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Gen 4 RoA Speed BKCCAT 2 - Step 6: Final Adjustments

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by sandshrewz, May 3, 2013.

  1. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Agreeing with BKC on the threat list for Raikou. Whether we go SubCM or ChestoRest, those are what we need to deal with(along with random Snorlax). I'm proposing we go a more defensive route, so I decided to go with a 2 'mon core in Roserade and Gyarados:

    [​IMG]

    Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EV's: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature (+SpD, - Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Leaf Storm
    - Rest



    [​IMG]

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EV's: 252 HP / 192 Def / 64 SpD
    Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Roar


    Specially Defensive Roserade can switch into anything that common Water types can throw at it short of Life Orb Starmie's Ice Beam. This takes pressure off Raikou to check Water types. I also agree with BKC that while Roserade is a good lead, it functions better in the midgame and this set gives Roserade the ability to set up Toxic Spikes throughout the match. It also pretty much counters every other bulky Water in OU.

    Gyarados just seems like a natural partner to both Roserade and Raikou. It switches in on everything that would threaten Raikou, including Flygon and Scizor. Gyarados also handles Fighting-types well, which are common in this meta. I went with ResTalk since that's the only Gyarados set that doesn't need support to stick around all game and we don't have to be stressed about carrying a spinner, though spinners are good in general vs. stall. Blowing guys around after TSpikes are down also sounds fun :) .

    Not sure if the EV's I have are the best ones, but they can always be changed later if this does get nominated. I know that Gyara's allows him to switch into the rare Nasty Plot Infernape and not be 2HKO'd. We can easily go the more standard 248 HP | 252 Def | 8 Spe with an Impish nature though. Same for Roserade: I could see going with BKC's set and spread since offensive Rose is quite powerful. The only "issue" with this core is that anyone who has played DPP long enough knows who the Stealth Rocker should be (Heatran). I really, REALLY tried not to go the FWG core route because I don't really like them, but this duo just seems so solid.
  2. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Definitely need Toxic Spikes for maximum effectiveness. There are two good choices. Forretress and Roserade. Both set up Toxic Spikes and can remove the enemy's Toxic Spikes (which non-Rest Raikou loves). Forretress has Rapid Spin support, the other entry hazards, and Explosion (always nice), while Roserade has Sleep Power and a decently reliable recovery option. All in all, at this point in the metagame, I think Forretress requires more support from teammates to be effective while you can put more pressure on the opponent with Roserade and it isn't reliant on a cleric or Wish support (that said, Raikou appreciates those when not running Rest). I like JackieChun's set. I never thought the Lead set was any good. It's too obvious and Toxic Spikes are more of a hassle to set up than Stealth Rock, so it hurts more when they're removed. Defensive sets can set the hazards up multiple times. However, I think the 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD spread might be more useful than going fully Special defensively. Out of the threats in BKC's list, Tyranitar, Flygon, and Scizor (and of course Heatran, but Roserade can't cover that) stand out because they can hit hard quickly with Choice Scarfs or priority. The Defense EVs means their most common sets cannot OHKO Roserade with any of their attacks (Pursuit, Bullet Punch, and Outrage are big ones). It gives you much more leeway in general and you still have an impressive Special Defense.
  3. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Step 3: Teammates Voting

    Why are we having so little participation :( Anyway, moving on~ There seems to be some consensus that Toxic Spikes is really great for Raikou here. All 3 nominations include a Grass-type! Also I slashed in the alternative EV spread Aerodactyl Legend suggested to JackieChun's nom. Let's vote~~
    BKC
    HUARGH
    JackieChun

    This will last ~24 hours! :)
  4. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    bkc again

    i dont like the ev spread of Gyarados less effective to check physical threats such Breloom, Scizor or Machamp. also i think that Hidden Power Groudon is a great lure on Roserade to down Heatran which is one of the best checks of Raikou and is the mon most used on the meta.
  5. Lohgock

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  6. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto

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  7. Funkasaurus

    Funkasaurus i know what is next, but you won't believe me
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    The BKC squad.
  8. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    why dont we just have bkc make a team for us
  9. Frochtejohgurt

    Frochtejohgurt

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    hmm... I vote BKC
  10. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    I believe the main selling point of that spread was avoiding Grass Knot OHKOing from Nasty Plot Infernapeafter Stealth Rock damage. I like the small amount of extra SpD but will admit that threat is pretty old. No one runs NP Ape anymore.

    For the vote.

    Gyarados is a Pokemon I would go with for that Raikou anyways, so might as well get preemptive and set it now.

