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RU Theorymonning

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by Kenny, Apr 20, 2013.

  1. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Heres a quick theorymon i thought of while i was out!

    What if Poliwrath had No Guard?

    [​IMG]

    Looking at Poliwrath's movepool a little bit, i think that No Guard would improve Poliwrath quite a bit, and possibly make it one of the most frustrating Pokemon to face in the entire tier. Like the two other main abusers of No Guard already available: Machamp and Golurk, Poliwrath has the ability to use DynamicPunch: a decently powerful Fighting-type STAB with a 100% chance to confuse the opponent, but terrible accuracy. Because of Poliwrath's STAB on the move and good defensive typing, i think it'd make a fine user of the move with No Guard taken into account, giving common switch ins a 50% chance to hurt themselves whenever they came in on the move, possibly turning a loss into a win or buying Poliwrath free turns. However, unlike Machamp and Golurk, Poliwrath has another, potentially incredibly frustrating move that could be boosted by No Guard, Hypnosis. Hypnosis usually isn't used competitively because of its terrible accuracy, but with No Guard, Hypnosis essentially turns into Spore, except it can't be stopped by Sap Sipper Pokemon such as Bouffalant, making it slightly more annoying. This means Poliwrath could essentially take any Pokemon out of the match when it safely switches in, which is once again relatively easy to do because of its good defensive typing. Hell, Poliwrath has access to some decently powerful but inaccurate Special moves such as Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, and Blizzard, so i could see some kind of Choice Specs set being at least somewhat viable with No Guard, especially with Vacuum Wave put in the mix (although this set would be hard walled by Slowking :/). Anyways, heres an example set of Poliwrath that i think might become quite effective with No Guard.

    [​IMG]
    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Hypnosis
    - DynamicPunch
    - Waterfall

    This set would make full use of Poliwrath's new toys given to it by No Guard's perfect accuracy, and would definitely make it a very annoying threat to face. Basically, Poliwrath would be able to force a lot of switches between its good defensive typing and alright bulk, as well as the threat of No Guard Hypnosis and DynamicPunch, giving it perfect opportunities to set up a Substitute. After Poliwrath's Substitute has been set up, its free to use Hypnosis to immediately take out an opposing Pokemon, or simply confuse things with a decently powerful DynamicPunch, all behind the safety of its Substitute. Furthermore DynamicPunch Confusion and Hypnosis Sleep would give Poliwrath even more opportunities to set up a Substitute, continuing the cycle of Substitute and Confusion. Waterfall is used in the last slot as a solid secondary STAB move that would give Poliwrath a bit more PP to make up for the low 8 PP of DynamicPunch, and would also give Poliwrath an effective way to damage Ghost-types such as Spiritomb and Rotom, who are immune to DynamicPunch. The given evs give Poliwrath enough Speed to outpace Misdreavus, Qwilfish, and Max speed Bouffalant, while the rest of the evs maximize Poliwrath's power and bulk, although more could be placed into either hp or speed depending on whether you want to take hits better or be able to Dynamicpunch before more Pokemon could move. Of course, this set would struggle with common threats such as Slowking, Amoonguss, and Tangrowth, which could be potentially annoying, but Poliwrath can always put them to sleep, or simply wear them down with DynamicPunch confusion, forcing them to regenerate.

    So, how threatening do you think No Guard Poliwrath would be if at all? Would it make Poliwrath any more viable on teams other than say stall or defensive balance? What might players use to combat the combination of No Guard Hypnosis and DynamicPunch?
    Nozzle, Celever and Kenny like this.
  2. EonX

    EonX @TheEonX
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    No Guard Poliwrath: While the Hypnosis frustrations would definitely give people fits, Poliwrath does have a pretty wide physical movepool to work with. I could see an all-out offensive set getting some use. Something along the lines of DynamicPunch, Waterfall, Ice Punch/Rock Slide, and Substitute with the EV spread Molk mentioned as this would let it get pretty good coverage in the tier and hit some common switch-ins really hard. How long it would actually stay RU would be another story since it would just be a thorn in the side of many OU rain teams thanks to its Fighting STAB crushing Ferrothorn, and a 100% accurate Hypnosis to put whatever it wants to sleep at will.
    Kingler12345 likes this.
  3. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    What if Accelgor got Sleep Powder?
    [​IMG]

    How do you think this would affect the metagame?
  4. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    Sleep Powder would help Accelgor decently. It could then act as an excellent lead similar to Smeargle with Sleep Powder & Spikes, although the accuracy of Sleep Powder could cause some trouble. I can see an crazy lead set that could be a constant annoyance.

