Salamence (BW2 Revamp) (GP 2/2)

FatMence needs to be slower and fatter to be honest.

I'm not too sure how often Luke's are running Ice Punch, but the ones that don't will never beat a Fatmence anyway. I personally think you can go as low as Jolly Breloom. You just need to outspeed that to FireBlast. The main draw of Fatmence now is pure bulk and phasing. I've actually run Dragon Tail / Fire blast / Roar / Roost on a stall team with great success.

Fatmence wants Fire Blast more than Flamethrower as well in my opinion. It 2HKOs all varients of Skarmory and does more to Ferro and Breloom.
 

PK Gaming

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Alright, so we're getting this done

Dragon Dance:

-Roost should be moved to AC. It's hard to find time to Roost when using DD mence (gotta make every one of those turns count) and its always been more of an niche move, so down it to AC it goes.

Classic Mixmence:

-Remove it entirely. We came to the conclusion that classic Mixed Mence just isn't a very good set in BW2. On the offensive side, its completely outclassed by Hydreigon, so the only reason you want to use it over Hydreigon would be for its typing / ability. It's pretty unimpressive as a wallbreaker; The set can't even break through a healthy Blissey (and its never getting passed Chansey) and needs a significant investment in attack to ohko tyranitar. Bottom line, Brick Break is a terrible move, and when you have to rely on that move to wallbreak, you're predestined to fail at some point.

New Mixmence:

-Go back to using 64 atk / 192 spa / 252 spread
You miss the 2HKO on Blissey, but chances are your opponent isn't going to switch into Salamence with Blissey in the first place, and if they DO know that its mixed, then they'll most likely will pivot switch into something else to avoid getting 2 shotted. That said, the EVs still guarantee that you 2HKO every variant of Hippowdown (a more relevant target) and the speed guarantees that you tie against Volcorona, unboosted Salamence and some rare base max speed 100s that might pop up like Mew, Celebi and the like.
TL;DR: Insurance is good

Fatmence:

-Removed. Let's be honest here, Fatmence was always kind of a novelty set. If you disregard the fact using Fatmence is a huge, huge opportunity cost for the player, Fatmence itself isn't checking many of BW2s physical attackers save Breloom. It MIGHT come back, but for now just assume qc is intent on removing it.

Do all of that and we'll approve
 
Anyone think Donphan should be an added check? It has Ice Shard, and can actually tank hits from Salamence if it isn't packing special moves.
 
Yah, Donphan is a pretty good check. What about adding a set similar to the Rayquaza Ubers set? Dragon Dance / Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Outrage or Dragon Claw is a really effective set in Ubers, and maybe adding DD to the new Mixmence set in a slash or AC could reflect this? Or maybe a different set altogether..
 

shrang

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You still haven't added DD to the AC of the New MixMence set, LucaroarkZ. Please do that whenever you can. When you make this change + PK Gaming's changes, I'll approve too.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Yeah, Donphan with Ice Shard is a good check... To physical variants. If I recall correctly, Donphan's Ice Shard does not OHKO Salamence, so it's probably not beating MixMence anytime soon. Personally I'm not opposed to removing FatMence, because it's really never been that set that made me go "man, I just wanna use that!"

Anyway, sorry for the hold-up, PK Gaming's and shrang's changes are now made. Also, should I just change New MixMence's set name to MixMence? I mean, it's kind of the only MixMence set now.

EDIT @ Hemp Man: I was doing that while making the changes, lol
 

Pocket

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~ Yes rename the mixed set to Mixmence

~ Also add an AC mention of DD on Mixmence like shrang suggested

~ OO mention Fatmence

Otherwise, awesome!

QC Approved (1/3)
 
Yeah, Donphan with Ice Shard is a good check... To physical variants. If I recall correctly, Donphan's Ice Shard does not OHKO Salamence, so it's probably not beating MixMence anytime soon. Personally I'm not opposed to removing FatMence, because it's really never been that set that made me go "man, I just wanna use that!"

Anyway, sorry for the hold-up, PK Gaming's and shrang's changes are now made. Also, should I just change New MixMence's set name to MixMence? I mean, it's kind of the only MixMence set now.

EDIT @ Hemp Man: I was doing that while making the changes, lol
Ice Shard doesn't OHKO, but Donphan can take a +1 Outrage. That being said, I do agree with you that Donphan shouldn't be fighting mixed sets.
 
The semicolons in this article aren't used right most of the time. Since it is like a comma, it shouldn't be followed capital letter. Semicolons probably shouldn't be followed by "additionally" since a semicolon is a replacement for "and." I'd use a period any time this occurs rather than a semicolon. Some of them should probably also be replaced by a hyphen or a comma (The first sentence, for example, should be a hyphen I'm pretty sure)

I'd recommend looking over the Semicolons to try to fix these issues - that would probably help the GP team.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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I suck at replying to my own threads in a timely manner. (I have AP Calculus, ok?)

