Pokémon Salamence

[preserve]

Just like Talonflame and Azumarill countered Blaziken, eh?

yeah, and don't forget slowbro and latias.

name them, because i really can't find anything that can deal with all its sets and do it effectively

There are pokes that deal with certain sets, the most common being sub/dd. Mence can run a mixed set to counter it, but with every different set you try to use to
go around the usual counters, you are limiting your overall effectiveness. Though this may be a hassle to scout for opponents team, you are also at a disadvantage because mence going to be less effective at least some of the time.

The issues isn't whether it can be dealt with or not. The issue lies in whether or not there are enough ways to deal with it. As it stands, there may be ways to deal with it, but most team types only have access to one or two ways, causing teams to have to carry the same 1 or 2 mons just to deal with a threat that may not even come up.

Not if those 1 or two pokemon are still viable and can still hold its own against the rest of the meta. hp ice rotom or heatran or unaware clefable.

 

[Karxrida]

yeah, and don't forget slowbro and latias.




There are pokes that deal with certain sets, the most common being sub/dd. Mence can run a mixed set to counter it, but with every different set you try to use to
go around the usual counters, you are limiting your overall effectiveness. Though this may be a hassle to scout for opponents team, you are also at a disadvantage because mence going to be less effective at least some of the time.



Not if those 1 or two pokemon are still viable and can still hold its own against the rest of the meta. hp ice rotom or heatran or unaware clefable.

Slowbro and Latias were murdered by Knock Off, while Unaware Clefable can be 2HKO'd by an uninvested Return/Frustration after SR.

0 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Rotom-W also doens't really have room for HP Ice unless it's running Scarf/Specs, and it's literally only for Mega Mence anyway.

 

[Sanger Zonvolt]

yeah, and don't forget slowbro and latias.

252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Wouldn't add Latias to the list, and Slowbro has to be a Mega variant to not get wrecked.

There are pokes that deal with certain sets, the most common being sub/dd. Mence can run a mixed set to counter it, but with every different set you try to use to
go around the usual counters, you are limiting your overall effectiveness. Though this may be a hassle to scout for opponents team, you are also at a disadvantage because mence going to be less effective at least some of the time.

Mixed and special sets are not suboptimal. As Kyurem-B has taught us, 120 special attack is not something to laugh off. Also, while there's nothing wrong with having to scout, if in the process it gets a DD off or a Sub you have a problem.

Not if those 1 or two pokemon are still viable and can still hold its own against the rest of the meta. hp ice rotom or heatran or unaware clefable.

Heatran doesn't want to eat an Earthquake or a Hydro Pump, so I wouldn't add him to the list. Rotom is easily worn down and Karxrida shows what happens to Unaware Clefable. Before I even continue this conversation, are you aware of what over-centralization is, right? Because your arguments leave me inclined to believe you don't know what it means or why it screws up the meta and makes it undesirable.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

yeah, and don't forget slowbro and latias.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 317-374 (104.9 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nice and counter. . .

Also, some Blaze carried BB for exactly that reason. . .
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There were answers that existed, just once it sets up to a certain extent, those things no longer mattered. The same can be said about mega Mence.

 

[Not2good]

yeah, and don't forget slowbro and latias.




There are pokes that deal with certain sets, the most common being sub/dd. Mence can run a mixed set to counter it, but with every different set you try to use to
go around the usual counters, you are limiting your overall effectiveness. Though this may be a hassle to scout for opponents team, you are also at a disadvantage because mence going to be less effective at least some of the time.



Not if those 1 or two pokemon are still viable and can still hold its own against the rest of the meta. hp ice rotom or heatran or unaware clefable.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 385-455 (97.7 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latias: 621-733 (206.3 - 243.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If Blaze ran Knock Off then they weren't counters. Just because something has counters doesn't mean they aren't broken.

 

[silver97]

Not if those 1 or two pokemon are still viable and can still hold its own against the rest of the meta. hp ice rotom or heatran or unaware clefable.

so according to what you say every team in OU must carry those 2 pokemon in order to not get wrecked by a single threat of a hundred (that still wrecks you with adequate support). do you think this is healty for the metagame? would you like building in a meta that forces you to always pick those two pokemon? oh, and you still didn't tell me which are those things that can deal with mence

 

[preserve]

Slowbro and Latias were murdered by Knock Off, while Unaware Clefable can be 2HKO'd by an uninvested Return/Frustration after SR.

That's why you wait for a free turn to bring it in via switch initiative, predicting, or sacking a poke.


Rotom-W also doens't really have room for HP Ice unless it's running Scarf/Specs, and it's literally only for Mega Mence anyway.[/quote]
Sure it does. Pain Split is nice, but it isn't really needed as its recovery depends on your opponent's HP meaning it's not always reliable. And so what if it's mainly for mence,(could be nice for mega sceptile?) you don't lose much by using it and could be useful for better accuracy against gliscor and landorus

Before I even continue this conversation, are you aware of what over-centralization is, right? Because your arguments leave me inclined to believe you don't know what it means or why it screws up the meta and makes it undesirable.