    [​IMG]
    Accelgor@Focus Sash / Leftovers
    Timid | Sticky Hold
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Hypnosis
    -Spikes
    -Baton Pass
    -Bug Buzz

    I can see this set working pretty well. The usual sequence of events would be Hypnosis, Spikes, and BP out when trouble appears; the best part is dry passing if a spinner like Cryogonal shows up. It can also be a great utility Pokemon on offensive teams. With its great Speed, it can halt any momentum of opposing sweepers that aren't too fast with Sleep if they can't be OHKOed. Stopping threats like Sceptile, Emboar, and Swellow without locking into a Choice item. I can see its usage bring primarily on offensive to balanced teams looking to set up Spikes with Hypnosis or balanced teams looking to halt offensive teams.

    I think, Hypnosis wouldn't help Accelgor too much although it would definitely give it more usage!

    EDIT:


    [​IMG]

    What if Ferroseed got Synthesis? The flavor works because all Grass-types should be able to do this, and besides durian fruits grow in the sun :p

    A common compliant I have with Ferroseed is that it dies a bit too quickly. Synthesis makes it really difficult to take down and can replace Leech Seed on its movesets. The advantage of Leech Seed is that it doesn't boost Sap Sippers and does give more direct healing, although the passive damage is really handy for defensive teams. A problem is that Ferroseed suffers from 4MSS already so Synthesis could get the boot depending on how Ferroseed is to function. Hail reduces the healing to a paltry amount but Leech Seed isn't effected.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  5. -Sparkbeat-

    -Sparkbeat-

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    Synthesis Ferroseed: I really can't see this gaining much steam at the moment. One reason is that it just adds more competition for the race between moves for a slot on the seed. I can see it being used much much more if Hail does get the boot. Heck I can see it being used over Leech Seed in almost every case except Rain Dance Teams. Ferroseed could grow in popularity as a Sun setter thanks to synergizing well with the Fire spammers and now having an extremely good way of recovery.

    Not sure if this has been brought up before, but with hail possibly receiving the boot soon, What if Rotom-F got Ice Beam? Rotom-F has been the premiere hail scarfer mainly for its amazing STAB coverage, while retaining an extremely powerful 100% accurate Blizzard. Now, one of its STAB's is weakened, but you no longer have to run Snover to achieve this coverage. Now you can run this scarfer (Or Expert Belt user, Subsplit, Choice Specs, etc) on your normal team and have coverage on everything bar Magneton. I can see him getting very high use, maybe even more use than it already receives. It still has horrendous defensive typing and a crippling Stealth Rocks weakness, but now it doesn't rely so heavily on Snover and the opponent not having a weather setter. It's late and I'm really bad at theorymoning so I've probably left a ton of things untouched. Anyone else have anything to add on this matter?
  6. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    Well if Rotom-F got Ice Beam it would be used a hell of a lot more. It'd have almost perfect coverage with it's STABs and no longer be restricted to hail. It would probably be in the Top 3 used. Also, Lanturn would rise dramatically in use, since it's the only sure bet against Rotom-F.
  7. Lasagne

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    Treecko mentioned using a SubSplit set in STABmons, but with Ice Beam > Blizzard, and apparently it did awesomely. I think this set would be awesome, and incredibly annoying to play around if you don't have something like Cinccino to break the sub and kill. The main reason Rotom-F is NU in the first place is because of its innacurate (and only) Ice STAB. Ice Beam resolves this problem, so it becomes very effective in and out of hail. As Mack said, Lanturn would rise in popularity somewhat, as with its good special bulk, it can wall Rotom-F for days on end. Piloswine is in the same boat. Obviously this is pretty much irrelephant if hail isn't banned, since you can just use Snover and spam Blizzards all day erry day.
  8. Explorer

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    What if Ambipom came to RU?

    I like this one because Ambipom is an underrated sweeper in UU. Hail teams would definitely suffer, as Fake Out break Snover's sashes, and it has Double Hit (boosted by Technician) to break Walrein's subs. Its Low Sweep also does a number on many hail Pokemon.

