Salamence

[Fluffy Otters]

I'll do one better, Accidental. Here's a link to a warstory where one of the (very good) battlers makes excellent use of a Defensive Mence, and proves why Intimidate is probably the deciding factor in it's use whilst doing so: Linky

I'd also like to add that at present, with Lati@s, Chomp, and such still in OU, Mence's offensive sets are somewhat outclassed, as are Nite's. This battle I believe justifies the greatness of a defensive set on him, which is a useful new niche.

How is Dragonite's Dragon Dance set outclassed by any of those? Latis attack specially and Garchomp Swords Dances while Dragonite can raise insane speed+attack at the same time while being a pain to kill with Multi-Scale, superior defenses and Roost. The only pain is whether to go with Fire Punch or Earthquake (Fire Punch hits Nattorei, Skarm, and Brongzong which Earthquake can't/can't hit well although there was one battle where I ran into Tormentran and was stalled out and lost because I couldn't hit the dang thing very well which made me really wish for Earthquake). Dragonite is bulky as heck and while Salamence can be, he can never hope to be quite as bulky as Dragonite (without Intimidate against the first pokemon) in the same way. Even Dragonite's offensive Dragon Dance set is phenomenal since it is still one of the best Dragon Dancers, period.

But Salamence is quite an able physical defender with Intimidate and invested defenses. I don't know if he should be running Dragon Tail though. But it is effective.

 

[JSND]

The argument superior nite or mence is same as saying which arceus is the best. Nothing will come out of it. Trying to use them both in the same team MIGHT work but i dont know. But for sure thing nite this gen is one heck of a badass. Set up multiple time become very viable in this gen where bulky spread on a sweeper is a real problem compared to fully offensive(ulgamoth for example)

 

[Lork]

i've been looking for a bulky dragon, so out of kyu, mence and nite which one's the superior one? kyu looks badass but is ice... mence has intimidate and nite has multi scale. what's better?

 

[Raptorg]

i've been looking for a bulky dragon, so out of kyu, mence and nite which one's the superior one? kyu looks badass but is ice... mence has intimidate and nite has multi scale. what's better?

If you want a bulky dragon, go for Dragonite, just don't use it for something it isn't meant to be.

 

[Lork]

If you want a bulky dragon, go for Dragonite, just don't use it for something it isn't meant to be.

what do you mean by that?

 

[JSND]

If for bulky tank, mence. FOr some special buil phazer tankish poke use nite.
Kyuremu is better as a specs user in hail.
Dragonite is more of a bulky sweeper this gen though and as gen 5 has said to us bulky sweeper > Fast sweeper in gen 5

 

[Granstafer]

my thoughts exactly. again, Nite did not gain anythig much in the ways of sweeping, so the same overview still applies: do not use nite as an inferior mence. ergo, do not use a DD nite in the same way you would use a DD mence.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Endless Phaze
Salamence @ Choice Scarf/Leftovers
Overconfidence (or whatever its called) Jolly Nature
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
-Sleep Talk
-Dragon Tail
-Fly
--

Switch in on a Sleep move after your team has set up SR/Spikes/Toxic Spikes/Any debilitating Statuses. Use Sleep Talk to lay down Dragon Tail hax without having to worry about Rest failures. Best use would probably be keeping Salamence out for only 2-3 turns, and then withdrawing it if its still asleep- Gen V mechanics mean its sleep counter will reset. Then just bring it out every time one of your Pokemon faint, making sure to withdraw it before sleep runs off.

Overconfidence in case Dragon Tail gets a KO. Leftovers if you're REALLY worried about Stealth Rock and Weather, but this set is all about Speed, so Choice Scarf is basically a necessity. Priority can wear him down as well, but the only major one to be worried about is Ice Shard. If you have issues with that, use Intimidate as the ability instead. Fly is just there so if he wakes up and it looks like Dragon Tail isn't going to cut it, you have an alternative move to fall back on. (Sleep Talk won't select Fly)

Basically, to run this, you're going to need a team that is already capable of keeping the field clear of SR/Spikes/ETC, while setting them up themselves. You'll probably also need something to counter common Ice Shard users. Mischievous Heart users can also cause some problems, but I don't think they commonly carry the moves that are most deadly to this set. There is also the major issue of facing an opponent that doesn't run Sleep... so this set may not be worth it.

