Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

Raiza

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Electabuzz from C+ to B-/B
I've had the occasion to try out Electabuzz in the past days this week and it didn't disappoint, and seeing as how other users also find it good in this metagame, it's time for it to rise. I was really surprised to see Electabuzz in C+, as it's way better than other Pokemon in the same category, and I would go as far as saying that it is even better by some Pokemon in B- if taken their overall usefulness in their own roles. While it may look like Electabuzz is outshined by other Electric-types such as Rotom-F and Zebstrika, it still manages to get for itself some valid niches that make it unique. While it is slower than Zebstrika, Electabuzz hits for about the same damages without having to run a boosting item, but also carries access to coverage options such as Focus Blast, which make the option of running a Choice Scarf viable on it, therefore the Speed gap evens out, while Electabuzz is more versatile being able to also work as a revengekiller. Otherwise, if not running a Choice Scarf, it still fares high Speed for the tier, which allows it to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame, while access to Eviolite and ok special bulk make it reasonably bulky, and along with its ability Vital Spirit, it can become a more reliable check to popular offensive picks such as Jumpluff, Rotom-F, and also other strong attackers such as Choice Scarf Simipour and Floatzel if at a decent amount of HP.
 
Hi!

--> B
So I've been using Quilladin a bit lately and found how good it is vs common playstyles, mainly the offensive set with Zen Headbutt and Taunt.
Quilladin @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Seed Bomb
- Zen Headbutt / Drain Punch
- Spikes
- Taunt

So with this set you have enough Speed for basically all of the most common leads, mainly Golem, Stunfisk, and Roselia, and you can Taunt them and start to stack Spikes. In addition to this, Quilladin is also the best Roselia counter in the tier with the help of Bulletproof (also taking Shadow Balls from stuff like Misdreavus and Taunting to avoid Will-O-Wisp) which is really nice since it can get the edge in spikestack wars. So while Taunt forces a bunch of switches, Spikes is able to punish the foe for switching, which can really wear teams down, and Taunt can even prevent Defog, keeping the hazards on the field. Now while I find it a bit underwhelming in an offensive meta like this, defensive Quilladin is still very viable and is a great check to a lot of physical attackers like Golem, physical Floatzel, and Stoutland. Additionally, Drain Punch is able to OHKO Pawniard with an Adamant nature, so you're not setup fodder for big threats like that.

Also for the record I agree with moving Electabuzz up, as it's really nice as a Rotom-F check and can take on birds like Dodrio, Jumpluff, etc. really well, making it a great fit on webs too.

:toast:
 
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Electabuzz from C+ to B-/B
I've had the occasion to try out Electabuzz in the past days this week and it didn't disappoint, and seeing as how other users also find it good in this metagame, it's time for it to rise. I was really surprised to see Electabuzz in C+, as it's way better than other Pokemon in the same category, and I would go as far as saying that it is even better by some Pokemon in B- if taken their overall usefulness in their own roles. While it may look like Electabuzz is outshined by other Electric-types such as Rotom-F and Zebstrika, it still manages to get for itself some valid niches that make it unique. While it is slower than Zebstrika, Electabuzz hits for about the same damages without having to run a boosting item, but also carries access to coverage options such as Focus Blast, which make the option of running a Choice Scarf viable on it, therefore the Speed gap evens out, while Electabuzz is more versatile being able to also work as a revengekiller. Otherwise, if not running a Choice Scarf, it still fares high Speed for the tier, which allows it to outspeed most of the unboosted metagame, while access to Eviolite and ok special bulk make it reasonably bulky, and along with its ability Vital Spirit, it can become a more reliable check to popular offensive picks such as Jumpluff, Rotom-F, and also other strong attackers such as Choice Scarf Simipour and Floatzel if at a decent amount of HP.
I totally agree with this.Ive been using this quite a bit and i got to say i love it.It serves as a good electric check that can catch off guard threats such as gabite with ice punch(i had that a couple of times),can beat floatzel.I love it with Sticky Web because it mitigates the problem of its mediocre speed.Its definetily better than some stuff in B- even in B and more viable.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Got a controversial nom:



Roselia to S

I have been using Rose a lot recently after the January shifts, and it's been performing quite amazingly as one of the best hazard setters for offense currently. Since the banning of two of it's most prominent checks in Exeguttor and Vigoroth, and one of the best forms of hazard removal in Pelipper that left for NU, I believe Roselia has a much easier time setting up hazards and keeping them on the field through out the match. The decline of it's other check in Bouffalant also helps it tremendously, as it can Sleep Powder more frequently, letting it set up much more easily. It' also one of the best checks to Floatzel in the metagame right now, as it can live an Ice Beam and Ice Punch at full health, and be able to either do a lot of damage with Giga Drain, or put it to sleep. It is weak to some good mons like Rotom-F and Zebstrika, but I find Roselia to be one of the meta's most influential mons currenlty especially that offense it still the preferred style (although it did decease a bit thanks to Audino returning) and it's rank should reflect that.
 

Anty

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Haven't posted in here in a while...