    I'm skeptical about Roserade with Hidden Power ground however. Yes, it's very crafty, but if I was to run an offensive option like that, I'd rather do it on Celebi with Nasty Plot. However, even excluding that, many Heatran still run Shuca Berry or Choice Scarf. It's only a safe option after knowing what it's holding. I guess if you ever sleep it, the enemy might think it's safe to use it as a switch-in later on (and try to wake it up) but get pounded by a surprise Hidden Power. I don't know. I guess I'd feel better if there's more stuff (you outspeed or can't get killed by) you could hit for significant damage besides Heatran.

    Despite the numbers so far, going with JackieChun, mainly for the set on Roserade.
  11. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    I vote for JackieChun as well.

    I've used full specially defensive Gyarados before (lol I know >_>) and I don't miss the physical bulk too much. Most of the time I use it as an Intimidate pivot and let other Pokemon do the checking for Fighting-types etc instead. However, it does make it more reliant on Rapid Spin too. I also prefer the more physically defensive Roserade spread so Scizor doesn't KO it with Pursuit, though playing more conservatively with Roserade could ease that problem through scouting etc. However HP Ground Roserade would help against like HP Electric Heatran too, something Gyarados just flat out loses too :/
  12. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    Step 4: Teammates, Raikou refining, and Playstyle

    /do I need to count xD

    Here's what we have so far:

    [​IMG]
    Raikou @ Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 48 HP / 56 Def / 184 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute / Rest
    - Calm Mind
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    [​IMG]
    Roserade (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 32 HP / 248 SAtk / 228 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    playstyle: bulky offense / semi-stall

    Don't let BKC hog up the whole thing :p lol! In this step, fill free to nominate 1 up to a core of 3 Pokemon for teammates. Also, do decide on the playstyle and the set that Raikou will be using (SubCM / ChestoRest) in your nomination as well. This should be a good time to decide on them with the third or more Pokemon.

    ~24 hours gogo~!
  13. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 32 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
    Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power
    - Stealth Rock
    - Explosion

    look at me i'm compounding the ground weakness! but not really. i dunno the team seems really scizor weak atm and we could use a scarftran check...shuca takes care of that and also solves the lack of rocks which i expect we'll need. provides some explosion fallback as well. heatran's just a really good poke in general and seems like it would fit on any team, plus i stole the ev spread from bkc so it's still sort of his team right?

    this might be my least confident post ever, i'm no great shakes at dpp
  14. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    [​IMG]

    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    ~ Stealth Rock / Rock Polish (use max speed if rock polish)
    ~ Earthquake
    ~ Wood Hammer
    ~ Stone Edge most likely, or a utility move (Leech Seed / Synthesis / Roar / Rock Polish / Reflect / Light Screen)

    Torterra is quite an amazing pokemon. For starters, it is one of the few mons who resist EdgeQuake. Threats to Raikou are typically weak to either grass or ground and due to Torterra's strong STAB and attacks (120 wood hammer, 100 EQ), Blissey cannot really stay in either. As an additional bonus Torterra is immune to t-wave and takes less damage from stealth rock, it also has access to stealth rock itself. It has absolutely no problems switching into Tyranitar or Hippowdon (bar the uncommon ice beam Tyranitar).

    Thanks to Torterra's beneficial typing and the nature of its role (supplementing Raikou by mostly absorbing ground attacks and the occasional rock attack), a 252 investment in hitpoints give it all the bulk that is required, allowing the remaining 252 EVs to be invested into attack together with an adamant nature. This gives Torterra 348 attack - a number that is no joke - and with strong STAB that is only resisted by bug / flying / grass (the first two are hit for x2 damage by rock, and Torterra learns stone edge as well), Torterra is a force to be reckoned with.

    Sadly, a x4 weak to ice, a weakness to grass and no noticeable resistances to common special attacks (such as water) coupled with a small SDef stat makes Torterra somewhat vulnerable to special attackers or even mixed attackers. Therefor I suggest that we partner it with Heatran:

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers
    ~ Flamethrower
    ~ Explosion
    ~ Stealth Rock (if we don't go with that on Torterra)
    ~

    Arguably the best pokemon in DPP, we should definitely take a closer look at Heatran. EVs and item really depend on the yet-to-be-chosen members of our team, but a specially defensive variant would synergize well with Torterra. Explosion allows for a tactical blow-up after having properly scouted out the enemy team which may open up an opportunity for Raikou to sweep (or Torterra if we give it rock polish and 252 speed EVs).
  15. Aerodactyl Legend

    Aerodactyl Legend

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    Before we even think about going further with completing cores and such, we should finally decide what Raikou is going to do. Is it going to use Rest or not? In one hand, with Rest, you can continue setting up in the face of a Specially defensive wall and Rest off the damage and status. You have less of a need of a cleric with this as well. On the other, the Chesto Berry essentially gives you one chance to make it count. Once it's gone, you better hope you've already cleared out all counters or potential checks. For the most part I'm set on using Substitute instead of Rest. When he's got a few Calm Minds, Substitute is such a good safety net against faster checks with powerful physical moves.


