than Galbia's & mine put together.
Edit: As for Clefairy, I just don't see it being too good of a wall because,
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 181-214 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
& there's a few other pokemon that can do good damage to Clefairy as well that don't super effective STAB. I mean, even Galbia said that Simisage runs gunk shot which is good against Clefairy. Also, without eviolite, it won't be taking the hits it could've taken before so easily either.
252+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 141-166 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Just in case if you're wondering how a physical attacker would do against Clefairy.
There are more calcs too that show that Clefairy isn't all that great in taking hits.

You calced Simipour against Eviolite less Clefairy so that part is a bit off and yes Clefairy is a bit one dimensional regarding taking hits since it can reliably stomach them from one side at a time and that is why it is A- (Grumpig and Hypno also have this very flaw and are still good). What makes Clefairy great is its slew of support options ranging from Thunder Wave to Knock Off to Stealth Rock that coupled with good bulk on one side make it a great choice for special walling. Of course it needs support to handle Roselia and other Poisons and Steel types (that don't like switching into Thunder Wave or Knock Off at all sans Roselia for the former and Shed Skin Arbok which is bad) but is still effective and not supposed to wall them in the first place. I also don't really agre like you with Aurorus dropping even just because of its Choice Scarf set which does well against many teams but most of the time Regice outdoes it offensively and Piloswine in Stealth Rock setting

 

[MaroGod]

Simisage to A-

Simisage is very unique for grass types having an unbelievable amount of coverage and support moves to choose from Giga Drain,Leaf Storm,Seed bomb,Gunk Shot,Knock off,Super Power,Low kick,Acrobatics,Rock slide,Hidden Power and thats just the attacking moves and with base 98 attacking stats they can put a dent in any team

Simisage is the meaning of Glass Cannon piss poor defenses with meh Hp but the amount of power it can dish out is astonishing able equipped a Life orb,Scarf,Specs and Band being able to abuse all these offensive itmes in some way with a choice of so many moves is amazing. Hell with a LO you can run Nasty plot 3 attacks and put a massive dent and some Kos under your belt with this thing.

Damage Calcs

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 205-244 (59.5 - 70.9%)
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 322-380 (88.4 - 104.3%)
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 166-198 (51.2 - 61.1%)
4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 151-179 (45.2 - 53.5%)
252 Atk Life Orb Simisage Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 411-484 (126.8 - 149.3%)
4 SpA Life Orb Simisage Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 238-281 (73.6 - 86.9%)

Simisage downsides are both its speed and frailty:
Speed
Simisage has an amazing 101 speed stat but this is both a gift and a curse while being key to its offensive presence it is also hampered when there are so many Scarfed mons (most have a super effective STAB) Priority and even quicker mons that can OHKO sage with a powerful coverage move or there STAB Examples such as Rapidash,Zebstrika,Floatzel and jumpluff being a few
Frail
Simisage has 75/63/63 which is piss poor this thing is terrified of priority with the exception being aqua jet,Poliwrath V-Wave and Machoke Bullet Punch. Priority mons such as pawniard,Mightyena,Piloswine,Linoone,Dusknoir although not OHKO (yes even max attack adamant ice shard cant kill at max hp) they all do over half or damn near 85%. Simisage can rarely come in on hits even resisted moves which causes it to both be delicate and scary to switch

Priority damage Calcs

Hide

252+ Atk Life Orb Mightyena Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 211-250 (72.5 - 85.9%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%)
252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 157-186 (53.9 - 63.9%)
252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Simisage: 139-165 (47.7 - 56.7%) With CB (72.1 - 84.8%)

Even with its diadvantiges its an amazing powerful mon that is worthy of a rank up
Ps:Thanks to Anty for teaching me how to use Show/Hide

 

[Anty]

Ok biggish post here so im not going to go too in depth

B- to C+
Heatmor - this thing recieves way too much competition in the tier to be very effective rn. Currently both rapidash and ninetales are amazing rn and have more utility as fire types, nasty plot + bulka and speed + recovery. Also it receives a ton of competition from simisear, its only real niche being sucker punch however has a LOT less speed, which is surprisingly hard to fit onto a team just bc ninetales and rap are so much easier to fit on due to the utility they provide.

Kingler - similar to heatmor, the agility set is just plane outclassed by barbaracle (pre-boost power is a bad niche for a set up mon). Choice band and scarf sets are also fairly niche, as scarf is still slow so simipour does this a lot better (kingler has a niche w/ power + being physical). The CB set is the best imo but still receives competition from basc that has priority, however kingler has stronger non-stabs which means it can more easily spam powerful moves to get rid of water resists which is a c+ niche imo.