Rotom-F to S
I honeslty feel like this could be the best Pokemon in the metagame, as it is one of the hardest Pokemon to prepare for as you cannot slap one mon on your team and not be weak to rotom. This reminds me of Floatzel, as that can run two different sets and between them, don't share a counter, however, alone, both Floatzel's sets can easily be stopped, but this isn't the same on each of Rotom's sets, as for example, it can runs Trick to beat Audino, or Life Orb to 2HKO Camerupt, and even substitute + will-o-wisp can screw over possible checks like Grumpig. Most people's methods to checking Rotom-f is running Grumpig or Probopass and hope that between them and faster mons Rotom can be stopped, but very rarely are those mons actually able to stay healthy throughout the match in order to effectively check it. More than often Rotom-f will be able to whittle them down and end up healthy enough to still be a threat. Sub rotom is so good at this as its bulk is decently high, and with will-o-wisp it makes every physical mon and defensive pokemon sub fodder. Scarf Rotom is ridiculously pressuring for any offensive team as the only real reliable stop to its volt switches are seaking and camerupt, neither of which are particularly good mons, and outside of that, Rotom will almost always get momentum as players generally wont risk their Stunfisk/Gabite rather go into something like grumpig, as the risk outweighs the reward. Overall Rotom-f has a huge effect on every playstyle and will almost always perform making it a very defining Pokemon in the metagame.

Zebstrika to A
This just doesn't feel like a top 5 (or 10 for that matter) mon anymore due to the way the metagame has shaped and become very harsh towards it. Players simply don't not run electric-type checks. Stunfisk is everywhere, and teams without it will be running something like a Golem or Roselia or Camerupt. I think its fair enough to say that Zebstrika is mainly ranked so high due to its strong matchup vs offensive teams, and though offensive teams are still common and good right now, I have noticed a rise in Stunfisk balance teams (and teams have generally been more balanced), and even offensive teams are working in checks better. If the opponent has a Stunfisk (or ground Pokemon that walls it), Zebby won't be doing much work without a Trapinch to threaten them, and even if the opp is running Roselia or Audino, the most Zebby is going to do is Volt Switch out and gaining momentum. As for its matchup vs offensive teams, more and more players are running specially bulky pivots like AV Bouff and Grumpig which means it can no longer gain momentum and cripple the opponents team and possibly sweep, but just the former, which isn't enough to keep it a+. Competition for its team slot has never been higher with Pokemon like Electrode and Rotom-f gaining popularity. Although the hype about Electrode has died down since the hype of chatot also has, and defensive Roselia has gotten better (that prolly should get demoted imho), Rotom-f (as explained earlier) is amazing right now, and the scarf variant is even more threatening to offensive teams due its Ice secondary STAB and with scarf it can hit hard and outspeed threats like SS Gorebyss (scarf rotom is only like 5-10% less weaker than LO zebby). Zebby just isn't the threat that it used to be :(.

Stunfisk to A+
This I feel is long overdue, but now eggy is gone I will finally nom it. For a while now Stunfisk has risen and become the primary physical wall in the tier, as it can hard counter common mons like Zebstrika, and can blanket check so many physical attackers like Dodrio, Monferno, and Pawniard. Most people disagreeing with this nomination do so because they feel like it gets warn down very quickly, and although it does get warn down, in doing so it will often wear down the offensive mons it needs to and set up Stealth Rocks, and for the record, it isn't meant to be able to counter an overload of physical attackers so just because between SD Monferno and CB Dodrio it dies, doesn't mean it hasn't done its job. Most games it will be able to pick out and counter a specific threat, and even if the opponent has two threats it would like to check and cant, Stunfisk nearly always has at least a teammate to put pressure on those mons (or audino to wishpass). The next main counter argument is that it is passive so can be taken advantage of by mons like Rotom-f and Roselia. Im not going to cherry pick this as Roselia can freely Spike on it and Rotom-f can Substitute on non Rock Tomb variants (which is a really cool move on it), but with moves like Thunder Wave there aren't a load of mons which can set up on it (ofc there are mons to force it out and set up - that is the same with every mon in the tier - at least fisk can live an unboosted hit from for example huntail). This I feel is where people draw the line, however I dont think that is enough to stop it from going up due to the sheer amount it can wall, and just being added to a team, that team has a much easier time vs many top tier threats as mentioned earlier.

Other than that I like how the VR is looking rn
 
Haven't posted in here in a while...

Rotom-F to S
I honeslty feel like this could be the best Pokemon in the metagame, as it is one of the hardest Pokemon to prepare for as you cannot slap one mon on your team and not be weak to rotom. This reminds me of Floatzel, as that can run two different sets and between them, don't share a counter, however, alone, both Floatzel's sets can easily be stopped, but this isn't the same on each of Rotom's sets, as for example, it can runs Trick to beat Audino, or Life Orb to 2HKO Camerupt, and even substitute + will-o-wisp can screw over possible checks like Grumpig. Most people's methods to checking Rotom-f is running Grumpig or Probopass and hope that between them and faster mons Rotom can be stopped, but very rarely are those mons actually able to stay healthy throughout the match in order to effectively check it. More than often Rotom-f will be able to whittle them down and end up healthy enough to still be a threat. Sub rotom is so good at this as its bulk is decently high, and with will-o-wisp it makes every physical mon and defensive pokemon sub fodder. Scarf Rotom is ridiculously pressuring for any offensive team as the only real reliable stop to its volt switches are seaking and camerupt, neither of which are particularly good mons, and outside of that, Rotom will almost always get momentum as players generally wont risk their Stunfisk/Gabite rather go into something like grumpig, as the risk outweighs the reward. Overall Rotom-f has a huge effect on every playstyle and will almost always perform making it a very defining Pokemon in the metagame.