    This would just be another toy for offensive teams since Ambipom is excellent at achieving momentum thanks to Fake Out (Ambipom's one niche over Cinccino) and a fast U-turn. These types of teams love spikestacking (Qwilfish, Scolipede, Ferroseed, etc.), and Ambipom makes it all the more potent.

    Last but not least, Smeargle leads would become much less popular, as Ambipom can Fake Out + Low Sweep and promptly destroy Smeargle. Still, IMO Ambipom is basically another Cinccino with different coverage moves.
  9. Celever

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    What if Virizion was RU?

    I would love this, I love using more defensively aligned teams, and a Virizion and Lanturn core would be amazing. They cover eachother's weaknesses amazingly -- Virizion's weaknesses: Flying, Fire, Ice, Psychic. Lanturn's Weaknesses: Grass, Electric (without volt absorb), Ground. The only thing not resisted here is Psychic, and you have 4 other teamslots for that. The pokemon which I find troublesome to this core is Aerodactyl, with Earthquake and Flying STAB, but using your own Aerodactyl removes this problem. Then I would just use two cleaners (or even three, you could use Absol as a cleaner and psychic immunity -- or Spiritomb, a hazard setter and one cleaner). Basically I would love Virizion in UR.
  10. Turtleye

    Turtleye

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    What if Dusknoir got a better STAB, like Shadow Force, instead of Shadow Punch(lol)?
    With no secondary type while being a physical attacker, Dusknoir is arguably the worst attacking Pokemon if it comes down to STABs, with 60 BP Shadow punch being the highest it can get. However, it's 100 base attack stat is nothing to laugh at and if Dusknoir would learn Shadow Force, along with the move Earthquake, it actually has some pretty nice coverage on the tier, and it can even go to the Elemental Punches if it needs so. So what do you think, would Dusknoir rise in usage if it gets a better STAB?
  11. Branflakes325

    Branflakes325

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    Shadow Force would be cool to have on Dusknoir, but it's still an unreliable move that will often bait a switch to a Normal type or resist. Alternatively, I mentioned Dusknoir getting Technician. This would give its primary stab Shadow Punch a respectable 90 base power, while giving it a very usable Technician Shadow Sneak, Pursuit, and 90 base power Bulldoze(probably better than EQ).

    Furthermore, its low HP is still a blessing in disguise as it allows Dusknoir to work more effectively with Pain Split. Unfortunately this does not save Dusknoir from being a poor defensive pokemon in this respect, so how about this...

    What if Dusknoir got Technician and Recover/Moonlight?
  12. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    What if Dusknoir got Technician? and Recover/Moonlight?
    I honestly don't think this would effect much at all, Dusknoir only gets two moves that it could abuse with its new abillity, Shadow Sneak and Shadow Punch. Despite the attack boost, the only 'important' new benchmarks are having a chance to OHKO Medicham and more-reliably killing a few mons like bulky Rotom, Golurk, CP Sigi (lol), and Hitmonlee. I don't even think these are that notable lol...idk i may be wrong it may be a lot better but idk... However, I'm not quite sure how i think about the Recovery move. Pain Split is nice because of Dusknoir's low HP stat, but at the same time it's a LOT less reliable than Recover/Moonlight.

    Synthesis Ferroseed?
    The moveslot issue that Lunatic Lies mentioned wasn't a lie, I could see that being a problem definitely. However, most things that stop Ferroseed are gonna come in right away and probably OHKO it (thinking Fire types here), so I think maybe Leech Seed is the better option as it also chips away at your opponent's health.

    What if Rotom-F got Ice Beam?
    This would be really cool for utilizing Rotom-F outside of hail without having to rely on Blizzard's shoddy accuracy. It would basically fill the same role it fills on Hail teams, only on other playstyles with a slightly weaker STAB. However it would probably get a lot more use outside of Hail teams (obviously) and would be an interesting Ice-type to fill that Scarfer role in a team, or even use SubSplit (I've never tried this before, so I can't really say much on it).

    What if Accelgor got Sleep Powder?
    This would be really cool, considering how speedy this thing is. The only common things that outspeed it are Scarfed Electrics like Manectric and Rotom-C/Rotom, although of course priority kinda owns it. Either way, this is the fastest non-scarfed mon in the tier with access to a Sleep move, how more awesome can you get? Mentioned by Yonko, it could be a cool lead set similar to Smeargle, only loads faster and without Stealth Rocks.

