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Salamence (BW2 Revamp) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Adamant Zoroark, Oct 28, 2012.

  1. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>Enter Salamence. This is a Pokemon that was deemed too powerful for DPP OU, which explains just how good it is. That doesn't explain everything about Salamence's power, though. In Black and White, the Dream World gods decided for whatever reason that this already powerful Pokemon needed even more muscle, so they gave it Moxie. Thanks to this ability, Salamence will progressively become more difficult to wall. So, are you thinking you can just send out a physical wall and expect all your Salamence problems to go away? Well, that's not how it works. Salamence has great mixed attacking stats, so you should probably think twice before switching that physical wall in. Okay, so, what does Salamence struggle with then? Answering that question is simple. It faces a lot of competition from Dragonite, who is much bulkier thanks to its stats and access to Multiscale. Additionally, the once unrivaled MixMence now has to compete with the newcomer Hydreigon, who boasts a higher Special Attack stat and access to Superpower. Salamence is also easily revenge killed by Mamoswine and Choice Scarf users such as Landorus and Keldeo. Rest assured, however; Salamence is guaranteed to be a formidable opponent on the battlefield.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Outrage
    move 2: Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast / Aqua Tail
    item: Choice Scarf
    ability: Moxie
    nature: Naive / Jolly
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Alright, I know, you think I'm wasting all of Salamence's great potential with a Choice Scarf set. In fact, it's quite the contrary. By utilizing Choice Scarf in tandem with Moxie, Salamence becomes both a great revenge killer and a deadly late-game sweeper. In short, if your opponent doesn't prepare for Choice Scarf Salamence at all, they will lose. Outrage already hits hard, but add on some Moxie boosts and you've got a real powerhouse. However, going for Outrage early-game is about as smart as intentionally sticking your hand in boiling water. To get around that problem, this set also uses Dragon Claw for those times when Salamence shouldn't be locking itself into Outrage. Earthquake provides Salamence with coverage against Heatran and Jirachi; additionally, Earthquake hits Tyranitar hard without resorting to Outrage. In the last slot, Fire Blast is used to prevent Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn from having a field day. However, should you be running Salamence on a Rain team, it is better to run Aqua Tail instead in order to hit Pokemon such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Volcarona.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set should never be used without Moxie, as Intimidate is simply much less beneficial. Rock Slide is useful for OHKOing Volcarona, but otherwise doesn't do much else except for revenge killing weakened Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. If Salamence is using Aqua Tail over Fire Blast, it should run a Jolly Nature, and the four Special Attack EVs should be moved to Special Defense. As Salamence may be switching in and out a lot, which means taking 25% from Stealth Rock, it is a good idea to run Rapid Spin users such as Starmie and Forretress alongside it. Additionally, Spikes support from Deoxys-D or Forretress can help it Salamence get the OHKOs it needs in order to prepare a sweep. Support from Magnezone and/or other Dragon-types is also helpful in order to weaken or eliminate Steel-types before Salamence goes for a late-game sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Outrage / Dragon Claw
    move 3: Earthquake
    move 4: Fire Blast / Hydro Pump
    item: Lum Berry / Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Feast your eyes on one of the best Dragon Dance users in BW2 OU. With Dragon Dance, Moxie, and Outrage now legal on the same set, this already powerful set is now so powerful it's ridiculous. Outrage at +1 already hits everything that isn't a Steel-type hard, so how about a +2 Outrage, or even a +3 Outrage? Despite the sheer power behind Outrage, Dragon Claw is always a viable alternative in order to avoid being locked into your STAB move against a Steel-type. For covering said Steel-types, Earthquake is used for hitting Heatran and Jirachi, while Fire Blast is used in order to hit Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn. However, if Salamence is being used on a Rain team, Hydro Pump is an option to OHKO Gliscor after Stealth Rock; additionally, Hydro Pump still hits Skarmory and Forretress on their weak Special Defense.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Unlike Choice Scarf Salamence, both abilities have their uses on this set. Intimidate brings Salamence more setup opportunities, but loses out on the powerful Moxie snowball effect. As for the item choice, Lum Berry is generally more useful as it allows Salamence to temporarily dodge status or get out of Outrage confusion for free. However, if using Dragon Claw over Outrage, it's probably best to use Life Orb as this increases damage output. When it comes to other items, the two that stand out the most are Dragon Gem and Yache Berry. Dragon Gem brings some extra power to its STAB, which may help kick-start the Moxie snowball effect. On the other hand, Yache Berry is an interesting item option which allows Salamence to avoid getting OHKOed by Mamoswine's Ice Shard.</p>

