Salamence - The Face of The Next Suspect, or Merely OU's Strongest Dragon?

[IcyMan28]

Any more Hard evidence on how Mix Mence or DD mence can "certainly" kill at least one pokemon ?

Let's look at some OU pokemon that are capable of taking a Draco Meteor from the MixMence set - Modern:

164 HP / 160 SpD Scizor: 341 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (140 Base Power): 141 - 166 (43.79% - 51.55%)

Scizor deals with it, as we all know. Unfortunately, it is incapable of coming in on Fire Blast, obviously.

252 / 216 Careful Tyranitar: 341 Atk vs 478 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 139 - 165 (34.41% - 40.84%)

Tyranitar can too...but is outsped and KOd by an Earthquake thanks to SR.

6 / 0 Timid Heatran: 341 Atk vs 248 Def & 324 HP (140 Base Power): 134 - 158 (41.36% - 48.77%)

It's KOd by Earthquake anyway - needs a scarf to KO with HP Ice.

EDIT: I need to go, but I'll be back to finish this post.

I could continue, but you'll find that the pokemon that take Mence's Draco Meteor are either steel type, Cresselia, Suicune, or Blissey, and can thus be removed by Outrage, Fire Blast, or Earthquake. Mence can do this easily, because it outspeeds them.

 

[skorpion123]

Let's look at some OU pokemon that are capable of taking a Draco Meteor from the MixMence set - Modern:

164 HP / 160 SpD Scizor: 341 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (140 Base Power): 141 - 166 (43.79% - 51.55%)

Scizor deals with it, as we all know. Unfortunately, it is incapable of coming in on Fire Blast, obviously.

252 / 216 Careful Tyranitar: 341 Atk vs 478 Def & 404 HP (140 Base Power): 139 - 165 (34.41% - 40.84%)

Tyranitar can too...but is outsped and KOd by an Earthquake thanks to SR.

6 / 0 Timid Heatran: 341 Atk vs 248 Def & 324 HP (140 Base Power): 134 - 158 (41.36% - 48.77%)

It's KOd by Earthquake anyway - needs a scarf to KO with HP Ice.

EDIT: I need to go, but I'll be back to finish this post.

I could continue, but you'll find that the pokemon that take Mence's Draco Meteor are either steel type, Cresselia, Suicune, or Blissey, and can thus be removed by Outrage, Fire Blast, or Earthquake. Mence can do this easily, because it outspeeds them.

Why are we making it an 1vs1 necessarily ? I don't dispute how powerfull a DM set is , being able to rip holes into almost everything that switches over . Though your information is useful for the purpose of the thread. (i,e Ripping holes into the opposition is useful even if the opponent can switch into something else later , though prediction will likely be necessarry again.)

Don't misunderstand what i said , certainly kill one pokemon. I did not mean that you can't switch after Mence used DM.

Because the power drop and Outrage forcing Mence to use it again and again , is one of the things someone can use against Mence. And it basically can give you possible free turns to use to your advantage.

(And so it should be mentioned in the discussion.)


For example. Say Mence uses Draco Meteor on one of those you mentioned.

Can't you switch into a defensive vaporeon next and ... Use Wish , or ice beam or even Toxic ? Will it use Outrage against Heatran (for example)? (possibly not).

If SR is in place the Mence user loses something by switching out as well. (And if it stays in it will likely lose.)

Not a pure counter , team cooperation may be needed to handle that Mence set but that teams have ways to handle it , is a point to mention.

One could argue that a prepared Mence team may be able to handle those "counters" as well.

Or that the holes that Mence creates until it's countered leave the space open for other sweepers. I have no problem with that , i am not denying that it may be so. Though i would like more specific examples about that.

I am just stating it as i see it. MixMence can be countered. And teams do counter it , but it may require more than one pokemon (in your team) for that to happen + some prediction.

 

[Alex_Dino]

This is a mistaken logic; the health of OU is independent of the health of Ubers. If something is a problem in OU, then it is irrelevant what strength it will be in Ubers.

