Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Toshiro46]

One thing no one has mentioned regarding Manaphy is how incredibly good it is on Scoli-pass teams - at +2/3 it outspeeds everything, and can set up a tail glow and sweep so effectively. While this is not the only reason to rank it quite highly, it really does add another string to Manaphy's bow.

This is well known. I rarely see a Scolipass team without manaphy, because it's widely considered to be one of the top 3 recipients for speed.

Edit because this is a one liner and I want to be useful:

What do people think of Nidoking now? A month ago, there was a lot of talk about it, because sheer force/life orb hits hard as fuck and its got great coverage, but now its still at B- and doesn't see much use. Did Dug surviving the suspect hurt it?

 

[Porii Sames]

hopefully this isn't against the rules as a one-liner of sorts, but i was curious as to how the meta shifted (since ORAS, which i realize isn't particularly relevant but it's the closest thing i have to relate to) so severely that alakazam isn't even considered viable anymore. is the surge of the greninja forms crippling its usefulness - as well as how common mega scizor is? not saying it should be on here (hard to say that since i don't play SM OU really); was just wondering why it's considered below the likes of decidueye and talonflame now.

 

[Toshiro46]

hopefully this isn't against the rules as a one-liner of sorts, but i was curious as to how the meta shifted (since ORAS, which i realize isn't particularly relevant but it's the closest thing i have to relate to) so severely that alakazam isn't even considered viable anymore. is the surge of the greninja forms crippling its usefulness - as well as how common mega scizor is? not saying it should be on here (hard to say that since i don't play SM OU really); was just wondering why it's considered below the likes of decidueye and talonflame now.

Tapu Lele pretty much completely invalidates Alakazam and even Mega Alakazam to an extent. It has a stronger psychic/psyshock + STAB Moonblast (instead of non-STAB dazzling gleam), and it also has Focus Blast and Shadow Ball, which are the usual coverage moves of Zam, and some other cool stuff like Thunderbolt. It's also got more bulk than both. Finally, Psychic Terrain provides immunity to priority, which is huge. The only real thing either has over Lele is speed, but Lele can run scarf if it wants and speed doesn't mean as much anymore for the Zams when Pheromosa runs around with STAB U Turns.

It also doesn't help that the meta is super steel-heavy.

tl;dr Lele happened.

 

[asterat]

Buzzwole is absolutely terrible, and should probably go straight to C or C-. It got barely and SPL usage at first, lost every time, and then people stopped using it entirely. It's not really good at anything, and it's a very unreliable and shitty "wall." I've yet to see a good SM team with Buzzwole. It's a shit scarfer because it's slow and superpower sucks, and it has horrible STAB (and weak options) for choice band. it's a bad defensive pivot because it's weak to psychic, flying, fire, fairy, and gets annihilated by pretty much any special attack, etc. It's honestly just an awful pokemon in the metagame right now, I can't think of a compelling reason to use it. It does not wall Pheromosa at all, I guess it walls Zygarde, but then coil fucks it over. It's just really, really, bad. I think the best reason for it to drop is its complete lack of usage in SPL, and it's 0% winrate. Maybe I'm being too hard on it and someone can justify why to use Buzzwole, but I really can't think of a reason. Looking at ranks like B- and C+ there are niches for those mons, I've seen them used on good teams, teams that won SPL games and peaked the ladder. Buzzwole doesn't have that going for it, I don't think it has a place in the metagame at all. I think people honestly forgot about Buzzwole, nobody talks about it yet somehow it's still floating in B...

 

[vso]

hopefully this isn't against the rules as a one-liner of sorts, but i was curious as to how the meta shifted (since ORAS, which i realize isn't particularly relevant but it's the closest thing i have to relate to) so severely that alakazam isn't even considered viable anymore. is the surge of the greninja forms crippling its usefulness - as well as how common mega scizor is? not saying it should be on here (hard to say that since i don't play SM OU really); was just wondering why it's considered below the likes of decidueye and talonflame now.