    <p>Dragon Dance Salamence has a couple more move options not yet mentioned. Aqua Tail is not as good on this set as it is on the Choice Scarf set, although it does have a notable advantage over Hydro Pump: Aqua Tail's power is boosted by Dragon Dance and Moxie boosts, while Hydro Pump's power is not. Roost is another option that allows Salamence to recover from Life Orb recoil and Stealth Rock damage, although Salamence gets very few opportunities to successfully use Roost.</p>

    <p>Mamoswine is perhaps the greatest threat to this set as it can easily revenge kill Salamence with Ice Shard, regardless of how many boosts it has. Therefore, Salamence should have teammates that can beat it; Pokemon that can do so include Scizor, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. Additionally, Salamence greatly enjoys Rapid Spin support from Pokemon such as Starmie and Forretress because of its Stealth Rock weakness.</p>

    [SET]
    name: MixMence
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Outrage
    move 3: Fire Blast
    move 4: Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    evs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Choice Scarf and Dragon Dance variants of Salamence both have something in common, despite being completely different sets&mdash;they both hate facing Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Slowbro. So, the legendary MixMence returns, ready to take such physical walls and eat them for breakfast. By using Draco Meteor, physical walls that did so well against other variants of Salamence can no longer switch in on it. While Skarmory, Forretress, and Ferrothorn may think they are safe switching into Draco Meteors, they are definitely not going to switch in to Fire Blast thanks to their weaknesses to it. To finish it off, Earthquake is used to hit Heatran and Jirachi.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread ensures every variant of Hippowdon is 2HKOed by this set, with maximum Speed to ensure a Speed tie with Volcarona, opposing Salamence, and other base 100s such as Celebi and Mew. Intimidate is a useful ability to help Salamence switch in on physical attacks, although Moxie powers up Outrage, which can be valuable. Dragon Dance can be used over Fire Blast or Earthquake in order to trick Pokemon such as Slowbro into thinking you're not a Mixed set, and potentially sweeping late-game.</p>

    <p>Of all the other moves MixMence can use, the two most notable are Roost and Brick Break. Roost allows it to recover from Life Orb recoil, although there are very few cases where Salamence can successfully use Roost. Brick Break hits Blissey and Chansey without resorting to Outrage, but without significant Attack investment and Stealth Rock, its low 75 Base Power doesn't even cut it against targets like Tyranitar.</p>

    <p>So, what should MixMence's teammates be? Well, you'll need Rapid Spin support because of that Stealth Rock weakness, so Starmie and Forretress are great partners. Additionally, sweepers who want walls like Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Jellicent weakened or removed appreciate MixMence's help tremendously. Sweepers that benefit from the weakening or removal of these walls include Agility Metagross, Swords Dance Lucario, Swords Dance Scizor, and Double Dance Terrakion.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Before considering any other Salamence set, you really need to ask yourself why you want to use it. The first thing that comes to mind is a Choice Specs set, but you really have no reason to use Choice Specs Salamence over Hydreigon or Latios, both of whom sport higher Special Attack. You could also pull off a Mixed Dragon Dance set similar to what it used in DPP Ubers, although the loss of Attack for Outrage is very noticeable; additionally, being walled by Heatran or Skarmory depending on your move choice is not very appealing. Thanks to Intimidate, Salamence seems like it could pull off a Bulky Dragon Dance set. This set is okay, but there's a Pokemon called Dragonite who has an ability called Multiscale that makes it more bulky and overall a better option. You could also run a Substitute set, which can abuse Moxie effectively and ease prediction against Steel-types. However, be aware that using Substitute in conjunction with Life Orb is counterproductive. Salamence can also run a bulky support set, but why would you use that over Dragonite?</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>If you're actually looking for a foolproof counter to Salamence, forget about it. There are none. However, some Pokemon can come close. Porygon2 is the closest you can get to a true counter thanks to its massive bulk with Eviolite, but with Stealth Rock and some prior damage (a common reality considering Porygon2 has no Leftovers), it will be 2HKOed by a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage if Porygon2 Traces Moxie. However, if it Traces Intimidate, Porygon2 will always beat it. Hippowdon, Slowbro, Donphan, and Cloyster can all switch in on physical variants of Salamence, but they will lose to MixMence. Quagsire and Cresselia can take on physical variants of Salamence, but both have trouble against MixMence; in Quagsire's case, Salamence can actually take advantage of it as Unaware ignores the Special Attack drops from Draco Meteor. In Cresselia's case, Salamence will do a lot of damage with a combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage. Skarmory and Bronzong can both switch in easily if they are on Rain teams, though it should be noted that Salamence may be found on weather teams itself. Additionally, physical variants of Salamence do not like facing Landorus-T thanks to Intimidate.</p>

