OU RBY OU Ladder / "Jank" Discussion Thread

[Sevi 7]

Dropping some teams now that I’ve become disillusioned with competitive Pokémon. I don’t think these teams are necessarily jank, because i think they’re competitively viable, but they’re probably not teams you’d end up using outside of ladder.

Double Water Double Rock
This is my version of that old Rhydon + Oma team that was used in SPL like 5 years ago. Innovmania was recently playing the original version on ladder, and it inspired me to make my own version. Laxless Egg + Oma works similar to the Laxless Egg + Gar teams that used to get used like 10 years ago. Oma can come in on B Slam or H Beam and hit back hard with HPump. If Lax has IB then it’ll lose to Oma in the 1v1 (barring RNG), and if it’s EQ, then Egg switches in and threatens with sleep or Psychic. You just need to scout the Lax set a little, but it’s not hard to do. The team works surprisingly well. It’s the most success I’ve ever had with Oma tbh. Also, Sub absolutely works over Counter. After Oma dies, some people assume you don’t have a good HBeam sponge after Oma dies so you can take advantage of that by have Don take Crit HBeam and KOing back with the counter.


Lead Chansey + Back Mie + BroDon
I really like GolDon + Bro teams, but I don’t like to play them traditionally. I like going for a more offensive strat and use Golem to wallbreak for Slowbro, or use Slowbro to wallbreak for Rhydon. I don’t care about the usual switch situations and pressure you put on teams like JoltCloy. With that in mind, I was playing a more traditional version of the team with lead Mie, but I didn’t like the interactions with opposing para leads. Being able to put an opposing para lead to sweep is the best situation for the strat I’m going for, but Jynx and Egg don’t really fit well on this team, and Gar doesn’t help against para leads. Plus Mie in the back is really nice if it doesn’t become my sleep fodder. So I made Chansey my lead sleep mon. Against Mie or Zam, stay in and go for Sing, but otherwise switch to Mie to take the sleep. You can definitely change up every mon’s moveset to fit your needs/playstyle. Sometimes I’ll change it up before I even load the team if i feel like I need TWave on Chansey or Surf on Bro, or w/e.


Counter Jynx + Egg Bomb Egg + Zapdos
This might be the most competitively viable team and it’s absolutely something you can run in a tour. That’s mostly because there’s nothing unique about this team, except for the two movesets. Counter Jynx is really nice sometimes. LK the lead and click Blizzard as they go Lax. They’ll click B Slam and you can use Counter to OHKO Lax after the Blizzard chip damage. Now, Lax is dead and you’re basically playing 5v4. Counter doesn’t always come into play, and the early game doesn’t always line up like that, but it happens enough where it’s a legitimate option over Rest.
As for Egg Bomb, DE’s recoil makes a difference vs Rhydon. After using DE twice vs Jynx and/or Zam, or once vs Chansey, Egg can only switch into Rhydon twice. But without that recoil, Egg can switch in a third time, which really helps support Zap. Egg Bomb’s accuracy can suck, and you may want to think about Strength instead, but it’s up to you to decide in the end.


Tauros + JoltCloy + LapDon + Art
My magnum opus. I was thinking that this might actually be a tournament viable team (it’s not). This team is Hyper Offense and you’ll be rewarded for playing it like that. The worse thing about this team is how susceptible it is to bad RNG. Missing a couple of attacks or getting para’d a few times can be huge, and can sometimes cost the game. Also Tauros lead is better against sleepers and Lax lead is better vs para leads. So think of which one you’ll be playing more and choose that one.


Back Mie + Growl Persian
This is the second most competitively viable team and is also something that you can use in a tour. It’s a pretty standard Jynx + Mie team. I just added Persian for the late game. And you absolutely want to reveal this thing in the late game, because you want it to go up against Tauros, where you’ll use Slash first , then Growl as Tauros uses HBeam ( HBeam doesn’t kill Persian at -1) and you can Slash twice as Tauros recharges. The rest of the team is pretty standard, but this is my favorite Persian set and my favorite Persian team.


Water + Ground + Electric
Back in 2015/16 I made so many teams with
Water Ground and Electric cores. It’s honestly a good core that should be tried a little more, In the current meta, I don’t think the core is as good as it was in the Big 4 days, so it’s hard to justify over teams with Lax, but I think it’s still something that could be your viable. If you’re like the core, cores with Lapras are legitimate as well. But then you’re better off with Sing Lapras and no Jynx and I think that’s less reliable. You can also try it with Sandslash. I saw somebody else have some success with that not too long ago, and the team looked fun as well.


Gar + Jynx + JoltCloy
When everyone and their mother was running JynxMie on the ladder, this team was fun. Explode on Jynx, and go into your own Jynx to make the game 5v4. Then go offensive from there. Ice Beam Jynx is meant to take on Chansey by freezing it, and the lack of power can hurt, but it’s usually worth the extra pp for Chansey. This isn’t a normal JoltCloy team and you’ll want to focus on the team’s offense rather than the defense like the normal cores.

That’s it for now. I know I have some more juicy teams somewhere, like a Poliwrath team or two and a Pory + Zap team. But I have teams across so many devices/google docs that it’s hard for me to track them all down. If I find them, I’ll post them here though. Hope you enjoy these at least.

 

[brookman]

been a while but I was brought out of my relatively brief hiatus by gambler keegan videos and as such I have some fresh jank to share.

I see you've all been chewing on sevi's high quality post for a while so allow me to lower the standard quite a bit. (although I will borrow the format)


UUBL Jank

Hypno is running meditate + headbutt to troll starmie/zam/chansey leads and encourage switching to spread more para.

Lapras and Hypno do an enormous amount of work while dragonite and victreebel are secretly there just to be a back up thunderwaves for golem/persian support late game (although sometimes wrap is kinda nice)

team kinda auto-loses to jynx lead (switching persian in to sleep sack or gambit a LK miss can be a play, or some a few other 'desperation' gambits can work but. .. . ) also, gengar invalidates at least half the team.

 

[Billybobman]

I’ve become disillusioned with competitive Pokémon. I don’t think these teams are necessarily jank, because I think they’re competitively viable, but they’re probably not teams you’d end up using outside of ladder.

I know what you mean.

Here is something that I think is fun:

Bide Snorlax

Snorlax
Ability: No Ability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Body Slam
- Reflect
- Bide
- Rest

Bide is an interesting move, it either does 2*(2Y or 3Y) times the initial damage that is stored. If the damage is stored once, it will keep on storing that same damage even if the opponent avoids damaging Lax. It is a fun mind game type of move. Sometimes just using it will make the opposing lax switch. In gen 1 you can switch out of Bide. It out damages Ice Beam lax because it always does double the damage it takes. It also avoids Counter due to being typeless. I think it might be better than Counter+Reflect Lax, not sure about Toxic+Reflect.

But you do need to keep in mind that you will want to outspeed opposing Lax to store the intial damage. Chansey and Rhydon are likely the mons that will try to absorb the hit. Substitute is probably the best option for beating it.

 

[Ortheore]

Hereby announcing a new project: RBY OU Extended Viability Rankings! This was discussed with Sabelette and approved, and if it gains traction it can be moved to the OP

The goal of this project is to rank every single fully evolved Pokemon in RBY based on viability, as well as notable NFEs. The goal of this project is to promote discussion on the lesser used Pokemon in RBY, while also keeping such discussion clear of the official VR thread. Here's how this will work:

• Pokemon will be ranked based on subjective evaluation of the discussion that occurs in this thread. I will be the one doing the evaluating, but I'm open to other people sharing this role- the main criteria would be a history of competent tournament performances and proven experimentation with niche Pokemon
• Pokemon that are ranked D or above in the official VR (in bold) are not up for discussion and these rankings will always be based on the official VR. If you wish to discuss the official VR, you are welcome to go to the corresponding thread.
  • Officially ranked Pokemon cannot be moved into different tiers
  • They cannot be swapped amongst themselves
  • If you feel a Pokemon not on the official VR is better than one that is, you can argue for it to be ranked above it, though this would be a high bar to clear
• This will see the E tier split into numerical subsections, in order of viability. Pokemon within these subsections will not be ordered, unless they're on the official VR
• There will also be an F tier created. I've written my own definition for this, suggestions for improving this are strongly encouraged
• Practical experience is key. Please try to discuss Pokemon that you have used.
  • Obviously this may be in relation to other Pokemon that you might not have experience with. For example, I've used Magneton and think it's better than Blastoise, despite having never used Blastoise
  • Replays are also very welcome in this discussion to either demonstrate your point or at the very least show that you've used the Pokemon you're discussing

It's important to note that these rankings use a highly subjective methodology, and are based on limited practical experience. Therefore, although we'll aim to provide a guide on viability beyond the official VR, these rankings may be prone to significant inaccuracies. As I said earlier, the goal is more for discussion than anything else.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team. The roles these Pokemon can fulfill are crucial, if not mandatory, for RBY teams and these Pokemon are the best at their certain roles.

Tauros
Snorlax
Chansey

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RBY metagame. These Pokemon pose a significant offensive or defensive threat to most teams. If these Pokemon have flaws, they are often outshown by their strengths.
Starmie
Exeggutor
Alakazam

B1 Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are very good in the RBY metagame, yet are somewhat inconsistent. These Pokemon may have flaws, but they have positive aspects which makes them stand out, making them valuable members of a team.
Rhydon
Zapdos
Gengar
Cloyster
Jynx

B2 Rank:
Slowbro
Jolteon

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have solid niches in the RBY metagame, but nonetheless are generally inconsistent. These Pokemon have definite flaws, but may have positive aspects which can make them worth using.
Lapras
Persian
Articuno
Victreebel
Moltres
Dragonite

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RBY metagame, but are decent enough to pose a threat at times, usually out of surprise. These Pokemon have a small niche in the metagame and are often not worth using.
Porygon
Golem
Kingler
Sandslash
Hypno
Kabutops

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are very mediocre, they are very dependent on surprising the opponent to pose any threat. These Pokemon are almost entirely outclassed, with little to no niche, they are rarely worth using.

