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R/S/E In-Game Tier List Discussion

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Zystral, Aug 19, 2012.

  1. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Just as an FYI... Tentacool is available much earlier than the moment you start Surfing... you can acutally catch them via an Old Rod in Dewford City, which is right before the second gym.

    I got a lot of Pokemon I have used and I'll update this post later on about almost all of them
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Well, I definitely think E4 members and Gym Leader match ups should be held in higher self-esteem than Team Aqua battles.
  3. NoUserName

    NoUserName

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    I disagree since Team Aqua/Magma battles are common and they use the same 3-4 mons.

    For instance, Bulbasaur in RBY/FRLF loses usefulness mostly because it has a bad matchup against Poison Pokemon of Rockets'.

    I quote myself about Feebas in bottom:

    Also growing berries in order to envolve it isn't a good method to finish quickly the game(That hardly matters since Feebas is almost impossible to find)

    I have never tried Chinchou, but being Top being accessible after getting the 7th badge, mediocre stats bar HP(not strong neither fast), only useful against Wallace/Juan(and maaaaybe against Glacia and Drake(wasting 4000 coins TM or do the Abandoned Ship side quest...) (Kyogre smashes all of them)...

    This sounds that Chinchou should be Mid at best.
  4. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    By that logic, everything in Sapphire is moved to Mid due to us being forced to solo the game with Kyogre from that point onwards apparently. Don't forget the games where Kyogre doesn't exist, too.

    I'd say access to Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam (the latter two can be obtained pretty easily without the substantial monetary investment in these games) is just good enough for the portion of the game where Lanturn is available. Lanturn may not have the best offensive stats, but it's got the typing that walls the water-type specialists, Glacia and certain pokes like Skarmory pretty well, while striking back with SE STABs. Starmie has nearly the same availability as Chinchou, gets Psychic (which isn't worth much at that point), more speed but lacks the bulk and the STAB on Thunderbolt.
  5. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    There's also the problem of Lanturn being terribly underleveled for that point in the game. That's a problem for all of the sea denizens, though (barring Magikarp, Wingull and Tentacool, since you get them pretty early on). Chinchou's probably the best of the sea creatures, though. It's offensive and defensive stats are juuuust good enough to keep it alive.

    I highly disagree with it being Top, however. Its stats are just good enough, nothing too spectacular, and you get it after Gym 7, which really wrecks its usefulness when you would have really wanted it. Also, remember that being resistant to Glacia's not exactly a big thing since she has that Sheer Cold Walrein that can wreck your day.

    I'd prefer Starmie, because at least I'd have something fast to take out Flygon and not get OHKO'd by it. That's a pretty big issue that makes Starmie a much better Ice Beam user than Tentacruel (who was the one I used in my latest RSE adventure) or Lanturn; it outspeeds and OHKOs without risk of OHKO back, also walls Water types easily, also wrecks Skarm, has a field day against Drake (who walks all over Lanturn, truth be told), and also contributes a lot to the fight against Steven (Starmie outspeeds and OHKOs the silly Special Attacking Aggron, scores strong neutral hits against Metagross while outspeeding it, something that Lanturn doesn't do, and scores SE hits on the rest of his team, while Lanturn risks being outsped by Aggron (iirc) and Armaldo, and is outsped and OHKO'd by Metagross).

    Sadly, I'd much prefer using Staryu over Chinchou.
  6. Lucchini

    Lucchini

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    If you want to compare Lanturn and Starmie, then it doesn't hurt to remember that Chinchou actually comes 5 levels above Staryu. However, Starmie does have the opportunity to train against Liza and Tate, where Lanturn also wishes it could have present to be useful.

    Walrein does threaten with an (unlikely) OHKO, but that applies to everybody who doesn't OHKO him and everybody who OHKOs but doesn't outspeed (which is a lot of mons; even Blaziken sometimes). Starmie is also at risk of OHKO since its Thunderbolt is weaker than Lanturn's. Likewise, Lanturn should be outspeeding Aggron with speed EVs compensating for the slight difference in levels.

    You're right about Metagross indeed (Starmie's typing is great for this), but that's only a problem in RS. In Emerald, you have another water-type guy and the one with the STAB hits the hardest there.

    Also don't forget about the first two E4 members, against whom you may not have any super-effective moves (more likely Phoebe since there's a high likelihood of you having a fighting-type). Starmie doesn't watch any Crunches or Shadow Punches being thrown its way so you don't use it here at all. Lanturn can fill in and take something one-on-one with ease however.

    So I wouldn't be so fast to proclaim Staryu's superiority.

    Both should be in High tier IMO, due to their late availability.
  7. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Don't be so quick to think that Lanturn's STAB T-Bolt is stronger than Starmie's. Lanturn has 76 Base SpAtk while Starmie has Base 100. That's a pretty large difference, and if Lanturn does end up having the stronger T-bolt, it'll only be a minute difference. Starmie also happens to be able to solo Drake, while Lanturn can't kill Flygon because it's outsped and OHKO'd itself by EQ. Getting STAB on T-Bolt is fine, but I don't see how it's gonna be stronger simply because of STAB.

    I still would say Mid for Lanturn, because its late availablilty and lackluster stats kinda hinder it, even if it does get STAB T-Bolt (you don't have an Electric type already?)
  8. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Lv50 Lanturn's Thunderbolt (15 IV, Neutral, 128 EV) vs. Lv53 Walrein (25 IV, Neutral, 0 EV): 102 - 160 (52%-61.2%)
    Lv50 Starmie's Thunderbolt (same conditions) vs. same Walrein: 82 - 98 (41.8 - 50%)

    Glacia's Walrein may not necessarily have 25 IVs in Special Defense, but Lanturn has a better chance of 2HKO on Walrein than Starmie. Starmie is having roughly 70% of Lanturn's firepower with Tbolt. This is definitely not a minute difference. Granted, I'm not really sure how high-levelled would a typical party be at E4 (the only thing i can ever remember is smashing them with an overlevelled blaziken) but if anything this is probably it.

    Honestly both are interchangeable imo.

    and uh if you'd
    Lv53 Flygon's Earthquake (25 IV, neutral, 0 EV) on Lv52 Lanturn (15 IV, neutral, 128 EV): 152 - 180 (73.1% - 86.5%) Lanturn is really only OHKO'd if he has like, no defense EVs (which isn't likely seeing as you probably use him to murder geodudes in victory road or something)
  9. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    or use Hariyama which after 1 setup turn ohkoes the whole e4
  10. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    Remember that Lanturn has to get to Flygon with its...meh speed, which means that 2HKO will probably turn into an OHKO. Still, I severely underestimated STAB.
  11. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Ice Beam by Lanturn is almost an OHKO on Flygon. Blizzard is a definite OHKO, as is NeverMeltIce-boosted Ice Beam. Not sure how you're going to go with that...

    L52 Lanturn IB (15, neutral, 128) vs. L53 Flygon (25, neutral, 0) = 95% - 112.5%
  12. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    The main problem I had with Starmie is that its part Psychic, making it vulnerable to the first two Elite 4 members. Even Drake's Pokemon pack Dark moves, so at least make sure you are high enough of a level to outspeed his team before you sweep.

    But other than that, Ice moves easily sweep Drake. Hell, I just got done watching a video of someone sweeping all but his Salamence with a fricken Gyarados, who only has 60 Base SpA.

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