1. Welcome to the Orange Islands! Please remember to read the rules. Come chat with us on our IRC channel and enjoy your stay!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

R/S/E In-Game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Zystral, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    approved by Jellicent

    Okay, let's get this underway. Like all in-game tier lists, this will hopefully end up on-site at some point, so we're looking for well-written, clear, and concise analyses of why this Pokemon is good in-game.

    As well as holding records and being the drawing board for the analyses of each Pokemon in its tier, this thread can also be used to discuss the placement and merit of various Pokemon.

    I'll do my best to update this post regularly.

    When making a case for the placement/movement of a Pokemon into a certain tier, consider the following:
    • How early on can you obtain this Pokemon?
    • How wide is its movepool?
    • How effective are its base stats?
    • How powerful is it in the long-run?
    • How easy is it to maximise the Pokemon's potential?
    • How much utility does it have (in or out of battle?)

    These are also all points to talk about when you're writing the analysis for that Pokemon.

    Here's a list with every Pokemon obtainable in the Hoenn Pokedex, in National Dex order, sorted by evolution family. I've also added where they can be located earliest.

    Show Hide

    Note: Anything listed in brackets implies difficulty in obtaining, either due to trading being required or

    Pichu -> Pikachu -> Raichu - Pikachu in Safari Zone
    Sandshrew -> Sandslash - Sandshrew in Route 111, Route 113 in R/S
    Vulpix -> Ninetales - Vulpix in the grass around Mt. Pyre
    Igglybuff -> Jigglypuff -> Wigglytuff - Jigglypuff in Route 115 North
    Zubat -> Golbat -> Crobat - Zubat in Granite Cave
    Oddish -> Gloom -> Vileplume / Bellossom - Oddish in Route 110
    Psyduck -> Golduck - Safari Zone
    Abra -> Kadabra (-> Alakazam) - Abra in Granite Cave
    Machop -> Machoke (-> Machamp) - Machop in Fiery Path
    Tentacool -> Tentacruel - As soon as you obtain Surf, the nearest water route is Route 102.
    Geodude -> Graveler (-> Golem) - Geodude in Granite Cave
    Magnemite -> Magneton - New Mauville
    Doduo -> Dodrio - Doduo in Safari Zone
    Grimer -> Muk - Grimer in Fiery Path
    Voltorb -> Electrode - Voltorb in New Mauville
    Koffing -> Weezing - Koffing in Fiery Path
    Rhyhorn -> Rhydon - Rhyhorn in Safari Zone
    Horsea -> Seadra (-> Kingdra) - Horsea in Route 132
    Goldeen -> Seaking - Goldeen can be fished in Petalburg.
    Staryu -> Starmie - Staryu can be fished in Lilycove.
    Pinsir - Safari Zone
    Magikarp -> Gyarados - Old Rod vs every single body of water.
    Chinchou -> Lanturn - Any seaweed.
    Natu -> Xatu - Natu in Safari Zone
    Azurill -> Marill -> Azumarill - Marill in Route 104
    Wynaut -> Wobbuffet - Wynaut egg received in Lavaridge, can be caught on "Mirage Island".
    Girafarig - Safari Zone
    Heracross - Safari Zone
    Slugma -> Magcargo - Fiery Path
    Corsola - Super Rod on Route 128
    Skarmory - Route 113
    Phanphy -> Donphan - Phanphy in Safari Zone
    Treecko -> Grovyle -> Sceptile - Starter Pokemon
    Torchic -> Combusken -> Blaziken - Starter Pokemon
    Mudkip -> Marshtomp -> Swampert - Starter Pokemon
    Poochyena -> Mightyena - Poochyena in Route 101
    Zigzagoon -> Linoone - Ziggy in Route 101
    Wurmple -> Silcoon -> Beautifly
    -> Cascoon -> Dustox - Wurmple inRoute 101
    Lotad -> Lombre -> Ludicolo - Lotad in Route 102 / NA in Ruby
    Seedot -> Nuzleaf -> Shiftry - Seedot in Route 102 / NA in Sapphire