Marowak - There are too many better rockers in the tier for me to even consider using this, even though pilo/tort/we dont have the same amount of strength, they have more important utility like walling pokes such as zebby/pawn as well as other stuff like priority/recovery, whereas marowak is stuck at a terrible speed tier meaning offensive teams arent finding difficulties, and most balance teams are running stuff like tort that are decent checks.

Rampardos - this like marowak has got too-slow-to-be-worth-using syndrome. Like the lead rock set is cute but all u get is nicer matchup vs 2 mons whereas leads like golem/monferno have a lot more +'s and arent only useful for counter teaming. the wallbreaker set is again not great as we have better ones like stoutland and simipour, although they have to predict more, they have more speed and or bulk.

C+ to C

Carbink - Since any rock set is just outclassed im just going to be focussed on the cm set which isnt great. Firstly defensive teams arent very good rn (lol at galbias post) which directly threatens its viability, and now weakness to grass and rock is really starting to hurt it + mono coverage isnt great, and cm clef and duosion are getting more usage bc they can run more coverage and arent as weak to as much. In fact the rise of duosion i would argue is enough to drop it just bc it is so good at setting up on pokemon like poli

Drifblim - Both its sets are terribly weak as special one can only do 70% to stoutland ffs while also struggling to set up bc ghost/flying is a bad typing meaning most mons carry coverage to hurt you. Also the physical set cannot boost and relies on flying STAB which is unreliable as rock/electric types are decently common, and often all it ends up doing is spamming willo which missy can do instead. Add on stealth rock weakness along with it being revenge killed by half of a ranks show its not great in this meta

Flareon - see: ramp/marow. It is so hard to find an actual team where this fits better than rapidash (other than trick room lol).

Frogadier - yes this just went down but that was a long awaited drop. The only reason to use this over simipour is toxic spikes, which is incredibly niche bc simi uses that slot to bop rose/licki/etc and even if simi got tspikes it wouldnt use it as it can just KO their team instead of setting up..

There are others which i could see going down (eg purugly) but i know there are a lot of possible drops so after all these drops i might go and nom more, as it will make the standards for each tier a lot clearer

 

[MZ]

Roselia to A+
I mean obviously this won't happen since the council likes it in S (even before posting this it was already shot down but lol someone has to represent all of the people who complain about this), but since almost nobody else does might as well post about this. Rose is good. Rose spikes. Rose is a solid counter to a lot of good Pokemon. Toxic Spikes are very good. That's basically why it's up there. My issue with rose is that the tier is going over to very strong wallbreakers, things that can absolutely destroy it, and most teams have 2-3 things that absolutely body it. Stoutland, Machoke, Arbok and Rapidash have all been growing in popularity, things run Knock Off more like Simipour, and overall Rose isn't this amazing blanket check anymore. It isn't even this amazing Electric counter because they can all just Volt Switch out on it easily. Rose is killed or pivoted out on by the majority of the A ranks and that has to mean something. Even the shit that it beats has been dropping in popularity like Tangela. Nobody is saying it isn't good, but the way so many attackers can easily 1-2HKO Roselia and in such an offensive metagame the fact that it's S rank is a little ridiculous. And yes, my argument basically comes down to pretty much everything in the tier bonks it. Hell, even Poliwrath doesnt need it too weakened to kill it.

Also if you leave it S then do something about how whenever people ask the room "roselia is S rank?" everybody says "eh that's debatable nobody really agrees with that but we cant change" because right now people are basically telling new users that rose shouldnt be S rank

Solrock to B-
Why isn't this B- again ?_? It counters Stoutland for one, making it really nice to fit on teams (until they run crunch again). It basically functions as this cool Pokemon that stops some of the strong wall breakers that have been getting popular because of how they can bonk Rose. Wisp makes it legit annoying for most things to switch into it, it has Psychic STAB to not be spikes fodder, can baton pass for momentum, or even set TR/Screens/Sun if you really wanted to I suppose. No it's not god, but it has a solid place on teams that don't want to get bopped by stout/arbok/golem/whoever

edit: If we remove all the shit like flareon and frogadier from C+ then we can leave solrock, it's better than all that stuff now but we could just fix the rank too

Kricketune to C
Leavanny is so much better than this

Meowstic-M to C+
I'm a little iffy on this one but I've tried doing teams with stuff like Linoone and Barbaracle and using memento is just so much better. Not too concerned on what happens to this one, just a thought

Whirlipede to B-
Venipede is so much better because of the shit it outspeeds. You're running Whirl for extra bulk on an unsashed NFE suicide lead that probably won't come into play at all, whereas venipede is a much more reliable suicide spiker. They work against the same types of teams but Venipede works against more stuff, and should be higher than whirl imo.