    What if Ambipom came to RU?
    Hmm honestly I don't think this would be a big deal, although I could be wrong. I think Ambipom would be largely outclassed by Cinccino as a normal type, as it has better coverage and a more useful/harder hitting STAB move, although it doesn't have access to a strong Fake Out like Ambipom does (I'm not a big fan of Fake Out anyways really). Also, Ambipom has that strong Fighting move that Cinccino lacks, to get past those Steel types (although 252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 125-148 (35.31 - 41.8%) -- 85.23% chance to 3HKO kinda blows...) However I think it wouldn't be a horrible mon like some people say in UU (I have no opinion on it, I don't play UU) but it wouldn't be a meta-changing addition, I don't think.

    What if Poliwrath had No Guard?
    i would quit pokemon
  13. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    What if Ambipom dropped to RU?

    [​IMG]

    I wouldn't exactly brush this off too quickly and say its going to be useless, because even though Ambipom isn't exactly a great Pokemon, it does serve as a pretty relevant threat in regards to offensive teams due to Fake Out. Fake Out is honestly a pretty cool move coming off of Ambipom and it does quite a bit of free damage on the opponent unless they are a Ghost-type. The fact that it does damage and flinches the opponent can be useful in a few ways.
    1. If Ambipom can't kill an opponent it can use Fake Out to push the opponent into the KO range assuming the opponent is slower, which is pretty frequent considering how fast Ambipom is.
    2. If the opponent is a sweeper not called Omastar or Aggron and is at a high enough health, Ambipom can use Fake Out, switch out, and use Fake Out again, and potentially avert the crisis.
    3. Fake Out also out-priorizes Entei's Extremespeed and does around 36% to it, so in case it is sweeping you late game with said attack, Ambipom can possibly save you (by this point Entei is probably worn down a bit)
    Unlike Cinccino, Ambipom also doesn't attract Ghost-types and Steel-types as easily. Spiritomb is an exception, but it can OHKO Rotom, Aggron (with Low Kick only though), possibly Escavalier if it decides to use Fire Punch. This makes it a bit harder to find free switch into on offensive teams where you probably aren't packing something that walls it, as you got these things, Fake Out, and a Return that is by no means weak. And of course, that Technician Fake Out is a big reason to use Ambipom, something that Cinccino can't do because, obviously, it lacks Fake Out.

    Ambipom would come with a huge case of 4MSS in RU unfortunately, which would kind of limit what it is capable of doing. Fake Out, Return, and Low Kick are pretty standard, but Beat Up, Shadow Claw, and U-turn are all rather viable in this case, and then you got the "deal with the specifics" with Fire Punch and Seed Bomb doing more some of the Pokemon that could otherwise deal with it (Omastar, Escavalier, 2HKOing Rhydon). Ambipom is also kinda meh against stall and balance teams because quite a few Pokemon wall it and it gets worn down by literally everything, although this issue is present for similar fast offensive Pokemon too.

    Overall, Ambipom wouldn't be amazing by any means, but the traits that it brings onto the table gives a bit of offensive utility to work with, and it certainly isn't outclassed by Cinccino imo as a result of all these advantages (a more comparable Pokemon would be Kangaskhan, who has bulk, Sucker Punch, and Scrappy over it but has a much weaker Fake Out and is slower). I doubt it would change anything relevant though, although its presence is a big annoyance for Hyper Offensive teams.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2013
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  14. Mack the Knife

    Mack the Knife Goodbye Smogon! I may return, I may not!
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    What if Dragonair got Speed Boost?
    [​IMG]

    Do you think this would have a significant impact on the metagame? Or would it Dragonair still be underwhelming? Discuss.
  15. EJ190

    EJ190

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    This is my 1st post here so bear with me.
    What if Own Tempo prevented a pokemon from being locked into a move from choice items or moves like encore, petal dance, thrash etc?
    For eg, smeargle can now use scarf to boost its speed while still being able to switch moves. Lilligant can use a choice item with petal dance to hit things hard right off the bat. There are others as well like grumpig, purugly, lickilicky who would be more powerful/faster methinks. How would this affect the meta?
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  16. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Druddigon with Weak Armor!