E1 Rank:
Kangaskhan
Poliwrath
Venusaur
Raichu
Raticate
Machamp
Clefable
Omastar

E2 Rank:
Dodrio
Flareon
Gyarados
Pinsir

E3 Rank:
Golduck
Hitmonlee
Kadabra
Lickitung
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Rapidash

E4 Rank:
Aerodactyl
Arbok
Charizard
Dugtrio
Nidoking
Tangela
Tentacruel

E5 Rank:
Electrode
Muk
Onix
Vaporeon

E6 Rank:
Electabuzz
Magneton
Mr. Mime
Poliwhirl
Primeape
Vileplume
Wigglytuff

F rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are generally not usable whatsoever. Whatever positive traits they have, if any, are overwhelmed by their negative traits. They are either outclassed or simply lack an effective niche.

F1 Rank:

Arcanine
Dewgong
Magmar
Scyther
Weezing

F2 Rank:
Blastoise
Haunter
Hitmonchan
Parasect

F3 Rank:
Dragonair
Fearow
Marowak
Venomoth

F4 Rank:
Beedrill
Farfetch'd
Pidgeot
Seadra

F5 Rank:
Butterfree
Golbat
Seaking

F6 Rank:
Ditto

 

[Ortheore]

Following on from the previous post: if you have any suggestions for the definition of F rank, or if you'd rather it be reworked so there's no arbitrary line between usable and not usable, I'm happy to hear it

Also I have not tested every Pokemon in the game. Many of these rankings were based on theorymon, so I fully expect that there are some accidental bad takes mixed among them. If so, let me know, let's discuss it :)

Of the Pokemon not on the official VR, these are the ones that I think I can reasonably say that I have practical experience with:

• Flareon - actually an extremely potent attacker, but does nothing defensively and is difficult to bring in
• Gyarados - like Flareon, it's quite a potent attacker, but has far greater issues with Starmie and Chansey thanks to its Electric weakness. Better defensively though, Gengar is a great teammate for it
• Kadabra - surprisingly decent as a lead, works like a slightly worse version of a Zam lead. Restricts teambuilding since you're only running this alongside Alakazam, which in turn exposes a physical weakness. Can also be used outside the lead position, though this makes teambuilding much harder and is generally less optimal
• Magneton - good stats, Reflect makes it effective against Lax, but mono-coverage means it's incredibly prone to bad matchups and also it's not great against Egg and Chansey
• Poliwhirl - this is actually a legitimate threat, but it's sooooo unreliable. Very much a glass cannon as well

• Hitmonchan - having a super effective STAB against the 3 most important Pokemon in the game makes it quite a lot better than many other Pokemon in F. However Psychics exist, other Fighting types almost entirely outclass it, it dies to everything and Submission is an awful move to have as your main STAB
• Marowak -fairly weak attacker that's outclassed by other Ground types. Still, it has some defensive utility, which is more than you can say for any other Pokemon ranked below it
• Venomoth - clicks Sleep Powder, struggles to do much else. Above Butterfree because its better typing and stats, as well as Double Edge being usable for it, make it kinda useful vs Chansey
• Beedrill - SD bumps it up a rank because it can pose a threat, but realistically it's still weak and it dies to everything
• Farfetch'd - STAB Slash is handy, plus SD can punish complacency. Still dies to everything and has no coverage though. Outclassed by Scyther of all things
• Pidgeot - outclassed badly by other Normal/Flying types. Its selling points over them is its bulk, but it's still not good and it has a terrible defensive typing, so it's a liability rather than an asset defensively. STAB Normal attacks and usable offensive stats prevent it from dropping to the rank below

• Butterfree - clicks Sleep Powder and does literally nothing else. Dies to everything as well
• Golbat - has a random mishmash of tools that aren't totally unusable. Still, it doesn't really do anything
• Seaking - all it does is attack, but its attacking power sucks so it kinda doesn't do anything
• Ditto - ew, no

 

[Eeveeto]

Mons that could be higher:

Dewgong: On its own merits it's actually a decent Mon, his only issue is being outclassed by Cloyster and Lapras. Only viable on teams with 5 Ice Mons (or just the 3 Water Ices) but actually contributes on those, even if the archetype is not very viable.
Blastoise: I think that apart from Poliwrath, it's the only Water with Counter, unlike Poliwrath not weak to Psychic, so can para some Psychic with Body Slam.
Haunter: If Gengar is dead, opponent is more likely to explode, you can bring this to sabotage that. Should be somewhere in F, certainly better than Ditto.
Dodrio: For sure better than Clefable and Kanga, threatening grasses is so nice. Never seen Clef do something relevant in a match, did see Dodrio doing a lot of damage pretty often, either as a lead or not. In fact, Clef should be just a Tier above Wiggly.

Shotouts to Arcanine which would be so much better with Dig allowed.

 

[CrapAtRBY]

Unironically looking forward to finally determining the worst fully evolved Poké in RBY

Charizard seems much worse than the others in its tier, E2 is where I see the last mons with (marginal) legitimate use in OU. Charizard is garbage, yes it has swords dance and theoretically can threaten Jynx and Exeggutor early game, but Fire/Flying is a horrendous typing, mediocre stats across the board and no way to boost its speed for Fire Spin shenanigans. Your opponent is always going to have something to switch in that outspeed and status or just KO it.

Never used Butterfree but it has ground immunity and double powders, I feel like that has to be worth something.

Seaking could have its own tier in F6 or F7 and really doesn't get shit on enough, it belongs in the same conversation as the old-school trifecta of trash that is Ditto/Golbat/Hitmonchan. I have legitimately no idea what merit Seaking has.

It's supposed to be a mono-water that has vaguely usable mixed attacking stats and access to agility, it doesn't have that annoying 4x Electric weakness that Gyarados has and doesn't have the rock weakness afforded by a secondary Ice typing that can screw you over sometimes, so you can come in on and force Rhydon out more easily and click agility but then what... you have Base 92 attack with no STAB and Base 80 Special and your movepool is a joke, this poor thing doesn't even learn Body Slam.

I guess the set is

Blizzard
Double-Edge
Hyper Beam/Surf
Agility

Remarkably Seaking has lower base speed and attack than Cloyster (always forget Cloyster has base 95 attack) but Seaking does have more special bulk, for instance, Starmie only 2HKOs with TBolt 10.7% of the time and Zapdos can't OHKO you with TBolt.

 

[CrapAtRBY]

Does Hitmonchan do literally anything better than the other Fighting Types? All I can come up with is it's the only mono-fighting mon that can freeze

 

[Teh]

lowkey hitmonchan might be better than hitmonlee. hitmonlee gets revenge killed very easily and is generally outclassed by machamp, whereas hitmonchan's role as an agility sweeper w/ stab fighting is actually unique

 

[Tarvold]

• Props for this idea. This is very much in my ball game. I have a decade of experience in often utilizing the underdog mons in RBY. To challenge them against the meta, and trying to come up with new ideas and concepts. I have practical experience with all FE Pokemon in RBY OU ladder as well as many (but not every single) NFE. Though I'm obviously not infallible and I'm sure there is stuff I have missed. My own VR subtly changes fairly often so none of my picks are set in stone.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1oubeta-123264582
(Just a quick example to demonstrate I've been experimenting on ladder a long time).

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1912522810-pais7bhr32z188yx3wuydkm6dn2ig5gpw
(Using Lickitung in the most recent RBY Cup).

• Going by the rule of retaining positions of original VR with this being simply an extension, I definitely agree with due to making things smoother. In an ideal world I'd make a couple of changes. (*Things like Raichu, Raticate & Omastar being above Lickitung & Nidoqueen confuses me a bit). But happy for it to be left alone.
• In terms of your definition for F tier, I would subtly reword the last part 'to lack an effective niche.' If you look hard enough you can usually find something unique every FE Mon can do. (e.g. Golbat has EQ immunity in a Parafuse spam switch stall team, otherwise if you really wanted that, you'd have to rely on Aerodactyl/Butterfree and Supersonic. Not a good team or a good mon, but still a niche). The debate then becomes if it's worth it enough to run when you consider the negatives of doing so. The wording of 'generally not usable' makes complete sense to me, because there's always the slight potential that something random can hit a good matchup or put in work. I wouldn't say any of the fully evolved mons are completely worthless and all the time unusable, even Ditto).
• Agree with a fair amount of your general placements. Feels like a very solid attempt. Here is my selection: (I'll do a later post explaining my reasoning when I have the time).

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team. The roles these Pokemon can fulfill are crucial, if not mandatory, for RBY teams and these Pokemon are the best at their certain roles.

Tauros
Snorlax
Chansey

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the RBY metagame. These Pokemon pose a significant offensive or defensive threat to most teams. If these Pokemon have flaws, they are often outshown by their strengths.
Starmie
Exeggutor
Alakazam

B1 Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are very good in the RBY metagame, yet are somewhat inconsistent. These Pokemon may have flaws, but they have positive aspects which makes them stand out, making them valuable members of a team.
Rhydon
Zapdos
Gengar
Cloyster
Jynx

B2 Rank:
Slowbro
Jolteon

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have solid niches in the RBY metagame, but nonetheless are generally inconsistent. These Pokemon have definite flaws, but may have positive aspects which can make them worth using.
Lapras
Persian
Articuno
Victreebel
Moltres
Dragonite

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the RBY metagame, but are decent enough to pose a threat at times, usually out of surprise. These Pokemon have a small niche in the metagame and are often not worth using.
Porygon
Golem
Kingler
Sandslash
Hypno
Kabutops

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are very mediocre, they are very dependent on surprising the opponent to pose any threat. These Pokemon are almost entirely outclassed, with little to no niche, they are rarely worth using.