Also yes to all of Anty's stuff and Dundies' (a little iffy on the Arbok nom though, was with it but now I'm not sure)

 

[Raiza]

Here I come too, I will only post about nomination I'm iffy about or shaky ones. The most controversial for me is the Arbok one. I think B+ fits perfectly there, it can check Grass-types, but when I find it against it's so easily shut down that my opponent just uses it as a sleep fodder for Roselia most of the time. In fact, it's easily worn down, being susceptible to entry hazard bc it lacks any recovery and statuses especially burn which makes it borderline useless. I could see it rising if the speed tier of offensive threats was much lower, as Sucker Punch isn't strong enough to KO healthy enough faster threats, and its specially defensive bulk is so pitiful that it gets like 1HKO'd by Simipour Hydro Pump, I mean come on it struggles even with things such as Servine if it isn't at really high health.

Another nomination I'm kinda against is the Meowstic-M one. Even with the departure of shellpass, I think it can still provide valuable support to a team. Thunder Wave along with Prankster is able to shut down many common threats, and Screens further support teammates, allowing them to find way more set up opportunities, also Memento makes a threat more easily to handle if the opponent switches, which is obvious who would keep a Pokemon affected by Memento on the field lol, while screen keep it constantly hard to bring it down. I've also had the opportunity to try Meowstic-M on a QuiverPass and it performed decently, even though of course the outcomes weren't as good as when using SmashPass. I don't really care about this though, so you can still drop it.

 

[tmacbalanced]

You calced Simipour against Eviolite less Clefairy so that part is a bit off and yes Clefairy is a bit one dimensional regarding taking hits since it can reliably stomach them from one side at a time and that is why it is A- (Grumpig and Hypno also have this very flaw and are still good). What makes Clefairy great is its slew of support options ranging from Thunder Wave to Knock Off to Stealth Rock that coupled with good bulk on one side make it a great choice for special walling. Of course it needs support to handle Roselia and other Poisons and Steel types (that don't like switching into Thunder Wave or Knock Off at all sans Roselia for the former and Shed Skin Arbok which is bad) but is still effective and not supposed to wall them in the first place. I also don't really agre like you with Aurorus dropping even just because of its Choice Scarf set which does well against many teams but most of the time Regice outdoes it offensively and Piloswine in Stealth Rock setting

No I didn't calc Simipour's move wrong. He has knock off. Which is why I included stealth rock damage in there. I just feel that maybe A- is a bit much for Clefairy. I'll admit that soft-boiled is a great move for Clefairy though as it allows it to stay in the game longer.
As for the Aurorus complaint, Regice doesn't get used as much from what I've seen but Aurorus has & for good reasons, HO weather & HO balanced teams. True, Regice can tank better than Aurorus & can outspeed the scarf set with rock polish, but it doesn't have snow warning for it's ability. If HO teams didn't gain such immediate momentum, I would say Regice is a bit better than Aurorus against the meta.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Solrock to B-
Why isn't this B- again ?_? It counters Stoutland for one, making it really nice to fit on teams (until they run crunch again). It basically functions as this cool Pokemon that stops some of the strong wall breakers that have been getting popular because of how they can bonk Rose. Wisp makes it legit annoying for most things to switch into it, it has Psychic STAB to not be spikes fodder, can baton pass for momentum, or even set TR/Screens/Sun if you really wanted to I suppose. No it's not god, but it has a solid place on teams that don't want to get bopped by stout/arbok/golem/whoever

PU boTTT:Stoutlands main sets are Frustration/Superpower/Crunch/Play Rough if a sand sweeper or Frustration/Superpower/Pursuit/Facade or Play Rough if a Scrappy Wallbreaker with Choice Band, Life Orb, or Silk Scarf.
Well, going by this, pursuit is ran which would do an okay amount of damage to Solrock since it is super effective. I think people are running crunch more though, you can some other replies on this thread about that too. Maybe people are running crunch due to Solrock. I guess Solrock should be B- if people already consider it a threat.

 

[MZ]

PU boTTT:Stoutlands main sets are Frustration/Superpower/Crunch/Play Rough if a sand sweeper or Frustration/Superpower/Pursuit/Facade or Play Rough if a Scrappy Wallbreaker with Choice Band, Life Orb, or Silk Scarf.
Well, going by this, pursuit is ran which would do an okay amount of damage to Solrock since it is super effective. I think people are running crunch more though, you can some other replies on this thread about that too. Maybe people are running crunch due to Solrock. I guess Solrock should be B- if people already consider it a threat.

Nobody is running crunch, unless they're building vs me in PUPL :^) seriously though it just isn't run on scrappy stout. And pursuit does so little if rock doesn't switch that solrock is still a counter so...?