    <p>While countering Salamence is pretty much impossible, checking it is actually very easy. Choice Scarf users with greater than 100 base Speed, such as Terrakion, Landorus, Latios, Keldeo, and Garchomp, all threaten Salamence immensely, and Choice Scarf users in this speed tier are very common. Mamoswine can also revenge kill it thanks to priority Ice Shard, no matter how many Speed boosts Salamence gets. Scizor can switch in and 2HKO Salamence with Bullet Punch while it's locked into Outrage. Similarly, Choice Band Dragonite 2HKOes with ExtremeSpeed, although Salamence needs to be heavily weakened if you're going to attempt to revenge kill it with Choice Band Dragonite. It should be noted that all of these revenge killers will have a hard time switching in, as they are all hit hard or OHKOed by the appropriate move.</p>
  2. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    General: Naive > Hasty for the most part. Since most of the Pokemon that Salamence is switching into are physical, it's probably better that you use Naive. This is especially true if these sets are using Intimidate to further augment its physical tankiness. Rain boosted Hydro Pumps and Volcarona are destroying you anyway.

    Choice Scarf: Fine

    DD: Intimidate is still very much viable on DDMence. Personally, I find DD + Moxie + Outrage pretty overrated, since most of the time, +1 Outrage is enough to KO most things you'd want to KO, or you're going to end up getting revenge killed anyway. Initimidate, on the other hand, gives a much easier time with setting up. It's also better for supporting the team as well. With Intimidate, you can drop something's attack in a clutch. It's probably one the best offensive checks to Lucario due to Intimidate, since +2 ExtremeSpeed doesn't KO it, and you can easily take it out with Earthquake or something. For this reason, I'd just leave the ability blank on that set, and then explain the advantages of both Moxie and Intimidate on a separate AC paragraph.

    Classic MixMence: Fine

    New MixMence: Again, Intimidate is still a very good option on this set for pretty much the same reasons as on DD. It's even more apparent because Mence isn't that fast any more by this metagame's standards, so most Moxie boosts that you gain would just end up getting wasted anyway, because you'll either end up switching out or get revenge killed.

    CB: I'm really doubting whether this should get a set. It's not by any means, but like SpecsMence, think about all the competition that it gets. Garchomp can run a better Choice Band set due to SR resistance, STAB on EQ and better Speed, Haxorus due to sheer power, Dragonite due to Multiscale, better bulk and ExtremeSpeed, and if the sentiments about Kyurem-B are any indication whether it'll get unbanned or not, that's another Pokemon that can probably run a better CB set than Mence. 328 Speed is nowhere near fast enough to use Moxie effectively. I could potentially see Intimidate being the outright better ability on this set simply due to how Mence can't use Moxie effectively on CB, and at least Intimidate gives you some physical tanking ability. Even then, I wouldn't use CB Mence, I just can't see any reason to use it with a million other physical dragons doing a better job in OU.

    FatMence:
    1) Please name it FatMence. That's what it was called in DPP and I like it better =).
    2) I prefer running Speed on FatMence. The one great thing it has over something like Dragonite is its Speed. You can outspeed Lucario with it, which is a very big plus. Intimidate is generally cushioning physical attacks enough anyway.
    3) Protect - You don't want me to get started on this, please. Why are we using Protect when we have Roost? If you want to pass Wish, you pass it. If you want recovery, you use Roost. So why are we using Protect?
    4) Think about Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor as a slash with Dragon Tail. Dragon Tail is nice and all, but if you run enough Speed, you can outspeed stuff like Hydreigon and Haxorus and quickly kill them before they even do anything.