I know what it is, but I'm not in complete agreement that over-centralization should make a pokemon ban worthy.

so according to what you say every team in OU must carry those 2 pokemon in order to not get wrecked by a single threat of a hundred (that still wrecks you with adequate support). do you think this is healty for the metagame? would you like building in a meta that forces you to always pick those two pokemon? oh, and you still didn't tell me which are those things that can deal with mence

Those were just a few that I named. Like I said depending on the the mence set I can probably name some checks/counters.

 

[silver97]

that's excatly the problem, if you have 1 or 2 pokemon that can barely check a threat, but this threat can run multiple sets and all these sets are checked (more or less) by different pokemon for each set, how this thing cannot be broken? it forces you to build like half your team thinking of how to beat mega mence

 

[Of Moose & Men]

That's why you wait for a free turn to bring it in via switch initiative, predicting, or sacking a poke.


Sure it does. Pain Split is nice, but it isn't really needed as its recovery depends on your opponent's HP meaning it's not always reliable. And so what if it's mainly for mence,(could be nice for mega sceptile?) you don't lose much by using it and could be useful for better accuracy against gliscor and landorus



I know what it is, but I'm not in complete agreement that over-centralization should make a pokemon ban worthy.

Pain Split is nice provided the opponent doesn't know what they're doing and they aren't behind a sub.
Also,
+2 0 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Rotom-W: 140-165 (46 - 54.2%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

And before you say "Don't let it set up to +2". It'll set up on your switch, sub or DD. You'll try and Volt Switch, unless you get a really high roll their sub won't break, (because HP Ice on Rotom is just not good in any other instance) and they'll set up again.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 41.9% chance to 4HKO


Now they're +1 and behind a sub, and your "Counter" is no longer in on it, giving it another +1. And then the onslaught begins. There are only a few things that reliably deal with mega mence, and those few things are pretty much needed in order to deal with it, otherwise you get ran over. . .

If that isn't overcentralizing, I don't know what is.

 

[preserve]

And before you say "Don't let it set up to +2". It'll set up on your switch, sub or DD. You'll try and Volt Switch, unless you get a really high roll their sub won't break, (because HP Ice on Rotom is just not good in any other instance) and they'll set up again.

0 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Salamence: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 41.9% chance to 4HKO


Now they're +1 and behind a sub, and your "Counter" is no longer in on it, giving it another +1. And then the onslaught begins. There are only a few things that reliably deal with mega mence, and those few things are pretty much needed in order to deal with it, otherwise you get ran over. . .

If that isn't overcentralizing, I don't know what is.

We're talking as if rotom does have hp ice here. I'm not arguing that mence can break through rotom without HP ice.

 

[stage7_4]

Why are we talking about how to counter Blaziken?

For a real question, while from what little I've used it Special Attacking Salamance is totally a usable thing (that is, running hyper voice as the primary offensive move) has anybody actually seen many of them? Pretty much all I run into are Frustration/Return/Double-edge with either a mixed or pure attack build.

 

[TheTraininator]

Mega Mence broke

 

[Kurona]

I know what it is, but I'm not in complete agreement that over-centralization should make a pokemon ban worthy.

... then what do you think is ban-worthy? Tell you what, let's bring Rayquaza down from Ubers for an OU suspect.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 348-421 (99.1 - 119.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 374-442 (106.5 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hey look, those two Pokémon are checks that can beat it, so therefore Rayquaza can't be broken. Sure, it'll completely over-centralize the meta in that you have to run these Pokémon to beat the damn thing, but hey, it doesn't matter, because over-centralization doesn't make a Pokémon ban-worthy.


Now can we please. Just move onto actual discussion.

 

[Karxrida]

... then what do you think is ban-worthy? Tell you what, let's bring Rayquaza down from Ubers for an OU suspect.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 348-421 (99.1 - 119.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 374-442 (106.5 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hey look, those two Pokémon are checks that can beat it, so therefore Rayquaza can't be broken. Sure, it'll completely over-centralize the meta in that you have to run these Pokémon to beat the damn thing, but hey, it doesn't matter, because over-centralization doesn't make a Pokémon ban-worthy.


Now can we please. Just move onto actual discussion.

I can't help but be that asshole that needs to say that they can't check because Extreme Speed exists.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 333-393 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But yeah let's talk about Mega Mence. Has anyone used a Mixed DD set or just Mixed?

 

[preserve]

... then what do you think is ban-worthy? Tell you what, let's bring Rayquaza down from Ubers for an OU suspect.

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 348-421 (99.1 - 119.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 374-442 (106.5 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Any pokemon that can sweep or wall a MAJORITY of the meta without much support or set-up. For example mega kangaskan. I think rayquaza has much fewer options for a counter as it can learn both dragon dance and swords dance,has higher attack, has priority, can run a life orb to effect all of its attacks, not just one like mence can and has room for outrage.[/quote]

Hey look, those two Pokémon are checks that can beat it, so therefore Rayquaza can't be broken. Sure, it'll completely over-centralize the meta in that you have to run these Pokémon to beat the damn thing, but hey, it doesn't matter, because over-centralization doesn't make a Pokémon ban-worthy.