That's exactly the problem. If you applied that kind of logic between OU and UU, it could easily be proved wrong. However in between Ubers and OU it can't be. Therein lies the problem, because the same logic from transitioning from an OU to UU (and vice-versa) should be used to transition a OU to Uber (and vice-versa).

A balanced overall metagame is meaningless; you are trying to have a balanced OU metagame, a balanced UU metagame, and a balanced NU metagame (there's not much you can do to balance Uber, by it's very definition).

Your personal aesthetic considerations about Salamence being suboptimal in Ubers is irrelevant (and to some extent, wrong; Salamence has started to see play in Ubers already, typically alongside Rayquaza).

I'm assuming NU is what you were intending to say.

If a balanced overall metagame is meaningless, then why are we even discussing this? In that case it should be irrelevant whether or not Salamence is broken, we're not going for a balanced metagame. We might as well throw back in Garchomp and all of his buddies in Ubers while we're at it.

In regards to Salamence being suboptimal in Ubers, statistics say it is. November 2009 statistics show it was ranked #26 with 5.10% usage, as opposed to Rayquaza's 28.14% and rank #6, over five times as much usage. And when considering teammates, there is absolutely no mention of Salamence anywhere with Rayquaza.

It says right in the Smogon philosophy that

The UU (and NU) metagames exist to mitigate this problem by creating an arena where lesser Pokémon can be used while still following the competitive ideal...

So why can't this be done on the opposite side of the spectrum? And no, I'm not talking about balancing the Uber tier/banlist, as it is already impossible.

However, we're mitigating from the original topic. The polls show the obvious result: We're probably going to test Salamence. There's really no point to discussing this any further, as the polls shows clearly that there is a need to test it.

 

[Acritter]

Something has just occurred to me actually. It's all very well to say "Salamence's counters only work with correct prediction", but we can turn the argument the other way around. In order for Salamence to beat its counters, it has to predict correctly. If Salamence Draco Meteors or Outrages a steel switch-in, it's countered. If it Dragon Dances on an Ice Sharder, it's countered. Prediction works both ways.

Good point, but most switch-ins are to counter one move in specific, meaning that the Salamence has a higher chance of guessing right. In addition, if the Salamence user knows a significant portion of the opponent's team- say, that they have Weavile and Scizor but with the flier dead (pulled out of thin air, don't comment on how good a team with them would be), then the obvious choice would be Earthquake, which would result in the opponent either switching into a death or revealing a trump card that could either be Latias or be set up on. And this is assuming the other team runs multiple Salachecks.

@Alex_Dino- it has already been stated multiple times that Ubers is the OU banlist.

 

[cantab]

If a balanced overall metagame is meaningless, then why are we even discussing this?

Because we're discussing the balance of the OU metagame, and whether Salamence negatively affects that.

So why can't this be done on the opposite side of the spectrum? And no, I'm not talking about balancing the Uber tier/banlist, as it is already impossible.

That's beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[Scoopapa]

It's just one of those things that looks unstoppable in theorymon but doesn't do as well in practice. Stealth Rock definitely hurts his cause, as does the fact that both of his big STAB moves have a serious drawback. Outrage all but ensures that you can revenge kill him if you're equipped to do so, while Draco Meteor's Sp. Atk drop makes switching around to avoid his attacks much easier. Finally, the prevalence of Ice moves and to a lesser extent Rock moves makes it so that most things have a way to hurt him badly. He's a huge offensive threat, to be sure, but it's not like a team can't prepare for him. Anyone who's ever been part of a CAP process knows how something can look like rambo Jesus on paper and end up being nice and balanced in practice.

 

[Sc4rfCh0mp]

Its been proven through playing on the standard metagame ladder time and time again that Salamence can be worked around because of it being locked into Outrage or getting a drop in Spa from Draco Meteor, etc. It doesn't need a suspect test to show that it doesn't overcentralize or is overpowered, as the current metagame shows that it isn't.