    So basically, I reckon:

    [SET]
    name: FatMence
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Tail / Draco Meteor
    move 4: Flamethrower
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Intimidate
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 Spe

    Others:

    I'd really consider testing Mixed DD again. I know it was rejected the first time around, but personally, I think it deserves a set. The only thing that it lacks from the other sets is the ability to carry an extra coverage move, which I really don't think is that detrimental provided you have something to take care of it. Have Magnezone ready for Skarmory, or Dugtrio ready for Jirachi and Heatran. You'd get walled by SOMETHING, but that's not that bad since you can always use your team for that. On the plus side, you have a Salamence that can wall-break or lure things early-mid game, while cleaning up in the end-game. I know Outrage isn't that powerful without investment, but since you're using it to clean up, you really don't need to be very powerful, especially when you could potentially be getting Moxie boosts. This is even better at luring shit like Slowbro because they now think you're a physical set, only to get completely wrecked by Draco Meteor. You're still looking at the equivalent of Infernape's Attack when you're invested anyway. So what I reckon:

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Fire Blast / Earthquake / Hydro Pump
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    (I have an eerie suspicion that Hydro Pump is illegal with something)

    Again, I personally find Intimidate and Moxie equally useful on this set.
  3. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    I've been using Hasty for a while, mostly to give Genesect an Attack boost, then go to Heatran to eat a U-turn/Ice Beam (doesn't even have to be Heatran), and otherwise hasn't had much of an effect (though I did find myself taking Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pumps a little better if I could keep rocks off the field). That probably doesn't mean much though, so I'd be fine with putting Naive > Hasty.

    I'm also not too sure about Choice Band (personally I always used CB Haxorus or CB Dragonite on my Dragon-spam teams), but I'll wait for more input before removing it.

    I'd have to test Mix DD before coming to a full conclusion on it (I've never used it nor seen it used effectively), so I'll be working on that.
  4. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    On the "Classic MixMence" set, you should slash in Hydro Pump with Fire Blast for Rain teams. Hydro Pump in Rain on 252 HP Gliscor is a solid OHKO

    4 SpAtk Salamence Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Gliscor: 100.56% - 118.64%

    whereas even a +1 Aqua Tail won't do the trick most of the time against standard Gliscor. For Rain teams, the set should always be DD/Outrage (or DClaw)/EQ/HPump, no question about it. For all the other sets I don't really see any issues, but CB? Really? I don't want to see this in the final analysis, it's god awful in this metagame, too slow and too frail to do anything more than maybe revenge kill something slow.
  5. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Lavos, you mean on the Dragon Dance set, right? On Classic MixMence, Draco Meteor already does 98% minimum to 252 / 0 Gliscor... I'm just going to assume you meant to slash Hydro Pump in on the Dragon Dance set.

    Yeah I'm not seeing much of a reason to use CBMence over Haxorus/Garchomp/Dragonite/eventually Kyurem-B, so I'm just dropping it to OO.
  6. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Not experienced with OU or anything, just wanted to point out that 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 Spe with Timid / Jolly is better in every way (more def, more spe, same HP)
  7. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    Oh ok. Just use that then.
  8. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Does that EV spread outspeed anything specific though? I know shrang's spread beats Modest Hydreigon and FlareBlitz's spread hits 300 Speed, but from my experience base 100s who fully invest in Speed tend to run Jolly/Timid.
  9. sora13

    sora13

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    On the last option of the choice scarf set, I would highly reccomend Stone Edge as another option because it allows you to revenge many Flying types, most notably Thundurus-t and tornadus-t, without locking yourself into outrage
  10. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Stone Edge is not very appealing to me. From my experience, Choice Scarf is Thundurus-T's most common set by far, so Stone Edge won't help much against it. Stone Edge is also 80% accurate, and I view that as a big no on something you'll probably end up using for revenge killing, especially considering Outrage OHKOes Tornadus-T after Stealth Rock. I frequently use Magnezone or Specs Gothitelle alongside ScarfMence, so seeing as I'll probably have removed Steel-types, I'd rather lock myself into Outrage and get a guaranteed hit instead of being screwed by that 20% miss (seriously, Stone Edge misses a lot). Since you're only really hitting Tornadus-T without having to resort to Outrage, I just see no reason to use Stone Edge over an option that hits more stuff, like... Fire Blast.
  11. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    I'd say just run the equivalent of outspeeding Modest Hydreigon would be sufficient.