Zebstrika to A
This just doesn't feel like a top 5 (or 10 for that matter) mon anymore due to the way the metagame has shaped and become very harsh towards it. Players simply don't not run electric-type checks. Stunfisk is everywhere, and teams without it will be running something like a Golem or Roselia or Camerupt. I think its fair enough to say that Zebstrika is mainly ranked so high due to its strong matchup vs offensive teams, and though offensive teams are still common and good right now, I have noticed a rise in Stunfisk balance teams (and teams have generally been more balanced), and even offensive teams are working in checks better. If the opponent has a Stunfisk (or ground Pokemon that walls it), Zebby won't be doing much work without a Trapinch to threaten them, and even if the opp is running Roselia or Audino, the most Zebby is going to do is Volt Switch out and gaining momentum. As for its matchup vs offensive teams, more and more players are running specially bulky pivots like AV Bouff and Grumpig which means it can no longer gain momentum and cripple the opponents team and possibly sweep, but just the former, which isn't enough to keep it a+. Competition for its team slot has never been higher with Pokemon like Electrode and Rotom-f gaining popularity. Although the hype about Electrode has died down since the hype of chatot also has, and defensive Roselia has gotten better (that prolly should get demoted imho), Rotom-f (as explained earlier) is amazing right now, and the scarf variant is even more threatening to offensive teams due its Ice secondary STAB and with scarf it can hit hard and outspeed threats like SS Gorebyss (scarf rotom is only like 5-10% less weaker than LO zebby). Zebby just isn't the threat that it used to be :(.

Stunfisk to A+
This I feel is long overdue, but now eggy is gone I will finally nom it. For a while now Stunfisk has risen and become the primary physical wall in the tier, as it can hard counter common mons like Zebstrika, and can blanket check so many physical attackers like Dodrio, Monferno, and Pawniard. Most people disagreeing with this nomination do so because they feel like it gets warn down very quickly, and although it does get warn down, in doing so it will often wear down the offensive mons it needs to and set up Stealth Rocks, and for the record, it isn't meant to be able to counter an overload of physical attackers so just because between SD Monferno and CB Dodrio it dies, doesn't mean it hasn't done its job. Most games it will be able to pick out and counter a specific threat, and even if the opponent has two threats it would like to check and cant, Stunfisk nearly always has at least a teammate to put pressure on those mons (or audino to wishpass). The next main counter argument is that it is passive so can be taken advantage of by mons like Rotom-f and Roselia. Im not going to cherry pick this as Roselia can freely Spike on it and Rotom-f can Substitute on non Rock Tomb variants (which is a really cool move on it), but with moves like Thunder Wave there aren't a load of mons which can set up on it (ofc there are mons to force it out and set up - that is the same with every mon in the tier - at least fisk can live an unboosted hit from for example huntail). This I feel is where people draw the line, however I dont think that is enough to stop it from going up due to the sheer amount it can wall, and just being added to a team, that team has a much easier time vs many top tier threats as mentioned earlier.

Other than that I like how the VR is looking rn
I completely agree with your argument for Rotom-F to S. It is in my opinion the best mon in the meta right now. It provides ridiculous offensive pressure and you have to play guessing games with the set it's running as well as the move it's going for often times. The mons that can handle it decently (Audino, Grumpig, Probopass) get volt switched on and pressured easily by a physically offensive teammate or mons like seaking get trashed by the sub will-o set. This mon is definitely deserving of S because of how incredibly meta defining it is in terms of playstyles too. I was talking to melon about this in chat not too long ago and he mentioned the best way to handle it is to get up rocks immediately to start pressuring it right away so it doesnt get to punish you without taking 25% first. This got me thinking about the huge Stealth Rocker popularity shift to Golem. In order to pressure rotom, first turn rocks has become increasingly more important for every team. I feel as though this shift from Stunfisk->Golem has been very much due to rotom's presence on teams. Because of this, the offensive playstyle has only benefited and I feel as though balance as taken a hit from the transition. So in terms of the influence Rotom has on playstyle, I definitely support this thing going to the top of S.

I have used zebstrika off and on since eggy/vig ban and I haven't noticed it being any worse to be honest. I understand that rotom is giving it some typing conflict as I can see why someone would want to choose rotom over Zeb as his electric type (beating stunfisk and Rose as well as being a terrible nuisance with sub wow). However, I still think Zeb has its merits in being able to revenge floatzel without taking huge damage from rocks or being choice locked. Also serving as a sleep immunity and jumpluff counter is really important still because with the loss of Vig, the pressure on Vullaby as a sleep immunity is through the roof. I still see it as an A+ mon though and my stunfisk explanation below probably has something to do with it.

I disagree with this nom for a couple reasons. While Eggy is gone and no longer a threat to stunfisk, Roselia has only gotten better and taken Eggy's place as a special water resist on teams of all playstyles. Golem/Rotom combo has gotten way better and as this is something I see on so many competitive teams on ladder, I don't see Stunfisk as getting any better. Yes, it can handle a handful of scary physical threats in the tier, but physical waters and grasses (Leafeon specifically) have only become better and more popular due to peli leaving and golem becoming a staple mon on offense. The small handful of physical and electric mons it walls does not make up for its passiveness and team support required to handle the mons that can easily revenge/switch in on it. Lastly, the Piloswine meta is still very fresh in my mind and Stunfisk is not on par with the quality A+ rocker Pilo was. Stunfisk has problems handling the general offensive turn the meta has gone towards and it does not do what an A+ mon should be doing for a team. Maybe I have high expectations, but I just don't see Stunfisk doing what Pilo did as an A+ rocker (Getting up rocks very easily as well as offensively pressuring frail physical attackers and being able to take hits and fire back hard). Yes, they're completely different mons, but what Pilo did for offensive, Stunfisk does not do for balance.
 