    Taillow -> Swellow - Taillow inRoute 104
    Wingull -> Pelipper - Wingull in Route 104
    Ralts -> Kirlia -> Gardevoir - Ralts in Route 102 (rare-ish)
    Surskit -> Masquerain - Surskit in Route 102 / NA in Emerald
    Shroomish -> Breloom - shroomish in Petalburg Woods
    Slakoth -> Vigoroth -> Slaking - Slakoth in Petalburg Woods
    Nincada -> Ninjask + Shedinja - Nincada in Route 116
    Whismur -> Loudred -> Exploud - Whismur in Route 116
    Makuhita -> Hariyama - Makuhita in Granite Cave
    Nosepass - Granite Cave: Rock Smash
    Skitty -> Delcatty - Skitty in Route 116
    Sableye - Granite Cave / NA in Ruby
    Mawile - Emerald: Victory Road / Ruby: Cave of Origin / NA in Sapphire
    Aron -> Lairon -> Aggron - Aron in Granite Cave
    Meditite -> Medicham - NA in Emerald / Meditite in Mt Pyre Grass
    Electrike -> Manectric - Electrike in Route 110
    Plusle / Minun - Route 110
    Volbeat / Illumise - Route 117
    Roselia - Route 117, NA in Emerald
    Gulpin -> Swalot - Gulpin in Route 110
    Carvanha -> Sharpedo - Carvanha can be fished on Route 118 with Good/Super Rod.
    Wailmer -> Wailord - Wailmer can be Fished in Dewford with Good/Super Rod.
    Numel -> Camerupt - Numel in Fiery Path
    Torkoal - Fiery Path
    Spoink -> Grumpig - Spoink in Jagged Pass
    Spinda - in Route 113
    Trapinch -> Vibrava -> Flygon - Trapinch in Route 111
    Cacnea -> Cacturne - Cacnea in Route 111
    Swablu -> Altaria - Swablu in Route 114
    Zangoose - Route 114, Ruby only
    Seviper - Route 114, Sapphire / Emerald only.
    Lunatone / Solrock - Meteor Falls. Sapphire: Lunatone. Emerald/Ruby: Solrock.
    Barboach -> Whiscash - Fished in Route 111 with Good/Super Rod.
    Corphish -> Crawdawnt - Good/Super Rod in Petalburg
    Baltoy -> Claydol - Baltoy in Route 111
    Lileep -> Cradily - Revive fossils.
    Anorith -> Armaldo - Revive fossils
    (Feebas) -> Milotic - Route 119. Good luck though.
    Castform - Gift at Weather Institute
    Kecleon - Route 120, event
    Shuppet -> Banette - Shuppet in Mt Pyre interior / Route 121, version dependent
    Duskull -> Dusclops - Duskull in Mt Pyre interior / Route 121, version dependent
    Tropius - Route 119
    (Chimecho) - Mt Pyre summit
    Absol - Route 120
    Spheal -> Sealeo -> Walrein - Shoal Cave
    Clamperl (-> Huntail / Gorebyss) - Any seaweed
    Relicanth - Any seaweed
    Luvdisc - Good/Super Rod of Ever Grande City
    Bagon -> Shelgon -> Salamence - Meteor Falls, back room
    (Regirock) - Route 111. Event.
    (Regice) - Route 105. Event.
    (Registeel) - Route 120. Event.
    Kyogre - Cave of Origin. Pre-E4 of Sapphire only.
    Groudon - Cave of Origin. Pre-E4 of Ruby only.
    Rayquaza - Sky Pillar. Pre-E4 of Emerald only.

    the Beldum family, Deoxys, Jirachi, and the Lati twins are unavailable pre-E4.


    Current Tiers
    Quick guide: Top means that this Pokemon is excellent for playing the game with. It is accessible early on and performs excellently, meaning should almost definitely be used if possible.
    High-ranking Pokemon suffer a small problem making them problematic in fitting into your team, be it a slightly shallow movepool, difficulty in obtaining early on, or difficult to train.
    Middle-ranking Pokemon are just average. You'll get through the game with a bit of grinding, and they're not impossible to use, but there are definitely better options.
    Low-ranking Pokemon are usually such not because they're weak, but they're either difficult to obtain, or you encounter them too late-on for them to be useful, as your team is usually much stronger and doesn't need the filling of the holes by that point.
    Bottom-ranking Pokemon should not be used. Full stop.