Anyway, I'll get around to fixing the capitalization after semicolons (I actually wasn't 100% sure of that). As for using words such as "additionally" after them, I'll wait for input from the GP team before changing that because I think it would be better if they weighed in on that.
 

Gimmick

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[amateur]

The semicolons in this article aren't used right most of the time. Since it is like a comma, it shouldn't be followed capital letter. Semicolons probably shouldn't be followed by "additionally" since a semicolon is a replacement for "and." I'd use a period any time this occurs rather than a semicolon. Some of them should probably also be replaced by a hyphen or a comma (The first sentence, for example, should be a hyphen I'm pretty sure)

I'd recommend looking over the Semicolons to try to fix these issues - that would probably help the GP team.
Semicolons can be used to link two independent clauses with a conjunctive adverb. Words like however, moreover, consequently, and so on are actually commonly seen after semicolons--mainly because their usage exists to reduce excessive amounts of singular independent clauses that have similar content.

It does seem like the semicolon is your favorite form of punctuation, though; they seem a bit too abundant. Some of these ideas would flow more easily with a period rather than a semicolon.

Paragraph 1 said:
It faces a lot of competition from Dragonite, who is much bulkier thanks to its stats and Multiscale.
This has incorrect parallel structure. Change to "and access to Multiscale" and you're good.

Paragraph 2 said:
No; in fact, quite the contrary.
It's missing a predicate! If you add "it's" before "quite," it becomes a complete sentence.

Paragraph 3 said:
This set should never be used without Moxie, as Intimidate is simply much less useful. Rock Slide is useful for OHKOing Volcarona, but is otherwise not very useful except for revenge killing weakened Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T.
The usage of "useful" here is a bit excessive. Try replacing it with synonyms to avoid repetition. Advantageous, beneficial, effective, etc.
 
By the way, Rock Slide also does 65.5 - 77.1% to SubDD Gyarados. So Scarf Mence can also revenge kill that if its weakened enough.
 

Nix_Hex

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[Overview]

<p>Enter Salamence; t. This is a Pokemon that was deemed too powerful for DPP OU, which explains just how good it is. That doesn't explain everything about Salamence's power, though; i. In Black and White, the Dream World gods decided for whatever reason that this already powerful Pokemon needed to be even more powerful, so they gave it Moxie. Thanks to this ability, Salamence will progressively become more difficult to wall. So, are you thinking you can just make it face a physical wall and expect all of your problems against Salamence to go away? Well, no, that's not how it works;. Salamence has great mixed attacking stats, so you should probably think twice before switching that physical wall in. Okay, so, what does Salamence struggle with then? Answering that question is simple. It faces a lot of competition from Dragonite, who is much bulkier thanks to its stats and Multiscale. Additionally, the once unrivaled MixMence now has to compete with the newcomer Hydreigon, who boasts a higher Special Attack stat and access to Superpower. Salamence is also easily revenge killed by Mamoswine and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus and Keldeo. Rest assured, however,; Salamence is guaranteed to be a formidable opponent on the battlefield.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Aqua Tail
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Moxie
nature: Naive / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Alright, I know, you think I'm wasting all of Salamence's great potential with a Choice Scarf set. No; iIn fact, quite the contrary. By utilizing Choice Scarf in tandem with Moxie, Salamence becomes both a great revenge killer and a deadly late-game sweeper. In short, if your opponent doesn't prepare for Choice Scarf Salamence at all, theyou will lose. Outrage already hits hard, but add on some Moxie boosts and you've got a real hard-hitter. However, going for Outrage early game is about as smart as intentionally sticking your hand in boiling water. To get around that problem, this set also uses Dragon Claw for those times when Salamence shouldn't be locking itself into Outrage. Earthquake provides Salamence with coverage against Heatran and Jirachi; additionally, Earthquake hits Tyranitar hard without resorting to Outrage. In the last slot, Fire Blast is used to prevent Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn from having a field day. However, should you be running Salamence on a Rain team, it is better if you run Aqua Tail instead in order to hit Pokemon such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Volcarona.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>This set should never be used without Moxie, as Intimidate is simply much less useful. Rock Slide is useful for OHKOing Volcarona, but is otherwise not very useful except for revenge killing weakened Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. If Salamence is using Aqua Tail over Fire Blast, it should run a Jolly Nature, and the four Special Attack EVs should be moved to Special Defense. Since Salamence may be switching in and out a lot, which means taking 25% from Stealth Rock, it is a good idea to run Rapid Spin users such as Starmie and Forretress alongside it. Additionally, Spikes support from Deoxys-D or the aforementioned Forretress can help it get the OHKOes it needs in order to prepare a sweep. Support from Magnezone and/or other Dragon-types is also helpful in order to weaken or eliminate Steel-types before Salamence goes for a late-game sweep.</p>