E1 Rank:
Kangaskhan
Poliwrath
Venusaur
Raichu
Raticate
Machamp
Clefable
Omastar

E2 Rank:
Lickitung
Nidoqueen

E3 Rank:
Pinsir
Gyarados
Dugtrio
Golduck

E4 Rank:
Hitmonlee
Dodrio
Muk
Aerodactyl
Vaporeon
Ninetales

E5 Rank:
Flareon
Tangela
Charizard
Kadabra
Wigglytuff
Tentacruel
Mr. Mime
Nidoking

E6 Rank:
Electrode
Poliwhirl
Rapidash
Arbok
Onix
Arcanine
Primeape
Vileplume

F rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are generally not usable whatsoever. Whatever positive traits they have, if any, are overwhelmed by their negative traits. They are either outclassed or simply lack an effective niche.

F1 Rank:
Magneton
Dewgong
Electabuzz
Fearow

F2 Rank:
Haunter
Parasect
Blastoise
Weezing

F3 Rank:
Venomoth
Scyther
Hitmonchan
Dragonair
Farfetch'd

F4 Rank:
Butterfree
Magmar
Marowak
Pidgeot
Beedrill

F5 Rank:
Golbat
Seaking
Seadra

F6 Rank:
Ditto

 

[Ortheore]

Tarvold, thanks for the suggestion regarding the F rank definition, I've gone ahead and implemented that. Looking forward to your reasoning for your rankings. Some other changes I've implemented:

• Added Haunter to F2. With 2 players flagging it as being worth ranking I'm not going to disregard that. Personally I'm highly skeptical of stacking Ghost types, but putting it in F2 isn't a stretch
• Moved Dewgong from F2 to F1. Similar to Haunter, Eeveeto recommended moving it up and Tarvold had it listed higher as well. I think Eeveeto's argument that it's not as bad on its own merits is reasonable. That said, triple Ice/Water sounds really bad tbh and it is still terribly outclassed. I don't see it making it out of F.
• Moved Charizard from E2 to E3. I agree with CrapAtRBY in that every other pokemon in E2 has a legit argument for being considered a regular fringe threat (i.e. could theoretically make it onto the official VR). Also helps that Tarvold's rankings also concur with demoting Zard

Regarding other stuff:

• Clef isn't getting demoted due to being on the official VR. I'm also personally a fan of Clef, I love its attacking potential coupled with reliable para
• Open to moving Drio but it needs more discussion- Eeveeto argued it can move up, Tarvold has it ranked lower than it is currently. Personally I think it's more likely to move up than down, but we'll see
• Open to moving Blastoise if anyone else thinks it should move up. Personally I don't see how its tools combine in a meaningful way though
• I don't think anything belongs in the same tier as Ditto. Even Golbat/Seaking are substantially better than it

Hitonchan definitely isn't in the same conversation as Golbat/Seaking, but I'd pump the brakes on it being better than Hitmonlee. Agility is notable, but finding a turn to set up can be tricky. The bigger issue is that Submission is an awful move to be relying on. Bad accuracy is frustrating but recoil is a huge deal for a move that is ideally targeting Chansey/Snorlax. That said, I haven't used Hitmonlee, it's possible that the difference between them isn't as big as I think

Regarding Butterfree, I can see why a Ground immunity and dual powder look valuable, but in my experience it struggles to get use out of anything aside from Sleep Powder. Ground immunity means little when it folds to every single physical attacker- Don is only 3HKOd by MD while OHKOing in return and that's the only physical attacker Butterfree can to anything substantial to. Similarly it struggles to get value out of Stun Spore- its negligible offensive potential means virtually any sleep absorber can just stay in and burn sleep turns. You could use Stun Spore as an emergency check to an out of control attacker, but Butterfree is likely dying in the process (not to mention that 75% accuracy can be frustrating)

 

[Sevi 7]

innovamania Time to show your expertise with all the non-viable mons you run on ladder.

 

[Tree69420]

I don't have experience with these mons but I really feel like Haunter is better than everything in E5
Doubling up on ghosts does stack weaknesses but if you lead Gengar and it dies earlygame Haunter can still catch booms or hbeams and it lives a Tauros/Snorlax EQ, while all of the E tier is almost purely outclassed by already bad mons
For example, Wigglytuff is a purely worse Clefable who is already hard to fit
Kadabra is made of paper so it's outclassed by both Jynx and Alakazam (recover does not make it ever worth justifying over Jynx considering its absolute garbage bulk and irrelevant speed tier)
Tentacruel isn't exactly outclassed but it's hard to justify it when you always want Dragonite and Victreebel as your first 2 wrappers and Tentacruel doesn't help against the problem matchups of psychics or gengar
etc etc

 

[Tarvold]

Reasoning

It’s really not that hard to get to +4 with this and start smashing stuff with hbeam. You should usually be able to at least trade down 1v1 with it. Only unpara’d Cloy/bad para luck/great manoeuvring from opponent should stop that. Great moveset. For me, the stats look worse than they actually are. For a mon that wants to get to +4 and start smashing stuff 30 speed is actually a benefit in terms of low crit rate + stat reapplication. Bulk is just about good enough. For instance being able to survive a crit Zam psy is a feat few other SD’ers can muster.

Favoured set and the only one that makes real sense to me is eq/blizz/tbolt/counter. It was quite a bit better in the JoltCloy spamming era. Walls Jolt harder than any other mon, and Cloy can only really switch in once as EQ, tbolt, tbolt kos. Honestly a pretty cool role compression mon. It’s greater bulk mean it outclasses King, while King’s greater offence give it no real advantages. I also rank this high as being able to punish the most threatening mon in the tier (Bull) with ohko if you catch a hbeam on the switch is a great trait. But this comes with own caveats. You’re not guaranteed to survive the crit, (1/3 chance you can die if it crits), hbeam misses can screw the plan, and you’ve got to get the prediction right. Problem is usually it’s just better to go Don unless really worried about Jolt/Cloy/Egg or you are really confident you can catch your opponent’s beam.

Has immediacy of slash. SD, submission and bind are good options, and it’s type is interesting. Bug type is decent to chain switch around predicted eqs/razorleafs. Has stoss to hit Gar but horrible vs it otherwise. My favourite candidate to use with focus energy, high speed so crits are more likely, while it already lacks top tier coverage. I hate crits ruining my sweep.

Is a potential threat with great attack stat and good move-set. You generally should be able to get it in cleanly into Don once, but after that obviously becomes a big risk. Held back by tbolt weakness. But a cool breaker if you want to spice things up. Nice matchup vs Bull and Lax.

Very luck based but EQ stab and twave immunity, it’s speed and crit rate, and subsand being able to shuffle things or beat things it shouldn’t are good traits for it. So frail though. Only defensive purpose is vs Jolt and chain switching around electric moves. Really you only want to face Zap if its parad and you switch into tbolt. Has ability to revenge kill chipped down Bull and Mie. I’ve actually tried it with mimic to try and get softboiled/recover/twave/ice attack to be even more annoying, but usually just stick to EQ/Sand/Sub/Bslam-Slash-RS. It’s a high risk but potentially high reward mon.

Really hurt by lack of psychic type like Bro, Zam crit psy just nukes it whereas Bro can shrug it off. It’s speed over Bro is good for things like Cloy and Don however. But it’s main niche is down to Species clause. As Substitute Slowbro really wants another Bro to spread para for it, Golduck is the next best thing. You can leverage endgames to suit it as your 6th with Surf/hydro icebeam/blizz amnesia and substitute.

Theoretically really cool. In practice you need luck and good matchup to get value out of. Outspeeding cloyster is very useful. Good odds for 2hko on Cloy, Don and Lax, while is able to set up meditate on sleeping Cloy and Lax if you come in on the rest turn. Can come in on RefLax mid rest 17percent to delete it with crit or else click bslam to try and make progress on back psychics. The frailty sucks, being ohkod by any psychic, and Bull having easy 2hko is a concern. Counter mind games after booms/enemy revenge kills one of your mons is an interesting tool to combat back psys. But can’t 1v1 Bull unless crit hjk, or Bull crit bodyslam into counter, and even chipped Bull can just go hbeam crit gamble to negate its value.

Can be a pretty threatening mon. Honestly I’m open for it to be ranked higher. But for me it goes here, as I personally find more reason to bring the ones I’ve put above it. If want to stack decently fast physical normals with Bull I’d generally prefer to go Persian or Kanghaskhan route. If you to specifically anti-lead Jynx – I’d rather go Bull or Gengar instead as you’re not ice weak and can also threaten lead Gar too, though obviously risking your Bull like that isn’t probably the smartest play. Still agility and drill peck are a nice selling point. Just wish it got mirror move.

Actually is a pretty good Chansey abuser. Has good bulk with substitutes that Chansey boltbeam and stoss can’t break, while has sludge, bslam, screech and strong explosion to throw back. The value in this is being able to preserve your Lax hp/status, and Zam the same. Just bad in that is its only real niche.

I like the set of wingattack/skyattack/sub/rest. Very much a fishing mon. But has defensive and offensive potential. Wingattack to get stuff like Lax in skyattack range. If only had it had drillpeck or rockslide or earthquake. But still technically the best 4attack Lax check, however unless you’re running wing attack you’re going to get pp stalled by RefLax. Crit sky attack can really do some damage - crit is guaranteed ko on Mie/Zam/Chans/Egg but luck based and relying on charge turn and low pp. This potential luck based offense is what is has over Porygon, but it's generally outclassed, and needs a specific structure to run, in order to compensate for electrics/don/ice move weakness. While even bslam eq hbeam rest/fblast bull (something Aero in theory should be able to check) can brute force it with crits and para, due to Aero low defensive stats.