This set is definitely gimmicky, but its more reliable than the majority of gimmicky sets I've seen. If you can get it to sleep, and are lucky enough not to have 1 turn of sleep, the effort of setting it up will more than pay for itself, and even if you can't get SR or spikes down, a couple of stab Dragon Tails every time one of your Pokemon goes down will quickly add up.

Golbat does this better . . . why doesn't golbat do this? Because . . . how often is there an easily predictable sleep move? Oh wait . . . breloom . . . that's about it.

 

[BurningMan]

Golbat does this better . . . why doesn't golbat do this? Because . . . how often is there an easily predictable sleep move? Oh wait . . . breloom . . . that's about it.

this is the least problem the bigger problem is that you never know when you wake up and the new sleep mechanics don't help much (1 or 2 turns of sleep are much more likely now)

 

[Benlisted]

How is Dragonite's Dragon Dance set outclassed by any of those? Latis attack specially and Garchomp Swords Dances while Dragonite can raise insane speed+attack at the same time while being a pain to kill with Multi-Scale, superior defenses and Roost. The only pain is whether to go with Fire Punch or Earthquake (Fire Punch hits Nattorei, Skarm, and Brongzong which Earthquake can't/can't hit well although there was one battle where I ran into Tormentran and was stalled out and lost because I couldn't hit the dang thing very well which made me really wish for Earthquake). Dragonite is bulky as heck and while Salamence can be, he can never hope to be quite as bulky as Dragonite (without Intimidate against the first pokemon) in the same way. Even Dragonite's offensive Dragon Dance set is phenomenal since it is still one of the best Dragon Dancers, period.

But Salamence is quite an able physical defender with Intimidate and invested defenses. I don't know if he should be running Dragon Tail though. But it is effective.

Yeah, true, bear in mind that I said somewhat outclassed, not entirely. Of course there are teams who would prefer the bulk DNite offers, or its priority, or its SpAtk viability, but the fact is that Latios in particular's power and speed is so good off the bat that DNite is often overlooked in favour of something else. Salamence similarly, in fact, though he is obviously a more offensive DDer than a bulky as hell one.

I suppose Chomp was a pretty bad example, admittedly, as he more counters the two DDers with a Scarf than competes with them. But nonetheless he does reduce their viability.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Yeah, true, bear in mind that I said somewhat outclassed, not entirely. Of course there are teams who would prefer the bulk DNite offers, or its priority, or its SpAtk viability, but the fact is that Latios in particular's power and speed is so good off the bat that DNite is often overlooked in favour of something else. Salamence similarly, in fact, though he is obviously a more offensive DDer than a bulky as hell one.

I suppose Chomp was a pretty bad example, admittedly, as he more counters the two DDers with a Scarf than competes with them. But nonetheless he does reduce their viability.

If something is to outclass something, they have to be doing a similar job and role for your team so Latis being insane special attackers have nothing to do with Dragonite Dragon Dancing. You can't really compare that. And after a Dragon Dance, Dragonite outspeeds non-Choice Scarfer Latis. Now if you were using Dragonite to do the special attacking (except in Rain), I can see how the Latis easily outclass that. And if Dragonite has Multi-Scale up, don't attempt using Garchomp on it. It would just die. And aren't most Garchomp now Swords Dance?

Dragonite is only 2 attack points lower than Salamence. What Salamence has is initial speed and not being afraid to use Life Orb and being an incredible mix attacker. Dragonite can't afford as well to do that (without Roost) since it would disable Multi-Scale so often tuns Leftovers which does do less damage although obviously Draco Meteor is still a slammer and good luck switching steels in considering it has Fire Blast unlike Latios/Latias. And it isn't as easy to revenge kill as Salamence...

