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R/S/E In-Game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Zystral, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Huh? Surf - story. Ice Beam - ship. Thunderbolt - New Mauville. Psychic - Victory Road. So no, you don't need GC.
  2. JSND

    JSND

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    Yeah i totally forgot about it

    Thunder can be used in Sapphire just saying....
  3. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Starmie is definitely high tier. I can't remember the team I used it in, but it was so amazing against the elite four, and ended a good few levels above my other team members, because it basically did the E4 on its own. It would be top tier if it didn't come so late.
  4. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    Evolving Staryu is not a big deal; you can go diving for Shards, and unless you REALLY want Ludicolo (and even then I am 50% certain you can find at least two lying around), it makes Starmie guaranteed.

    My only problem is that barring Recover, ALL of its usable movepool is tutor/TM only. Which is painful when you want to give Thunderbolt or Ice Beam to other stuff.

    I am very on-the-fence about this. I will wait for other opinions.
  5. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    To be honest, this is a problem for a lot of pokemon in generation 3, the majority need some TMs to be able to perform well. This is one of the reasons I nominated Numel/Camerupt for high because it's one of the few pokemon that don't.
  6. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    I don't think that Kadabra should be in top. It's not even as good as the Pokemon in the high tier to be quite honest. Psychic and Shock Wave are all you have for coverage, which simply isn't good enough. The demand for a psychic is also low in this generation, as there's no poison gym (and a general lack of poison-types compared to the previous two poison-heavy generations) and you are unlikely to evolve Abra before Brawley. The elemental punches are gone too. When up against the E4, it's a poor Pokemon to use against Sydney, Phoebe, and Steven (who has a lot of steel types).

    I'd say Kadabra should go to Mid, knowing how useful it is as Abra, and how little necessity there is for a pure psychic-type.

    Starmie does need a lot of unique TMs (and not so unique since you can have multiple Thunderbolts, Ice Beams and Psychics via the game corner) to work, but what we should keep in mind is that it doesn't just take TMs and 'do something' - it takes the good TMs and it solos the game with Calm Mind and extensive coverage. It may not be the best Pokemon for Phoebe, but it could use Calm Mind on Mightyena and then make quick work of the rest of Sydney's pokes - why not.

    Should be Top/High, not sure where exactly.
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    ^Starmie learns Calm Mind? Either way, its definitely an awesome Pokemon.

    I think I am going to do a Treecko run with Aerial Ace/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Leaf Blade set and see how that goes.
  8. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Just saying, I think that Trapinch/Vibrava/Flygon should be Mid. It's quite debateable, but due to being terrible for the majority of the game, I feel it should be mid. First of, Trapinch comes with no physical moves, like at all. You pretty much have to teach it dig straight off. Rock Tomb is the only other move that could help, but that's 50 BP, 80 Acc and doesn't have STAB. You then have to raise it about 15 levels with 45/45/45 defenses and 10 speed. Basically it sucks. It then evolves to Vibrava and loses its base 100 attack, in exchange for usable speed. However you still have to raise it another 10 levels with dreadful defenses and not a lot of attackin presence. It's only when it gets to Flygon that it turns good. From there it is top tier once you teach it Earthquake. It also gets Fire Blast, Dragon Claw, Crunch and Fly. If only you weren't raising a useless pokemon for half the game...
  9. Naix

    Naix

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    Because I have a good amount of experience with it, I believe Ralts should be in Mid.

    First of all, it has a 5% encounter rate, making it quite difficult to find. Don't be surprised if you end up spending upwards of 15 minutes looking for one. Once you catch it, you'll notice that its only move is Growl, which means it can't fend for itself for 2 levels. Once it learns Confusion, it gets better, but keep in mind that it can't do anything to at least half of Team Magma/Aqua's Pokemon. Also, don't forget that unless you teach it Shock Wave or Thunderbolt (the former of which is an exclusive TM and the latter is either expensive (80,000 Poke) or requires you to do the New Mauville sidequest), it has mono-Psychic coverage until level 42, when it learns Future Sight, which is no good because it has a 2-turn delay, in which time you could just switch to something else and have it deal with the opponent by itself. Also, while Gardevoir is incredible, keep in mind its slow experience curve means it won't be a Gardevoir until the second half of the game, as well as slow down your team more than say, Kadabra, who coincidentally has the same Special Attack as Gardevoir. Also keep in mind that before you can use Gardevoir, you have to use Ralts, who has a lower BST than that of Magikarp, and Kirlia, which is statistically similar to the unevolved starters, for half of the game.