    Top (open)

    Torchic -> Combusken -> Blaziken
    Mudkip -> Marshtomp -> Swampert
    Zangoose

    (Abra -> Kadabra -> Alakazam)


    High (open)

    Taillow -> Swellow
    Heracross
    Abra -> Kadabra


    Middle (open)

    -


    Low (open)

    Whismur -> Loudred -> Exploud


    Bottom (open)

    -


    Once this develops a bit, then I'll get to work making a list of what isn't yet tiered. Also note that while you need to consider the base-stage evolution in terms of acquirability, you also need to consider final-stage evolutions in terms of actually fighting people.
    As a result, your analysis should be about the final stage evolution, but the acquirability and trainability of the basic stage should also affect your tiering.

    Many thanks.
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
  3. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    Hemp Man: I'm just getting discussion going first. Feel free to refer to the existing one and make any suggestions you feel, and if there are enough differences, I'll push for an update of the one currently on site.


    I'm going to start this off by suggesting Blaziken for Top Tier. The fact that it's a Starter Pokemon means it is the first Pokemon you obtain in the game, and following a little bit of grinding (honestly nothing considering Roxanne has a Level 15 Nosepass and Torchic evolves at Level 16), you end up with a Fire/Fighting powerhouse with STAB Ember, STAB Double Kick, and Peck. This alone should see you through the first three Gyms of the game (given a little grinding for Wattson's Manectric, which you should still O-2HKO with Double Kick).

    Also for High, possible Top tier, discussion needed, is Pelipper. Wingull you get very early on (possibly second or third caught in the game), learns Wing Attack early on (13, you catch it at about 4-5), meaning you can do easy training in the forest after you catch it, plus it thwacks Brawly. On top of that, it eventually will learn Water Gun, giving you an advantage vs Roxanne and Flannery. Then, by the time you reach Norman, it evolves and learns Protect. Fucken' win. It also learns Fly and Surf, giving you a small bit of leeway with your HM slaves (your options expand because Fly and Surf are no longer needed).

    Finally in Emerald, Rayquaza for Top tier. It's not only Level 70, but it's fucking Rayquaza. End of story.

    I'll give these a while to be disputed, but if there is enough support for any of them I'll write them up shortly.
  4. crashandcortex

    crashandcortex

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    Wingull directly comes with Water Gun as soon as you have it, giving it an immediate advantage against Roxanne. I'd however see it in High moreso than Top, as it's stuck with Water Gun until after Norman and Wing Attack comes off it's rather low base 50 Attack. Stats are also sort of underwhelming, but it's definitely a kickass mon to have and you can diversify it as a slave if you really want to, hence why I'd keep it High.

    Mudkip/Swampert for insta Top, it's the absolute closest to perfection that an ingame Pokemon has yet to get IMO. Balanced stats, great defenses and good offenses for balancing out as a tank, fantastic typing which initially gives it an advantage VS Roxanne and eventually grants you only one weakness and a fantastic secondary offensive type that makes mincemeat out of most opponents. Only real disadvnatage I'd say is its low speed, but it has the defenses to easily tank hits, and remember, you have ALL THE RECOVERY you need. Can also be used as a great HM slave as it learns 5/8, but it deserves better than that. c:
  5. Death Phenomeno

    Death Phenomeno I'm polite so just for clarity, when I'm cross I
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2006
    Messages:
    895
    I noticed some mistakes in your Pokémon list:


    • Ralts can be found in Route 102, not 103.
    • Roselia doesn't appear in Emerald.
    • In RS, you can only have one of the fossils; in E you can only have the 2nd one after the E4.
    • You can get Jirachi as soon as you get the Pokédex in RS with the Colosseum Bonus Disc (don't know about Channel, though).