    @ Stone Edge: While I agree it's probably not worth its own set, do remember that it lets you OHKO Volcarona, which can be pretty important, so I reckon an AC mention would do.
  12. Pocket

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    I prefer Rock Slide, since if you're using ScarfMence to revenge-kill Volcarona, you don't want to risk that 20% miss. Rock Slide OHKOs Volcarona, anyways, so the loss in power isn't really a problem. It also OHKOs Thundurus-T after SR and Tornadus-T after SR & 1 LO recoil. Give Rock Slide an AC mention.

    Also explain FatMence's EV spread. Its Speed reaches 300, enough Speed to outrun Haxorus and neutral base 100.
  13. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Hmmm....should Choice Band ExtremeSpeed (or Bullet Punch) get a mention as a revenge killer? Sure, they can't OHKO like Ice Shard, but they can finish him off if hes low enough.
  14. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Nothing in OU uses ExtremeSpeed except Lucario and Dragonite, and when it comes to that, Lucario needs +2 and Stealth Rock to OHKO Salamence with ExtremeSpeed (if Salamence has Intimidate, Lucario will be at +1 and therefore needs Salamence to have switched into Stealth Rock twice), while +1 or CB Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed does not OHKO Salamence, even with Stealth Rock. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch doesn't OHKO either, but Scizor can actually take boosted Outrages from Salamence so it's more effective at handling Salamence, so it'll be getting a mention. I might mention Choice Band Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed there, but Salamence will need to be weakened by two Stealth Rock switch-ins in order to be KOed by it.
  15. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Emphasize how boss Intimidate is as an ability. It's pretty freaking sweet.

    Classic Mixmence could use some alternate EV spreads as well. It's awesome with Roost. I'll dig some up and edit back.
  16. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    Fair.

    Speaking of Rock Slide/Stone Edge, in addition to Volcorna you can mention it also hits Gyarados pretty hard, but Gyarados isn't that too big of a threat as it used to be. But
  17. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Ok so yeah, just made some changes:

    -Added Rock Slide to Choice Scarf AC
    -Changed FatMence EVs to 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe Timid. This beats Modest Hydreigon (actually hits 297 Speed because of an extra point)
    -Added more priorities to C&C

    I still think New MixMence could do with some new EVs, though. Maybe a spread that guarantees that 4/252/252+ Blissey gets 2HKOed by Draco Meteor + Outrage after Stealth Rock and Leftovers? I came up with 92 Atk / 192 SpA / 224 Spe, which accomplishes this.
  18. PttP

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    i dont see why fatmence's ev spread has enough speed to outrun hydeigon when dragon tail is the main slash that seems pretty counterintuitive
    ?_?

    either dmeteor should be the main slash or there needs to be a different ev spread
  19. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Well Fatmence has a lot of viable EV spreads (as stated in AC), though I agree you shouldn't use the EV spread given if not using Draco Meteor. So, yeah, it would probably be best to either making Draco the main slash or make 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 Spe Timid the main spread (beats Adamant Lucario which I believe should be a bare minimum for FatMence. I just found this spread to be more efficient than 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe Bold which is currently in AC), with the current spread in AC for those who run Draco Meteor (Draco Meteor isn't very useful if you're not running enough Speed to beat Hydreigon)
  20. Pocket

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    AC mention Dragon Gem for DDmence (specify with Moxie ability), it's a nice boost to nab the first KO to start the Moxie snowball.

    I also agree with ballabrown on fatmence's spread - give it enough Speed to beat Adamant Lucario not Hydreigon. The faster Spread can be mentioned in AC instead.
  21. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    Yeah, those changes make sense. Changes done.