Natu from C- to D
Electabuzz from C+ to B-
Mr. Mime from A- to A
Rotom-F from A+ to S
Stunfisk from A to A+
Golem from A to A+
Golduck from B to B+
Quilladin from B- to B
Zweilous from B- to C+
Lumineon from D to C-
Gothitelle from C- to D
Vanilluxe from C- to D

I moved Zebstrika lower in A+ but not to A

I didn't move Roselia to S because it hasn't reached near the high levels of usage and centralization of when it was S before; the meta just hasn't quite shifted back to it yet.

Discussion points:
Placement of other Electric-types (Electrode mainly) and Zebstrika itself.
Roselia
 
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MZ

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Golduck is seriously out of place in B+, easily the worst mon there and harder to put on a team than things like Gabite or Purugly left behind in B. Not sure where this nom came from but I really don't get it.
I wanna play more before fully backing the nom, but I think it might be time for Roselia to get back in S. It just checks pretty much the entire tier effectively combined with how incredibly good Tspikes are right now. It's definitely not at former levels thanks to being split between offensive and defensive sets and the rise in Ice-types but I think it might be enough to warrant a rise.
My list of offensive Electrics honestly wouldn't change much, I can't tell if people want trode to rise or drop but I don't really think it needs either?
My only other noms to add to the table would be bumping dusknoir to B rank potentially and dropping venipede, the former is really solid as a check to everything but Pawniard and now it has more slots and people realized sucker is good (not my innovation but I'll take it) and suicide spiking as a whole has definitely gotten worse and Venipede is just harder to use. If it goes down glalie could probably drop as well since i think they're about equal in how good they are. I'm going to make a longer NP post later but these suicide spikers just don't feel as good anymore, even with Pelipper gone

Edit @ ShuckleDeath: 220 sleep rose beats pawniard and machoke fairly reliably tho
 
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ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
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My Point of View


Roselia is a very good Mon. Her ability to check Water, Electric, Ground(if not fast Physically offensive), Rock(see former brackets), Grass and Fairy Types makes it an incredible addition to most teams. With multiple viable move sets and EV spread, it is also unpredictable. Roselia has been S Rank the majority of my time here in PU, as i started to get serious at Mons in the Kecleon, Tauros Meta, and it was S Rank for good reason. Poliwrath was one of the dominating threats, Pawnaird just Dropped making Hazard Stack not only Viable but very very good, Sometime later we Lost Poliwrath which to this day was the best Water check we've ever had, and waters ran rampant making Roselia just that much better. we had a very water heavy Meta with Mons Such as Floatzel, Simipour, The Shell Smashers until they got banned(Carracosta, Barbaracle), and so on, with Waters becoming so popular, fast Electric types such as Scarf Rotom-Frost, Zebstrika, and Raichu started to shine as well making Roselia even more of a Meta defining Splash-able blanket check. Sometime later and nearing the current meta we got some drops such as Exeggutor, Boffalant, and the returning Pawnaird all of which threatened Roselia and the first and latter almost single handily forcing her to run a fast offensive set. Mons such as Monferno, Rotom-Frost, Dodrio and Regice started gaining popularity and this really hurt Roselia. Dodrio falling in viabilty and the banning of Exeggcutor and Vigoroth no leave us in Debate of the Ranking of Roselia. I have now gone over the History of Roselia's Viability and Roles, as I know newer players wounder sometimes on why it was ever S Rank so i tried to explain it the best i could and as how I understand,and it also helps grasp where we are in the current meta.

I will now evaluate how Roselia compares to the elite members of the tier, AKA S and A+ Rank Pokemon.

S Ranks
  • Roselia doses a good job switching in on the Stab moves of Floatzel such as Hydro Pump, the lesser Seen Surf, Waterfall and Aqua Jet. It also switches in nicely on some coverage options such as Hidden Power Electric and Grass. Roselia does not like switching into Specs Ice Beam, LO Ice Beam+Taunt, and Banded Ice Punch. With a free switch in Standard Roselia beats every variant of Floatzel. Fast offensive Roselia is OHKOed by banded Ice Punch.
  • The only move Roselia likes switching in on is Scarf or Specs Thunderbolt. Blizzard OHKO's or 2HKO's every Variant of Roselia. offensive Rose Does a nice chunck of damage but never OHKO's with out a crit. Roselia does not like getting Tricked, does not like switching into a Will-O-Wisp than Blizzard or getting Volted on into Monferno, Stoutland, Mr.Mime, Grumpig, Pawnaird, Arbok, Jumpluff, Dodrio, you see a pattern here?