    Just came up with this. Druddigon already has top notch bulk and attack with the typing to boot. Druddigon's downfall has always been that it is slow, and thus almost always must take a hit before dishing out one. Well Weak Armor deals with this. Considering dragons can fly and should be fast, it could be possible flavorwise for Druddigon to lose its spines and therefore become faster. Since the defense is dropping but the speed is going up, this would masterful, because it would sacrifice bulk in exchange for speed. This would be interesting because Druddi maintains its good bulk on the special side to be able to take Grass/Fire/Water type moves fine, since they are mostly Specially based. However, the exchange speed for bulk can be important for Choice Band sets. eg: CB Druddigon switches into ScarfBoar Flare Blitz and gets Speed Boost. You then click on Outrage and watch things die, but now since you outspeed stuff like Kabutops, they die too!
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  17. Kenny

    Kenny don't expect me

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    What if Own Tempo prevented a pokemon from being locked into a move from choice items or moves like encore, petal dance, thrash etc? -EJ190
    This is a really cool, original idea! Props to you for that man. So, this would be REALLY cool especially on, like you said, Lilligant would be able to abuse this excellently with Choice Specs or Scarf, spamming Petal Dances all day with both a Quiver Boost and either a speed or power boost. Also with things like Scarf, it'd be able to pull of the regular scarf's utility of being a fast sleeper while still being able to not be forced out by stuff like Sleep Talk Emboar/Escavalier/Entei and instead blasting it with an attacking move. Smeargle, as you mentioned, could abuse Scarf although then it loses that important focus sash so I'm not so sure on that =/ SLOWKING!! Imagine Specs only being able to switch moves, that would be outright ridiculously powerful. However, if you choose to use that then Slowking misses out on one of its coolest perks: Regenerator. Without Regenerator, Slowking loses a LOT of that survivability aspect that makes it so good. I'm not quite sure this is a trade off many people would be willing to make either, but its definitely considerable! Tbh though, when I'm using Specs Slowking I find myself usually just spamming Surf/Scald (yea I use Scald AND Surf on Specs Slowking because my tutor is crazy), so I'm not sure losing that all-important hp recovery would be worth it. However, I almost forgot about this, but Slowking can have the nice recovery move Slack Off while blasting shit with the power of Specs, so thats something to think about as well (I almost forgot about this thanks to DTC for reminding me).
  18. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Hmmmm, heres something i just thought of, it doesn't make perfect sense because among Bug-types its usually only given to things with wings, but Lilligant gets the move and its not even a bug, so i don't think that should be a huge issue.

    What if Galvantula learned Quiver Dance?

    [​IMG]

    Galvantula in well known in RU for being a threatening special attacker with good special attack, high speed, and two great STABs in Electric and Bug in the current metagame. This would mean of course, that Quiver Dance would be a welcome upgrade for the spider, especially given its a Bug-type. Quiver Dance would allow Galvantula to boost its offensive capabilities significantly in just one turn by forcing a switch, gaining quite a bit of power on its Thunder and Bug Buzz and outpacing pretty much the entire tier, including Choice Scarf Manectric after a boost, ensuring nothing can revenge kill it outside of priority once it gets going. Quiver Dance also gives Galvantula a nice boost in Special Defense, which might allow it to take a weaker special move in a pinch. Looking at all of this, i'm pretty sure Quiver Dance Galvantula would be a pretty big threat, but i don't think it'd end up being totally unstoppable in the long run for one reason: its Extreme fraility. Galvantula would still struggle with its poor bulk all around and its Stealth Rock weakness, which would dramatically shorten its overall lifespan and the amount of set up opportunities the spider would have in the current metagame, it would also make it easier to take out via priority such as Absol's Sucker Punch and Entei's ExtremeSpeed (even weaker priority moves like Aqua Jet do 40%+), and while the quick Special defense boost might help out in some circumstances, galvy still might not end up having the raw bulk to take a special hit even after a boost, especially if Stealth Rock had been set up. Despite this setback though, i think Quiver Dance would be a welcome improvement on Galvantula, and would definitely make it stronger in the current meta, what do you think?
    Explorer likes this.
  19. MicfiJasan