    Otherwise, seems good.
  6. More Cowbell

    More Cowbell

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,276
    Zangoose for Top/High; obtainable early/halfway through the game, but is easily found. It's Attack stat is very good for in-game Pokémon (115 I believe), and Zangoose has the speed (and some decent bulk) to back it up. Its movepool is shallow, but it doesn't need much more than Swords Dance/Return/Brick Break to nuke the game (ghosts aside, but Zangoose learns decent enough coverage for these). Only real problem is that it isn't obtainable right away, apart from that it's a top-notch Pokémon. Note that Zangoose is only obtainable in Ruby.

    Heracross for High; it hits like a truck and has good STAB moves and extra coverage, but is only obtainable deep in the Safari Zone, towards the end of the game. Bug STAB comes late, but Fighting STAB is strong enough to get there. Much like Zangoose, Heracross possesses great Attack, decent Speed and decent bulk.
  7. Layell

    Layell Alas poor Yorick, I knew him, Peter Gabriel too!
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Sprite Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,259
    I can't see much being added from the article on the site, having a high and top would be nice since it's useful to make that distinction. I also think separate tier placement for if you can trade to evolve pokemon similar to the B/W list.

    In terms of top Alakzam, the starters and zigzagoon should be set at top. Alakazam can shut down anything aside from the rare Mightyena on Aqua/Magma and learns Psychic at 36. Zigzagoon stays useful with headbutt and strength, and if you find him losing strength on your team just make him an HM slave, so he can at least have some bulk if you need to save someone useful.

    I'd like to test Chinchou and see how that works, also maybe Electrike, I used to speed through these games weekly when I rented it just to get masterballs and such.
  8. Afti

    Afti

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Messages:
    312
    Lack of BW Zorua/HGSS Sinnoh legends/etc. suggests to me that we shouldn't be tiering this.

    Of course, if we decide to- Top; Jirachi tears through ingame like a hot knife through butter. Huge stats make it unbeatable early on, and level 20 STAB Psychic from 100 SpA is amazing. Great TM options; Wish/Psychic/Thunder/Water Pulse is absolutely fantastic.
  9. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Honestly I think all three starters are really good and deserve to be top tier, imo.
  10. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    I agree with Swampert for Top. You can even ram Carbos down its throat and try some feeble attempt at EV training in-game (all those poor magikarp) to get its speed to reasonable levels. Of course, you could just grind until you're so overlevelled you're naturally faster as well, but in any case, I agree.

    Let's wait for more opinions on Wingull, but I still found Pelipper's Water Gun / Wing Attack strong enough to KO random shit. I put Shock Wave on my Pelipper also, and while I regret that, it didn't do any harm to have more coverage.

    Zangoose is definitely Top - Swords Dance tears open the game. I think we can afford to ignore Version Exclusivity for this list.

    However, I disagree with Heracross. It's actually frighteningly slow without the Scarf we know it as, and the fact that its only STAB early on is Brick Break (and doesn't improve ever) combined with Megahorn (which is too late) makes it difficult to use. On top of that, you really fold to the Golbats that all the Aqua/Magma Admins/Archie/Maxie have. Plus, it's a rare in the Safari Zone, which is the second half of the game. I get it's strong, and I am okay with Mid tier, but by Mt Pyre, I wouldn't go through the $500 and time to get a Heracross, THEN train it up.

    I suppose separate articles for if trading is possible can be placed in. They would likely go on the bottom of the higher tier saying "if trading is possible, then this is the tier for the given pokemon: ...".

    My problem with Alakazam is that as an Abra, not only is it notoriously difficult to catch (unless you can status it or evolve your zubat to have mean look early on), but Teleport only makes it a pain to train. It is however, ridiculously strong when it evolves, yes, but in terms of outright usefulness, assuming you catch Abra in Granite Cave, then actually evolve it by Slateport, against Wattson, you're going to have a bad time since all you can learn are Psychic-type moves. Magneton resists you all day and Sonicbooms your abysmal HP stat.