    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hydro Pump
    - Trick

    -Or-

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    -Thunderbolt
    -Shadow Ball
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Hydro Pump


    With that said, shouldn't we still be focused on Toxic Spikes? It's a huge deal for a team that uses it. Making sure it goes up should be the number one priority for the team. Making sure they stay up should be the second, so Rotom-W as a spin-blocker is a no-brainer. Its Hydro Pump makes switching into it a very difficult proposition at times. Especially if you don't know the sat. You could get hit by a STAB attack, it's special move, Thunder Wave, Will-O-Wisp, or Trick. Almost nothing can be a safeguard against all of those, so mispredict and you could have one of your Pokemon crippled. These options are dangerous against Raikou's main counters.

    Choice Specs will allow you to make the most of Rotom-W's attacks. If you're not attacking, Trick is a thorn to Tyranitar, Scizor, Hippowdon, anyone who has no use for the item. You still have speed later on to outpace Heatran, Lucario, and keep a Speed-tie with other Rotom-A without Scarf.

    The Defensive set is also a good choice and can directly shut down the physical threats who Raikou loses to with Will-O-Wisp. While it could be interfered by your own Toxic Spikes, it's an option for times you don't have the hazards down. Regardless, it hits those who are immune to them, like Scizor, Flygon, Dragonite, some Jirachi. When using the set, just make sure you don't put yourself in a position tobe checkmated by Tyranitar, who's already a threat to Raikou.
  16. BKC

    BKC
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    ok right now we need some defensive backbone. close combats, earthquakes, stone edges are all going to rock our shit, which is why i'm hesitant to put on heatran (atm) because even though it's the best sr user etc it makes tyranitar even more terrifying. so after some thought, here is a core that i think would work well.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SDef
    Impish Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Payback / Spikes / Protect / Gyro Ball
    - Explosion / Spikes / Protect / Gyro Ball


    sr. spin is useful in general but it's really good when gyara's also in the picture. if spiritomb uses pursuit, you can drop payback. emergency boom is always good. spikes for more residual damage. protect is rarely seen but it's great for scouting choice mons and getting leftovers recovery. forre obviously really likes having heatran out of the picture so hp ground roserade is pretty much his best friend.

    Spiritomb (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 SDef
    Sassy / Calm Nature (+SDef, -Spd/Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pursuit / Sleep Talk (note: doesn't need to be used with Rest)
    - Pain Split / Rest


    really underrated mon. blocks spin, rapes other ghosts, checks lots of threats. when combined with gyara, tomb ensures we have absolutely 0 trouble against every physical mon (bar tyranitar, but the last mon i had in mind for this team handles him, plus he's worn down by tspikes so get em down fast!).

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 228 Def / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Waterfall
    - Roar / Dragon Dance
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk


    don't worry, the loss in physical bulk gained by running impish isn't that big a deal. roar is nice for phazing but restalk dd is surprisingly threatening with tspikes support. intimidate is a lifesaver.

    i have a really good idea of what to use in the last slot if this is chosen but since we're only allowed to nom 3 at a time this is what you get for now.

    subcm vs. chestorest isn't that big a deal... we can decide on that later. it's preference for the most part.

    also, can we slash in occa berry on roserade?

    somewhat related,
    it's up there but i think that title goes to tyranitar/jirachi/maybe even starmie
  17. scorpdestroyer

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    [​IMG] @ Leftovers
    Trait: Torrent
    252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Beam / Toxic
    - Stealth Rock / Roar
    - Protect

    Swampert sports decent type synergy with Roserade as it tanks Fire-type attacks well and its terrible weakness to grass is covered by Roserade. It also acts as a good physical tank which the team currently lacks. Why I am proposing Swampert is because the team currently lacks a good counter to Sp Def Heatran (Roserade can dent it but not switch in) as well as random fire moves which Swampert can take. Swampert also KOs Heatran with Earthquake. Ice Beam is good for taking down Flygon and Dragonite. SR is an almost mandatory hazard which Swampert can set up reliably. If we get another SR user then Roar is good for forcing hazard damage as well as scouting. Finally Protect allows Swampert to scout, which is an important tool in DPP, and also screws over things that want to go boom on it.

    Another thing is that this Swampert doesn't give a shit which team style we are using because it's so versatile.