    MicfiJasan

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    No Guard Poliwrath: As much as I love the idea of Offensive Poliwrath, I'm way more excited for Hypnosis. No Guard Dynamicpunch is cool in theory, but practically as a strategy is underwhelming. The other Pokemon who get it (Golurk, Machamp in UU) aren't really considered particularly effective. It's quite reliant on hax to succeed, something kinda like Liepard but with a bit more oomph and quite a bit more bulk, and less levels of annoyance. He's still walled by the same things that wall his SubPunch set, including prominent Pokemon like Qwilfish, Uxie, and Slowking. Slowking especially is a pain, since he can always switch to regain health he might have lost to confusion, not to mention he usually runs min attack. Hypnosis is what might make this set really dangerous, since iirc sleep doesn't block confusion. This makes him even harder to beat since you essentially have to have two things to beat him since he can Sub up on the switch, allowing him to easily choose what to Sleep. In addition, he hits some of the common Sleep Talkers super-effectively like Emboar and Entei. Sleep Talk usage would change to things that can beat both Poliwrath and other Sleep abusers like Lilligant, Tangrowth, Jynx. Galvantula sticks out as something that can hit all of them super effectively with its STABs, and has enough natural speed to outrun all of them if they don't boost immediately. Cinccino can't come in on Dynamicpunch, but can revenge through Subs with Bullet Seed. Own Tempo Lilligant can tank 1 Dynamicpunch and regain some of it back with Giga Drain (or go for the KO with Petal Dance lategame) without worrying about confusion. Own Tempo Slowking is the hardest counter available, but I don't think it's worth giving up Regenerator.

    Quiver Dance Galvantula: I don't think Galvantula gets it since its Japanese name is Butterfly Dance (though Lilligant isn't a butterfly either). That said, he does have quite the stat line to use it, and just thinking about +1 Thunder is scary. He can 2HKO every RU poke at +1 outside of Curse Quagsire, which can change if he runs Giga Drain. Given his high speed, it's pretty hard to revenge kill, not to mention that just about everything faster can be OHKOed by something in his arsenal. This leaves physical attackers that can tank 1 hit or so as the main counters, Druddigon, Bulky Gallade, and Rhydon (not for Giga Drain variants) chief among them.

    Own Tempo changes:Own Tempo is already "useful" for random things like Dynamicpunch, but I'll consider it for removing the locking caused by Outrage/Petal Dance. Of course, Lilligant is really the only thing this applies to in RU. Firing off 120 BP STAB with no drawbacks is awesome, even though Grass isn't the best attacking type. It makes Petal Dance Lilligant that much harder to revenge kill. To refute the other points, I don't see GameFreak giving a free 1.5x boost to Own Tempo users, even though the abusers aren't all that threatening. Stuff like Specs Slowking could be UU worthy (depending on whether Slowbro coincidentally rises to OU).

    Ambipom in RU: Agreeing with Swamp-Rocket that Kangaskhan is the closest comparison, considering he is the other main Fake Out user. My experience with Kangaskhan is that he is kind of an emergency button for certain sweepers with Fake Out + Sucker Punch. I see Ambipom functioning similarly, but sacrificing priority for greater speed. Cinccino outclasses it as a pure attacker, Cinccino even has Technician but doesn't use it because it gives him a 125 BP STAB vs. the 90 BP that you'd usually see with Technician.
  20. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Here's something that i've been thinking about for a while that could be interesting, albiet occasionally infuriating.

    What if Zweilous learned Sucker Punch and Pursuit?

    [​IMG]

    Zweilous has the potential to be an annoying Pokemon even now, although its movepool is a bit shallow, being limited to only Outrage/Crunch/Superpower offensively as it doesn't get moves like Dragon Claw, Dragon Dance, Sucker Punch etc. I think with Sucker Punch and Pursuit in Zweilous's arsenal, it might become more common and effective in the RU tier. Because of Hustle, Zwei's Sucker Punch and Pursuit would be among the strongest in the entire game, and because the Dragon is pretty bulky to boot, it'd find quite a few opportunities to switch in and use them to either Pick off faster Pokemon, or trap annoying threats such as Slowking, Uxie, and Calm Mind Sigilyph. All while Zweilous's combination of bulk with Eviolite and resistances would leave it protected from what they might attempt to do in return. There is one downside to Zweilous though, one that's pretty much unavoidable, and that is the accuracy drop given by Hustle. Because of Hustle, Zweilous's Sucker Punch and Pursuit would only reach 80% accuracy, making them somewhat unreliable, missing a Sucker Punch on a crucial turn is quite annoying, and missing a well placed Pursuit is almost cringeworthy, especially if you needed to pull that Pursuit off to win. All in all though, i still think Sucker Punch and Pursuit would be nice buffs to the two headed dragon despite the accuracy issues, what do all of you think?
    Explorer likes this.
  21. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    On a similar note to the above...