    TL;DR
    I believe that the difficulty in obtaining Ralts combined with its poor stats, slow experience curve, and mono-Psychic coverage (without wasting valuable TMs) outweigh its access to Calm Mind at level 21 and Psychic at level 27 and Gardevoir's impressive stats enough for it to be Mid.
  10. Zystral

    Zystral めんどくさい、な~
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    I would agree with you on this, but I am currently using flygon in my current Emerald playthrough and it is easily MVP. Moreso than Blaziken. Catch a Trapinch at level 20, throw EXP Share on it, and forget it exists. By the time you come to fight Tate/Liza, it will likely be a Flygon. Once you defeat Juan, you can go grab Dragon Claw. Right now, mine is Level 55, carrying Dragon Claw, Fire Blast, Earthquake, and Crunch, and goddamn if it isn't one of the most useful mons on my team right now.
  11. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    Magnemite for High Tier. It is obtained in New Mauville, which coincidentally enough is right after you obtain Surf, and so the game moves into it second, very, very water-based half. It then proceeds to dominate Winona with the exception of Altaria, holds its own against Tate and Liza with the exception of Solrock's Flamethrower, and destroys Wallace/Juan, except Whiscash. But the way it handles the water routes so unbelievably easily is what makes it shine in my eyes.

    The other electric types are Electrike, which is rather difficult to train until it has STAB, Voltorb, which sucks, and Pikachu, which comes afterwards but is OK I guess. Magnemite is the best in the game for my money. Shit movepool, but all it really needs is its electric move of choice.
  12. Manveru123

    Manveru123

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    Except Starmie does not learn Calm Mind.
  13. Rowan

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    I'm not disputing the fact it is incredible late game, and probably would be top if it was that good all the way through. Raising a useless pokemon 25 levels is what puts it down. If we're ranking the pokemon as a whole rather than just its final evolution, it's definitely mid (in my opinion.)
  14. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    Yeah gotcha, just realised it never did (could've sworn every Psychic had access to it). Must've been thinking of setting up with X Specials then, which means Starmie isn't any different from all those other Pokemon with high speed and good coverage moves (except the coverage moves are really good). It should still be 2HKOing plenty of things in the E4 while taking little damage back, though.

    Also, Ralts attacking with Confusion is about as strong as Mudkip attacking with Water Gun and a whole lot stronger than Treecko's earlygame combat, so I think it's a little unfair to sandbag his performance. Ralts's BSP is indeed low, but it doesn't need its physical attack stat at all, for instance. I don't see why you wouldn't give Gardevoir Thunderbolt considering you get more than enough money in this game (and he's a good candidate for the free TM you get from Wattson), and if you get a Heart Scale before Kirlia evolves, you could even tutor it Magical Leaf to run out of PP much slower whilst you surf.

    Trapinch seems to be a candidate for Low IMO. How long exactly do you keep it as an Exp Share reserve that contributes nothing, and how much does Flygon's eventual supremacy justify the wait? Flygon does have Crunch for Phoebe and Dragon Claw (assuming you travelled back to Meteor Falls to get it) for Drake, and seems like a great Pokemon to use against Steven if it has Earthquake and Flamethrower, but does it offer anything that can't be replaced? Glacia and Drake take it down too easily, too.
  15. JSND

    JSND

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    TBH i had some power issues with Flygon in Emerald, and its on 50s area
  16. BowlArt64