    Zigzagoon is only really good as an HM Slave. It has nice coverage, but its attacking stats as a Linoone are really subpar. Belly Drum comes at Level 53, but is bad in-game, and you have nothing else after that. All of its wacky movepool (Water Pulse, Ice Beam/Blizzard, Thunderbolt/Thunder, Shadow Ball, Surf) are all special moves. which sucks.

    Haven't tried Chinchou, Electrike suffers the same problems as Alakazam: you hit like a freighter train, but only on Thunderbolts and Bite. You basically lose to anything Ground-type not named Claydol. It's high tier, AT BEST, and even then I doubt it.

    We aren't, but I would otherwise agree with your sentiments - any Pokemon on this list, barring Trade evolutions, should be obtainable without any external event/alteration. Which makes Deoxys, Jirachi, and Ho-Oh/Lugia all out.

    After some more play, I want to suggest Flygon for High Tier. Granted that it is very slow as Trapinch and so hard to train, PLUS it evolves quite late-ish, but you get one relatively early, can stick EXP share, and forget about it. Then, when it's a Flygon, you can throw Dragon Claw, Earthquake, Crunch, Rock Tomb, Steel Wing, Fire Blast, or Fly on it and it has a pretty decent typing. It might be a little weak, but Dragon STAB plus second best coverage in the entire game makes up for it, imo.
  11. breh

    breh ● ︿ ●
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2010
    Messages:
    3,173
    On the topic of Abra: Alakazam will kill everything that it touches the second you obtain it and is definitely a top tier mon. Difficult to catch or no, it's no magikarp when it comes to training - upon delivering the letter to Steven, you can get the experience share and switch-train in the gym if you want to as well. The second it evolves into Kadabra (it only has 8 levels to go anyway), it becomes a monster that sweeps Brawly in three (four? does meditite live?) moves and continues to be good throughout the rest of the game if you don't evolve it - it has 120 base Special Attack, after all. Although it's a pity that it learns nothing but Thief and Shock Wave to supplement its coverage, the latter is more than good enough to carry it through the rest of the game.

    If you can evolve it to Alakazam, it will happily sweep the rest of the game for you.
  12. Redew

    Redew :O :D
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2011
    Messages:
    1,770
    Definitely nominating Treecko for top tier, as you get it early on in the game (starter) and it has some great offensive stats. It's Speed and Attack are mainly what I'm aiming at, because you can OHKO / 2HKO Wallace's Wailord with Leaf Blade at the end, as well as KO a lot of things with his other moves (Brick Break, Earthquake, Dragon Claw, Leaf Blade, etc.). However, most of these moves are learned through TMs.
  13. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,126
    I'll second Blaziken for Top. First pokemon in the game, with great mixed offenses and a useable speed. It either does well or neutral against the first 5 gyms, though it fades a bit against the last 3 gyms, and does well against 3/5 of the E4. Also does well against Magma's Dark types, and doesn't care about Aqua's Water types because Carvahna/Sharpedo are part dark and have horrible defenses.

    I'll also second Sceptile for top. Fares well against about half of the gyms, despite its low defenses. It's speed lets it knock out most of the ingame trainers, especially once it gets Leaf Blade, and Dragon Claw lets it wrap up pretty well in the E4. Has it even better in Emerald where Wallace is champion.
  14. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,615
    IMO any form of speed issues Mudkip may have is easily solved by dumping Quick Claw onto him. Water Pokemon are good ingame because at the very least, great HM slavery usage.

    Sceptile... idk. Sceptile was kind of frustrating surprisingly during E4 because for some reason everything carries Ice Beam so it's not really as good as you think it is. Milotic may occasionally survive and KO back with IB, which is annoying. >.<
  15. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Pokemon Researcher
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    1,423
    How has no one mentioned Taillow for top?

    Gets Wing Attack ridiculously early, it's fast and hits hard too. It's a little squishy, but that is more than made up for. It wrecks Brawly, and holds its own against the majority of other Gym leaders. Imo, it's a lot better than Wingull for a flying type.