A+ Ranks
  • While Roselia does resist it's STABS in Close Combat and, Dynamic Punch(I know. I hate it to) it does Not beat Machoke 1v1(it can beat ResTalk with some luck) the fact is Leaf storm is doing a maximum of 65% than drop and Ice Punch which became the popular option since the loss of Pelipper, is getting a solid 2hko, a 98% chance with 128 def Roselia.
  • You have to run a minimum of 96 Def EVS to always avoid the OHKO from Banded Frustration. Bulky Offensive Roselia(248 HP, 252 SpAtt Modest) is always OHKOed that means no Offensive Roselia set can stand up to Stoutland's incredibly Spamable STAB's. While Stoutland Doesn't like switching in on Roselia it can on everything bar Sleep powder that is unless you carry Sleep Talk on Stoutland which is a viable filler move.
  • Pawnaird resits Roselia grass STABs and is Immune to Poison. While Pawn does have to watch out for Sleep Powder and Hidden Power Fighting, it is almost a guaranteed set up Opportunity for Pawnaird.
  • Rose can be used as a last ditch Jumpluff check. The problem is it's always a gamble unless your running an incredibly gimmicky Scarf set on Roselia Jumpluff will always out speed. Un-boosted Acrobatics Does not OHKO every Rose Variant but it 2HKO's every variant. Modest Sludge Bomb is not a sure fired OHKO on Jumpluff ether. All in All a poor match-up for Roselia.
  • While Psychic does not OHKO every Varaiant no Roselia Variant OHKO's in return. Offensive Grumpig has the match up, SpDef Grumpig has the match up. While Grumpig doesnt like being put to sleep or poisoned it can switch in and easily beat Roselia 1v1.
  • OK so 96 Speed Roselia can win 1v1 with some luck the most common scenario is, one leads Roslia, Other leads Golem, Roselia clicks Grass Stab, Weakness Policy Activates, Rose is met with Earthquake GG Roselia. Now this doesn't happen every game but it happens a lot, and while you still may have prevent Stealth Rocks, you may not have, as it could be Custap, or they click Rocks you click Stab or Sludge Bomb expecting a switch. At the end of the day Golem is there as a Suicide Lead, unless it is needed for a Normal/electric check through out the match in which case your Golem was probably not lead in that match anyways.
  • I will note Monferno does not like switching in on Sludge Bomb, but other than that Monferno easily has match up against Roselia(Nothing likes being put to sleep, I didn't forget that's a given) and I'll leave it at that.
  • Easily Roselia has the Match Up. It switches in and doesn't fear anything but the rare Yawn. it sets Up 3 layers of Spikes or 2 layers of toxic Spikes, it stays healthy and it eliminates the best Volt absorber in the tier.
  • Rose is a nice check to Zebstrika. Defensive Roselia does not like an Overheat or to get Volted on but 1v1 Defensive Rose always will come out on top with out hax.
So as we just determined Roselia only Fairs really well with 3/11 of the other S/A+ Ranks. Roselia to me in this Meta IS Not S Rank Worthy. Now don't get me wrong Roselia is very very much a top tier Pokemon. While it struggles with some of our S and A rank Pokemon it keeps other Pokemon in check such as Raichu, Gourgeist, Gorebyss(before a SS), Nasty Plot Misdreavus, Huntail, Chatot, ect. It is with out a doubt the best hazard setter in the tier and one of the premier "Glue" Pokemon. But it just, to me, does not meet the criteria of S Rank, while it does some Roles VERY well, it just doesn't pressure as much as it use to. It loses to some pretty crucial Matchups as you saw earlier, and all in all just cant check everything at once.
 

ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Golduck is seriously out of place in B+, easily the worst mon there and harder to put on a team than things like Gabite or Purugly left behind in B. Not sure where this nom came from but I really don't get it.
I wanna play more before fully backing the nom, but I think it might be time for Roselia to get back in S. It just checks pretty much the entire tier effectively combined with how incredibly good Tspikes are right now. It's definitely not at former levels thanks to being split between offensive and defensive sets and the rise in Ice-types but I think it might be enough to warrant a rise.
My list of offensive Electrics honestly wouldn't change much, I can't tell if people want trode to rise or drop but I don't really think it needs either?
My only other noms to add to the table would be bumping dusknoir to B rank potentially and dropping venipede, the former is really solid as a check to everything but Pawniard and now it has more slots and people realized sucker is good (not my innovation but I'll take it) and suicide spiking as a whole has definitely gotten worse and Venipede is just harder to use. If it goes down glalie could probably drop as well since i think they're about equal in how good they are. I'm going to make a longer NP post later but these suicide spikers just don't feel as good anymore, even with Pelipper gone

Edit @ ShuckleDeath: 220 sleep rose beats pawniard and machoke fairly reliably tho
I know. But the fact is Roselia just cant blanket check like it use to. You may beat Pawnaird and Machoke now but now Ice coverage hurts to the point when you can no longer check easily. rose checks a good deal of the tier but you have to vary to do so and while versatility is great in Roses case you lose on something on all the other sets, Fast Sleep rose now is a very powerful attacker but is still slow by other offensive Mon standers, and now lose on tspikes/spikes. i mean Roselia to S isn't as cut and dry as it use to be while Rose can check a good amount of the tier it cant check what all it should be in just one set. For the first time Rose is fighting for spots on teams and with the Mons being used rn it doesnt even set hazards as well as it did back in old metas. Those were the points i was trying to get across.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Golduck is seriously out of place in B+, easily the worst mon there and harder to put on a team than things like Gabite or Purugly left behind in B. Not sure where this nom came from but I really don't get it.
I wanna play more before fully backing the nom, but I think it might be time for Roselia to get back in S. It just checks pretty much the entire tier effectively combined with how incredibly good Tspikes are right now. It's definitely not at former levels thanks to being split between offensive and defensive sets and the rise in Ice-types but I think it might be enough to warrant a rise.
My list of offensive Electrics honestly wouldn't change much, I can't tell if people want trode to rise or drop but I don't really think it needs either?
My only other noms to add to the table would be bumping dusknoir to B rank potentially and dropping venipede, the former is really solid as a check to everything but Pawniard and now it has more slots and people realized sucker is good (not my innovation but I'll take it) and suicide spiking as a whole has definitely gotten worse and Venipede is just harder to use. If it goes down glalie could probably drop as well since i think they're about equal in how good they are. I'm going to make a longer NP post later but these suicide spikers just don't feel as good anymore, even with Pelipper gone

Edit @ ShuckleDeath: 220 sleep rose beats pawniard and machoke fairly reliably tho
For the record Golduck went up because its quite anti-meta right now, as most people currently prepare for Gorebyss (and to an extent Floatzel) by using a Choice Scarf user, but Golduck isn't outsped by any scarfer and in rain can outspeed and OHKO all but Simipour. It also can KO rose from like 70% with psyshock (it still 2HKOs with Ice Beam if running focus blast in last slot).