    BowlArt64

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    I think I've used Ralts in three playthroughs, and it's pretty Mid to High tier for me, leaning towards High pretty heavily. 5% encounter rate isn't as bad as it seems, and while you're looking for it, you could be training your starter and another Pokemon so you can focus more on Ralts once you get it. Bait and switch training for two levels this early in the game is easy, and once you get Confusion, it's great at taking down everything but Poochyena earlygame. Ralts itself isn't particularly fast or bulky, but it shouldn't have much trouble with Roxanne or Brawly, and should evolve by Wattson. Teleport is an earlygame pseudo-Fly, but Abra gets that too. Kirlia's alright, I guess. It's certainly nothing special at that point, but it's at least usable, getting Calm Mind a level after evolution. Once it hits lv. 26, Psychic augmented by Shock Wave pretty much carries it straight to Gardevoir, and it finally gets a major stat boost. Garde's Psychic is ridiculously strong, and depending on your willingness to spend a ton of money on coins or wait for New Mauville, it can get Thunderbolt to hit every common Dark. Of course, Shock Wave is also decent to help with Double Team spammers like Juan's Kingdra in Emerald. It grows pretty well alongside your starter and evolves at similar parts of the game. It can typically handle all the Zubat and Golbat that Aqua/Magma have very well, barring repeated Bite flinching or Wing Attack crits. The only bosses it really struggles with are Steven (not an issue in Emerald), Sydney, and Phoebe (who both usually dislike taking on starters), since Tate and Liza let you CM and your other Pokemon can deal with Claydol, after which you wall all their attacks and hit at least neutrally with an Electric move. Getting Calm Mind and Psychic without TMs (and earlygame-ish at that) is useful. The only real downside is that Thunderbolt is a useful TM, and if you want to give it to Manectric as well, for example, you're gonna have to spend some coin on coins. Compared to Kadabra and Alakazam, it is slower, bulkier, and has access to moves like Hypnosis and Thunderbolt (Calm Mind comes much earlier as well). 80 base Speed isn't really that slow, but it's no 105/120. You'll only really be outsped by some Manectric, Golbat if you have a -Spe nature and/or very few Speed EVs, and that one Crobat, which might outspeed Alakazam anyway (again, depending on nature and EVs). Kadabra and Alakazam really only have their speed, Recover, and more earlygame power, but Recover is hardly that useful on something with paper defenses. Both are excellent on the water routes with Psychic/Electric coverage. I'd usually end up with Calm Mind | Hypnosis | Psychic | Thunderbolt on Gardevoir.

    tl;dr:
    Pros
    -Thunderbolt
    -early Psychic and Calm Mind, both without TMs
    -Hypnosis, but that's only around the E4
    -special bulk
    -at least decent against most bosses, great against tons of random trainers

    Cons
    -stats are mostly ass until Gardevoir
    -lacks Recover
    -slower than some stuff
    -takes up a Tbolt TM that something else could maybe use, like Manectric or Magneton

    @Lucchini, Kirlia gets Magical Leaf in FRLG, but not RSE.
  17. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

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    Starmie definitely deserves High tier, in my opinion. You get it late, but it is useful in nearly every scenario following its capture.

    -If you skip Winona to get it, you have Thunderbolt/Ice Beam to use on it, and you aren't using the latter on anything else if Starmie is your Water-type. Surf alone will kill Tate and Liza since Starmie resists Psychic, and its Thunderbolt will defeat most of Wallace/Juan's team since it resists Water. Natural Cure even helps it out against Toxic, if you need multiple Thunderbolts to win. When it comes to the E4, it sweeps the last two and fares at least decently against the Champion, faring better against Steven than Wallace, IMO. Surf / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt (Or Thunder, even) / Recover will clean up real easily.

    I also think Treecko is getting an unnecessarily bad rap. It is one of those good at the start, average mid, gets better at the end type of pokemon that shouldn't be overlooked. Here's my reasoning, assuming Leaf Blade / Dragon Claw / Aerial Ace / Earthquake by the end.