    I agree with Blaziken/Swampert for top. Then can cruise through the whole game pretty much on their own if they want to. I'd say Electrike High... Only because it doesn't get Spark for ages, but it does wreck 2 whole gyms and an E4 member on its own.
  16. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,958
    Agreed. I find Fire Blast or Shadow Ball makes for a good coverage move on Zangoose. Yes, Fire Blast is working off 60 special, but this is in-game and it's 120 power, so it still hits pretty hard.
  17. crashandcortex

    crashandcortex

    Joined:
    May 27, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    I'm in agreeal with pretty much everything which everyone has said except for Abra being Top. While Alakazam is an absolute MONSTER, it has too many disadvantages (hard to catch, useless until Level 16, requires trading to reach full potential) to make it full on Top imo. Great choice absolutely, but doesn't wreck faces as soon as you get it, hampering its in-game performance somewhat.

    On another note..

    Whismur for Low. This thing thanks to its movepool, balanced offensive stats and early access looks like it'd be a winner, sadly it's just not the case. It's level up movepool (like a lot of mons honestly) is terrible, it doesn't get a reliable strong Normal STAB until Stomp at level 25, struggles against the first 3 leaders (Roxanne resists, Brawly hits for SE and Wattson has the Magnets) and has a pretty bad performance overall thanks to pitiful defenses, low speed and a REALLY late evolution to Exploud, accentuated by being a Normal type and thus not giving it any resistances. You can get Return after beating Archie/Maxie at Mt.Chimney, but that's too little too late to save this guy from sucking the big one. The fact that it may have SOME use though makes it Low and not Bottom with folks like Dustox, Corsola and Clamperl.
  18. More Cowbell

    More Cowbell

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,276
    Heracross' Speed stat isn't that bad (85, which usually more than suffices after the many NFE-Pokémon you encounter in-game), only 5 behind Zangoose. It is also surprisingly bulky. I agree with you that it can be quite hard to catch (I didn't have too many troubles, but you still need the right kind of bike, etc), but for me it was well worth it. An Attack stat of 125 is really good, especially in-game, where you don't need much more than Brick Break to bash through the game (I actually oftentimes prefer Brick Break over Close Combat in other games, since it has more PP). I still think it should be High tier, or Mid/High (if that is possible) at the lowest.

    Taillow (and later Swellow) are easy to obtain and quite strong early on, but later on in the game they fell behind a lot. I used to carry one on my team, but it just couldn't keep up with other physical attackers. Sure, it is very fast, but 85 Attack isn't too impressive, and 60/60/50 defenses are pathetic. Besides, it gets Wing Attack early, but after that it doesn't learn any notable Flying-attacks that are stronger (Fly at 70 BP, perhaps). Pretty much none of Swellow's moves reach above 70 BP anyways, which is just not enough with that 85 Attack. It wrecks Brawly, but that's about it. I'd say Mid tier.
  19. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,615
    Actually, if you're really gutsy (see the pun? guts, hohoho) you can dump the Facade TM onto Swellow. Once status'd, it can wreck quite a lot of shit.

    Zangoose also gets access to Brick Break, allowing it to destroy Steels that resist Return/Crush Claw.

    85 speed is actually pretty good: here's some of the things 85 speed can't outrun:
    Show Hide


    • Ninjask - lol who uses ninjask
    • Electrode - pretty sure hera can survive something and KO back with BB
    • Crobat - pretty sure nobody uses this either aside from Archie/Maxie, but Hera has nothing to do with this regardless
    • Swellow - you shouldn't be fighting swellow with heracross
    • Alakazam - neither should you be fighting zam either (not that anyone uses it)
    • Starmie - Who uses Starmie?
    • Manectric - IIRC somewhat common, but if they TWave they're instantly dead
    • Kadabra - who uses heracross against kadabra
    • Slaking - protect
    • Mence - only 1 trainer in the entire game has it and he has like fire blast
    • Flygon - legitimate threat that is also rare
    • Tentacruel - Brick Break/Megahorn is resisted anyway
    • Ninetales - see Swellow
    • Raichu - dafuq who uses this
    • Linoone - It's Linoone.
    • Xatu - see Swellow
    • Sharpedo - doesn't carry any water moves that are decently threatening
    • Rayquaza - master ball > ray
    • Minun/Plusle - wut
    • Zangoose - Can't KO without any boosts
    • Groudon/Kyogre - should be master ball'd anyway
  20. Mekkah