Mostly a worse Lapras but has acid armor instead of reflect for stat reapplication, sand attack instead of confuse ray, (I actually sometimes prefer sand as it doesn’t wear off) and not rockslide and submission/hjk weak, which can come up rarely. But it’s got decent stats and typing. It can actually rest loop boltbeam and stoss Chasney even though weak to tbolt which is weirdly interesting.

Can anti lead Jynx, good some nifty tools for early game lines in confuse ray firespin bslam, shuffling things around, helping get your own sleep off. Can’t go higher as fire doesn’t help defensively in rby, and only really helps offensively vs Jynx and Egg

Fire type with strong bslams + hbeams, even leer and quick attack are cool options. Bad speed hurts it so can’t rank it as high as tales.

If it had giga drain could actually be pretty decent. Embarrassing how little mega drain does to a Chansey even at +6. Generally got issues being outclassed by Egg, but sd/growth/bodyslam/bind at least give it different options. The main times I’ve used it are when I’ve been bored of using Egg. Mini Vic with sleep/stun/bind, but obviously worse accuracy hurts. Being able to switch into Don multiple times unlike Vic and Venu is a positive. Got enough unique things going for it to rank decently high.

It gets meme’d on a lot but it’s honestly not that bad, certainly decent in terms of its options. SD’er with fireblast, EQ, counter, slash. Has enough going for it that it’s not awful as to fill that 6th teamslot for variety. Can be a threat but typing hinders it more than helps it.

Only to be used in a team with Zam, unless flex. Can lead, or help lessen a boltbeam Chansey weakness but so frail.

Pretty much a worse Clef, but is a better option for counter due to higher hp (‘ve used bide too lol). But in the bslam spamming tier, a normal with ok stats and a lot of options is hard to rank lower than this.

This isn’t uu. But still naturally fastest wrapper. Sd wrap hbeam and special moves can hit hard. Barrier can’t really work due to Bull crits.

Badly outclassed yet the fact it’s a psychic type means it’s hard to rank lower. As psychic types are so useful even as designated sleep fodder for resetting spec drops and the like. Can oppose Mie with tbolt. It has barrier for reapplication over Hypnos reflect, but so unlike Hypno being so frail means it melts to crit bslams, and vulnerable to stoss with low hp, so rest even less appealing.

It’s hard to place him. Slightly better offence but lacking defensive potential of Queen. haven’t used him for quite a while, but would probably go bslam over Queens counter to combat BackMie, otherwise a problem for him.

In a world where twave trading t1 was more common this mon had the niche as the mon with 25percent chance to get para and stay healthy, which is nice for early momentum. Generally just outclassed by Jolt. Has screech/flash and explosion threat which can somewhat help with mon shuffling/para spreading potential. But if you running it as a lead, this probably implies sleepless or Vic build, both not ideal.

Weirdly faster than its evolution and in most cases better typing mean one of the few pre-evos you can consider running it instead of as opposed to alongside its evolution,. Lack of psy weakness but bad stats. I did use to like it as a niche lead in the past, when stuff like Eggy and Hypno were used somewhat commonly as leads.

Stomp fire spin agility anti-lead, but Tauros does this kind of thing better really. TailWhip reapplication is okay to make stomp/bslam/hbeam hit harder. Problems are inconsistency, bad typing and competition from other fires. I can’t rank this higher.

Semi niche in dedicated wrap build (hey Enigami) but I find having to rely on glare accuracy really hurts. EQ is nice though. No real good stab option.

Has Bind and Explosion. Very niche pick in some dedicated wrap builds. For Zap check as Wrap is usually very weak to the bird with Cloy/Vic/Nite. But the scary thing about bind is letting in Bull. Frustratingly low attack, even explosion is very weak. I find it similar in utility to Bok, but glare keeps Bok above this.

Good stats but a bit meh. It can rest loop a Chansey I guess. But lacks the more defined traits of most other fire types. Would have liked to test it with dig allowed though.

Not having eq hurts. It’s alright though. Mostly by virtue of type allowing super effective hits on at least half of the opponents mons on most teams. The bulk is surprisingly bad though (being 2hko’d by bull). Rslide and electric attacks are kinda cool coverage.

I’ve tried a swords dance set with mono Acid. It’s actually funny as with the defence drop ref lax cant wall it. But yeah just use Vic or Venu instead. Bulk like Venu but gets stun spore, so not completely outclassed.

Ref rest is a thing with the best defence of the electrics. Tbolt actually hits hard. Have also used it for screech support. Para spreader. Zap wall. Maybe a little harsh on it, but lack of coverage is incredibly annoying vs Don and Egg, with Jolt’s coverage/speed/critrate in most cases outclassing this.

Has headbutt over Lapras. This is your 4x Ice resist in a fun paraflinch build. Growl for para stat reapplication. Objectively it’s not a particularly bad Pokemon, why it has a high F rank. Just outclassed.

Has got submission, psychic, screech, but mostly a worse Raichu really. Outclassed but a got a bit of para spreading potential with screech and potential special drops/para reapplication from psychic.

Funny as a turn 1 Jynx switch in. If they hit Lovely Kiss, great it’s your sleep fodder, It not, outspeeds and can mirror move it right back. Actually in theory ok vs RefLax with mirror move leer. At least it gets Drill peck over Pidgeot.

Like most NFE it’s only use is alongside it’s evo. But Haunter has its own trick up it’s sleeve as a surprise 6th after already downed Gengar, in terms of potentially catching booms if your opponent gets cocky thinking it safe. Not good stats or reliable but very rarely can be a useful tool to consider.

Spore is super. Stun spore is solid. Speed is shocking. Annoyingly almost makes slash unusable as it doesn’t crit enough. Ideally you’d want to lead this thing but you can’t really afford to because Jynx can use ohko it with blizz. Unfortunately the one great trait it has other than spore – the fact it can switch into EQ with its 4x resist, is negated by fact it then gets obliterated by RS the following turn. More Dons dropping rs does help it a bit.

Mono-water with counter eq blizz surf withdraw stoss submission bodyslam. Not bad options. Just too many other waters to struggle against, but it’s not terrible.

In a pure Boomspam it’s speed over Egg compared to Muk is important. Coverage is okay with sludge, tbolt and fireblast. Smokescreen can be annoying.

Has double powder, better stats than Butterfree. Outspeeding Cloy is useful. Being psy weak is semi compensated by not being boltbeam weak.

Agility and swords dance plus hbeam is unique. But in practice it’s way too hard to engineer. Too easily walled. Terrible vs Don/Gar. Has a lot of Sd’er competition. But it’s not awful and could potentially be moved up.

Meme pick but agility is something. After an agility (on say sleeping lax or such) can actually 1v1 Tauros, something not even Hitmonlee can reliably achieve. But yeh Agility is all it has. Just dies to psychics. Submission accuracy is painful.

Can switch into an electric move. And has benefit being ohkod by some ice moves. Has slight advantage over Nite in some respects, but the stat drop pretty much isn’t worth it, so better to use alongside in a cursed AgiWrap build. At one point I tried it as a hybrid Zap check with RefRest, but Zap still kinda mullers it even then.

Bad vs Don/Gar. Bad stats. Not even getting hbeam stinks. At least it can slash with normal stab, fish for bslam para or could maybe utilise subsand. But not very good.

A worse Venomoth than can come in on an EQ which why goes a sub tier below, and one more chance to land sleep vs psychic.

Had a stage where I enjoyed trying it as a surprise 6th endgamer, with the smokescreen and confuse ray unholy alliance. Did also try Lv85 stoss at one point. But this guy is the worst fire.

Has the bone club/headbutt flinch combo which I find amusing. Only mon that can flinch para’d Gengar. Pure ground type with counter, interesting special move options. It’s not actually ‘that’ bad, in a world in which Tauros starts to drop blizzard more it could rise a bit, due to counter threat. But that’s all it offers really. Just outclassed.

Don’t like not having drill peck, normal stab is ok but no bodyslam hurts. I find it doesn’t usually achieve anything, while it has the obvious Don/Gar problem. Has mirror move potential in theory with better defences than Fearow, but that’s a wildly inconsistent plan.

Twinneedle can ohko Egg with a crit. That’s something, right? Twineedle and SD keep it from bottom 2 tiers, but it can’t really achieve too much without the opponent misplaying. Tried it with pivot moves or accuracy dropping support to help bring it in, but still a major risk to run. One little thing I did kind of like was using String shot to enable winning the revenge Bull war, or counter shenanigans with Kanga.

On dedicated parafusion team has vague niche as an EQ switch in (and razor leaf I guess). Bad stats, no good stab, only real utility in confuse ray and screech is ruined by switching. I also find Confuse ray generally just wears off too quickly. Don’t run that team unless you want to torture yourself.

Feel like they both kind of fit together. Are pretty much outclassed by the myriad of other waters. Seadra especially has a toolkit just outclassed by Vaporeon, who is already outclassed by Lapras. They do both have agility but then Cuno becomes the superior choice instead. Either could be bottom, went for Seadra as Seaking could conceivably threaten para’d Chans/Mie more with significantly better attack, and TailWhip reapplication.

5pps and bad stats are tough to achieve anything with. Even though I have it bottom, I wouldn’t describe it as completely irredeemable. As it has a tiny niche in terms of scouting, being as it can sometimes be possible to deduce movesets and teambuilds by way your opponent responds to it. But you should probably just use a proper mon instead.