    -Roxanne: Ends her.
    -Dewford to Brawly: Doesn't have any issues in the cave and even with Absorb it can defeat him pretty easily.
    -Slateport to Wattson: Mixed here. The trainers have pokemon that Grovyle will muscle through, with the exception of Magnets. In Emerald, it is also more useful against Manectric than Combusken is, though obviously Marshtomp wins.
    -Wattson to Flannery: Admittedly, it slows down here.
    -Flannery to Norman: Grovyle solos the desert and is decent against Norman, whose pokemon all have low SpD. It can survive a hit from Slaking, which puts it into Overgrow range and helps out somewhat, though multiple hits are out of the question. In the end, though, Norman 2HKOs everything so that isn't unusual.
    -Norman to Winona: Bug and Grass types galore, you won't be using it here. Nor will it be very useful in Winona's gym.
    -Winona to T&L: It gets better here, IMO. It can take on the trainers on the land routes and really starts to shine in the ocean where everything is water-type. The Psychic-types don't have the bulk to take it on and it can wrap up the gym leaders pretty quickly due to them being part Rock.
    -T&L to Water Gym: Again, more aquatic trainers = more wins for Sceptile. Leaf Blade covers what you need it to and Slam can honestly deal with everything else.

    After this point, you face the E4, which is diverse enough to where I think the each starter shines equally well. Speaking of:

    -Sydney: Sceptile kills his Water-types, isn't afraid of Mightyena, and also beats Cacturne/Shiftry with Aerial Ace.
    -Phoebe: I think Swampert does best here, but Sceptile and Blaziken are equal.
    -Glacia: Her Sealeo cannot take a Leaf Blade at all. Aurora Beam often fails to 2HKO and so Sceptile usually comes out on top, especially once Overgrow takes effect.
    -Drake: Dragon Claw can sweep her team, though even Leaf Blade will do against his two Flygon.
    -Champ: Sceptile owns Wallace, with the exception of maybe Gyarados. It is decidedly worse in RS, though it can still take on Aggron, Claydol, and Cradily.

    I think Treecko is Top, but I could see the argument for High as well.

    I'd also like to nominate Slakoth for Low. Truant sucks from the start, especially when you are weak to the first gym. You can do alright in the 2nd due to your high speed and power, but the 3rd gym resists you by way of Mags and Torkoal has high defense anyhow. Norman beats you, and then as a Slaking you are stuck with Truant again. It also needs the EQ and Shadow Ball TMs to be of use - it gets 1 hit every 2 turns, remember?
  18. DHR-107

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    Errr... It has no need for Recover ingame, so that is hardly a con. You have healing items. I'd say mid, but only because it's so bad for so long. Ralts dies to pretty much any physical move. Even a Shroomish tackle does a fair bit. But Gardevoir does pretty much curbstomp half the game with CM/Psychic/Tbolt.

    Just like to mention Torkoal for Mid too... Packs a fair punch and neutral Physical hits barely do anything, gets Body Slam to help with its awful speed. Problem is it's usually not that helpful at Gyms/E4, apart from maybe sponging Facades from Slaking. (Oh, and murdering Metagross).
  19. TM13IceBeam

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    Magical Leaf can only be move tutor'd in FRLG iirc.

    I do feel that Treecko is meh because its offenses seriously suck lategame. There's so much you can do with Leaf Blade, and iirc every member of the E4 packed Ice Beam so my Sceptile really had a problem lategame (it was like L53 or so... >.>)

    Besides, the Dragon Claw TM requires a very long detour through Meteor Falls, and Aerial Ace doesn't help much of its coverage. EQ is also unique iirc. I'm not sure if Sceptile really needs to suck 3 unique TMs in order to be effective...

    For Slakoth, I guess another way is to keep it as Vigoroth? Or if you're on Shift, Slaking would be a good idea since you can annihilate something with Hyper Beam and switch out after.
  20. Advancer

    Advancer

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    I have not played Emerald in some time but I do have some thoughts on the Pokemon that I used, and also others that I have given some thought to for a future playthrough on my new (but second-hand) Emerald cart.


    I'll start by saying that I feel Treecko is High/Mid Tier. As an offensive Pokemon it has strong STAB and high speed, but a movepool that leaves much to be desired. The only other Special move it learns by level-up is Pursuit, which is rather situational, and probably not worthy of a moveslot when it could be using Quick Attack for priority. It does learn a fair number of useful attacks through TMs, such as Earthquake, Brick Break, Aerial Ace and Dragon Claw, but almost all of these are better used on other Pokemon. On the support side, it I found it to be a reliable user of Toxic and Substitute. I'm inclined to say that Treecko is most useful as supporting attacker rather than an all-out attacker. Now, onto its matchups:

    Show Hide
    Gym Matchups
    Roxanne: Cleans the house.
    Brawly: IIRC somewhat effective
    Wattson: Good matchup, but struggles against Magnemite/Magneton.
    Flannery: No chance
    Norman: It is stronger by this point, but it doesn't have enough defense to take many of the STAB normal attacks that are thrown at you
    Winona: All of her Pokemon have Aerial Ace, so not really
    Tate+Liza: Has super effective moves on Claydol, Lunatone and Solrock, but must watch out for Solrock's Flamethrower
    Wallace/Juan(E): Good type matchup, but Ice type moves on bulky Sealeo and Milotic/Kingdra are a
    hindrance.