    Mekkah
    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2005
    Messages:
    14,036
    I remember Treecko being really awful for a starter. Grass is absolutely horrendous at type coverage, and it gets pretty much nothing but Normal and Grass moves to work with (and Pursuit, which is awful too). Definitely think it's at least a tier below Mudkip and Torchic, both of which have amazing coverage.

    I played with Wingull and I kind of enjoyed using it, but I don't think it's Top at all. It's pretty weak offensively and it's slow, so basically it goes against everything that makes in-game go fast (OHKOing things before they can Confuse Ray and things like that). Protect vs Norman is really nice, but it actually isn't an autowin since Slaking has so much HP and you only have so much PP.

    Taillow is by far the best non-starter Pokemon in the game. It gets Wing Attack so early and never stops hitting hard.
  21. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
    is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,610
    Even with Facade, you don't have Status Orbs in Emerald, meaning until you get a lucky switch in on an Acid or something, Swellow is not a hard hitter.
    Another problem is, while you wreck Brawly, Roxanne and Wattson shit on you. In fact, after losing the type advantage to Brawly, it doesn't ever have any type advantage again. You are at best, neutral to every other Leader and E4 member. In reality, Tate and Liza beat you because they resist everything you can throw at them. Juan/Wallace also carry a few Ice-type moves, besides having mostly bulky Pokemon (Sealeo, Kingdra, Whiscash). Glacia annihilates you, and Steven resists EVERYTHING. Wallace is the same scenario as R/S.

    I put it in High, at best, because it's early, easy to train, and can lay the smack down for a bit against non-important battles.

    I will concede Heracross for High tier.

    I will also put Kadabra in High Tier, and Alakazam in Top tier with the caveat of evolution. I believe this is a fair exchange.

    I really dislike Treecko. In all my experiences, it just never does what I need it to do. Sure it's fast, but it isn't strong enough, and it just has really bad matchups all game. You win against Roxanne, Juan/Wallace, and Tate and Liza. And even the last one requires you to be slightly overlevelled due to Leaf Blade still being a special attack.
    Grass just has the worst type coverage, Sceptile just isn't strong enough, and it really isn't very threatening. In fact, last time I played Ruby, I used Sceptile and couldn't defeat Winona so I just skipped her, went and caught Groudon, beat Wallace, then came back to fight Winona with my Fire Blasting Groudon. Earthquake and Dragon Claw are really your only other acceptable coverage moves. Maybe Brick Break, maybe Aerial Ace.
    I really think it is Mid tier, maybe High Tier.

    I've gone and edited in the names for anything that's currently a major consensus.
  22. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    449
    Treecko gets also Fury Cutter :D
    Taillow is good, yes, but in the end of game, he starts suffering.
  23. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,566
    I've ran through emerald more than any game in the pokemon series and have used a wide variety of pokemon in the game. I'll review my most recent play through, but I have loads more that I will probably add at somepoint.

    Wingull/Pelipper - High
    Wingull comes very early with a Water Gun as an immediate STAB, which is very useful against Roxanne. It also gets Wing Attack at level 13 which means it's one of the best pokemon to use against Brawly. It will start to struggle with power issues around the time of Flannery/Norman, but once you get Surf, that issue is remedied. It also learns protect by level-up, which is very useful against Norman's Slaking. Once you get Surf, you can go to the abandoned ship and get Ice Beam, which helps with coverage somewhat. As a Pelipper, it also has surprisingly good bulk for ingame and whilst it wasn't sweeping anybody when I got to the elite four, it certainly was one of my most consistent pokemon. My final moveset was Surf/Ice Beam/Shock Wave/Fly.