 

[Myzozoa]

If people want to ban salamence then I demand that latias and gengar also be banned as well because each of these are just as strong as mence. Each of these has no good switch in. This is absurd, mence is a threat, but it isn't uber by any means. Can it cripple a wall? Of course, but when do we draw the line? There are always going to be threats, they are what define the metagame. Banning anything that seems remotely powerful is stupid. I can't believe this thread is calling salamence "OU's best dragon". latias meets the support characteristic of an uber imo, and I still have trouble believing that anyone who participated in the last suspect test can objectively say it doesn't meet the offensive characteristic as well. In my mind there is no question that Mence is OU and latias is uber. It isn't hard to understand why. Latias and mence both have base 110 spa, and they both can blow shit away with stab draco meteor, but 3 things make latias more powerful to the point of it being uber with out a doubt (imo): No SR weakness, trick, 110 base speed.


Edit: if neccessary I can compile a movelist for latias that will be considerably longer than the one for mence.

 

[SevveN]

I went yes as offensive characteristic, but I probably should've gone I'm Not Sure, because it's sort've borderline for me. It can rip teams apart, and theres no true counter to MixMence besides maybe Specially Defensive Bronzong with HP Ice. But, with Stealth Rock and Scizor and Latias running rampant, it's checked quite easily. :x

 

[GOTO2435]

Proposing Salamence for Uber is something that had been argued a lot but the moment is here. I personally think that the dragon deserves at least a suspect test since he is powerfull and as stated above looks like rambo jesus in paper and works amazingly well, It beats every check one on one with its different sets and something has to take an Outrage/Draco Meteor to be able to be revenged, sure mence is then locked/at -2 sp.attack and he ihas to switch out/can´t and therefore dies but something must take the first hit and as the calcs proved if you don´t predict right, you don´t know if the check will be a safe check and your check might die so yeah mence deserves a suspect test, i am not saying it is Uber i am saying testing won´t kill anyone to test mence and it might prove that it indeed is Uber.

 

[MrIndigo]

If people want to ban salamence then I demand that latias and gengar also be banned as well because each of these are just as strong as mence. Each of these has no good switch in. This is absurd, mence is a threat, but it isn't uber by any means. Can it cripple a wall? Of course, but when do we draw the line? There are always going to be threats, they are what define the metagame. Banning anything that seems remotely powerful is stupid. I can't believe this thread is calling salamence "OU's best dragon". latias meets the support characteristic of an uber imo, and I still have trouble believing that anyone who participated in the last suspect test can objectively say it doesn't meet the offensive characteristic as well. In my mind there is no question that Mence is OU and latias is uber. It isn't hard to understand why. Latias and mence both have base 110 spa, and they both can blow shit away with stab draco meteor, but 3 things make latias more powerful to the point of it being uber with out a doubt (imo): No SR weakness, trick, 110 base speed.


Edit: if neccessary I can compile a movelist for latias that will be considerably longer than the one for mence.

On Latias, Scizor can switch into everything but HP Fire and OHKO back, and HP Fire reduces it's speed meaning it loses to opposing Latias which is why it doesn't get a huge amount of use.

Naming obscure sets that random pokemon can run to counter their primary checks is meaningless; COMMON movesets on Salamence deal with the common switch ins. It's not a fair comparison.

In any case, this is a discussion as to the merits of a TEST. Latias has been tested, and found to be OU. If you think Latias is better than Mence, you should have no qualms about testing because Mence will be shown to be OU after all.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Honestly haven't people gotten over this silly "100% surefire counter" business yet ? Guess what alot of stuff in DPPt doesnt have a counter, Dragonite doesnt, Lucario doesnt (HP Ice/Ice Punch on switch in so dont you DARE bring up Gliscor), U-Turn makes Scizor not have a counter (no its switched because it wanted to not because you force it out of play, actually its countered YOU because its forced you to find something that can take a CB U-Turn from 591 att), even Gallade doesnt.