 

[Billybobman]

I'm going to hold off on some of the other mons for now, I want to get a better feel for the rest of the mons in the lower tiers. I've been focusing on testing most recently. I know that some people are able to use leads in the upper part of the ladder, but I mostly get the feel that it's being used as sleep fodder. I tend to prefer to keep awake, although there are some instances where I try to use it as sleep fodder. Also, the highest I've gone with is 1461, I get into losing streaks often. The "OnixIsOK" account thathas 1500 elo, is there b/c I was using my lead + +

I want to put tentatively in E1, somewhere above

Reasoning

Ok let's list out the traits of the notable Rock/Ground types

Pros and Cons:
Pros Completely counters and , is extremely threating if you don't have a check
High Damage output vs many commonly used Pokemon in the tier
Substitute can be can provide extra protection from damage, especially due to its high HP
Edge/Quake Offense
Has the potential to wall
It can switch into Rock Type Moves
Sweeping Potential
Can come in on more "niche" picks like ,
It can punish Hyper Beam and Explosion users or dissuade them from picking those moves

Cons Hard to switch in due to all of the special offense
Very slow, slower than and
Arguably loses to if weakened
Relies on luck to beat
Checked by , Especially Rest variants


Pros and Cons:
Pros: Completely counters and , is extremely threating if you don't have a check
Faster than Rhydon
Has the potential to switch into a weakened and take it down
Hits okay offensively
Has the potential to wall
Explosion Hits very hard, This combined with weakening , allows it to have synergy with as an expected switch to makes Fire Spin safer. This also may make the opponent make bad switches due to expecting an Explosion
Explosion also provides safe switch-ins and prevents recovery
It can punish Hyper Beam and Explosion users or dissuade them from picking those moves

Cons Sometimes feels as if its goal is just to trade
4 move syndrome
It's still slow, Slower than and which can reduce its opportunities to boom on the right mons, it also may end up being sleep fodder.
It has trouble with damage output, making it harder to take on important threats like and


Pros and Cons:
Pros: Completely counters and , is extremely threating if you don't have a check
Faster than Rhydon (please use the damage calculator or try it yourself if you don't believe me)
It is the fasted of the trio, it outspeeds important mons such as and meaning that it can use Bind to prevent healing, or the use of Sing or Sleep Powder, It also has a higher crit rate which can come in handy.
Bind, Bind is not a due nothing move, it is very much a mind game move however. It allows you to bring in Offensive mons. If the opposing
team does not carry an electric type, you can still use on predicted Body Slams, and Rock Slides. Meaning it has great Synergy with as it aids the consistency of Fire Spin (due to double switch predicctions), and enables it to switch into the mons that handles: and . Which are both extremely prevalant. Explosion is not an OHKO on anything, but it still deals a significant amount of damage while preventing the opponent from doing nothing.
The threat of Explosion can make the opponent make the opponent make predicable switch-ins to or other Explosion absorbers
Can switch into 's Rock Slide and use Bind rather than relying on a skewed 50/50 double switch. (it's 75/25 instead).
It can punish Explosion users or dissuade them from exploding

Cons: Very Weak Offensively, (It would outclass if it had higher attack....)
Like Paralysis can screw it over, its usefulness at that point is relegated to being a pivot, Exploding on a paralyzed mon, or saving it for an opponent's or to win the game
It could potentially wall some sets, but You would rather have Bind and Explosion
Explosion is not an OHKO on anything relevant
It can punish Hyper Beam, but only with Explosion, or when picking of a weakened mon: Onix Earthquake vs. Tauros: 71-84 (20.1 - 23.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO .Onix Explosion vs. Tauros: 159-188 (45 - 53.2%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO

Now Let's compare Onix to one of the E Tier mons that I am most familiar with:


Pros and Cons:
Pros:
Super Fang is probably the best Early Game Offensive move, as it does not care what you switch into, (Hard to say, b/c there are strong moves like Body Slam)
Has the potential to enable sweeps with Super Fang
Has the potential to remove in a skewed 50/50 (Super Fang on switch in, than Hyper Beam)
It beats which is funny. (which implies that it beats and )
Can force to Rest.
It's STAB Hyper Beams and Body Slams do decent damage
Cons:
Requires support, amazing prediction, or a sacked mon, to switch in safely.
Common mons can shrug off Super Fang
Worse than when attempting to take on
Dies to Counter
Often Super Fangs once, then dies.
It may require some paralysis to be effective (the dex entry says that you should paralyze all of the opponent's mons first, I disagree with that, that is harder than it sounds).
Does not really aid the mirror consistently, b/c of damage rolls. Super Fang into Hyper Beam is not gaurunteed.

I've beaten very high elo people with , but I still find it very inconsistent. I think it's better than offensively, but ; is easier to switch in, kind of just dies. That's why I have such a low opinion of .

I think provides enough positive value to be on the regular tier list. It may not do a whole bunch of damage itself, but it provides defensive utility, and can help break through mons like I find it much more consistent that who is also placed in E tier. If I try out and I suspect that I will drop those two to F tier in my own rankings. Or perhaps I would bump both and up. In the hands of a mind reader, would probably be a beast (or a little lower than that I'm just trying to make a point).

Try it yourself, Ordered based on Expected Consistency:
1. (Mega Drain to help ease the Rhydon match up 3 booms for :Chansey)
2. ( is meant to be Sleep Fodder, Lax is freed due to + )
3. (Better than the below one, Chansey prefers substitute as you have no switch-ins for Psychic)
4. (A fun team, where you try to break through walls and get silly freezes)

Use these teams as a base, understand that just because Bind misses once, you still may not have spent enough time trying it out. You also don't always use Bind, the existence of Bind can help ease prediction. Feel free to adjust the teams as you like as you don't want to be predictable, and you may want to use a team that fits your playstyle. You also may want to adapt to what is currently being used. Try your best to not let popular opinion and luck obscure the mon's placement. (Although we do have to take luck into account) Keep in mind that if you do play a lot on the ladder, some players may adjust their teams to be beat yours (I'm not saying that this happens often, but it can).

Don't be afraid to try different stuff, you just have to learn from your team's flaws through practice. Bad teams, can still hold some good ideas to learn from. Which is why I think it can be worth it to be experimental.

Keep in mind that we still see interesting uses of mons in their formats like ADV OU, where we see weird stuff like beat up being OU. So, I'm curious which mons will rise up due to the Extended Viability Rankings. Thank you for adding this by the way, I appreciate it..

Feel free to point out any pros or cons I missed out on. I tried to cover any holes the best I could.

_________________________________________________________________________________________
On a side note, I would very much like to hear Enigami's reasoning for Arbok placement, because they probably have way more experience with Wrap Teams than I do. As well as more experience with RBY. Just to note, I do base some of my options on what other have to say, Hipmonlee being one of them.

 

[Billybobman]

Wait, I just realized, shouldn't Rank D-E be talked about as well? I feel like they don't want anything below Rank C discussed in the regular viability thread.
Sorry for the double post, but I feel like the question would be ignored if I edit the above.

 

[Ortheore]

Tree69420 I think you might be responding to Tarvold's personal rankings rather than the ones that are being used for this project- Wigglytuff is not in E5 for instance. Anyway, one thing that I felt like addressing is Kadabra- this is in no way outclassed by Jynx, thanks to Recover and TWave. It is outclassed by Zam, but the whole premise behind Kadabra is that you run it alongside Zam and one wears down walls for the other.

Billybobman I don't really see Onix in E1 tier over things like Gyarados. I get that it supports a team via Bind, but its defensive niche isn't substantially better than GolDon. Although you can use it to bring in a legit threat, oftentimes you could be better served skipping the extra steps and chance for a miss and just bring in something like Don which is a threat in its own right. Onix's lack of offense I think means it's a worse choice than most of E2, nvm E1.

Also yeah, that's a fair point regarding the limitations on discussion, it's quite possible these initial parameters are a bit too strict. I think I'll go ahead and unrestrict E and D rank, unless Sabelette or another mod says otherwise

Also Tarvold I went through your list and compiled all of the differences between your rankings and mine, then went ahead with these changes:

• Lickitung to E3
• Nidoqueen to E3
• Dragonair added to F3
• Seadra to F4
• Electabuzz to E6
• Scyther to F1
• Charizard to E4
• Parasect to F2
• Weezing to F1
• Mr. Mime to E6
• Wigglytuff to E6
• Primeape to E6
• Vileplume to E6
• Aerodactyl to E5
• Vaporeon to E5

Comments on reasoning

You made compelling cases for Lickitung and Nidoqueen, so they can definitely rise, I'm skeptical about grouping them with stuff like Gyarados and Pinsir though. Also because it looks like your rankings of these 2 pushed down everything else in E, I generally decided not to implement single ranking drops

That's fair that Seadra shouldn't be multiple ranks above Seaking. I am skeptical of it being in the same tier, purely because it's just much better at being an Agility Water than Seaking, whereas Seaking is supposed to be some sort of mixed attacker but it sucks at everything. I also find it a little inconsistent, given that you rank things like Tuff, Mime and Vaporeon higher than me despite them all being predominantly worse versions of other Pokemon

Regarding Magmar, have you tried Submission at all on it? I'm kinda intrigued by that option on it which is why I've rated it higher than I otherwise would

I think I rate Flareon and Rapidash significantly higher than you because I value their mixed potential, which Ninetales kinda doesn't have. Flareon in particular I think is a serious threat. Its Speed isn't even all that bad, since it's still faster than most slow Pokemon in the game, Cloyster's really the only notable thing it misses out on imo. Dash on the other hand seems like it does everything Tales does, just with a little less SPC and a little more ATK