    What if Crawdaunt learned Sucker Punch?

    [​IMG]

    Crawduant has a fantastic ability in Adaptability, but I've never Crawduant too useful because its a bit very slow and not very bulky. Cue the inclusion of Sucker Punch!

    A Sucker Punch coming off of a Crawdaunt would put even Absol (and Zweilous) to shame, outright destroying anything that comes in its way. Thanks to Adaptability, Crawduant now gets a 160 Base Power priority move coming off of 120 attack potentially boosted by a Life Orb. That sounds pretty scary already, and let me tell you, it can hit like an absolute truck. It cleanly OHKOs Omastar after a Shell Smash, all offensive Grass-types in the tier, and most other offensive Pokemon that don't resist it. Even Kabutops, who has a decent physical bulk without investment, will very rarely survive a Sucker Punch after Stealth Rock damage.

    Random comparison calc to show this thing is freaking strong (open)


    252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Lilligant: 106.41% - 125.98% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 Atk Life Orb Absol (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Lilligant: 84.7% - 100% (6.25% chance to OHKO)


    Yeah. This makes Crawdaunt a huge threat to offensive teams in general while completely ignoring Crawdaunt's previous issue of being slow. It also hits hard regardless even if it isn't using Sucker Punch, as a STAB Waterfall (which actually does quite a bit to Escavalier, doing a minimum of 70% to it), access to Superpower, and Crunch (which does the same amount of damage as Sucker Punch) is going to take care of most of the slower stuff. Although Crawdaunt isn't fast at all, it can still outspeed most walls and hit them hard enough, except for really bulky stuff like Tangrowth, who it unfortunately will still pretty much always lose to. But for offensive teams, Crawdaunt is even scarier than Absol to face and its Water-typing may allow it to take a weaker resisted hit (like a random Water/Ice attack) that Absol may not be able to take, and I think it would have quite an impact in this regard.

    As a side note, Crawduant also gets access to Swords Dance. If you have the balls to set it up, you can do stuff like OHKO uninvested Emboar (100% of the time) and Durant (68.75% of the time) after Stealth Rock with Sucker Punch alone after the boost. All I have to say about that is lol

    Thoughts?

    EDIT: This has already been posted? Oh well w/e
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013
  22. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest Screw Water Druddigon
    is a Contributor to Smogon
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    The Crawdaunt theorymon was already brought up before, here's my thoughts on it.

    What if Crawdaunt got Sucker Punch?

    This would be pretty cool, and I'm sure Crawdaunt would be a very effective sweeper without the need of Dragon Dance, and can instead use Swords Dance for more power than Dragon Dance, and priority Sucker Punch to snipe the opposition would be deadly; it can handily sweep with a very powerful Sucker Punch, while it has Waterfall and Superpower to hit slower mons hard with. Crawdaunt would be pretty frightening even without Swords Dance, as Swamp has shown, and could be a good revenge killer for teams that need to remove some fast mon that may put a stop to their plans. Crawdaunt would go up big time in viability and would be higher in RU, maybe even rise up although UU's meta would still be too hostile to it. (also CB wouldn't be that effective because CB+Sucker Punch is a pretty shaky idea)

    What if Zweilous got Sucker Punch/Pursuit?

    Zweilous would make a very good Psychic/Ghost killer with these moves. Zweilous has Hustle, so along with a pretty decent 85 Attack, Zweilous can hit pretty hard and kill things like Slowking, Uxie, Mesprit, etc. Zweilous's typing comes in handy as well, so Zweilous can take whatever they have to offer (beware Ice Beam from Mesprit though), and take them down by either trapping them or hitting them before they can react, so it can put such Pokemon in a bad position. Zweilous could be a pretty good trapper with these moves in hand.

    as for a theorymon of my own...

    What if Uxie got Recover?