I thought that everyone had agreed that it was dumb to try and and counter everything in Dppt as outlined in this great thread by Tangerine and the general consensus is not everything can be countered ?

Anyways to get to the point whilst alot of things cannot be countered, they CAN be dealt with by one means or another. I honestly think thats more important than "oh well it could predict me!" when it can work both ways and the mence user could be like "damn THEY could predict me and i have to switch and take yet more SR damage" which shows mence actually takes skill to use.

 

[IcyMan28]

Why are we making it an 1vs1 necessarily ? I don't dispute how powerfull a DM set is , being able to rip holes into almost everything that switches over . Though your information is useful for the purpose of the thread. (i,e Ripping holes into the opposition is useful even if the opponent can switch into something else later , though prediction will likely be necessarry again.)

Because, IMO, Mence forces you to work on a one on one basis - you need to bring in a steel (at the risk of Fire Blast or Earthquake, and Mence will rarely Outrage as its first choice) first, then lure it into Outrage so that the next pokemon can deal with it. In the process...two pokemon have been severely injured. And although Mence takes SR damage, removing a pokemon is all that is has to do - that specially defensive CB Scizor is 2HKOd by Draco Meteor. Attack, switch, repeat, and you're done - Scizor is no longer a threat.

Don't misunderstand what i said , certainly kill one pokemon. I did not mean that you can't switch after Mence used DM.

Because the power drop and Outrage forcing Mence to use it again and again , is one of the things someone can use against Mence. And it basically can give you possible free turns to use to your advantage.

(And so it should be mentioned in the discussion.)

I feel that this is a valid point. Outrage, while Mence's biggest assets, is one of its biggest weaknesses as well.

For example. Say Mence uses Draco Meteor on one of those you mentioned.

Can't you switch into a defensive vaporeon next and ... Use Wish , or ice beam or even Toxic ? Will it use Outrage against Heatran (for example)? (possibly not).

If SR is in place the Mence user loses something by switching out as well. (And if it stays in it will likely lose.)

Yes, you are correct. But let's say Mence comes in and DMs. You switch to Vaporeon expecting to lure an Outrage, but instead it switches. Later on in the match, it comes in on another ground / support / water / etc move, taking another 25% from SR - that is still 40% it has remaining, more than enough to fire a second attack (maybe two) that could finally break that defensive core.

Not a pure counter , team cooperation may be needed to handle that Mence set but that teams have ways to handle it , is a point to mention.

One could argue that a prepared Mence team may be able to handle those "counters" as well.

Or that the holes that Mence creates until it's countered leave the space open for other sweepers. I have no problem with that , i am not denying that it may be so. Though i would like more specific examples about that.

I am just stating it as i see it. MixMence can be countered. And teams do counter it , but it may require more than one pokemon (in your team) for that to happen + some prediction.

MixMence can be countered, yes, but at the expense of others. Here are some examples:

DDGyara is walled by Rotom-a, Cresselia, Celebi, Porygon2, Tangrowth, and Vaporeon. After an assualt from MixMence, only Cress and Vaporeon are realistically left standing, after a Draco Meteor. And Cresselia is potentially 2HKOd by Outrage + DM, depending on the spread.

Band / Plot Ape is walled by bulky waters / grounds, the latter only if Nape is physical. Since these pokemon are typically the ones that carry the bulk to take a +1 Outrage, they are common switchins to Mence...and succomb to DM quickly after. Nape is free to sweep.

Kingdra (physical versions) are dealt with by bulky waters, Celebi, and possibly Abomasnow and Tyranitar. The bulky waters and Celebi, once again, are removed by Mixmence, as is Tyranitar (who really is only listed due to changing the weather).

Metagross is walled by Skarmory, Rotom-A, the bulky waters, Zapdos, and the bulky grounds. All of them are devastated by Draco Meteor or Fire Blast should they attempt to come in on the DD.

So while I agree that MixMence can be checked, the effectiveness of each one of its common sets force the checking mechanisms to be much more extreme than other OU threats - and if preparing for Mence means significantly less preparation for these other threats, that's not a good thing.