My thoughts on Butterfree coming in on any EQ, is what EQ is it coming in on? The only pokemon that's consistently spamming EQ is Don, which destroys Butterfree. Additionally, I don't think you can guarantee an EQ early in the game when you're looking to land sleep. Because Butterfree can't deal with sleepblockers, delaying sleep means delaying pretty much all other status

 

[Amaranth]

Wait, I just realized, shouldn't Rank D-E be talked about as well? I feel like they don't want anything below Rank C discussed in the regular viability thread.
Sorry for the double post, but I feel like the question would be ignored if I edit the above.

if you make a comprehensive post with real, valuable arguments about why something in D or E deserves to rise (or why something outside of the VR deserves to be in it), those are perfectly welcome in the main thread. but it needs to be real discussion, based on real evidence (level of play on ladder is too inconsistent to use it for meaningful conclusions).
putting in a lot of legitimate effort into your post will generally make it acceptable; I don't think anyone has any issues with this post of yours for example. even your very reasonable follow up was left up, those posts were completely okay.
your other posts weren't deleted because they spoke of Forbidden Pokemon, they were deleted because they stopped offering any insight that is relevant to top level OU.

there are some mons that have no place in that thread at all - Enigami put it eloquently here

Pokemon undeserving of any rank above F really don't need discussion in a viability ranking thread.

but D especially, and within reason E, can definitely be discussed. see any number of posts, like Hipmonlee's to make one example.

in general, the arguments you need to make on the official VR thread are less "this pokemon can win games", and moreso "this pokemon can be an optimal choice". the argument for Onix ever being optimal is really, really hard to make - and no ladder results will change that. but for example, a post arguing for Hypno or Venusaur's merits can easily be a valuable contribution. they have unique niches, and sporadic appearances and results even at the top level. there are games that Hypno and Venusaur have broken open and no other pokemon could have. Onix is an infinitely tougher sell, everything on paper says it's miles off any OU relevance, and everything in practice also points to the same fact. keep Onix talk here

 

[Tree69420]

Tree69420 I think you might be responding to Tarvold's personal rankings rather than the ones that are being used for this project- Wigglytuff is not in E5 for instance. Anyway, one thing that I felt like addressing is Kadabra- this is in no way outclassed by Jynx, thanks to Recover and TWave. It is outclassed by Zam, but the whole premise behind Kadabra is that you run it alongside Zam and one wears down walls for the other.

I said Kad was outclassed by Jynx because Kad's negative bulk means it can't use recover that well, even though it does have twave over it, and Kad is also essentially outclassed by Starmie (worse speed tier, way worse bulk, elec neutrality doesn't matter that much when the premier electric, Zapdos, nukes it to the ground with stab dpeck, less sets to bluff)

I just feel like using Haunter is a large surprise factor and although I may have been a little too high on it, it's still leagues better than shitmons like Onix, Mr. Mime, and Vileplume and should be in a similar tier as Charizard and Nidoking.

 

[Billybobman]

I'll take a look at again in the future some time. I think I want to look at other mons first to get more of a feel for things. I plan on experimenting with regular OU mons and when I have the time/ or whenever tbh.


I swear I saw mention of Substitute + Wing Attack .
I'm sorry if you've already heard my opinion on the best set for Aero, but I'm pretty confident it's:
Sky Attack+Fire Blast+Double Edge+Rest

Aerodactyl Stuff

Sky Attack b/c it's a one shot with very high base power STAB move, meaning that you don't have to worry about getting crits twice in a row
just once. You multiply the odds of critting twice to get the odds for that which would be: .2593^2 = .06446.

However, Wing Attack does have 56pp, so with Rest + Substitute it appears that it becomes a lot like a that does a horrible job against Ice Beam. If you are able to hit Wing Attack against 56 times, you likely will get a crit twice in a row. (I'm not confident in my ability to calc that atm) Wing Attack's damage is pretty pitiful doing 13.6 - 16% damage to while Double Edge does 25.6 - 30.3%. Which is decent chip, it may encourage the user to not click recover, thinking that it would be a waste to do so. When it crits, it does double that, which can lead to a KO. Also, Sky Attack can get accidental crits on for an OHKO.

Another issue with it is that it lets in for free, if you are not running Fire Blast, Fire Blast at least has a chance to burn. often feels like a 50/50 machine to me b/c of speed ties, and it has to choose between Rock Slide and Earthquake, a lot. Burning can be an issue depending on your team comp, sort of appreciates it b/c burn helps to keep in KO ranges. Fire Blast burns on force it to rest, and hit on the special side to avoid Reflect.

I think that 's rock typing, speed, and damage output help it carve out a niche vs . It can go for KO's rather than PP stalling at the cost of a good recovery move and having to deal with Parahax, and I promise that it will get paralyzed.

Here is a replay of actually shining:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-1960081205-zxn5qj5n87dk5zl0sfa5hynehmryddmpw

Still, its weakness vs Ice Beam sucks, so it's hard for me to say if it can be an optimal choice to cover possible match-ups. But I would look at its ability to nab KO's, potentially force out , sponge explosions, and wall + Remove . mostly just walls than sometimes paralyzes something. Though, it is a big roll to fill.

Though I've learned recently that that team appears to have a horrible weakness to a mon that I don't like using due to awkward mirrors, and running into b/c it can be an actual monster.
Sorry, about talking about a fossil again, but it's what I've practiced with, and its traits stand out to me. And I'm trying to improve my arguments/points for them.

I'll wait on my placement for it, I want to try other mons first. I've tried I did not like it, but people's opinions on it are making me curious enough to wonder why it's chosen over . Wrap seems kind of useless to me, when it has such low speed. Maybe, it's meant to cover specific situations I can't think of atm.
______________________________________________________________________________________________
If I'm being honest, I don't fully understand how deep the thought processes goes when choosing teams both on the ladder and in tournament. Though, I suppose that's up to the player. Maybe I should try it out just to get creamed/maybe do well. I remember hearing about double electric flopping, but it still seems like an interesting choice, depending on the thought that went into it. Unfortutely, I'd need it to be spelt out for me why they would make that decision.

I have seen Toxic + Mono Electric before, but I'm not really sure if that's considered Jank, I just want to give props to the idea. Amaranth said Toxic may be underrated in a podcast before, which I agree with.

 

[Ortheore]

I said Kad was outclassed by Jynx because Kad's negative bulk means it can't use recover that well, even though it does have twave over it, and Kad is also essentially outclassed by Starmie (worse speed tier, way worse bulk, elec neutrality doesn't matter that much when the premier electric, Zapdos, nukes it to the ground with stab dpeck, less sets to bluff)

I just feel like using Haunter is a large surprise factor and although I may have been a little too high on it, it's still leagues better than shitmons like Onix, Mr. Mime, and Vileplume and should be in a similar tier as Charizard and Nidoking.

Kadabra can definitely make use of Recover, as its bulk is adequate against any purely special attackers. I agree that it's bad vs Zap, but there's way more benefit to being neutral to Electric than just Zap. Kadabra isn't really threatened by Starmie and is substantially better against Chansey than Starmie is- it's much more plausible for Kadabra to break down a Chansey than it is for Starmie.

Haunter just seems uber gimmicky to me. You're running a pokemon that does very little of its own while compounding important defensive weaknesses, all for the gimmick of having an unexpected Explosion absorber. That doesn't seem all that valuable to me when you've already got Gengar and potentially another pokemon that was sleep fodder filling that role (adding additional conditions to getting value out of its surprise factor). Not to mention that predicting an explosion with Ghosts is already a relatively high risk play due to their defensive shortcomings

 

[Billybobman]

I'm going to avoid putting mons above E2 atm.

Nomimations:
Top of E2, could potentially be higher
E2 or at least a raise out of E5
E2
E5
E5 bottom or above
E3 Top
E3
E5

Reasoning

For E2,. I probably talk about it ad-nauseum, but that's partly b/c I feel like no one has responded to my points, and b/c I'm learning how to improve my arguments for it as I go along. It separates itself from the likes of do to its offensive ability to pick off mons. It is faster than and is very frail on the Physical side. is often the mon that takes stray hits from . It can and should be able to scare off (though some players make the misplay of letting it take Fire Blasts). And its Sky Attack crits do a lot of damage, which it gets many opportunities to get off against Resting . All out Attacking Lax + Surf/Blizzard/Rock Slide/Thunderbolt is extremely rare. Also, revealing it can dissuade the use of Explosion. One important factor that holds it back is the fact that it provides no special defense for your team, and it takes up a slot that could have been used for a sleeper. This means that you have to choose between using a reliable sleeper like or choosing to use a mon to cover sets that it doesn't, like or . It's impact on team building is likely it's major flaw, that and it letting in so easily. I still cannot see it being below . As far as I know, that mon just clicks sludge once, and blows up on something random. Though, at least has a decent Mega Drain for and other Explosion absorbers. Both and have a chance of being "useless" depending on the matchup. Aero does provide some use even when against Ice lax and non-lax teams, at the very least.


For E2, above . Body Slam + Hydro Pump + Thunderbolt + Hyper Beam is the most reliable set imo. The reason being is that can check decently well. Due to its speed and resistance to Surf it can somewhat unreliably check . Hydro Pump is specifically for hitting and as well as Ground types. You switch it in on Reflects and Earthquakes. You therefore can use it to switch into Ground types, force them out, and fish for paralysis. Against , people let it take Hydro Pumps for some reason. Body Slam fishes for paralysis and hits decently well on the physical side. Hyper Beam is very appreciated for helping against . B/c this mon is mixed, it's harder to figure out what it wants to do. Yes, it has a horrible weakness to Electric Attacks. However, you want to keep it healthy and away from Zam and Mie anyways, you need to keep it healthy due to how inaccurate Hydro Pump is. The odds of hitting Pump with Paralysis is: 60%. While the likes of has trouble separating itself from the mon that I think outclasses it, , there is not really a mon that pulls off mixed attacking as well as does, aside from and . But at least doesn't get blocked by // and pretty much every team runs . does get both Slam and Beam, but it's damage output on the Physical side is very disappointing. I actually don't like , and feel that might be stronger... but idk how to argue for that atm.