To argue against this, mega pinsir's only counters/checks were rotom, skarmory and talonflame. I can argue that pinsir is over-centralizing because, I must carry these specifics pokemon to check it, yet pinsir was never really considered to good for a suspected ban. There are probably a few other pokes in the meta that require a few checks and counters to beat it but aren't considered over-centralizing.

But yeah let's talk about Mega Mence. Has anyone used a Mixed DD set or just Mixed?

I have DD/Frustration-Return/fireblast/EQ

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Any pokemon that can sweep or wall a MAJORITY of the meta without much support or set-up. For example mega kangaskan. I think rayquaza has much fewer options for a counter as it can learn both dragon dance and swords dance,has higher attack, has priority, can run a life orb to effect all of its attacks, not just one like mence can and has room for outrage.

Lol, so, mega mence?
The mon that single handedly runs through teams like it's nothing?
Even dedicated walls have problems with it after its set up enough. The fact that people are running scarfed GRENINJA is an obvious indication that it's overcentralizing the meta game. Tell me anywhere else scarfed Greninja would be useful. . .

 

[Gloating]

I can't help but be that asshole that needs to say that they can't check because Extreme Speed exists.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 333-393 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But yeah let's talk about Mega Mence. Has anyone used a Mixed DD set or just Mixed?

Haha I was about to post the exact same thing. Also mixed DD is inferior as you only really need Frustation and maybe Earthquake. You pretty much always want Roost and Substitute/Refresh prevents status. The only Pokemon you would want a special attack for is Skarmory which you can just slap a Magnezone on your team.

 

[Hogg]

But yeah let's talk about Mega Mence. Has anyone used a Mixed DD set or just Mixed?

Before my computer shit the bed I was using a team with Frustration/FB/EQ/Draco Meteor and heavy SpA investment (208 EVs are needed to guarantee the OHKO on Skarm/Ferro). It was a wallbreaker instead of a sweeper, and I used it to lure out Excadrill checks (RotomW, Skarm, Ferro, Rhydon, etc.) to facilitate an Exca sweep later. It was pretty great - it 2HKOs more or less everything, and stall and bulky offense just kind of crapped themselves at the 1-2 punch of MixMence and Exca.

 

[preserve]

Lol, so, mega mence?
The mon that single handedly runs through teams like it's nothing?
Even dedicated walls have problems with it after its set up enough.

Any one can have trouble with a pokemon that set's up enough usually.

The fact that people are running scarfed GRENINJA is an obvious indication that it's overcentralizing the meta game. Tell me anywhere else scarfed Greninja would be useful. . .

Umm, I think people are using scarfed greninja more because of stuff like scarf landorus and possibly beedrill not because of mence.

 

[Archas]

To argue against this, mega pinsir's only counters/checks were rotom, skarmory and talonflame. I can argue that pinsir is over-centralizing because, I must carry these specifics pokemon to check it, yet pinsir was never really considered to good for a suspected ban. There are probably a few other pokes in the meta that require a few checks and counters to beat it but aren't considered over-centralizing.

The difference between Pinsir and Salamence is that Pinsir's poor defensive typing and okay-but-not-great bulk prevent it from finding the room to set up in many cases, and that flaw means it can be played around with intelligent switches and prediction. Salamence, on the other hand, has ungodly bulk for an offensive Pokémon, has way better typing than Pinsir, has the option for mixed attacking sets, and has recovery options in Roost and Refresh to sustain a sweep. It also has better speed than the bug, and has Dragon Dance to boost it further. Basically, even if you have an answer to Salamence, you can still easily be overwhelmed by a set you didn't expect or through sheer monstrous power. Pinsir has to tread far more carefully than Sally does on switching in, hates Stealth Rock with a fiery passion, and is often let down by its unfortunate speed tier.

 

[Siggu]

Any one can have trouble with a pokemon that set's up enough usually.

Power when set-up is something almost everything has in Pokemon. Now, EASE of set-up is very highly coveted. Guess what does Mega Salamence happen to have?

With Intimidate letting it force out even some of the strongest physical attackers in the tier and a surprisingly good array of defensive moves, getting to that precious +2/+2 is pretty easy.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Any one can have trouble with a pokemon that set's up enough usually.



Umm, I think people are using scarfed greninja more because of stuff like scarf landorus and possibly beedrill not because of mence.

It's about how absurdly easy it is for it so set up, It's like mMaw, but on an entirely different level.

If they were carrying it for scarf lando, it would have been used more last gen. Beedrill is hardly seen, and has much better stops than scarfed ninja. There's one reason it's used, and it's the subject of this thread.

 

[Tressed]

Umm, I think people are using scarfed greninja more because of stuff like scarf landorus and possibly beedrill not because of mence.

The only reason that Scarf Greninja even sees use is because it happens to be fast enough to OHKO a certain sweeper who can get to +1 against an offensive team very, very easily. No one needed it to stop Scarf Lando in XY, why do you think that's changed for ORAS?

 

[MilkyWay]

The real Dragon of OU: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/orasou-183300633
Fuck Mega Salamence

 

[BlackSIlk90]

How would a double bird core consisting of DdMence and CB Staraptor fare?