Honestly haven't people gotten over this silly "100% surefire counter" business yet ? Guess what alot of stuff in DPPt doesnt have a counter, Dragonite doesnt, Lucario doesnt (HP Ice/Ice Punch on switch in so dont you DARE bring up Gliscor), U-Turn makes Scizor not have a counter (no its switched because it wanted to not because you force it out of play, actually its countered YOU because its forced you to find something that can take a CB U-Turn from 591 att), even Gallade doesnt.

People aren't really still stuck on that mentality - I, at least, am discussing how it is checked. As far as your examples go, Draggy doesn't have the SpA to rip through Cressy and Suicune, Scizor's offensive sets are still countered by Rotom-A and Zapdos, and running Ice Punch / HP Ice on Lucario reduces its overall ability as a sweeper - for a pokemon that is easily going to switch in and outspeed you if you don't use said Ice attack on the switch.

I thought that everyone had agreed that it was dumb to try and and counter everything in Dppt as outlined in this great thread by Tangerine and the general consensus is not everything can be countered ?

Anyways to get to the point whilst alot of things cannot be countered, they CAN be dealt with by one means or another. I honestly think thats more important than "oh well it could predict me!" when it can work both ways and the mence user could be like "damn THEY could predict me and i have to switch and take yet more SR damage" which shows mence actually takes skill to use.

The reality of predicting a Mence set is much lower than you predicting their future actions. Mence has tons of completely viable sets - even those that are designed to defeat its counters don't really lose overall effectiveness. And regardless of whether or not you predict, your SpD CBScizor is still taking nearly 50% damage from Draco Meteor. 2 switchins at best.

-----------------

I'm not understanding why people are so opposed to this. The proposition that is being entertained in PR (and being discussed in this thread), is that Salamence merely be considered for a Suspect Test. All those who want to ban it can finally have some statistical analysis to back up their claims, while those who argue that Mence is on the same level as Gengar, Latias, and Infernape should have no fear that the Suspect Test would merely prove this assertion.

 

[Objection]

Not really, and it's besides the point anyway. Whether those Pokemon actually do deserve a test or not does not affect whether or not Mence deserves one.

Rather, whether or not Mence deserves a test for any of those reasons does affect whether or not those other pokemon do.

To say "Salamence has no counters therefore it's Uber" is to say "Having no counters automatically makes a pokemon Uber". If there is even one definitely not Uber pokemon that has no counters (and there have been a few such examples already), then the second statement is false, therefore the first statement is false. It's the same for every statement that says that one of Salamence's characteristics makes it Uber.

 

[Raikaria]

While Salamance is at a streach Uber, I think it's safe to say, that if Salamance is 'Broken' why does the Metagame handle it so well? It's not centralisation, Scizor is Centralised.

If Salamance is possibly considered Uber under offence, I'd like to see Scizor tested too, possibly Gyarados. Infernape possibly too, because it can run a mixed boosting set, with more speed and great STABs.

If Salamance is Uber under defence, I'd like to see Suicune, Blissey, Latias, and Skarmory re-tested... and maybe some heads checked, because Salamance is not a wall.

If Salamance is Uber under support, because it can blow a hole in the other team, Infernape, Scizor, Tyranitar, Gyarados, Lucario, and Rotom-A, please.

There is no one clause that Salamance can be justifyed for, without, at the same time, agreeing that something else needs testing, because it falls under the same clause, just as well, possibly even better. Salamance often nets a Kill? Scizor does that too, possibly more often, and more than 1. Salamance breaks holes in the other team? So does Scizor with it's trapping, and supports otherwise by scouting as well.