For E3, I don't really see it as a Wrap team mon, though I do very much like it with , a mon that gets overrated likely due to it's matchup v and the cheese it can pull off. They both synergize well and can even prevent the opponent from putting a mon to Sleep, if their sleeper is . All three Rock/Ground types can replace as funny as that sounds. It's explosion does not KO, but putting in Beam range without a chance to respond is valuable. It also straight up beats , which allows it to perform some mind-game pivoting (more experienced players play around Bind, less experienced players don't). There's no way this mon is less useful than . can at least switch in on Slams, Explosions, Rock Slides, and electric type moves, switches in on Ice Beam.


For, E5, tentatively. It's pretty outclassed by as a second or third sleeper, honestly. But, it is an Extra boom + Sleeper mon. Which makes it harder to use sleep fodder as an Explosion absorber. At the very least, I don't see this mon next to who just sleeps a mon then dies. Spore is very nice, but it's not enough. Potentially an extra wall. lets you be more gung-ho with Explosion, which is why I have it ranked higher. I think its role is more than just an Explosion absorber.


For E5 bottom I like as a mon, but I've learned through my half decent Explosion + team that just trading is not very good and is also very risky. Which is what I see a poison type with Explosion doing.


Top of E3. Being an enabler is very strong in Pokemon. As we've seen with in gen 3, I feel like is similar in gen 1. Having an out to in Wrap teams is very important, nothing else can do what does. The added protection of paralysis helps to keep Wrap users alive. It does indeed need to be used alongside the likes of and . I think I saw Enigami put around D. Anyways, the odds of not allowing the opponent to move when switching are better when the opposing team is paralyzed, since you get two shots instead of just one. Against a non switching mon, they have to deal with the extra turns. Hitting wrap with the accuracy check, 5 times in a row is around 44% chance of happening. Preventing movement with paralysis after 5 accuracy checks should be around .8875^5, 55% I think. Dragonite vs Chansey: Wrap: 5.2 - 6.2% . Worst case scenario is all wraps only go twice, 5.2% * 5 * 2 = 52% damage minmum, which brings into KO range. During a battle you may have multiple opportunities to get that 55% chance. (correct my math if I'm wrong please). Wrap is very, very helpful at helping spread status, it's risk losing a mon, or let another mon get paralyzed or slept. It does not like it when has Psychic though.

Using math to prove whether or not Wrap teams are worth using seems like a pain.


E2 It's a Physical attacker, with speed, Earthquake, Counter, meme Fire Blasts, and Slash. While has Amnesia, but it's aiming to hit on the special side against mons that resist its attacks in a meta where high Special mons are dominant. aims to hit on the Physical side. I can't see it below . Tongue has STAB yes, but it's horrifically slow and Wrap does not do much for it from what I can tell. I've also looked at the damage calcs, I'm not sure where the high opinion of comes from, sorry for the rudeness. may even be better than due to access to EQ, meaning that it does not get walled by . But, don't use it as a lead. It's not a bad , it's a sort of okay SD mon.


E5, yes it's stat's look nice, yes it has speed and Wrap. But, it sucks. I've never been able to use it. What does it switch in on exactly? When does it have opportunities to set up? I only see it fitting in on a Wrap team, even though Wrap teams should already have , , and , and maybe Idk, perhaps it can work as a Physical sweeper, that you hide until the end game. To me it looks like a bad . Perhaps I am being too harsh.

I don't know how I feel about , I just don't like how hard it gets walled.

Any how, I had fun writing this, despite saying that I would practice before I posted lol. But I did use Golem along side Gyarados and Zapdos, at least.
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So I can understand, why is at E rank? I suspect that it's better than , but I find E1 rank a tad confusing at times. Pretty sure is outclassed as a special attacker, but I think it's decently strong, and it can wall Lax. Going up against a standard triple Psychic team, against a very experienced player, I did not feel like I was at that much of a disadvantage. is honestly kinda sucky, keeping away , Twaving a mon, and preventing from healing due to self KO isn't too terrible, but it seems pretty bad.

 

[Ortheore]

I haven't ordered pokemon within subtiers, so it's all alphabetical, hence Gyarados can't rise any further in E2. Given how little experience most people have with Pokemon of this calibre, it makes way more sense to group them into comparable subtiers than to split hairs over that fine of a detail

Aero definitely doesn't deserve E2, since it's way too unreliable due to its dependence on hax, not to mention it's awful defensively outside its very specific niche. That said I think bumping it up to E4 is reasonable, since you're not the only person to suggest Aero should be ranked higher.

Onix isn't getting a rise at this stage. You list all these things it can switch in on, but the only thing it does in response is Bind out to something else, which is unreliable. Some of the things listed aren't even that valuable, for instance Rock Slide has 1 relevant user that typically prefers to use EQ rather than RSlide. It's generally not worth more than simply using a pokemon that can fill a similar role defensively while also pulling its weight offensively. I don't mean to totally shut things down, but from reading other posts in the thread there's not much support among other players for it to rise either.

I also don't envisage Haunter rising. This one is a bit more split as I have seen other people arguing for it to rise, but they also didn't have experience with it. Meanwhile other notable players have indicated support for it to be around where it is now. I personally think it's awful, but I'm open to raising it if there's a consensus supporting a raise

Arbok isn't remotely comparable to G3 Mr. Mime. There are a couple reasons for this. The first is that Wrap simply isn't broken, unlike Baton Pass. The second is that it doesn't at all shut down counterplay in the same way Mr. Mime does. Sure, it fares better against Gengar, but it doesn't stop it from being a huge obstacle to Wrap teams. Chip damage on Arbok can flip that matchup on its head, the opponent can simply play around EQ, not to mention that Gengar is only one obstacle for Wrap teams, Arbok doesn't help much with anything else that's faster than Wrap users.

I'm not particularly fussed on Muk, but as I mentioned with Gyara, each subtier is ordered alphabetically, so it's not possible to move up or down within a given sub tier. Also fyi one of the points raised by Tarvold is that Muk isn't too bad against Chansey, thanks to its respectable attacking power, bulk and typing. Maybe not great, but usable, and that's a pretty valuable niche outside of clicking Explosion

Regarding Tenta, you said it yourself in your Onix spiel, Tenta can swich in on Ice attacks, and really most Water types that aren't Starmie. I actually don't see much of a point in running it on Wrap teams because it doesn't support them with status. Instead I'd consider it its own unique offensive threat, thanks to the combination of speed, Wrap and raw power. That said, you're the second person to have Tenta ranked lower than where it's at right now, and I don't think anyone's argued against it dropping, so I might go ahead and drop it to E4

 

[Billybobman]

I'm messing around with currently. Its power does come in handy sometimes, though I'm going to look into how much that makes a difference. I will point out that against more experienced players, they play around Bind more: [Gen 1] OU replay: JusADoobus vs. wooooo rby - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com). Which could make the argument that just double switching is better more valid. I mean Bind still prevents the possibility of Damage. I don't get to play against these players enough, tbh.
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I'll play around with a bit. I thought was trash when I first tried it out, but I found it pretty decent. So, I might find Tenta not so bad too... I go based on how successful my teams are and how successful I see other players use teams against me. I know it relies on luck, but so does everything else, I think. If Aero forces out lax, it and does good chip to it's done its job imo. I'll look into it before I bother you about it again. I am glad it got a raise though.

It's strange... when I use a more standard triple Psychic team, I have a difficult time, but when I use a non-typical team...
I tend to do okay, maybe players don't know what to do against them. I'm starting to favor a lot more than I
did when I started out btw. I also get into streaks of massive luck and massive bad luck... Which is why you might see me with 1100 points
sometimes.
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If anyone is curious about try this out:

https://pokepast.es/3c17cf628240edbc

A rough copy on what I've seen on the ladder. It seems like a copy of the one with as far as I know.
4 Booms 3 Sleeps.
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That's good to know about , might be why it's not on the regular list.
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I did not realize that it was alphabetized, sorry bout that..
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I'm curious what the difference is between Queen and King... But I'll worry about that later.

 

[Billybobman]

I see, I misunderstood what they meant. I don't have too much of an opinion on whether or not the meta is healthy, but I do think Tauros is the hardest one to drop.
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I've been running around with this:

Team Explanation

The idea being that you switch Golem into to encourage it to click Reflect, Ice Beam, or Earthquake, then switch in Zapdos or Gyarados to hit Snorlax on the special side. Golem flat out counters Zapdos and Jolteon so that that Gyarados and Zapdos don't have to deal with them. Against Rhydon, Golem at least provides a potential switch into it as it may Rock Slide or Body Slam. If Tauros comes in early against Golem, you might have to just blow up.

Anyway, I feel like Golem replaces Snorlax well on this team since you now have answers to Cloyster, Slowbro, Rhydon, Zapdos, and Jolteon. And Zapdos does pretty well against triple Psychic imo, as a wall breaker or a sweeper, if possible. Snorlax gets walled by stuff like Cloyster, Gengar, opposing Snorlax, Chansey if it has Counter (and Lax doesn't have EQ) or Reflect. Zapdos and Gyarados don't really mind Snorlax's Reflect set, since they both hit on the special side, while also making it harder to switch stuff in because they hit on the Physical side as well. Chansey is mandatory as a status absorber, wall, paralysis spreader, and sleep inducer.