    Ralts/Kirlia/Gardevoir - Top
    Comes very early on, and will learn confusion at level 6, a great STAB move for that point in the game. However, it's extremely frail which limits it's usefulness against the first gym. It does have a great advantage against Brawly though. It struggles with mono-psychic coverage until you have access to Shock Wave, or if you did what I did, wait till Thunderbolt, but once you get that you should be fine. It only really shines once you get Gardevoir, as its Special Attack will rocket through the roof, and it can set up Calm Mind's easily for a sweep. My final moveset was Calm Mind/Psychic/Thunderbolt/Flash.

    Seedot/Nuzleaf/Shiftry (the traded one) - Low/Mid
    I got the traded Seedot in Rustboro (emerald) as it only has a 1% encounter rate in emerald. Whilst it seems like it should be good against Roxanne, it's traded so has struggle obeying you until after Brawly. Being traded it's very easy to raise, so that's a plus. If you're playing ruby, you can catch it much more easily and if you teach it Bullet Seed, it will be good against Roxanne. I often found it being outclassed by my other pokemon and it generally wasn't that useful to me. It needs TMs to be great to be honest. As a Shiftry, it has good offensive stats which is nice and has access to Shadow Ball and Brick Break for coverage. I opted for a special based Shiftry though; my final moveset was Growth/Giga Drain/Faint Attack/Extrasensory. As you can see Shiftry really lacks a good STAB move.

    Whismur/Loudred/Exploud - Mid
    It comes really early, but as a Whismur, its stats are abysmal and it isn't useful at all against the first 3 gyms. As a Loudred it gets a bit better, which access to Stomp or Return once you get to Fallarbor. It also gets Howl which is kind of useful for raising attack. It starts to become less useful before it evolves for the second time as Loudred's stats become sub-par around that point in the game. As an Exploud it has useable mixed attacking stats and a wide range of TMs it can learn. (Return, Shadow Ball, Brick Break, Earthquake, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Overheat) I can't remember my final moveset exactly, I think it was Return/Overheat/Earthquake/Howl.

    Gulpin/Swalot - Low
    To be honest, Swalot wasn't great. It has sub-par stats, and a rubbish level-up movepool. It doesn't perform well against many of the gyms. The main thing it has going for it is yawn, which is very good ingame, as no AI switches out. It's semi-decent bulk (I'm being generous there) lets it survive a few hits so that's nice. Nevertheless, it was my LVP and was hardly used against the elite four. My final moveset was Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball/Body Slam/Yawn. It's coverage wasn't great but it doesn't have a lot of options.

    Numel/Camerupt - High
    If you didn't pick Blaziken and want a fire type, Numel is the way to go. It knows Magnitude and Ember straight away which gives you reliable STAB attacking moves to use. It only really shines once it evolves though. Camerupt has good mixed attacking stats and a great type coverage, learning Rock Slide as soon as it evolves. It also gets Earthquake at level 37 which is just great. The only issue is a lot of the late-game being very water-based, causing Camerupt to struggle against the random trainers. I'd still put it at high, but I think other opinions are needed. My final moveset was Flamethrower/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Eruption.

    Changes from the on-site one:
    Whismur High --> Mid
    Numel Mid --> High
  24. More Cowbell

    More Cowbell

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,276
    I'd also like to nominate Staryu for High tier. It isn't available until late in the game (around Lilycove City), but once you catch one and evolve it into Starmie, you have one of the most potent special attackers in the game. Starmie has a nice 100 Sp. Attack and a great 115 Speed, with decent defenses (60/85/85, coupled with the Water type is not bad in-game). Another one of Starmie's selling points is its fantastic movepool; it needs some TMs to reach full potential, but when it does, not much can resist a moveset of Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Psychic. It also has the ability to heal itself using Recover, useful for when you're out of potions. Much like Heracross, its late availability is pretty much its only downside. Well worth training, and a great answer to many a Pokémon.
  25. JSND

    JSND

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    951
    Kinda Disagree with Staryu

    Yes it is good and all, but first, you need the Water Stone
    And 2 of that movesets is TM, which IIRC comes from GC

    Meh need PT testings....

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)