    Sub > Rest on Raikou imo. Safety is so important and it's better than using a turn to rest
  18. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Throwin' it up from back court at the buzzer:

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar (M) @ Babiri Berry
    Trait: Sand Stream
    EV's: 148 Atk / 108 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature (+Spe, - Def)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Pursuit
    - Flamethrower
    - Superpower/Earthquake


    A slightly different take on MixTar. The biggest difference is Babiri Berry over what is usually Expert Belt. It harkens back to the days when Fire Punch DDTar carried Babiri Berry to bait and KO Scizor, which this set also does. All but the most specially defensive of Scizor are KO'd if they dare stay in. Only Scarf Scizor gets away. Babiri Berry allows Ttar to survive even a +2 Life Orb Bullet Punch if it hasn't taken SR damage and comfortably takes a CB Bullet Punch regardless. Pursuit for Rotom-A since Raikou isn't getting through it without multiple boosts. Superpower is good for Blissey and you can Pursuit it when you force it out until it's in KO range. Earthquake if you want to guarantee KO any Heatran, though Heatran is forced out anyway.

    [​IMG]

    Gyarados (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    EV's: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SpA)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Waterfall
    - Roar


    I still haven't given up on ResTalk Gyarados lol. This time I'm nominating the standard spread but with a little speed creep to beat other ResTalk Gyarados and anything slower in the Roar game. Again, it's something that can last all game thanks to the semi-reliable recovery. It's our switch for physical attackers like Infernape, Flygon and Scizor which we need at this point. It's also a great switch-in to Specially Defensive Heatran since they tend to carry Lava Plume and you don't want to risk Ttar getting burned.

    GyaraTar can't handle bulky Waters, but we have Roserade and Raikou on the team so the duo fits nicely IMO. I nominated these two with ChestoRest Raikou in mind. It just seems more interesting to me and SubCM just feels very "been there, done that". The biggest thing I like about ChestoRest is that it's less vulnerable to TSpikes if you face an opponent that uses them. With SubCM, if TSpikes are down on our side of the field, Roserade is forced to come in at some point to remove them or Raikou isn't sweeping. ChestoRest takes that pressure off Roserade. Also, Adamant Scarf Flygon always breaks the Sub with U-turn given the current EV spread. On the flip side though, Jolly never does so if 'Gon breaks the Sub at least you know what nature it's running.

    I guess I'll nominate for bulky offense. With Raikou and offensive Roserade, it seems to be the route we are going.
  19. sandshrewz

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    Step 4: Teammates, Raikou refining, and Playstyle Voting

    @BKC sure we can slash in Occa Berry during another refinement step~ If anyone wants to nominate with Occa Berry Roserade in mind in the next step, feel free to do so. BKC definitely being bold here with a core of 3 haha. Let's see if this will truly become a BKCCAT LOL. Hopefully not :p Vote away~!

    ~24 hours as well! :)
  20. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I was in the middle of making this post while you made your "vote now" post Shrewz, can it be eligible?

    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/252 Spe (different EV spreads are welcome)
    -Earthquake
    -Taunt
    -Roost
    -Toxic/Stealth Rock/U-turn

    So Gliscor resists CCs, is immune to EQs, and has high enough defense and a fast EQ to deal with Ttar and its SEs. Plus it's a solid answer to Scizor to boot, and with its Speed and typing it seems to cover most other Physical threats (bar Mamoswine and Machamp) that plague our team with relative ease, and all in one Pokemon slot to boot, giving us more freedom in choosing other teammates.

    As for the set, the first three are pretty standard on Gliscor, and the last is up in the air. Toxic gives us the ol' Britscor, which gives us a weapon in dealing with stall teams while waiting for Toxic Spikes to deal with Raikou's counters, since Taunt can prevent stallers from Recovering and Toxic can punish fliers/levitators (bar Bronzong/Skarm, who can nary do anything in return anyway thanks to a fast Taunt) who might think that they're safe from Tspikes. Also Toxic makes a nice backup in case Tspikes get picked up by a stray opposing Roserade or whatever, in which case even a spinblocker wouldn't help keep our hazards up. However, if we're lacking in the SR department, we can always slap that on Gliscor, and if we feel Gliscor might be better suited to scouting than messing with stalls for whatever reason, U-turn is an option as well. With Gliscor stallbreaking for us, whichever Raikou would work better against offensive teams is probably best, although I like ChestoRest because of the aforementioned opposing Tspikes issue.
  21. BKC

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    relying on gliscor as a tyranitar counter may result in getting swept by dd ice punch variants!

    voting for my core and semistall
  22. HUARGH

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    Voting for myself, I don't have a particular preference for style as long as it isn't offensive so anything like from stall/semi-stall/bulky offense/set-up etc. is fine with me.
  23. Mylo Xyloto

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  24. ModestGarchomp

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    Lavos Spawn Bulky Offense
  25. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    I can't edit it in right now but yea Jorgen's nomination can be voted as well :)

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