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Hydro Pump
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Now, feast your eyes on one of the best Dragon Dance users in BW2 OU. With Dragon Dance, Moxie, and Outrage now legal on the same set, this already powerful set is now so powerful it's ridiculous. +1 Outrage at +1 already hits everything that isn't a Steel-type hard, so how about a +2 Outrage, or even a +3 Outrage? Despite the sheer power behind Outrage, Dragon Claw is always a viable alternative in order to avoid being locked into your STAB move against a Steel-type. For covering said Steel-types, Earthquake is used for hitting Heatran and Jirachi, while Fire Blast is used in order to hit Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn. However, if Salamence is being used on a Rain team, Hydro Pump is an option to OHKO Gliscor after Stealth Rock; additionally, Hydro Pump still hits Skarmory and Forretress on their weak Special Defense.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Unlike Choice Scarf Salamence, both abilities have their uses on this set. Intimidate brings Salamence more set-up opportunities, at the cost of the Moxie snowball effect. However, Moxie will bring more potential power than any set that uses Intimidate. As for the item choice, Lum Berry is generally more useful as it allows Salamence to temporarily dodge status or get out of Outrage confusion for free. However, if using Dragon Claw over Outrage, it's probably best to use Life Orb as this increases damage output. When it comes to other item choices, the two that stand out the most are Dragon Gem and Yache Berry. Dragon Gem brings some extra power to its STAB, which may help kick-start the Moxie snowball effect. On the other hand, Yache Berry is an interesting item option which allows it to avoid getting OHKOed by Mamoswine's Ice Shard.</p>

<p>Dragon Dance Salamence has a couple more move options not yet mentioned. Aqua Tail is not as good on this set as it is on the Choice Scarf set, although it does have a notable advantage over Hydro Pump: Aqua Tail's power is boosted by Dragon Dance and Moxie boosts, while Hydro Pump's power is not. Roost is another option that allows Salamence to recover from Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage, although Salamence gets very few opportunities to successfully use Roost.</p>

<p>Mamoswine is perhaps the greatest threat to this set as it can easily revenge kill Salamence with Ice Shard, regardless of how many boosts it has. Therefore, Salamence should have teammates that can beat it; Pokemon that can do so include Scizor, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. Additionally, Salamence greatly enjoys Rapid Spin support from Pokemon such as Starmie and Forretress because of its Stealth Rock weakness.</p>

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Choice Scarf and Dragon Dance variants of Salamence both have something in common, despite being completely different sets. They both hate facing Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Slowbro. So, the infamouslegendary MixMence returns, ready to take such physical walls and eat them for breakfast. By using Draco Meteor, both of the aforementioned physical walls who did so well against other variants of Salamence can no longer switch in on it. While (this sentence is really bad and it just sounds like you're talking to yourself. use this
instead)
Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn can switch in on thesemay think they are safe switching into Draco Meteors, they're totally, but they are definitely not going to switch in onto Fire Blast thanks to their weaknesses to it, yeah, that makes complete sense. To finish it off, Earthquake is used to hit Heatran and Jirachi; other options such as Brick Break just aren't that useful.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread ensuures every variant of Hippowdon is 2HKOed by this set, with maximum Speed to ensure a Speed tie with Volcarona, opposing Salamence, and other base 100s such as Celebi and Mew. Intimidate is a useful ability to help Salamence switch in on physical attacks, although Moxie powers up Outrage, which can be valuable. Dragon Dance can be used over Fire Blast or Earthquake in order to trick Pokemon such as Slowbro into thinking you're not a Mixed set, and potentially sweeping late-game.</p>

