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Sand in BW2 Discussion (OP WIP)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Dice, Nov 5, 2012.

  1. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    Art by Yilx!


    Sand in the BW2 Ubers Metagame


    An often underrated and consequently under-explored team archetype in the newly forming Ubers metagame is Sand Stream. Sand Stream has several unique features which the two most common weathers, Rain and Sun, lack, giving it a unique niche in the current metagame. The primary boons of Sand Stream are the passive damage it has and the abusers.

    Tyranitar, the sand inducer used the most often in Ubers, has a cool niche of being able to check several common, new Uber threats that were released in BW2; furthermore, Tyranitar's Sand Stream gives Tyranitar a massive Special Defense allowing it to check much more than the newly released threats. With the release of Soul Dew from BW2, Lati@s were buffed immensely as they now have fantastic specially-defensive and specially-attacking stats making them one of the most common Kyogre checks currently. Tyranitar can take advantage of the ubiquity of these Pokemon and trap them with Pursuit or Crunch them to death giving an early 6-5. With Lum Berry Tyranitar becomes a fantastic check to several other Pokemon as well. It can switch into Darkrai with ease, or lead against it Turn 1 and tank the Spore and proceed to OHKO it with a fighting-type move. On the same token, a Lum Berry is precious to have versus opposing Ho-Oh's, graced with Regenerator from Dream World, as Tyranitar resists both of it's STAB's, can fight off the burn, and then proceed to OHKO with a Rock-type move. Reshiram, Thundurus, and MewTwo are also checked easily by Tyranitar, the latter being safely checked with a Chople Berry.

    Hippowdon is another sand inducer that has a solid place in Ubers, although it is not seen as often. In BW1, more experienced players typically used Hippowdon in Rain teams with its Dream World ability Sand Force. This was good for a few reasons:

    1. You could run a different forme of Arceus instead of Ground.
    2. Hippowdon, unlike Groudon, didn't interfere with Kyogre's benefits it gave from Drizzle.
    With the release of BW2, a rival came along for the job of a Rain Ground-type, however. Landorus-T has a few advantages over Hippowdon which I personally think make it better suited for the job such as speed to outspeed neutral Base 90's, an immunity to Spikes, better overall bulk, power, and U-turn. With this in mind, Hippowdon's primary, new-found niche is in Sand Stream for team support and checking several different Pokemon than Tyranitar. Hippowdon basically walls as many things Physical and Tyranitar does Special. The most powerful Physical attackers such as SD ExtremeKiller Arceus, Zekrom, and even Groudon succumb to this fat ass. Keep in mind its Sand Stream opens the doors to the beautiful passive damage and the sand abuse, even if it cannot abuse the Sand itself like Tyranitar.

    Sand has several upsides while using it.

    WIP:

    • cores (tyranitar + ogre, tyranitar + ferrothorn + gira)
    • EXCADRILL CAN SPIN SPIN WELL WELL
    • ARCEUS ROCK
    • grass is good too.. but rock man..
    • garchomp i guess
    • passive damage which sun and rain dont have

    • next paragraph for good partnerz
    • big girl latias
    • (BAN ME PLEASE) vag ferrothorn
    • ho-oh ~~~~~~~ <3
    • lugia i guess but i dont like it
    • dialga sucks
    • gastrodon is actually OKAY in sand, try it out!

    • CONCLUSION
    • sum it all up
    • reread since i did this at midnight and my grammar will be terribleeeee
    What is your opinion on sand? What are the major assets and downfalls to utilizing it? What are some cool or innovative ideas you have to help further our exploration into this team type?



    Discuss!



  2. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Should be tank the Dark Void.

    Tyranitar can check Reshiram but Focus Blast will OHKO poor Tyranitar. Specs Draco Meteor deals huge damage, a potential 2HKO with SR up. All other Reshiram sets are walled however.

    Skarmory works well in sand too, because it helps check opposing Excadrill and Spikes + sand to wear down foes. Tyranitar resists Fire while Skarmory walls Groudon and Extremekiller Arceus.

    Giratina can do well in the sand, because it shares good synergy with Tyranitar or Hippowdon. Hippowdon beats some Zekrom while Giratina checks Kyogre, Grass Arceus and friends.

    A good thing to keep in mind is sand teams tend to be very weak to Fighting Arceus, opposing Excadrill and Kyogre. Calm Mind Latias is a good counter. CM Ghost Arceus can be a huge annoyance as well because boosted Focus Blast rips through Tyranitar while Hippowdon is flattened by Judgment.

    Garchomp is good and Terrakion is too.

    Both Groudon and Kyogre scares off Tyranitar so the weather is hard to keep. Hippowdon fears Kyogre even more but safely walls most Groudon bar those rare SD LO versions.

    Forretress is ok in the sand, it helps wear down Giratina-O faster too. Rayquaza is a good addition for more offensive sand teams to deal with defensive Kyogre and enemy Excadrill.
  3. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Garchomp no longer has sand veil. Sand Veil was banned under evasion clause. As long as evasion clause exists in ubers, Garchomp will be unable to take advantage of the sand.
  4. Hugendugen

    Hugendugen Noam Chompsky.
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    The Evasion Clause that exists in ubers only pertains to moves. Sang Veil and Snow Cloak are most definitely not banned.
  5. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Adding to what Hugendugen has said, the Sand Veil clause only takes place on tiers that are below OU, including. Because Ubers is a tier above OU, it's not banned here.