This generation, alakazam really misses the speed tier Mega Alakazam possesses. That outspeeds tapu koko, greninj, its ash forme, weavile(less relevant but still there), neutral pheromosa, etc.
So that this isn't a useless post I'd like to talk about a couple of nominations.
Charizard-Mega-X --> B+/B
Strongly agree. Mega Charizard X is not that great anymore, facing competition with Volcarona as an offensive fire, and is revenge killed by Scarf garchomp and niheligo even at full, and gengar, pheromosa, and keldeo require little chip damage, and it is super easy to chip Zard. Scarfers, however, are not close to Dragon Dance's only major flaw. Pokemon like Tapu Fini and Landorus-t can check they are healthy. Dugtrio massively annoys it, allowing it to do little damage against stall. It is super hard to get a DD against offensive builds.
Charizard-Mega-Y---> A
Undecided, leaning towards disagree. Charizard-Mega-Y is insanely strong with sun boosted fire blasts. Focus Blast and Solar Beam hit few things that resist fire. Roost allows you to heal up. Dugtrio traps many of its checks. This thing can come in on many mons like Scizor-Mega, Celesteela, Venusaur-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Ferrothorn etc. It can then proceed to blow back a mon.

Looks all good and solid, until you realize that it isnt as good in reality as it seems on paper. Looking into the playstyle by playstyle matchup will allow us to better understand.

Stall-> Okay Matchup, leaning towards bad, but beats some stall teams, and can pressure others.
Chansey walls this thing. Obviously, thats why you have dugtrio to trap it. Problem Solved! Not really. Dugtrio cannot trap both chansey and toxapex in the same game. It has to pick one. The obvious choice is chansey. Zard Y still has a very hard time breaking Toxapex. Teams possessing only one of these two will have a much harder game.

Balance-> Okay Matchup, leaning towards bad. It can beat many balance teams by annoying them with Sun boosted fire blasts. However, toxapex, mantine, sub coil zygarde, nihelego massively annoy you. You have to weaken zygarde and niheligo severely, with switching in multiple times. You also get pressured by rocks. Other balances, although rare, can also pressure this with rocks.

Bulky Offense--> Good Matchup. There is nothing really besides zygarde, niheligo, or garchomp that really wants to switch in. These mons aren't that common on BOes. It can still pressure with rocks.

Offense--> Okay matchup. You can come in on pokes like Ferrothorn, an unboosted steela, magearna, choice locked keld etc. and threaten them out. However, scarfers like garchomp and keldeo, however no t very reliable can switch in at least once, and pressuring zard with rocks + limited switchins helps. Niheligo and Sitrus Zygarde on offense are a really poor matchup. DD zygarde, volcanion, and even greninja can take a fire blast.

Hyper Offense-->> Poor Matchup
You barely can come in on nothing but free switches after a mon has died. Even then, there are still few mons that you can come in on after a mon has died. Some are QD non Normalium Z Pheromosa, Choice locked chomp, choice locked keld, and Mega Mawile. It is also not hard to RK on an HO. Some other mega like Mega Metagross, Mega Mawile, and even Mega Scizor and Mega Sharpedo would annoy hyper offenses far more.

 

[Charmflash]

I think the viability rankings are pretty solid right now but I'd like to make a case for Zapdos and the 2 best spikes user to rise. I would also like to nominate Mega-Blastoise for C-

B+ ---> A-
Zapdos is the best flying resist in OU right now. Celesteela (all variants of it) and Tornadus-Therian got nothin on this badboy... even with a defensive spread. It is a phenomenal answer to pinsir and skystrike user such as Gyarados, Salamence and Landorus-Therian (be wary of Rock-z) and a very solid user of Defog, although weak to rocks. Whether it is spreading paralysis with discharge, defogging on defensive threats such as Landorus-Therian, Ferrothorn, defogging on the offensive threats it is supposed to check, pivoting around with volt switch or toxic stalling with pressure, Zapdos is an incredible asset to a lot of BO, Balance and Stall builds and should be ranked higher.

A ---> A+
Spikes are the GOAT right now. They hit most of the meta, some part of it even harder than rocks do and you can stack them. The fact that Ferrothorn easily beats the one and only Tapu Fini via whip leech and or knock preventing it from defogging its rocks repeatedly is fantastic. The sheer amount of mons Ferrothorn can potentially check is absurd and ranges from Mega-Metagross to Ash-Greninja which is why I think it should be ranked higher.