    E4 Matchup
    Sidney: Can't really hurt Cacturne or Shiftry, otherwise okay.
    Phoebe: It's okay, but don't waste time with Pursuit - STAB Leaf Blade is better.
    Glacia: Poor matchup
    Drake: If taught Dragon Claw [TM02] it can use its higher speed to score revenge kills, but otherwise poor matchup.
    Steven (R/S): Despite Steven's slower mons, it is generally a poor matchup with most of his mons resisting your stab while carrying strong STAB moves of their own.
    Wallace (E): At first it looks like a good matchup, but it needs support to get past Tentacruel, Gyarados, and Milotic. Can handle Wailord and Whiscash without much help.



    I agree that Torchic should be High/Top Tier. It is undoubtedly the premier offensive Hoenn starter, as its eventual Fire/Fighting coverage is superb and is effective in most situations. At Lv. 16 it learns Double Kick, and upon evolving at Lv. 36 it learns Blaze Kick. With these two moves, plus priority in Quick Attack, it is set to go. If Double Kick seems weak, it can learn Focus Punch (from Route 115), but is better off using Bulk Up which also raises the power of Quick Attack, along with the TMs Rock Tomb, Aerial Ace and Earthquake. Oh, and Brick Break - but that comes a bit late, and Blaziken learns the better Sky Uppercut at Lv. 50.


    Show Hide
    Gym Matchups
    Roxanne: As with Charmander v. Brock it struggles, but with if you are persistent you'll prevail.
    Brawly: Good.
    Wattson: Good.
    Flannery: Have to rely on Fighting STAB, note that Slugma (R/S) carries Rock Slide and Numel (E) carries Magnitude.
    Norman: Fighting STAB proves its worth.
    Winona: Although her Pokemon have Aerial Ace, it can hurt Skarmory and Tropius (E) with its Fire STAB.
    Tate+Liza: It doesn't do all that well, most of its TM moves are resisted or negated
    Wallace/Juan(E): It doesn't like water, but its fighting STAB can be used against Sealeo and Crawdaunt (R/S)


    E4 Matchup
    Sidney: It's super effective!
    Phoebe: If you stick to your Fire STAB you should be fine.
    Glacia:
    It's super effective!
    Drake: Not good here
    Steven (R/S): It is effective against many of Steven's mons, but must be wary as everything except Skarmory carries either Ancientpower or Earthquake
    Wallace (E): Blaziken doesn't like water


    The current on-site tier list has Lotad (S/E only) as High Tier, but I feel it should be Mid Tier. It may come early and have good typing, but the only STAB grass move it learns by level-up is Absorb and it can't learn any water-type moves until you acquire HM03 Surf. It can use the Bullet Seed TM, otherwise it has to wait until mid/late game for a better Grass type TM. Its abilities are dependent on rain and are useless in gym matches unless you carry rain dance. It requires a water stone to fully evolve, of which there is only one (in the Abandoned Ship) unless you collect shards for the Diver, but that does come rather late and by then you might rather use it on a Staryu. Outside of its early usefulness against Roxanne, without a decent water STAB it isn't useful against Flannery, but later it can be useful against Tate and Liza with Surf (but there are better users of this move). In all, I believe Lotad is a rather average choice for anyone but Torchic users, so I recommend it be moved to Mid Tier.


    Tailow comes early, has early Wing Attack, is useful against Brawly, and from then on is good hit-and-run mon. It does have poor defenses, but with careful predictation it can use Endeavor. It is useful early on but to be honest I dropped it shortly after Norman, as it using it doesn't bring you much of an advantage in any of the later battles. It does learn Fly, and that is always nice. I'd say High Tier. I should note I have never used Wingull (which also gets early Wing Attack) so I can't say if one is more useful than the other.