<p>So, what should MixMence's teammates be? Well, you'll need Rapid Spin support because of that Stealth Rock weakness, so Starmie and Forretress are great partners. Additionally, sweepers who want walls like Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Jellicent weakened or removed appreciate MixMence's help tremendously. Sweepers that benefit from the weakening or removal of these walls include Agility Metagross, Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, and Double Dance Terrakion.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Before considering any other Salamence set, you really need to ask yourself why you want to use it. The first thing that comes to mind is a Choice Specs set, but you really have no reason to use Choice Specs Salamence over Hydreigon or Latios, both of whom sport higher Special Attack. You could also pull off a Mixed Dragon Dance set similar to what it used in DPP Ubers, although the loss of Attack for Outrage is very noticeable; additionally, being walled by Heatran or Skarmory depending on your move choice is not very appealing. Thanks to Intimidate, Salamence seems like it could pull off a Bulky Dragon Dance set. This set is okay, but there's a Pokemon called Dragonite who has an ability called Multiscale that makes it more bulky and overall a better option. You could also run a Substitute set, which can abuse Moxie effectively and ease prediction against Steel-types. However, be aware that using Substitute in conjunction with Life Orb is counterproductive. Salamence can also run a bulky support-oriented set, but why would you use that over Dragonite?</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If you're actually looking for a foolproof counter to Salamence, forget about it. There are none. However, some Pokemon can come close. Porygon2 is the closest you can get to a true counter thanks to its massive bulk with Eviolite, but with Stealth Rock and some prior damage (a common reality considering Porygon2 has no Leftovers), it will be 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage if Salamence usPorygon2 Traces Moxie. However, if Salamence usit Traces Intimidate, Porygon2 will always beat it. Hippowdon, Slowbro, Donphan, and Cloyster can all switch in on physical variants of Salamence, but they will lose to MixMence. Quagsire and Cresselia can take on physical variants of Salamence, but both have trouble against MixMence; in Quagsire's case, Salamence can actually take advantage of it as Unaware ignores the Special Attack drops tofrom Draco Meteor. In Cresselia's case, Salamence will do a lot of damage with a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage. Skarmory and Bronzong can both switch in easily if they are on Rain teams, though it should be noted that Salamence may be found on weather teams itself. Additionally, physical variants of Salamence do not like facing Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate.</p>

<p>While countering Salamence is pretty much impossible, checking it is actually very easy. Choice Scarf users with greater than 100 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, Keldeo, and Garchomp, all threaten Salamence immensely, and Choice Scarf users in this speed tier are very common. Mamoswine can also revenge kill it thanks to priority Ice Shard, even in the unlikely event thatno matter how many Speed boosts Salamence boosts its Speed to +6gets. Scizor can switch in and 2HKO Salamence with Bullet Punch while it's locked into Outrage. Similarly, Choice Band Dragonite 2HKOes with ExtremeSpeed, although Salamence needs to be heavily weakened if you're going to attempt to revenge kill it with Choice Band Dragonite. It should be noted that all of these revenge killers will have a hard time switching in, as they are all hit hard or OHKOed by the appropriate move.</p>
Okay, this was pretty good and I can tell that you put your heart and soul into it (that's a good thing), but I have some criticisms for you. Don't be offended, I'm just trying to help you develop better writing habits for later in life.

  • Don't go overboard on punctuation. Semicolons are rad, but there is no reason to insert them in every other sentence. A statement like 'Enter Salamence' has much more power with just a period.
  • I actually added a semicolon to the last sentence in the Overview. Commas are flat out wrong if you are separating two separate clauses. That's what periods and semi-colons are for. If you use commas in that way in your school papers, essays, and resumes, you won't be taken seriously.
  • This analysis isn't you talking with your friends or yourself. The sentence that I completely deleted made me cringe, mainly because it seems like something I'd write in ninth grade. Analyses don't have to be scholarly by any means (look at Jabba's Terrakion analysis, for instance), but avoid sentences like that. You will be glad that sentence is gone when you look at this analysis a few years from now.
Again, I'm not trying to shoot you down, just trying to build you up. You're writing is great otherwise so you're on the right track. Excellent analysis.
[gp]1/2[/gp]
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Thanks for the check NixHex! (and the advice, I already think that sentence looks better lol)

I also put some of Gimmick's suggestions in.
 
Alright, so we're getting this done


Classic Mixmence:

-Remove it entirely. We came to the conclusion that classic Mixed Mence just isn't a very good set in BW2. On the offensive side, its completely outclassed by Hydreigon, so the only reason you want to use it over Hydreigon would be for its typing / ability. It's pretty unimpressive as a wallbreaker; The set can't even break through a healty Blissey (and its never getting passed Chansey) and needs a significant investment in attack to ohko tyranitar. Bottom line, Brick Break is a terrible move, and when you have to rely on that move to wallbreak, you're predestined to fail at some point.

Fatmence:

-Removed. Let's be honest here, Fatmence was always kind of a novelty set. If you disregard the fact using Fatmence is a huge, huge opportunity cost for the player, Fatmence itself isn't checking many of BW2s physical attackers save Breloom. It MIGHT come back, but for now just assume qc is intent on removing it.

Do all of that and we'll approve
I STRONGLY disagree with both of these. I've used both to good success in BW2 OU.