    Anyway, Sand is really really solid. Hippowdon is really underrated in my opinion; it can shrug off physical hits like a champ, and as recovery which is something Groudon would die to get. Garchomp is also pretty underrated, in my opinion; sure, Scarf sucks, but SubSD is really viable. The Tyranitar + Giratina strategy to beat Choiced Kyogre should also be mentioned!
  6. tehy

    tehy

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    I'd argue that landorus-T isn't really better suited than hippowdon, simply because it lacks recovery and phazing. Lacking recovery (Besides lefties) obviously makes it much easier to wear down, and lacking phazing means that any threat it can't actually force out can just set up on it. The main pokemon i'm thinking of are SD groudon and SD arceus. Clearly SD groudon and arceus will beat down hippowdon, but you can at least roar them out once. Landorus-T is just giving them more setup time. All landorus-T really does is spams EQ or u-turns to a faster pokemon that needs a safe switch-in. Spamming EQ on arceus just lets it SD, and since a lot of arceus run extremespeed, you're not guaranteed to beat them with faster pokemon alone, and the extra +1 could make marginal checks ohko'd. Meanwhile, groudon could decide to just hit landorus-T, and then end up heavily damaging your check, since he's slower than landorus-T. Or he could be a double dancer, RP, and then smash your check at +2 speed with +1 Lo attacks off of base 150 attack. Unless you've already got really good checks to these pokemon, this stuff could be a problem.
  7. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    Landorus-T gets Roar, and it often runs Toxic. :o It's more of a toss-up, but Poppy and I talked about it and we both somewhat agreed Landorus-T is a bit better.
  8. superbadd

    superbadd

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    I heard hippo sucks in ubers... Is it even viable? I know ttar is good for countering ho-oh and the lati twins.
  9. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    Of course it's viable. Being able to check ExtremeKiller, Zekrom, Groudon, Excadrill, Terrakion, to, etc. is no easy feat. In addition it has reliable recovery meaning, something none of the other Ubers weather inducers have, unless you call RestTalk "reliable".
  10. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    perhaps i'm just forgetting something major here, but glancing over your partners list you mentioned lugia. now i'm pretty biased against lugia as it is (because in all honestly i think it's horrendous) but why exactly do you consider it a good partner in sand?
  11. polop

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    Lugia checks a ton of stuff, albeit it is setup bait for a ton of stuff too (probably your reasoning for your bias against it, am I right?), but it gets Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, Whirlwind, and Toxic to try to avert that so you can't blame it too much. In particular, it can phaze / Toxic Fighting, Ground, and Water Arceus.

    Adding on to what Sand teams are weak too, Calm Mind Ground Arceus and Water Arceus can be a real pain. Ground Arceus tends to annoy teams not utilizing Palkia while Water Arceus flourishes on teams lacking a Latias. Both can stomp over Giratina-a if they use Ice Beam (which they often do).

    Actually Tyranitar is screwed if it switches into Surf, Grass Knot, or if its running a set that lacks Special Attack investment, Calm Mind. Surf and Grass Knot 2HKO Tyranitar.

    Going to mention this again, Furai referred to it earlier. Partners that can bait Ice Beam or Thunder from Choice Kyogre (see every Specs Kyogre switch-in in the game), work well with Tyranitar since Tyranitar can switch into the Thunder / Ice Beam and Pursuit the Kyogre which helps in winning the weather war. That or the Kyogre doesn't spam Thunder or Ice Beam which just helps your Specs Kyogre switch-in.

    Mention Gliscor! Sand + Toxic poison residual damage is really devastating x_x, combine that with Taunt and you should be killing stuff pretty fast. It doesn't benefit much from sand aside that though :(.

    Also ctrl + f Deoxys -> No results. Tyranitar is one of the few things that can stop Deoxys-S from setting up hazards. Deoxys-S is forced to either lay down 1 layer of hazards or Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock from coming up since Crunch brings it down to sash and Sand breaks sash.

    Do mention that non-rock / Steel / Ground Arceus may get annoyed by constant 6.25% wittling away at their HP bar :P. Samething with Giratina-O and Chansey.
  12. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    Thanks all! The OP will be updated tomorrow. Any interesting ideas or teams anyone wants to share?
  13. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    Am interested in trying Ubers, so I'm curious as to why Ho-oh makes a good Sand partner, since you usually think of it as a sun mon. What things other than beating Arceus Fighting/heavily damaging Kyogre does it do to help sand teams?
  14. jackm

    jackm

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    Ho-oh resists almost all of Tyranitar's weaknesses (Grass, Fighting, Bug, Ground, Steel) and takes pressure off of T-tar to take special hits for the team. It also can switch into Genesect with no fear whatsoever and act as a bulky pivot for the team; it walls Groudon sans Stone Edge and spreads burn throughout the team. A set with Substitute really manhandles opposing stall as well.

    In the past, I've run sand numerous times so hopefully I can contribute to the general discussion. I have a set that doesn't seem to be very popular, but no doubt works.

    Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    252 Atk / 4 Sdef / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Crash
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock

    Pretty good utility Pokemon, it can set up rocks against a lot because of the pressure it can put up on the opponent. Ice Shard can revenge Garchomp (not common but it can cause problems if you encounter it) and Rayquaza; Earthquake does a number to pretty much anything that doesn't resist it, except Giratina, but...

    252+ Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 248/252+Giratina:29.42-34.79%

    252+ Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248/252+ Giratina:50.09-59.44%

    After a couple of rounds of hazards, I'd like to see you survive that. This set works well with Ho-oh to threaten Skarmory; it gets rid of the main obstructions to Ho-oh fairly well, namely Arceus-Rock, Tyranitar, and Giratina.

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