 

[Lork]

I'll do one better, Accidental. Here's a link to a warstory where one of the (very good) battlers makes excellent use of a Defensive Mence, and proves why Intimidate is probably the deciding factor in it's use whilst doing so: Linky

I'd also like to add that at present, with Lati@s, Chomp, and such still in OU, Mence's offensive sets are somewhat outclassed, as are Nite's. This battle I believe justifies the greatness of a defensive set on him, which is a useful new niche.

ah yeah, i remember reading this story. seems as if mence is the way to go for a bulky dragon. here this guy uses eq/claw/tail/eq. seems like a solid moveset to me, and especially for me since i need a phaser. but then where would you invest evs? 252 in hp then the rest in speed? split between defences?

 

[Fluffy Otters]

ah yeah, i remember reading this story. seems as if mence is the way to go for a bulky dragon. here this guy uses eq/claw/tail/eq. seems like a solid moveset to me, and especially for me since i need a phaser. but then where would you invest evs? 252 in hp then the rest in speed? split between defences?

Why would you use Salamence as an inferior Dragonite? The only thing Salamence has over Dragonite defensively is Intimidate and surprise which only works on the first poke and here you're phazing. This makes Salamence's higher speed unexistant unless it's against another phazer. And how does the set work without Roost? Roost makes it even more effective. With Multi-Scale up, physical investment makes Dragonite even better. Dragonite has a negligible difference in attack and hp and Dragonite can Thunderwave and Light Screen for example.

Wait a minute...why does Salemence have two earthquakes in that set?

 

[tehy]

Actually fluffy it's not that much harder,as long as you get SR up. Unless d-nite roosts on the switch, but then he can't dragon dance on the switch.

And lork,he uses earthquake twice?

Aw ninja'd.

 

[tehy]

And yeah, why a bulky salamence? Intimidate is nice over dragonite, but most of mence's advantages come from special attack and speed,both of which don't matter on this set anyways.

 

[Benlisted]

I think people forget just how useful Intimidate is - repeated switchins can neuter a setup pokemon, or otherwise deadly sweeper who poses huge threats to your team. It's not just about making things hit Mence a little less hard.

 

[Pika57]

Golbat does this better . . . why doesn't golbat do this? Because . . . how often is there an easily predictable sleep move? Oh wait . . . breloom . . . that's about it.

Except Golbat's phaze move doesn't deal damage.

 

[tehy]

But it's still a terrible strategy.

 

[Plusle]

WallMence is pretty good

Salamence@Leftovers
Wish
Protect
Flamethrower
Dragon Tail

On a stall team is a unexpected but good wishpasser with good phasing as well. Flamethrrower breaks down Natorei as well.

 

[Dracolosse]

WallMence is Fun but it's not something people use seriously, there are better wishers, especially with the base HP that now matters a lot...


About the Intimidate vs Moxie thing, people need to realize Mence is weak to Stealth Rock, Sandstorm and takes LO recoil : it needs to minimize the damages it takes on its switch-in if it wants to last more than 2 turns. Intimidate is much better, at least until Outrage and Moxie aren't compatible.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Step aside, garchomp. Salamence is the new top dragon.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Step aside, garchomp. Salamence is the new top dragon.

Ehhh,Mence was already the top dragon in Gen 3 and Chomp is arguably better at times with his trollish 102 speed.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Ehhh,Mence was already the top dragon in Gen 3 and Chomp is arguably better at times with his trollish 102 speed.

Yeah, I suppose you're right. Garchomp has speed, stealth rock resistance, and sand veil. And salamence has, well, everything else.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Yeah, I suppose you're right. Garchomp has speed, stealth rock resistance, and sand veil. And salamence has, well, everything else.

Well,Garchomp has:
-Higher Speed
-Better bulk
-Better offensive typing
-Swords Dance
-SR resistance
-Great supporter and phazer

Salemence has:
-Higher offenses
-Dragon Dance
-Better Defensive typing
-Somewhat good supporter

Latios then just says "F*** you" to both of them.

 

[Lork]

mence also has roost which gives it a pretty good advantage over chomp if rocks aren't up and considering they aren't that common these days, as well as not being effected by spikes and toxic spikes.