Classic Mixmence will always be usable. Anything with Intimidate, decent defenses, ROOST, and a Draco Meteor Nuke will always be good. It is a counter to every fighting mon in OU, and doesn't sacrifice offense prowess. Sure, it isn't the pure wall-breaker that Hydra is, but it actually has some defensive abilities where Hydra fricking sucks in that regard. Plus, Brick Break isn't horrible because it can break the odd screen. I highlighted EXACTLY why you said you would use it both on your argument and mine. Hydra just sucks type-wise.

Removing Fatmence is unjustified as well. We can debate about typing, but Fatmence's use are a few things:

1) Intimidate. Yes it is THAT good for semi-stall teams.
2) Wish. There are 5 viable Wishers in OU, and guess what.. Fatmence is one of them! You have Jirachi, Vaporeon, Blobs, and Latias. The Blobs suck in an offensive Metagame, Vaporeon isn't that good without Rain. Latias can't even be discussed because the Wish set is Pursuit bait even with Reflect. That leaves you with Fatmence and Jirachi. Why would you use Wish with Salamence? Look at the typing combos. Salamence covers Ferrothorn and Forretress' asses so you can lay Hazards all day. Have you ever tried pairing Ferrothorn with Salamence?!?! Try it and tell me if that isn't worthy of analysis consideration...

To be honest, I think Choice Band and Bulky DD are still both usable. Choice Band works for triple dragon teams, which are highly viable. Jolly Choice Band Salamence is put in a decen't speed tier and allows you to pair it with a Choice Scarf Garchomp. Jolly Choice Band Salamence outspeeds a few things (Ninetales - OHKO, Gliscor, and Jolly Breloom OHKO) that Adamant Dragonite cannot.

Bulky Dragon Dance isn't the best set in the Metagame but it is questionable if Dragonite is 100% better in all scenarios. Salamence boasts a higher speed tier and Intimidate doesn't care if SR is on the field or not. Being a built in Lucario check is always handy as Luke is on the rise again (something Dragonite cannot ever boast).
 

GatoDelFuego

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REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

[Overview]

<p>Enter Salamence. This is a Pokemon that was deemed too powerful for DPP OU, which explains just how good it is. That doesn't explain everything about Salamence's power, though. In Black and White, the Dream World gods decided for whatever reason that this already powerful Pokemon needed even more muscle to be even more powerful, so they gave it Moxie. Thanks to this ability, Salamence will progressively become more difficult to wall. So, are you thinking you can just send out make it face a physical wall and expect all of your Salamence problems against to go away? Well, no, that's not how it works. Salamence has great mixed attacking stats, so you should probably think twice before switching that physical wall in. Okay, so, what does Salamence struggle with then? Answering that question is simple. It faces a lot of competition from Dragonite, who is much bulkier thanks to its stats and access to Multiscale. Additionally, the once unrivaled MixMence now has to compete with the newcomer Hydreigon, who boasts a higher Special Attack stat and access to Superpower. Salamence is also easily revenge killed by Mamoswine and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus and Keldeo. Rest assured, however; Salamence is guaranteed to be a formidable opponent on the battlefield.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Aqua Tail
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Moxie
nature: Naive / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Alright, I know, you think I'm wasting all of Salamence's great potential with a Choice Scarf set. In fact, it's quite the contrary. By utilizing Choice Scarf in tandem with Moxie, Salamence becomes both a great revenge killer and a deadly late-game sweeper. In short, if your opponent doesn't prepare for Choice Scarf Salamence at all, they will lose. Outrage already hits hard, but add on some Moxie boosts and you've got a real powerhouse hard-hitter. However, going for Outrage early-game is about as smart as intentionally sticking your hand in boiling water. To get around that problem, this set also uses Dragon Claw for those times when Salamence shouldn't be locking itself into Outrage. Earthquake provides Salamence with coverage against Heatran and Jirachi; additionally, Earthquake hits Tyranitar hard without resorting to Outrage. In the last slot, Fire Blast is used to prevent Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn from having a field day. However, should you be running Salamence on a Rain team, it is better if you to run Aqua Tail instead in order to hit Pokemon such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Volcarona.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>This set should never be used without Moxie, as Intimidate is simply much less beneficial. Rock Slide is useful for OHKOing Volcarona, but otherwise doesn't do much else except for revenge killing weakened Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. If Salamence is using Aqua Tail over Fire Blast, it should run a Jolly Nature, and the four Special Attack EVs should be moved to Special Defense. Since As Salamence may be switching in and out a lot, which means taking 25% from Stealth Rock, it is a good idea to run Rapid Spin users such as Starmie and Forretress alongside it. Additionally, Spikes support from Deoxys-D or Forretress can help it Salamence get the OHKOs it needs in order to prepare a sweep. Support from Magnezone and/or other Dragon-types is also helpful in order to weaken or eliminate Steel-types before Salamence goes for a late-game sweep.</p>