    I also went ahead and changed New MixMence's EV spread since I had proposed a change in EV spread but got no one supporting/opposing this. Just changed it to the "beat 4/252/252 Calm Blissey" spread because that one makes the most sense to me.
  22. New World Order

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    I'd like to vouch for the DD Mixed set. While it lacks to utility of Choice Scarf, the pure power of New Mixmence, and the initial sweeping potential of DD, it makes up for it in the surprise element and snowball potential. I'm just gonna say 64 Atk/ 192 SpA/ 252 Spe since it keeps the SpA of New MixMence and retains KOs against whatever that's for. With coverage bettered only by new MixMence, and the snowball potential of MoxieDDMence, this thing will never be useles unless your opponent has a childhood grudge against Mence and made a team of Abomasnow, Mamo, Cresselia, Scizor, Porygon 2, and Heatran or something. Stall? Play it like MixMence, except you trade EQ coverage for a Speed boost to deal with potential revenge killers. Heavy Offense/Hyper Offense? Click Dragon Dance and roll your face on the keyboard. Bulky Offnese/Balance? Use it as a lure to bait out Hippowdon/Gliscor/Slowbro and whatever, and sweep late game if you get an opportunity.

    I personally feel that Fire Blast>Earthquake in almost any case; Heatran and Jirachi quite honestly are unreliable against Mence. When the opponent sees DD, they're not going to send in Heatran unless it's on a Balloon. With 4 Atk EVs, +1 Salamence deals 50.5% - 59.4% to standard Air Balloon Heatran, and since that thing lacks recovery, you should be able to get through if you chipped away at it earlier, or 2HKO if they didn't switch in on the initial Dragon Dance. SpD Tran would never switch in unless they were sure you didn't pack EQ, during which you could already have picked up a kill and started your Moxie snowball. +2 DD MixMence Outrage deals 56.1% - 66.2%, a hard 2HKO. Jirachi is in a similar situation, except that at 252/224, it gets chunked by Fire Blast for 53% - 62.4%. So Mence doesn't even need to lock itself into Outrage to 2HKO.

    I also feel Ninetales should be mentioned as a teammate for MixMence and perhaps even DD Mence. He's everything you ever wanted as a support for Volcarona/Venusaur/whoever else you're trying to sweep with. The damage output that thing puts out with "STAB" Outrage+Meteor+Fire Blast is disgusting. If it switches in safely, chances are something just died.
  23. yee

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    Had a quick chat with Ballabrown and we agreed putting Dragon Dance in the AC of the new mixmence set was a good way to go. When I used it way back when it was pretty much a really hyper mixmence, if you don't think the usefulness of EQ's coverage is getting exploited enough by your opponent it seems logical to me to just throw DD over it and wallbreak even harder with your dragon moves. I'd say since max speed is currently necessary for Genesect that Dragon Gem would need to be the main item so you get KOes on more variants of physical walls like Hippowdon and Slowbro with Draco Meteor. I'd keep the spread at a simple 4 atk / 252 spA / 252 spe.

    I agree DD mixmence needs a set somewhere because it's occasionally very worth the gamble over standard new mixmence, even if it's never really been a staple in BW OU. Putting in the ac of new mixmence hopefuly won't offend anyone.
  24. Adamant Zoroark

    Adamant Zoroark

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    ok so yeah finally got responses to this stuff, so...

    Ninetales is already mentioned as a teammate for Classic MixMence, but I suppose it wouldn't kill anyone to mention it for New MixMence as well. However, it should probably be mentioned that by using Salamence on a Sun team, you're only further compounding Stealth Rock weaknesses. I see the usefulness of DD on MixMence, so I don't see anything wrong with mentioning it in AC.

    As for the EVs/Item, I don't see any harm in implementing them (even though I still find Life Orb more useful, never been a big fan of gems)
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Overview: Although you mentioned the DD set, you should note Salamence's major advantage in being faster than Genesect.

    Scarf: AC Mangezone Support & other dragons to soften up steels

    Dragon Dance:
    ~ AC DClaw + Outrage can be run together in exchange of a loss in some coverage.
    ~ AC Aqua Tail as a decent coverage option in the Rain, letting Salamence hit the likes of Tornadus-T without locking into Outrage.

    Classic Mix:
    ~ Specify that EQ is useful for Jirachi in the rain
    ~ Explain Spe EVs (outruns Adamant Haxorus)
    ~ This Salamence would enjoy a Terrakion check more than others, since its speed is unboosted. Offensive pivot Landorus-T is a solid option for this, imo.
    ~ Note that Ninetales compounds the team's SR / Terrakion weakness.

    New Mix: Move this above Classic Mix, imo. It's a better fit for a more offensive meta, which often does not afford Salamence to Roost

    Checks & Counters: Landorus-T's Intimidate does a good job neutering Scarf Mence and DDmence.

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