    I used Ralts in both of my Emerald runs and I have to say it is a reliable special attacker, that is, for the less fortunate player (i.e. me) who is unable to trade for the better Alakazam. Although it won't have an attacking move when you catch it, after a few minutes in the grass it learns Confusion and is immediately useful against Roxanne and Brawly. As has been mentioned already, it learns Calm Mind at level 21 and Psychic at level 26. It doesn't have any coverage moves, but it does learn the awesome Thunderbolt (which I used) and Shock Wave (a good alternative if you are saving Thunderbolt for something else). Both of its abilities, particularly Trace, are very useful to have. I'd say High/Top Tier because of Trace, early Calm Mind, and TBolt. Note that Alakazam's access to recover and its higher SpA make it a more solid choice... but only by a little.

    Show Hide
    Gym Matchups
    Roxanne: Good (Geodude has low SpD, but Nosepass is tougher)
    Brawly: Great.
    Wattson: Good if you have Synchronise, but has trouble with Magnemite/Magneton.
    Flannery: With Calm Mind, this gym should be a gentle breeze.
    Norman: Kirlia/Gardevoir have weaker defense but can set up on Slaking's truant turn.
    Winona: If it knows Shock Wave or ThunderBolt it can rip through her team, and Psychic will cover Altaria and Tropius (E)
    Tate+Liza: Its STAB is resisted but it can use SWave/Tbolt against anything not named Claydol, and can sponge most special attacks thrown at it.
    Wallace/Juan(E): Once again
    SWave/Tbolt are very good moves to have here, and it is a strong option if you chose Torchic as your starter.

    E4 Matchup
    Sidney: Nope
    Phoebe: Poor matchup
    Glacia: A Calm Mind or two can keep away the cold

    Drake: Gardevoir's weaker defense will probably let it down
    Steven (R/S): Several of Steven's mons resist your STAB, but won't enjoy SWave/Tbolt should you get in a Calm Mind or two.
    Wallace (E):
    SWave/Tbolt is the be-all, end-all of Gardevoir. If you have it here... you really only have to fear Leech Seed from Ludicolo, and to a lesser extent, Toxic from Tentacruel and Milotic.



    Oh god, Aron. You know, I wish I had good things to say about its moveset but I don't. Metal Claw is about the only good level-up move it has, unless you're keen on Take Down + Rock Head - and then, it evolves late, and its excellent Defence is made redundant by its double weakness to Fighting and Ground, plus its poor SpD and weakness to Water. You could teach it Rock Tomb for STAB, but honestly... it's best used as a steel sponge while you heal or revive something else. Low Tier.


    IIRC Makuhita is caught in the same place as Aron and has more useful typing for STAB moves. It evolves at the nice Lv. 26, just in time for taking on Norman... after which point you'll probably drop it as the next two gyms are rather harsh on it. Although it is rather shallow for coverage moves, it does have access to Fake Out and Whirlwind which are nice utility moves on it for the mid-game, but if utility is not your thing you can catch the similar but more powerful Machop a little later instead. Mid Tier.


    Electrike is the best 'fast' Electric-Type available to players. It can be caught somewhat early, and evolves at Lv. 26. It has a good priority move in Quick Attack, coverage in Bite, and can learn Rain Dance to support its teammates and power up Thunder, should one choose to use the Thunderbolt TM on something else (e.g. Gardevoir). It is good against Winona, Wallace/Juan, and rather reliable against other Gym/E4 such as Tate+Liza, Sidney, Phoebe, Glacia, and Wallace in Emerald. Sadly, the single role it can fulfill is that of the fast and frail special attacker - and as SWave Alakazam (faster and stronger) and SWave/Tbolt Gardevoir (earlier and stronger) can also do this, training Manectric all the way to E4 is not as worthwhile as it might seem. High/Mid Tier.

    ...