B+ is quite full rn admittedly, so I think Gorebyss should be dropped since teams are very prepared for it with Choice Scarfers which are common, and mons like Timid Electrode and Sdef Rose have been getting more popular. I can also see Duosion dropping as Grumpig and Pawniard have become more popular, Vullaby also got a surge of usage not long ago and strong physical attackers are as common as ever, simisear and or ninetales dropping as grumpig is common and stallbreaking abilities have been required less (im less bothered about this as mixed sear is nice and ninetales checks rotom well - it might just be because i havent seen them in a while im underrating then - then again not seeing them in a long time does kinda reflect their viability), and lastly sawsbuck as people are running better scarfers like rotom-f and simipour (and even simisage is giving it competition as a grass type scarfer)
 
E ---> D

So this is a mon I've been hyping up over the past few days and I really think it has a solid niche in this meta. With its ability Shield Dust it allows it to ignore secondary effects from moves. So with it and x4 resisting fighting, it becomes one of the best, if not the best Machoke counter in the game as you're not effected by Dynamic Punch confusion. (for reference this is the set I run: http://hastebin.com/zedobekoco.md speed out speed Stoutland at +1)

So what else can it do? Well it can also set up to monstrous levels. Mons with Sp.D + Def boosting moves like Acid Armor Duosion are known to snowball their bulk and damage to levels that are hard to deal with. Here are some things you can start the snowball on: Simisage, lefties Rotom-F, Arbok, Bouffalant, non Sleep Powder Roselia, Pawniard, and more. Whats more is if you net 1 QD for free you can also set up on Stoutland as well as you out speed and Iron Defense up on it.

Over all I think this is a really cool option right now given out rampant DPunch Machoke is which gives it a really relevant niche that should bump it out of E.
 
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Raiza

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World Defender

Probopass from A- to B+
This nomination might look like out of the blue for some people, but I just feel like Probopass fell out of the radar recently, and for valid reasons. Probopass feels more underwhelming than ever, especially when compared to what other Stealth Rock setters, such as Golem, Relicanth, Stunfisk, and even Gabite / Metang which are in lower ranks, can bring to a game. In a metagame where most Stealth Rock setters take the role of defensive backbone, Probopass feels out of place. In fact, despite the high bulk, Probopass's typing doesn't allow it to check much anyway, sporting huge weaknesses against threatening types in PU in Fighting-, Water-, and Ground-, while the lack of a reliable recovery doesn't help either, making it easily worn down during a game, especially since it fulfills the role of a pivot. Despite at times running investments in Special Attack, Probopass still isn't be able to pull out much damage output and will likely end up being a fodder for something or not being even able to fully stop what it had to check. Even though Probopass carries niches that make it unique, such as the access to Volt Switch, and Magnet Pull, making it a decent pivot and Pawniard trapper, they aren't relevant enough compared to what another Stealth Rock setter such as Stunfisk or Metang can provide to a team(ie: best status spreader in the tier, and being able to check a plethora of physical attackers, on the other hand Pursuit trapping and answer to stuff like Regice). This, along with poor typing and lack of recovery, overall make the competition with other Stealth Rock setters very harsh, and Probopass becomes really hard to splash on teams, therefore I don't feel like it should be kept in A-, instead B+ seems more fitting especially since stuff like Metang, which honestly is better in most situations, is there.
 
Well I want to nominate Munchlax to C and I'll just quote Maro's post that was unnoticied

Munchlax to C
Munchy was always in Vigoroths shadow and now with its beautiful over 90% Ban Munchlax has lost its biggest competition as a fat normal type. Overall its role remains similar in its curse set and C just seems like a reasonable position for it atm.
He said everything in a short comment
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Anti-meta doesn't make up for Golduck sucking
Anyway, I think Audino might need a bump to A+. It's near obligatory on most defensive teams, actually provides wish passing which only shit like hypno can do otherwise, blanket walls a ton of stuff, has plenty of different options even if standard wishtect double edge aroma is the best set. Also not rotom weak. Magical!
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Kadabra A ---> A+
Although it is the epitome of a glass cannon its does it job pretty damn well. It has a very good speed tier and is kind of scarry to deal with at times just because the fact that your team doesn't have a desinated check or counter that can switch in reliably it can pretty much pick off whatever Pokemon it wants. Life Orb also just is stupidly powerful. I don't think it is better than Zebstrika but I still think A+ is a really good place for it. Someone could probably expand on this more.
 

Camerupt from B to B+

Camerupt is really solid and a really consistent mon atm. It's ability to check our countless electric types is really handy, while also providing rocks and phazing (with roar), scouting around (with protect) or spreading status (with rocks). It's decent defensive typing coupled with solid bulk let it switch in on some of the tier's main attackers like Rotom-F and Mr. Mime. The main downside is it's low speed and it's huge weakness to water-types in a such water-spammed meta. Most water types can't freely switch on Camerupt as they're hit hard by it's STAB Earth Power, and it's weakness are also pretty much easily patched up by something like Roselia or Politoed (generally things that can take both Water- and Ground-types, which are easy to beat with only one mon). Camerupt is pretty good and i can see it in B+.