Meanwhile, while I belive that Salamance doesn't fall under any characteristics personally, I am not opposed to testing it, just to be sure... as long as under whatever characterisitic it is tested for, under the justification, anything that can be debated to do a similar job, or under the same clause, is tested as well. The most likly would be Scizor, but also Infernape possibly (Wallbreaking... +2 Boosting on both sides... high attacks on both sides, good STABS... like Salamance)

 

[MrIndigo]

While Salamance is at a streach Uber, I think it's safe to say, that if Salamance is 'Broken' why does the Metagame handle it so well? It's not centralisation, Scizor is Centralised.

Centralisation doesn't mean "Everyone uses it" or "It is the number one pokemon used". Centralisation just means that the entire metagame is based on its use or counter-use.

As has been pointed out, Scizor's usage when 9/10 of the Top 10 OUs resist Bullet Punch (and before it had that, it's usage was nonexistent) could be due to Salamence's dominance.

To be honest, I don't think Salamence is overcentralising, but I am in support of the metagame being tested without it.

 

[Senzairu]

Mence is obviously an awesome Pokemon and probably one of the best in OU. But it's not Uber. With Stealth Rock, SS, and Priority moves running amok everything in the OU metagame, Salamence has a lot less opportunities to wreak havoc. The main problem people have is switching in to Salamence, because of it's incredible versatility. But the same could be said for Jirachi or Tyranitar. All sets have great counters, you just have to figure out what moveset it's running.

It's a great Pokemon no doubt, but given the other Pokemon and Strategies in OU, it all balances out.

 

[Pheano]

i think it could defiantly be an uber
the real question in my mind though is the effect removing it will have
i think that there are other pokemon that can easily take its place like flygon and latias i think the only effect it will have it people will be less worried about whether their team can stand up to the wrath of an attack equal to an uber or at-least last long enough to revenge it
i wouldn't be surprised if it made the ou more balanced
if we were to send him though i think we should send some other pokemon too like breloom and blisey while were at it to name a few

 

[afterburn]

Mence is obviously an awesome Pokemon and probably one of the best in OU. But it's not Uber. With Stealth Rock, SS, and Priority moves running amok everything in the OU metagame, Salamence has a lot less opportunities to wreak havoc. The main problem people have is switching in to Salamence, because of it's incredible versatility. But the same could be said for Jirachi or Tyranitar. All sets have great counters, you just have to figure out what moveset it's running.

It's a great Pokemon no doubt, but given the other Pokemon and Strategies in OU, it all balances out.

I agree. When Salamence uses Outrage, it gets confused and switches out, coming back in will mean losing another 25%, and getting hit with the move the opponent uses. Salamence, almost always has to switch out after an Outrage, losing the precious DD boosts, which gives the opponent time to set-up. In the mixed sets, its the same story. E.g. Classic Mixed Salamence uses Draco Meteor on Gyarados. The opponent switched in Metagross; Salamence switches out. Metagross used Agility. Now if Salamence does come back in again, it will lose more of its health and most probably get killed by Metagross. Teams that utilize Salamence, usually need more answers to things like Agiligross, which can set-up in the scenario explained above.

If Salamence were to become Uber, than I'm pretty sure Dragonite's usage will increase, I'm not sure whether it will rise to rank #2 like Salamence, but people will have a reason to use Dragonite, instead of just whining: 'Dragonite's more Bulky'.

 

[haunter]

I think that everyone here agrees on the fact that being weak to SR is a huge factor to consider when judging Salamence's tiering. Stealth rock is, of course, a "standard battle condition" considering that almost every team carries it and that it requires little effort to be set up. What we have to decide is if the SR and sanstorm weakness is enough to not even consider Mence as a potential suspect. Note that here we're discussing whether there are profiles under which Salamence can be proposed for a suspect test, not whether it's uber or not.

I agree. When Salamence uses Outrage, it gets confused and switches out, coming back in will mean losing another 25%, and getting hit with the move the opponent uses. Salamence, almost always has to switch out after an Outrage, losing the precious DD boosts, which gives the opponent time to set-up. In the mixed sets, its the same story. E.g. Classic Mixed Salamence uses Draco Meteor on Gyarados. The opponent switched in Metagross; Salamence switches out. Metagross used Agility. Now if Salamence does come back in again, it will lose more of its health and most probably get killed by Metagross. Teams that utilize Salamence, usually need more answers to things like Agiligross, which can set-up in the scenario explained above.