    I haven't written a post this long in some time, and it is rather late so before I wrap up a few other bite-size bits: in Emerald I have also used Shroomish/Breloom (didn't use it all that well), Slaking (it ate my Shadow Ball TM), Feebas/Milotic (aided by emulator speed button), bred and raised a DD Salamence for E4 (emulator, teamed with Sceptile), and Rayquaza (I was short on time and felt like backbenching Blaziken). I haven't started a new game on my cart yet, but I'll probably go with Treecko again (favourite!) and try out mons such as: Wingull, Magnemite, Numel, Torkoal, Skarmory, and/or Spheal. In the meantime I'll keep up with this thread. I hope this post has been helpful.
  21. CTNC

    CTNC

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    452
    I'm surprised that Makuhita is listed Mid Tier on site. I understand that it's slow and maybe outclassed by Torchic, but in my Emerald nuzlock he was a boss. He pulled his own weight before evo and post evo the next two gyms were jokes. Ironically he died against Norman (I used a Super Potion while Linoone used Belly Drum then Crited me with Slash) but when I got another one in Victory Road the first three Elite 4 were pushovers although I did use Earthquake on the second one. If Torchic gets Top Tier then Makuhita should get High Tier.

    Edit: On site it says that Makuhita has TM Reliance but with Vital Throw and Strength means you only get walled by ghost. Your only way past Ghost is Earthquake, but that's why you have other Pokemon. Also at above, It's level 24 not 26

    Edit 2:
    Responses are in bold.
  22. JSND

    JSND

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    951
    @Advancer : By your long posts i think Treecko fits in Mid Tier at best
  23. RedMeowth

    RedMeowth

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2007
    Messages:
    132
    I nominate Tentacool for Mid Tier, at least.

    Availability: You can catch a Tentacool as soon as you get the Old Rod from Dewford Town (just before your second badge). He’s also extremely common to find in areas that you have to Surf on, which would be after the 5th badge and throughout the last 30% or so of the game. I should note that by THIS point, Tentacool is actually more useful than when you can first catch him.

    Stats: Great speed and fantastic Special Defense. 80 Special Attack isn’t great but it’s good enough for him to launch Special attacks.

    Movepool: Here’s where Tentacool starts to flounder. If you catch Tentacool as soon as you can, he will only have Poison Sting and maybe Supersonic. His level-up movepool is pretty barren and pointless up until Level 25, when he FINALLY learns a decent Water move in Bubblebeam. Until then, he has to make due with Acid and Cut for damage. The rest of his level-up pool is made mainly of support moves like Confuse Ray and Barrier. Where Tentacool / Tentacruel shines in moves is the TM moves he can learn. Ice Beam, Giga Drain, and Sludge Bomb are all good choices for the jellyfish, although the latter two are scarce. If you’d rather not use Tentacool for battle, though, he also makes a very efficient HM slave, learning Cut, Surf, Waterfall, and Dive. Between him and Tropius, you can have every HM move you could want in just two Pokemon (it’s a bit late for Flash, but nobody cares about Flash).

    Type: Tentacool is a Water and Poison Pokemon. It’s nice early on to have at least one Pokemon that can’t be poisoned, and Water Pokemon are themselves resistant to Water attacks, which will be very common late-game, especially in Sapphire and Emerald. On offense, it’s actually a pretty good combination, too. Poison attacks will basically hit everything that resists Water aside from other Tentacool.