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 106-126 (30.9 - 36.7%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Rapidash Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Camerupt: 147-174 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 120-142 (34.9 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Roselia Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Camerupt: 169-199 (49.2 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


8 SpA Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash: 246-290 (90.7 - 107%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
8 SpA Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Floatzel: 177-208 (56.9 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 SpA Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 204-242 (48.3 - 57.3%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 SpA Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mr. Mime: 87-103 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock



Kadabra A ---> A+
Although it is the epitome of a glass cannon its does it job pretty damn well. It has a very good speed tier and is kind of scarry to deal with at times just because the fact that your team doesn't have a desinated check or counter that can switch in reliably it can pretty much pick off whatever Pokemon it wants. Life Orb also just is stupidly powerful. I don't think it is better than Zebstrika but I still think A+ is a really good place for it. Someone could probably expand on this more.
Yes, I also agree with a Kadabra rise. It's ability to check key threats for offense with it's Sash set is really valuable. It's powerful and fast enough to revenge kill ton of threats that may give you trouble, but it's also consistent in revenge killing even if you get outsped, as it has the ability to every avoid an OHKO, again, thanks to sash. It's Life orb set hugely threatens balance and more defensive-oriented teams (Sash also does so but LO threatens even more) and also forces Sucker Punch users in a 50/50 with Substitute (it also beats most, bar Dusknoir, as it has access to Shadow Sneak aswell) and then it can just beat 'em with a powerful coverage move. It's sheer power, speed and versatility are the main selling points, and i agree with it rising to A+.

EDIT:

Zweilous from C+ to B-

Ok, we can all agree this thing is underrated. It's CB set can literally 2hko the whole tier and it still has enough bulk to live some attacks, aswell as a pretty good defensive typing. Zweilous can beat walls that even threatening wallbreakers in the tier, like Stoutland, can't break, such as Tangela. It's Specially Defensive set is also really good, thanks to it's good bulk and aforementioned good defensive typing. It has the ability to switch in on most psychic types and take hits for days, while also being a phazer which is really nice for hazard stacking teams and prevents it from being set up fodder (which i don't think it can be at all, as even uninvested, Hustle-boosted Crunch hits pretty hard) and a sleep absorver. It speed is something that hold it back, but I think this mon is solid and shouldn't keep so low.
 
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Lumineon from C- to C

With the rise of Pelipper to NU I think Lumineon now got its good chance to shine as an effective defogger. Storm Drain is a good niche allowing it to block any water move and check water threats such as Floatzel, it is also able to grab momentum with U-Turn, which is always good for a hazard remover. Its stats arent that badl defensively speaking so they get really effective when invested on a classic max hp/def spread. It could also look to be completely outclassed by the top defoggers such as Vullaby and Vibrava, but unlike these two eviolite abusers Lumineon isn't strongly dependant onto its own item, and it can still try to check stuff like cb floatzel when tricked onto switcheroo for example(which is something vullaby can't once tricked), as well as not suffering knock off that much. Vibrava is also more passive than Lumineon, as it has low atk stat while spreading burns with scald is always a plus, but however it lacks recovery unlike the two evio mons, even though leftovers + blocking water type moves it switches into make up for it, as it doesn't usually take much damage.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Simisear
B+ ---> B

I'm just finding Simisear really inferior to other Fire-types at the moment, I mean the coverage it gets from AoA is nice, but it doesn't really make Simisear that threatening it only hits a few of mons like Swanna and Mightyena. Nasty Plot also just isn't as good when comparing it to Ninetales. I mean even the analysis says it is hard to set up.
"Simisear is difficult to use because it rarely finds any space to set up a Nasty Plot" I mean if that is its best set I can't really see it that high.
 

Simisear
B+ ---> B

I'm just finding Simisear really inferior to other Fire-types at the moment, I mean the coverage it gets from AoA is nice, but it doesn't really make Simisear that threatening it only hits a few of mons like Swanna and Mightyena. Nasty Plot also just isn't as good when comparing it to Ninetales. I mean even the analysis says it is hard to set up.
"Simisear is difficult to use because it rarely finds any space to set up a Nasty Plot" I mean if that is its best set I can't really see it that high.
I strongly disagree with this nom. If anything, I'd nom Simisear to move up to A-, but I think B+ is ok for now. Simisear is extremely hard to switch into and teams are highly unprepared for the AoA set at the moment. You also say Simisear is inferior to other Fire-types, yet you don't even bother to mention Monferno, which is the best Fire-type in the tier right now. Instead, you mention Ninetales, which is worse than Simisear in so many ways. Also if you're going to make a nom, please go more in depth, if I had never played PU before and saw this I wouldn't see any reason why it would move because there's hardly any description given.
 

Raiza

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World Defender
Agree with the above, and even if Monferno is our best Fire-type right now, Simisear can still distinguish itself well because of the various niches it carries, for example is faster, has better coverage, has higher damage output, and most of the times covers different roles too. Anyway, I also found success running a Substitute + Nasty Plot set on Simisear, it doesn't sound ecstatic on paper if compared to Simipour and Simisage, but it can put in work more often than it seems. Anyways, it actually isn't impossible to find a set up with Simisear, because people will most of the time expect an AoA set and either stay in with their Pokemon as death fodders, or switch out, and in both cases you should manage to get a Substitute / Nasty Plot up. After you manage to set up Simisear becomes extremely deadly, and I would say arguably harder to deal with than Simipour and Simisage, due to teams usually being more unprepared against Fire-types these days. The lack of a third coverage move might seem lackuster, but other than Fire Blast and Focus Blast any other moves aren't really needed on the set as the double STAB combo already allows Simisear to hit most of the metagame hard, especially at +2, so you can sacrifice the third coverage option for Substitute, and pair it with Salac Berry. Also its most popular counter Grumpig now runs an overly offensive set that leaves few investments to bulk so it takes huge damage from +2 Fire Blast anyway.
 