    While Uxie has very solid defenses, its lack of reliable recovery is a pretty big letdown. It can take repeated hits from a lot of prominent mons, and Recover seems fitting so Uxie can also heal itself to repeatedly keep itself healthy to repeatedly do this. Uxie may have a case of 4MSS, but this would be pretty interesting imo. Thoughts?
  23. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner
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    [​IMG]

    What if Venusaur was RU?


    Venusaur was probably THE best Pokemon back in DPP UU, and lets be honest here, DPP UU does share some similarities to BW RU in terms of what's good, and many of the Pokemon available in both tiers. However, given that BW RU has some pretty big changes in comparison to DPP (such as the fact Escavalier and Durant are so good, Lilligant exists, etc), how would this old DPP UU behemoth do in RU? Would the existence of stuff such as Escavalier, Scald, and Amoonguss severely hamper Venusaur's ability to function, or would it still be that incredibly dangerous, versatile threat it was in DPP UU?
  24. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold PLUTO
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    Quiver Dance Galvantula should be one of the biggest threats on the RU metagame, priority like Extreme Entei or just a faster scarfer such Cinccino should be almost necessary on every team. This thing have some checks or just with ofense pressure can deal v.well against him but lacks to a solid counter, so some more balance or stall teams should be weak to this Galvantula, good SpA + super fast with Thunder, Bug Buzz and Giga Drain.

    Sucker Punch Crawdaunt really should to help a lot to Crawdaunt against offensive team which are the problem for Crawdaunt since very frail + slow; the set should be: Sword Dance / Waterfall / Sucker Punch / Superpower.

    Venusaur in RU i'm sure that him should be one of the best mons in RU so far because very versatil + good stats overall so have a lot of options: SubLeech, SD, Scarfer, Sunny day, Special sweeper, mixed..
    Similar to Amoonguss but with much better offensive presence (a lot of options and faster).
  25. Explorer

    Explorer

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    What if Zwelious had Sucker Punch?

    This would play excellently with Hustle, effectively giving Zwelious a 180-BP attack with priority, and even higher if the item plays a role. Since Zwelious is NFE, it would become a very underrated revenge-killer, giving Druddigon some serious competition in the physical Dragon department. Of course, it would require a bit of prediction, especially against Pokemon such as Sub-Shift Gear Klinklang (if Klinklang is healthy enough to make another Substitute, it can play mind games with Zwelious) and other similar Pokemon. At the same time, Hustle cuts Sucker Punch's accuracy to 80%, making it much less reliable than I'm used to dealing with.

    What if Crawdaunt had Sucker Punch?

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    This would be a great fourth move on the DD set where Superpower isn't needed (i.e. where Crawdaunt is helping a double-fighting core break down a team). You could use Sucker Punch in addition to Crunch for more versatility, letting Crawdaunt pick off Manectric and Galvantula, which are usually excellent checks to Crawdaunt, but not any more. On top of that, Waterfall, Crunch, and Sucker Punch all receive an Adaptability boost, pumping up their power output considerably, on top of the usual Life Orb boost. You have three 208-BP moves, one of which has a 20% flinch rate, one of which has a 20% defense drop, and one of which has priority. Overall Crawdaunt would be much more threatening as its list of checks sharply decreases.

    What if Venusaur was RU?

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Thank goodness Vulpix isn't around RU these days. With sun, Venusaur becomes an overwhelming sweeper, with Sleep Powder, Growth, and good coverage moves from both sides, letting Venusaur be an excellent mixed sweeper (something Lilligant cannot do). Earthquake, Power Whip, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, and Hidden Power Fire/Ice let Venusaur hit a large part of the metagame hard, especially after a Growth boost.

    Venusaur can also be an excellent partner to Lilligant on a sun team, as it can use Hidden Power Fighting to get past Steel-types (Ferroseed/Aggron/other) and Bouffalant (a Lilligant counter) so a HP Rock Lilligant can sweep. Lilligant also has Chlorophyll to take advantage of the sun and start firing off Solarbeams freely, stopping for a HP Rock when a Fire-type comes in.

    Outside of sun Venusaur can also be used as a tank or a decent SubSeeder, while absorbing Toxic Spikes upon switch-in, but its fairly low physical defense can be a letdown if it tries to tank moves such as Sandslash's Earthquake or Druddigon's Dragon Claw. Still, I think most people would use it on sun teams because that is where its true power lies.

    And yes Cryogonal gets Solarbeam.

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