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Fire Blast / Hydro Pump
item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
ABILITY?
nature: Naive
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Now, Feast your eyes on one of the best Dragon Dance users in BW2 OU. With Dragon Dance, Moxie, and Outrage now legal on the same set, this already powerful set is now so powerful it's ridiculous. Outrage at +1 already hits everything that isn't a Steel-type hard, so how about a +2 Outrage, or even a +3 Outrage? Despite the sheer power behind Outrage, Dragon Claw is always a viable alternative in order to avoid being locked into your STAB move against a Steel-type. For covering said Steel-types, Earthquake is used for hitting Heatran and Jirachi, while Fire Blast is used in order to hit Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn. However, if Salamence is being used on a Rain team, Hydro Pump is an option to OHKO Gliscor after Stealth Rock; additionally, Hydro Pump still hits Skarmory and Forretress on their weak Special Defense.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Unlike Choice Scarf Salamence, both abilities have their uses on this set. Intimidate brings Salamence more setup opportunities, at the cost of but loses out on the powerful Moxie snowball effect. However, Moxie will bring more potential power than any set that uses Intimidate. As for the item choice, Lum Berry is generally more useful as it allows Salamence to temporarily dodge status or get out of Outrage confusion for free. However, if using Dragon Claw over Outrage, it's probably best to use Life Orb as this increases damage output. When it comes to other items choices, the two that stand out the most are Dragon Gem and Yache Berry. Dragon Gem brings some extra power to its STAB, which may help kick-start the Moxie snowball effect. On the other hand, Yache Berry is an interesting item option which allows it Salamence to avoid getting OHKOed by Mamoswine's Ice Shard.</p>

<p>Dragon Dance Salamence has a couple more move options not yet mentioned. Aqua Tail is not as good on this set as it is on the Choice Scarf set, although it does have a notable advantage over Hydro Pump: Aqua Tail's power is boosted by Dragon Dance and Moxie boosts, while Hydro Pump's power is not. Roost is another option that allows Salamence to recover from Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage, although Salamence gets very few opportunities to successfully use Roost.</p>

<p>Mamoswine is perhaps the greatest threat to this set as it can easily revenge kill Salamence with Ice Shard, regardless of how many boosts it has. Therefore, Salamence should have teammates that can beat it; Pokemon that can do so include Scizor, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. Additionally, Salamence greatly enjoys Rapid Spin support from Pokemon such as Starmie and Forretress because of its Stealth Rock weakness.</p>

[SET]
name: MixMence
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Fire Blast
move 4: Earthquake
item: Life Orb
nature: Naive
evs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Choice Scarf and Dragon Dance variants of Salamence both have something in common, despite being completely different sets&mdash;they both hate facing Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Slowbro. So, the legendary MixMence returns, ready to take such physical walls and eat them for breakfast. By using Draco Meteor, physical walls who that did so well against other variants of Salamence can no longer switch in on it. While Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn may think they are safe switching into Draco Meteors, they are definitely not going to switch in to Fire Blast thanks to their weaknesses to it. To finish it off, Earthquake is used to hit Heatran and Jirachi; other options such as Brick Break just aren't that useful.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread ensures every variant of Hippowdon is 2HKOed by this set, with maximum Speed to ensure a Speed tie with Volcarona, opposing Salamence, and other base 100s such as Celebi and Mew. Intimidate is a useful ability to help Salamence switch in on physical attacks, although Moxie powers up Outrage, which can be valuable. Dragon Dance can be used over Fire Blast or Earthquake in order to trick Pokemon such as Slowbro into thinking you're not a Mixed set, and potentially sweeping late-game.</p>