This argument is pretty flawed, as lots of Pokemon (ie choiced Pokemon) have to switch out after they get a kill. And obviously, having answers to certain Pokemon that may set up on the switch out is a matter of team building skills. Say that you have a CB TTar and you pursuit a Latias on the switch out, then you obviously need something to deal with a potential stat upper like SD Luke, else you automatically lose to it.

 

[Deucalion2]

I think the trouble is the vague Uber characteristics. They're left open for too much interpretation.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

General problems - what would be considered "common"? Something which occurs in 50% of all battles? 40%? 30%? And so on. Without any clear benchmark for common, this doesn't really give us any picture. I could argue Pokemom X has to risk Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Sandstorm in switching in, meaning Pokemon X isn't Uber, and quite rightly in the current metagame, you'd point out I was being absurd. But where is the line drawn?

Secondly, where are these common conditions? Imagine a metagame where OU consists entirely of Stealth Rocks resistors, and the number of potentially useable Rapid Spin users is much, much higher. Stealth Rocks would be used much, much less, to the point where it may not be considered "common" (assuming we've found our benchmark for common). However, let us say something like Platinum happened, and we got a Forme which was a super powerful Fire/Flying, Pokemon Y, that we wanted to test for Ubers. Before the introduction of Pokemon Y, Stealth Rocks was an extremely rare move, but due to Pokemon Y's large weakness, usage will almost certainly rise, possibly pushing it above the common benchmark. When considering whether Pokemon Y is Uber, are we using the common conditions of the metagame prior to its introduction? Or the metagame after its introduction? The problem with using that first is that of course a metagame will react to the introduction of any powerful new Pokemon - introducing anything would likely change the common conditions to an extent, simply because this Pokemon Y will get used, even if it is merely Top OU and not Uber. The problem with using the second is that the metagame may get so centralized around defeating Pokemon Y, that Pokemon Y can't immediately be seen to be broken - it might hover at around 30% usage, but because the entire rest of OU is centralized into being able to cope with it, it can't rise further. Obviously, using these common conditions would be unfair, as they've specifically evolved in order to be able to cope with Pokemon Y? So if both sets of "common conditions" have flaws, and neither one is specified, then the term is vague to the point of being useless.

I hardly need to point the exact same problem applies to the term "significant" as it does to "common". How much is common? How much is significant? Is Pokemon X UIber if it can sweep 50% of the metagame easily? 40%? Etc, etc.

Metagame is much like conditions in above, insofar as that which metagame is never defined. Is it a) the OU metagame prior to the introduction of Pokemon Z, or b) the OU metagame after the introduction of Pokemon Z. a)'s flaws are that of course the metagame will centralize slightly around the introduction of any new threat - as an analogy, imagine Tyranitar being introduced to a previously Tyranitar-less metagame. You'd see massive shifts, simply because Tyranitar is very threatening as a Pokemon, Uber or not. b)'s are that the metagame could become so centralized that Pokemon Z can't sweep a "significant" percentage of the metagame, because every other team and Pokemon revolves around preventing it doing so. Neither a) nor b) is fair - a) would of course undergo changes, and in b) the effects may be masked.

Then, of course, it is another vague quantifier, "little". How much is little? From the moment it switches in? Given one turn to set up? Given two turns to set up? Given three? And so on. How much team support is defined as little effort? Would it still be considered little effort if it could sweep significantly with total ease, but required the entire rest of my team to become highly specialised in order to support it, and among ordinary team layout, was fairly useless?



I don't think we can really get anywhere until this is much, much clearer, because at the moment people are just twisting it so that it can justify the banning / unbanning of almost anything.