I know Gyara isn't ranked at least E1 currently, but I prefer it over Lapras on this team. Its Tbolt weakness does not really bother me, more so the Hydro Pump misses do. I don't see Gyarados as being outclassed on this particular team by any mon due to its Attack and Speed stats, immunity to EQ and resistance to water type attacks (Clamp and Surf). Not sure if Snorlax would be a good replacement. B/C we have it at E2 in the Jank discussion I feel like I can get away with bringing it up.

I've seen the post about the 5% Chansey thing before. I'm not thoroughly convinced Chansey is more droppable than Lax, but that may just come with experience. Maybe it's Snorlax's staying power that I'm not considering. When it comes to versatility I am pretty sure I am aware of the possibilities. Though, I'll try to use them more to update my perspective.
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Something I have wanted to do is talk about the different Snorlax sets. Hyper Beam from Snorlax is insane.
I see lax as mandatory on triple Psychic teams due to it being a switch into Tauros and opposing Snorlax, as well as providing Physical power.
My personal rankings of Snorlax Sets (there are too many to include them all)

Snorlax Set Rankings

S
1. Reflect + Rest + Selfdestruct: I really like self-destruct as an option to potentially go 2 for 1, break through a team, or as a last resort to prevent a sweep. Negatives are that it gets walled by Rock and Ghost types.

2. Reflect + Rest + Hyper Beam: Hyper Beam is incredibly helpful for getting rid of things that just won't die. Negatives are that it gets walled by Rock and ghost types.

3. Body Slam + EQ + Hyper Beam + Self Destruct: This is probably my favorite Snorlax set, but it requires you to run mons that are considered less consistent, i.e. . But it's really good at wall breaking, then blowing up. It unfortunately still gets walled by Cloyster, but Cloyster doesn't want to get paralyzed. Because Reflect Lax is so common, opponents may let you Hyper Beam them, if you reveal EQ, just b/c they don't expect it.

4. Reflect + Rest + Ice Beam: A lax that specializes in beating other lax. It has issues getting over things like Counter Chansey, but it does beat Rhydon and other Rock types. If Rhydon is being favored, this may be a good option. The mirror seems lame. I see beating opposing Snorlax more important than not being stopped by the likes of Gengar.

5. Bolt Beam Amnesia + Selfdestruct: Great for forcing in Chansey, and maybe tricking . Not much walls it outside of and it still has a chance to remove it before attempting to blow up. Being able to remove Chansey can make way for special attackers such as and . Not really sure how it fairs against Cloyster. Though, when I used this set on a Triple Psychic team, I felt that I was at a disadvantage.

6. Reflect + Rest + Earthquake: I feel that most people know it for not getting stopped by Gengar, but I think its ability to get over Counter Chansey is the important bit, to me. It also can beat Rhydon and Golem. I'm just not really a fan of Reflect+EQ lax since it lacks the power that Hyper Beam provides. I suppose not getting halted by specific threats may be better than I think it is, but it can still be stopped by unparalyzed Chansey and opposing Lax. If I run into Counter a lot, and I need Reflect Lax, I am definitely using this set.

A
7. Body Slam + Counter + Hyper Beam/Earthquake + Self Destruct: Might be able to run this on triple Psychic teams due to Counter. I tend to avoid Counter since it feels inconsistent, but I can't deny its power. Missing EQ or Beam can kind of suck.

8. Body Slam + Reflect + Hyper Beam/Earthquake + Self Destruct: Arguably a trick set, instead of Rest, you have Self Destruct. Showing Relfect and EQ/Beam may make it more likely to blow up on the right mon.

9. Body Slam + Blizzard + Amensia + Self Destruct: I probably prefer Self Destruct over rest as a "things went wrong, I want an out" button. Has some wall breaking capabilities, and its ability to ignore opposing Snorlax's Reflect is nice.

B
10. Body Slam + Blizzard + Rest + Amnesia: One of the first sets I started out with. Amnesia is very alluring. I've fallen out of favor of this set, b/c Cloyster makes me sad. A potential sweeper I suppose.

11. Body Slam + Blizzard + Hyper Beam/Earthquake + Self Destruct: Not sure how I feel about this one, but it appears to be aiming to hit Rhydon hard, while also masking its set.

B-
12. Bide + Relfect + Rest: The one that I won't be able to convince anyone that it isn't just jank. It's an anti, anti Snorlax, as in, it out damages opposing Reflect+Ice Beam lax. In order for it to get Bide off, you need to paralyze the opposing Chansey and Snorlax, or just the Chansey and pray to win a speed tie against the opposing lax later, and have Reflect up for protection. A tiny, single, dink from a Body Slam against +2 Def Lax can turn into like 400 damage. Most mons can't take that, (though Substitutes can protect them). The time when Bide fires off is unpredictable, so it makes it hard to time Rest. Bide also makes players do weird stuff like spam Reflect or Rest, allowing you to get a free switch to something else (you can freely switch in gen 1). , in particular, likes free switches into weakened Snorlax. Bide is a tool only to be used against opposing Snorlax, and maybe Chansey under some circumstances. This one ranks higher than a lot of the Amnesia sets in C b/c it still has Body Slam, and b/c of its uses.

To me the suggestion that Counter + Reflect Lax is viable, makes me feel that Bide lax has the potential to also be viable. Since Bide is like a Counter but it works on Ice Beam.

13. Toxic + Reflect: I know some may just see Toxic+Relfect as a meme, but it makes Reflect Chansey switch instead of making your lax switch. And Poison is not so bad against Chansey (depending on your team) since Poison increases the amount of times Chansey is going to use up Softboileds. It also aids your partial trappers. I'm putting this one lower b/c it may rely on running partial trappers, which are probably considered inconsistent. Toxic can also deal damage to opposing Lax as Snorlax Rests. You have to be careful not to poison the wrong mon, but I wouldn't be that too afraid of the possibility to not consider the potential uses of Toxic.

15. Reflect + Counter: A trick set. I've probably only seen this run once, maybe. Not sure how viable it is, but it's cool. Misses out on coverage, a way to bypass Counter, etc. The dex entry calls this a viable option, which is why I bring it up. If Slash users become popular, this set seems quite good. I am still trying to figure out this one's uses, I would need experience with it.

16. Amnesia + Body Slam + Reflect + Rest: If Reflect+Counter has some merit, then mono Normal has merit. A very stally set, but very hard to kill. The dex entry beings this one up, which I am surprised by. I find game ender sets fun, but have been too afraid to use them/not really thought about using them. I originally had this one lower, but I am wondering how it fairs against Ice Beam Lax.

C
17. Amnesia +Thunderbolt + Reflect + Rest: I find Tbolt superior to Ice beam when using Amnesia + Reflect as a game ender. Tbolt has more PP than Ice beam and is capable of demolishing Starmie. I've seen a player that goes by MewtwoSaki use Toxic Zapdos which allows you to lure in Rhydon, pray that it does not have Rest (Rhydon likes Body Slam over Rest for Starmie, it may even run Tail Whip), and poison it so that Snorlax can stall it out. It also appreciates Chansey being poisoned, to make it use up Softboileds.

18. Body Slam + Thunderbolt + Rest/Seldestruct + Amnesia: Never ran this, it's mentioned in the dex entry, but I do like bolt/beam, so I might like this as well.

19. Amnesia + Reflect + Blizzard + Body Slam: A potential game ender set, it lacks Rest, but still has staying power.

20. Amnesia + Ice Beam + Reflect + Rest: This is a freeze fishing set. You can't be too greedy when using it, and you may need to undo all your set up at times. I'm personally not a big fan of this one, but I've seen replays of it used in tournament.

D
20. Lv85 + Seismic Toss: Seems more for fun and outclassed by other options. The person I saw use it had high Elo, which makes me curious if it's better than I think it is, But I've seen High Elo players use unusual things that I don't think work, like Lead Arcanine, which I beat, Agility+Sharpen Porygon, which didn't do anything, and Porygon that just paralyzes something rather than walling Snorlax. I've also run into Lickitung, which I could have beat if Tentacruel didn't miss Hydro Pump.

??? There are still more options like Fish Lax. Not sure how I feel about coverage like Rock Slide or Psychic. Surf + Amnesia sounds not so good to me. Mega Kick and Double Edge seem like weird techs, but if you can find uses for them that's cool.

_____________________________________________________

Feel free to poke holes in my logic or tell me some sets are better or worse than I think they are. I may change my opinion now, or some day in the future. I haven't used Amnesia Lax too much outside of the bolt beam one, so that might be why my opinion on the Amnesia sets are not higher.
Questions
1. How do you feel about single attacking Reflect + Amnesia + Rest sets? Are they viable or just memes?
2. I've noticed that the new sample teams seem to have phased out Amnesia sets, does this say anything about their viability?
3. Is Toxic + Reflect really all that bad? It's mentioned in the dex entry, I've used it and have liked it. I'm convinced that Toxic has its uses and that it's just not spammable like it is in future gens. Snorlax runs Toxic better than Chansey imo.
4. Do you still see Bide lax as Jank? My argument for it not being all that bad is that it allows you to gain free switches, out damage Ice Beam Lax, and it only using up 1 moveslot, I'm not convinced it's that bad, but I will play with more standard teams to try to understand why more standard Snorlax stuff is seen as so good.
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Edit: Ran into a situation where running mono normal lax was very bad, when running a sample team. Player used Chansey as the sleep sack of Gengar, which I'm not used to. Kind of was spacy at the time, but I'm wondering if I was too harsh on EQ Lax.


Edit: I surprised TehTayTay with Bide, I think it really is just underrated... https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen1ou-2020858805