<p>So, what should MixMence's teammates be? Well, you'll need Rapid Spin support because of that Stealth Rock weakness, so Starmie and Forretress are great partners. Additionally, sweepers who want walls like Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Jellicent weakened or removed appreciate MixMence's help tremendously. Sweepers that benefit from the weakening or removal of these walls include Agility Metagross, Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, and Double Dance Terrakion.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Before considering any other Salamence set, you really need to ask yourself why you want to use it. The first thing that comes to mind is a Choice Specs set, but you really have no reason to use Choice Specs Salamence over Hydreigon or Latios, both of whom sport higher Special Attack. You could also pull off a Mixed Dragon Dance set similar to what it used in DPP Ubers, although the loss of Attack for Outrage is very noticeable; additionally, being walled by Heatran or Skarmory depending on your move choice is not very appealing. Thanks to Intimidate, Salamence seems like it could pull off a Bulky Dragon Dance set. This set is okay, but there's a Pokemon called Dragonite who has an ability called Multiscale that makes it more bulky and overall a better option. You could also run a Substitute set, which can abuse Moxie effectively and ease prediction against Steel-types. However, be aware that using Substitute in conjunction with Life Orb is counterproductive. Salamence can also run a bulky support set, but why would you use that over Dragonite?</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>If you're actually looking for a foolproof counter to Salamence, forget about it. There are none. However, some Pokemon can come close. Porygon2 is the closest you can get to a true counter thanks to its massive bulk with Eviolite, but with Stealth Rock and some prior damage (a common reality considering Porygon2 has no Leftovers), it will be 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage if Porygon2 Traces Moxie. However, if it Traces Intimidate, Porygon2 will always beat it. Hippowdon, Slowbro, Donphan, and Cloyster can all switch in on physical variants of Salamence, but they will lose to MixMence. Quagsire and Cresselia can take on physical variants of Salamence, but both have trouble against MixMence; in Quagsire's case, Salamence can actually take advantage of it as Unaware ignores the Special Attack drops from Draco Meteor. In Cresselia's case, Salamence will do a lot of damage with a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage. Skarmory and Bronzong can both switch in easily if they are on Rain teams, though it should be noted that Salamence may be found on weather teams itself. Additionally, physical variants of Salamence do not like facing Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate.</p>

<p>While countering Salamence is pretty much impossible, checking it is actually very easy. Choice Scarf users with greater than 100 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, Keldeo, and Garchomp, all threaten Salamence immensely, and Choice Scarf users in this speed tier are very common. Mamoswine can also revenge kill it thanks to priority Ice Shard, no matter how many Speed boosts Salamence gets. Scizor can switch in and 2HKO Salamence with Bullet Punch while it's locked into Outrage. Similarly, Choice Band Dragonite 2HKOes with ExtremeSpeed, although Salamence needs to be heavily weakened if you're going to attempt to revenge kill it with Choice Band Dragonite. It should be noted that all of these revenge killers will have a hard time switching in, as they are all hit hard or OHKOed by the appropriate move.</p>


[gp]2/2[/gp]
 

PK Gaming

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I STRONGLY disagree with both of these. I've used both to good success in BW2 OU.

Classic Mixmence will always be usable. Anything with Intimidate, decent defenses, ROOST, and a Draco Meteor Nuke will always be good. It is a counter to every fighting mon in OU, and doesn't sacrifice offense prowess. Sure, it isn't the pure wall-breaker that Hydra is, but it actually has some defensive abilities where Hydra fricking sucks in that regard. Plus, Brick Break isn't horrible because it can break the odd screen. I highlighted EXACTLY why you said you would use it both on your argument and mine. Hydra just sucks type-wise.
I'll agree with you on the point that Salamence's typing let's it differentiate itself from Hydreigon, but that doesn't absolve it of some main issues, IE being a different flavoured mixed Hydreigon that is flat out inferior at wallbreaking. The onsite set comments imply that its a top notch wallbreaker, but it has trouble breaking through Chansey / Blissey, and it needs significant attack investment and SR in order to OHKO Tyranitar with Brick Break. Classic Mix Mence also suffers against Steel-types in the rain (an all too common team type) and doesn't even find the time to Roost in this metagame (at least in my experience). New MixedMence (referred to as MixMence henceforth) on the otherhand doesn't necessarily have trouble with. From our perspective, MixMence is superior at wallbreaking, has a similar moveset and a similar spread and can even opt to use the same moves as Classic MixMence. Keeping the Classic Mixmence as is redundant.

Removing Fatmence is unjustified as well. We can debate about typing, but Fatmence's use are a few things:

1) Intimidate. Yes it is THAT good for semi-stall teams.
2) Wish. There are 5 viable Wishers in OU, and guess what.. Fatmence is one of them! You have Jirachi, Vaporeon, Blobs, and Latias. The Blobs suck in an offensive Metagame, Vaporeon isn't that good without Rain. Latias can't even be discussed because the Wish set is Pursuit bait even with Reflect. That leaves you with Fatmence and Jirachi. Why would you use Wish with Salamence? Look at the typing combos. Salamence covers Ferrothorn and Forretress' asses so you can lay Hazards all day. Have you ever tried pairing Ferrothorn with Salamence?!?! Try it and tell me if that isn't worthy of analysis consideration...
I wasn't completely against this set, though the QC team as a whole eventually decided to remove it. Like I mentioned before, it's not 100% gone, and i'll talk to QC to see if I can work something out, but you'll just have to bear with us. That said, i'm still leaning towards because it was unimpressive when I used it, but i'll give it another chance.