    Match-Ups:
    Brawly: Poison Pokemon don’t have to worry about taking much damage from Fighting attacks unless Tentacool is totally untrained.
    Wattson: Although he has high Special Defense, Tentacool will not appreciate being hit by Shock Waves or Sparks. This is not his fight.
    Flannery: If he knows Bubblebeam, this is actually a great chance for him to gain experience. Torkoal’s Body Slam can be a pain if she uses that, but being tolerant to Overheat is a big help here.
    Norman: Not a stellar match-up here, due to Tentacruel’s rather low Defense. Slaking and even Vigoroth are dangerous for him.
    Winona: At this point, Tentacruel should know Surf. That might afford him a chance against Winona’s Skarmory. If he knows Sludge Bomb, it will be useful against Pelipper and Tropius (in Emerald). Beware Altaria’s Earthquake, though.
    Team Magma: The Numel can use Magnitude or Earthquake. But they are extremely slow and should die to a single Surf. Pretty even match-ups with Poochyena and Zubat that tip in Tentacruel’s favor.
    Team Aqua: The Carvanha and Sharpedo resist Water moves, but they are rather weak to Sludge Bomb, as well as other non-contact physical moves.
    Tate & Liza: On one hand, Tentacruel is weak to Psychic moves. On the other hand, he has high Special Defense, and he can use Surf to deal a lot of damage to Lunatone and Solrock. In Emerald, he won’t want to be on the front lines, but once Claydol (and maybe Xatu) goes down, he can lash out against the meteorites.
    Juan: Resists Water Pulse and strikes back well against most of the rest of his team. He should avoid the Ground-type Whiscash, however.
    Sidney: Tentacruel is still weak to physical attacks, which Sidney’s Pokemon typically favor. Surf for Mightyena and Absol, Sludge Bomb for Shiftry, Cacturne, and Sharpedo / Crawdaunt.
    Phoebe: Tentacruel’s attacks aren’t really getting past the Dusclops, and one of them knows Earthquake. Fairly even match otherwise, but it’s more in Phoebe’s favor.
    Glacia: Tentacruel takes Ice attacks (other than Sheer Cold) like a gangster of the sea. Sludge Bomb is probably not going to be good enough to fight the Sealeo, though.
    Drake: Unless Tentacruel knows Ice Beam, this is a battle in Drake’s favor. Most of his Pokemon are physically based, and all of them resist Surf except Flygon, who also strikes one of Tentacruel’s weaknesses.
    Wallace: Once again, he tolerates Water attacks well, especially coming from the weakest Champion ever. Whiscash is dangerous, as usual. Very nice to have super-effective attacks for Ludicolo in the form of Sludge Bomb.
    Steven: Half of Steven’s Pokemon are weak to Surf, and the other half are hit for neutral damage. The closest thing he has to a Water resistance is Cradily, and she’s still hit for neutral damage from Surf or Sludge Bomb.

    Overall: Tentacruel is not a massive juggernaut that plows through everything. In fact, he’s quite squishy at first. But once he's trained up, he is tough against powerful attack types like Fire, Water, and Ice and deals surprisingly impressive damage right back. He also finds value as an HM slave if you would rather not fight with him, but Tentacruel is a useful Pokemon no matter which way you use him. It is hard to ignore his patheticness in the first 25 levels of life, though.
  24. Manveru123

    Manveru123

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2012
    Messages:
    204
    Vital Throw is a decreased priority move. Wastes time and you get hit. Brick Break (TM) is stronger and has normal priority.
    Strength has 80 BP. Return (TM) has up to 102. That's quite a big difference.
    That's what it means. Without TMs this guy is forced to use largely inferior moves. And if you have to rely on other pokemon to beat something that completely walls you, you're not high material at all, mr Makuhita!

    Mid is perfectly fine for him.
  25. Lucchini

    Lucchini

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    323
    Makuhita should be High IMHO. The traded Makit grows really fast in RSE, and the fighting typing really helps against Magneton and Slaking, who are two of the most challenging gym Pokemon midgame, and later on he really helps against Sydney and Glacia. Bulk Up is very nice on it.

    Also, not being able to hit some types (which isn't completely right as Makuhita has KNOCK OFF... yeah I know, I know) doesn't make a Pokemon worthless in tier listings. Bulbasaur is Top in RBY, yet it struggles to hit those ghosts and poisons. Makuhita is a quickly growing Pokemon whose only STAB is of great utility on your playthroughs, and his only weakness is that speed stat, which is indeed quite a problem. If it's not outspeeding though, it might as well use Vital Throw as it's got nothing to lose. Otherwise, you still have Arm Thrust and could use Rock Smash instead for guaranteed 40 BP before that stupidly late Brick Break TM.

    Slakoth could be higher than Low, really. Its bases get good when it evolves into Vigoroth as early as L18 and from there it can fights for itself very well. As Slaking, its performance only gets better, I would argue - you just switch him out after defeating something. With colossal attack power, it can OHKO plenty of enemies with just Slash, and by giving him any of Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Shadow Ball you give him a chance to contribute to your endgame owning as well. Its special attack is about as good as Starmie's after all.

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