And on a very slight side note, I notice the Suspect Characteristic seems flawed anyway? If a Pokemon could set up conditions which made another Pokemon capable of walling every single other thing in existance, then apparently it wouldn't be Uber, as the the Support Characteristic can only be applied to those which set up conditions to make other Pokemon capable of sweeping, which seems wrong. Shouldn't the Support Characteristic read:

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to fulfil either of the other two Uber characteristics.

Talking of which, the Support Characteristic also has another flaw specific to it. How many Pokemon is other Pokemon? For example, Pokemon A under by itself isn't Uber in the slightest. Pokemon B has the potential to provide support for Pokemon A to the point where Pokemon A is considered Uber, however, Pokemon B also provides valuable support for other Pokemon, without making them Uber. If we removed Pokemon A from the metagame, we'd have removed everything that could be considered Uber, however, Pokemon A by itself is not Uber. If we removed Pokemon B, we'd have removed everything that could be considered Uber, however, as Pokemon B actively contributed towards making other Pokemon more useful, you could have damaged the metagame in the process by removing Pokemon B who would have been very useful with the existance of Pokemon B. Here, it would seem better to remove Pokemon A, but this is an extreme example. What if Pokemon B made two Pokemon Uber? Three? Four? But in both these cases, it added three/four useful other Pokemon to the metagame? At what point does it stop being the Pokemon who become Uber, and start being the Pokemon that make them Uber?

Then there's the old problem with "how consistent is consistent" and "how substantial is substantial" but I dob't think I really need to go through that again.

This was mostly just a mindspew, but hey, it's 10:00 in the morning and I have free time to burn. Feel free to shoot down.

 

[cantab]

For your last point, I think we use the principle of trying to ban the fewest possible things. So if Pokemon A and B are made Uber by support of C, C is banned. But when Pokemon D becomes Uber by support of E or F, D gets the ban. I may be wrong here, but it seems like the most reasonable principle.

 

[cantab]

As has been said many many times before, how a Pokemon performs in the Uber tier does not determine its status as Uber. A Pokemon is Uber if it is too powerful for OU.

And Salamence sits at a respectable number 26 in Uber, being on about 1 in 20 teams. Lower than several other OUs, but higher than Ubers Manaphy and Deoxys-D. It's generally outclassed by Rayquaza, which means people tend to use them together, to 'double-up' the potent threat.

@Objection: BST doesn't mean that much. 600 is pretty much the OU/Uber boundary though. In fact, counting Deoxys' Formes separately, they're evenly split.

 

[Blackhawk11]

To add to this thread: I don't think that SR is a major factor in Salamence's tiering. Pokemon like (edit: good point Objection) Crobat, Staraptor, and Arcanine are rarely used outside of the lead spot, if they're seen in OU at all. That isn't because they don't make good sweepers, it's because they have a weakness to SR. If Salamence's weakness to SR was so terrible, people wouldn't use it, just like they don't use the aforementioned trio. Yet we see Salamence among the top used Pokemon in the tier. Common battle conditions may include SR and Sandstorm, but Salamence still manages to consistently get one or two kills per match.

However, that last point definately brings up another Uber Characteristic. If a MixMence gets in during the middle of a game, it can potentially take out counters to a late game sweeper. Mence will no doubt draw out the opponents Scarfer, Dragon-resist, or Defensively bulky Pokemon. That makes it easier for a Pokemon like Gyarados, Lucario, or Kingdra to sweep later. That's the Support Characteristic.

I believe that Salamence could potentially be nominated under the Support or Offensive Characteristics, however I'm not sure yet as to where it should be tiered.

Edit: wow, cantab and I pull the same phrase to start off our posts.

 

[Objection]

@Objection: BST doesn't mean that much. 600 is pretty much the OU/Uber boundary though. In fact, counting Deoxys' Formes separately, they're evenly split.

That was the point I was trying to get across but failed miserably.

@Blackhawk: In fairness, the three SR weak pokemon you chose are all doubly weak to SR, whereas Salamence is not. Perhaps Arcanine or Staraptor or Crobat would be better examples to use.