To be honest, I think Choice Band and Bulky DD are still both usable. Choice Band works for triple dragon teams, which are highly viable. Jolly Choice Band Salamence is put in a decen't speed tier and allows you to pair it with a Choice Scarf Garchomp. Jolly Choice Band Salamence outspeeds a few things (Ninetales - OHKO, Gliscor, and Jolly Breloom OHKO) that Adamant Dragonite cannot.
There isn't much that much that Salamence brings to the table over other CB Dragons. Sure if you run Jolly you outspeed a few Pokemon (though adamant CB Dragonite already outspeeds the majority of Ninetales / Gliscor that exist in OU, and can beat all 3 of them if its running Jolly itself, and in that situation Salamence's ONLY advantage is a higher Attack stat .) I understand that it can be used of DragSpam team but... It's a pretty self-explanatory set that plays identically to other CB dragons with a situational speed advantage and worse coverage moves; basically a CB Dragon without its own unique perk. Does it really need an analysis?

Bulky Dragon Dance isn't the best set in the Metagame but it is questionable if Dragonite is 100% better in all scenarios. Salamence boasts a higher speed tier and Intimidate doesn't care if SR is on the field or not. Being a built in Lucario check is always handy as Luke is on the rise again (something Dragonite cannot ever boast).
Why should Salamence get a Bulky DD set when Dragonite doesn't even have a bulky Dragon Dance set anymore? I guess SubDD would technically fall under "bulky DD" but that set is much better done by Dragonite, who can roost up to max HP to abuse Multiscale while its Sub is up. Salamence's lone advantage over Dragonite is Intimidate, which I admit is somewhat useful for setting up against certain physical attackers like Breloom (not Lucario, who actually dropped in usage in November and is most definitely "not on the rise"), but like with CB you need to ask yourself the same question. Does it really need an analysis? It's literally a different flavoured Dragonite that is inferior on average.

---

LucaroarkZ can you please mention using Roost & Brick Break(ie the Classic MixMence set) in the AC of the mixed set. I'd also like you to remove "other options such as Brick Break just aren't that useful" since its an unnecessary jab directed towards the Classic MixMence set.
 

Adamant Zoroark

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Alright, implemented Gato's check (though I kept the last change as "similar to what it used in DPP Ubers" since it didn't make much sense to me otherwise), and made the changes requested by PK Gaming by adding a new AC paragraph with Roost and Brick Break.

I'm going to assume this is ready for upload unless a GP team member needs to look over the new paragraph.
 
I'll agree with you on the point that Salamence's typing let's it differentiate itself from Hydreigon, but that doesn't absolve it of some main issues, IE being a different flavoured mixed Hydreigon that is flat out inferior at wallbreaking. The onsite set comments imply that its a top notch wallbreaker, but it has trouble breaking through Chansey / Blissey, and it needs significant attack investment and SR in order to OHKO Tyranitar with Brick Break. Classic Mix Mence also suffers against Steel-types in the rain (an all too common team type) and doesn't even find the time to Roost in this metagame (at least in my experience). New MixedMence (referred to as MixMence henceforth) on the otherhand doesn't necessarily have trouble with. From our perspective, MixMence is superior at wallbreaking, has a similar moveset and a similar spread and can even opt to use the same moves as Classic MixMence. Keeping the Classic Mixmence as is redundant.



I wasn't completely against this set, though the QC team as a whole eventually decided to remove it. Like I mentioned before, it's not 100% gone, and i'll talk to QC to see if I can work something out, but you'll just have to bear with us. That said, i'm still leaning towards because it was unimpressive when I used it, but i'll give it another chance.


Why should Salamence get a Bulky DD set when Dragonite doesn't even have a bulky Dragon Dance set anymore? I guess SubDD would technically fall under "bulky DD" but that set is much better done by Dragonite, who can roost up to max HP to abuse Multiscale while its Sub is up. Salamence's lone advantage over Dragonite is Intimidate, which I admit is somewhat useful for setting up against certain physical attackers like Breloom (not Lucario, who actually dropped in usage in November and is most definitely "not on the rise"), but like with CB you need to ask yourself the same question. Does it really need an analysis? It's literally a different flavoured Dragonite that is inferior on average.

---
Well, I guess the issue is the logic by which we are determining sets. The fact that Salamence is a viable user of Roost / Draco Meteor just is a nice niche. We can't just say "oh, this set sucks because Rain exists," when it could be used just fine on rain with the addition of Hydro Pump / Aqua Tail.

For Fatmence... the fact that it is Wish support is unique enough to warrant a set. That isn't really even debatable. Many stall users use things like Gyarados and Salamence for Intimidate and Salamence is a very capable Wish user.

The absense of Bulky DD sets across the board is foolish to me. I thought analysis were used for reference? Have fun being swept by one because people are unprepared that it exists. Sifting through the recent analyses I'm seeing more and more viable sets and play tactics being dismissed by QC because they don't fit a typical mold. Shame...
 

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