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Ditto C- ---> D/E

So ditto is a mon I really don't see being useful right now. The only metas where Ditto is theoretically viable is in metas where set up sweepers are rampant, such as the SS meta we had. The problem is we're not in a set up spamming meta where set up sweepers are basically the heart of the tier, we've in a very balanced state where they're good such as SD monferno, but not so good to justify actually using it. The problem is only made worse by things like Kadabra in the tier who acts as a "catch all answer" for set up sweepers due to its sash not breaking from hazards, letting it take on any set up sweepers and cripple them with twave/encore. Over all I don't think this mon is viable right now.



Noctowl C- ---> D
Noctowl is just a mon I'd never see someone actually using if they're using a serious team. Given how little options we have I can still see someone actually using it, but there is no real niche I can think of where Noctowl is actually a good fit. It can't switch into any of the SR setters, it's slow, lacks a good move pool, tinted lens is the best it has to try and over come its bad coverage, and over all a lot of mons such as Pawniard, Klang, Rotom, and Regice just abuse it. It lacks a niche where its useful enough to justify using.



Huntail B+ ---> B
Basically the only thing Huntail has going for it is Coil Passing. As a SS user it's out classed by Gorebyss except the rare cases where you can Sucker Punch a Rotom sitting at around 60%. The coil sets just scream abuse from the like of Rotom while the SS sets face heavy competition from Gorebyss who just pulls the set off better by having better coverage to break down defensive cores. Things like Politoed and Roselia can wall both sets, and even Coil passing isnt that great as our tier lacks really good abusers of Coil.



Kingler B- ---> C+
A lot like Huntail, Kingler finds itself really lacking as a set up sweeper in this meta. It's easily revenge killed from the likes of Rotom, Zeb, and Electrode. I'd much rather use Seaking if I needed a bulky water type on my team as the SD/ Agility sets it can run just aren't effective enough to warrant it to keep B-.



Furfrou C ---> C-
So I'll admit I haven't used this mon a lot, but when I have used it the mon just didn't do anything. The main niche it has is a fast bulky twave pivot, which on paper sounds really decent until you remember you can't take special hits at all, and it can't even switch into a lot of the best physical attackers right now in Monferno, Machoke, Stoutland, Boufalant, or even Dodrio.



Gogoat B ---> B+
Okay so I had to make this post a little not so dark with just wanting everything to drop, so here is a rise! So Gogoat is something that's really cool right now since Vigoroth left, with it leaving the Bulk Up sets have gotten much better as there isn't a set up sweeper on almost every team that can come in, boost with it, and then beat it. It also makes it the best Bulk Up user in the tier! This thing gets extremely bulky extremely fast and has really good 2 move coverage that can make a lot of teams struggle to beat it after it gets going.
 
huntail is in no way worse than gorebyss, it's honestly quite a bit better because it doesn't autolose to any scarfer and isn't even particularly wallable except the reasonably rare tangela. if anything gorebyss should go down.

also soft disagree on gogoat rising because b+ rank is ultra huge right now and it's just not as good as the rest of the rank
 

2xTheTap

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Kingler B- ---> C+
A lot like Huntail, Kingler finds itself really lacking as a set up sweeper in this meta. It's easily revenge killed from the likes of Rotom, Zeb, and Electrode. I'd much rather use Seaking if I needed a bulky water type on my team as the SD/ Agility sets it can run just aren't effective enough to warrant it to keep B-.
I also wouldn't say Kingler is easily revenge killed by the Electric-types you mentioned at all, given with an Agility under its belt and a neutral nature, it's hitting 498 Speed - faster than every relevant Scarfer we have (Scarf Electabuzz and Scarf Timid Raichu are both faster, but outside of the ladder, you'll only be seeing Eviolite Electabuzz and LO or Modest Scarf Raichu anyway). I might've been able to see your point if Kingler had troubles setting up with Agility and/or SD, but the fact is that its physical bulk (base 115 def) is actually good enough to soft check or set up on a lot of physical threats in the tier. While it struggles to break past things like Tangela, Politoed, and other standard answers to Water-types, it can actually wear these Pokemon down for its offensive partners by just clicking Knock Off as they come in.

What's more, is that it actually doesn't require a whole lot of support as you're building, meaning it'd be unlikely for Kingler to drop as far as C+ imo. As a partner, Roselia for example beats things like Gourgeist-Super, Tangela, Stunfisk (so Kingler doesn't have to risk Static), and Politoed all fairly easily, supplies Kingler with a switch-in to specially offensive Pokemon, provides opportunities for Kingler to setup via Sleep Powder, and Rose's entry hazards in Spikes and Toxic Spikes wear down your opponent's team to the point Kingler can take advantage and set up a sweep late-game. Another possible partner that'd be easy to add to a team with Kingler is Jumpluff, for sharing good type synergy with Kingler, aiding in set up via Sleep Powder and Memento, grabbing momentum via U-Turn, etc.

While it's not without its faults, Kingler doesn't strike me as a C+ mon, given how easy it is to build around, and the simple fact that it does the opposite of what you said, in that these Electric-types you mentioned don't actually revenge a +2 neutral-natured Kingler.
 
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