A+ ---> S
I know that this got ranked down recently and I have read every single word of the reason why it was ranked down but I would like to say some things to try and make you reconsider. Spikes are sensational right now and the amount of time you spend figuring out whether it is ash or protean, hydro or ice beam (or heck even shuriken is good), sensory or spikes, low kick or hp fire gives it free time to set up spikes and slowly breaking you since your zapdos fini latios mega-scizor and skarmory cant defog on this. So even now, after we've adapted a lot to it, running Toxapex offense so we dont lose to the legendary GunkBeamFire Greninja (and Pheromosa, btw why cant Phero get a suspect test aready) it has an easy way to pressure us by setting up spikes that we cant defog.

Unranked ---> C-
Besides Pheromosa, spinners are really lackluster this gen. Excadrill got worse although still decent, Starmie is close to being unviable, Tentacruel is still underwhelming and heck even Forretress got worse. That being said Mega-Blastoise is still alright. It blanket checks a good amount of broken stuff such as Greninja,Metagross,Pheromosa.. , has a good matchup against common SR user such as Landorus-Therian, Heatran and Garchomp and cant get spinblocked by Mimikyu, Marowak, Sableye or Gengar. Mega-Blastoise has a good amount of coverage options combined with a useful ability and access to both counter and mirror coat. While it doesnt really excel at either it has just enough combined power and bulk to perform its role if used to its strengths. I realize that using this mon comes at the opportunity cost of not being able to use flat out better megas, however, that is the reason I am suggesting ranking it below its competition Starmie and Tentacruel even if its stronger than them in this generation (at least you get the consolation prize of having a good matchup against the big 3 megas lol)

replays

I would have a lot more replays but they are on my local computer idk if I can even upload them to showdown anymore if I didnt do it instantly. I will try to get more and better replays today/tomorrow that I can upload. In the meantime maybe my rmt can give some more information: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pure-hentai-a-bulky-offense-team-reqs-50-18.3595955/
- http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-548822945

 

[LeNorm]

I think the main problem with Blastoise is that its completely outclassed by Tapu Fini as an entry hazard remover, which is bulkier, has a much better defensive typing, doesn't take up a Mega slot (which is really valuable in the age of Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile) and even has Taunt + Natures Madness to break down bulkier pokemon making up for its lack of offensive presence. I don't really see any reason to use Mega Blastoise at all over tapu fini, and Tapu fini alone should be enough to keep it unranked.

Anyway, here are some nominations of my own,

Thundurus for B+

Thundurus @ Psychium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hidden Power fire

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 590-696 (164.3 - 193.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 387-456 (137.2 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 590-695 (146.4 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 388-460 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 432-509 (113 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 362-426 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 636-750 (147.5 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 443-522 (169.7 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

* The above calcs should speak for themselves. Shattered Psyche + HP fire Thundurus blows past every electric resist there is, including things like Tangrowth, Marowak-alola, and Tapu bulu, basically removing its own checks and counters by itself so it can continue sweeping.

* 125 special attack and 111 speed allow it to outpace things like Meta Metagross, Mega Pinsir, and Salamence and still hit insanely hard with Nasty Plot boosts under its belt:

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 443-522 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 470-553 (167.2 - 196.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

* Nasty plot isn't even its only set, as it can run things like thunder wave + three attacks to foil opposing setup attempts and even go Physical Flynium Z to discourage the use of Defog (thanks to Defiant) making it everything but a one trick pony separating it from things like Tapu koko and Xurkitree
*This leaves it with little to no reliable checks and counters as bulky grass and ground types and Alolan Marowak are steamed by psychium Z and Chansey is dead weight against physical flynium Z sets, which OHKO it with hammer arm after it uses knock off.

*Thundurus is almost always the pokemon you fall back on late game, whether it be to cripple setup sweepers with prankster thunder wave or to set up nasty plot and attempt a sweep of your own, Thundurus does it and it definitely doesn't deserve a rank as low as B.

Hippowdown to B-

* I don't see what changed so much from ORAS that made Hippowdown so much worse. Back when Lando was still S rank and TankChomp was A+, Hippowdown still maintained its high ranking, unlike today for some reason.

* It has plenty of niches over its Lando rival, chief of which is its pure ground typing meaning it can't be one shot be random Ice covarage such as Mega metagross's Ice punch or Tapu koko's HP ice (in fact, they don't even 2HKO), and access to reliable recovery make it significantly harder to wear down.

*Fantastic bulk and a great defensive typing allow Hippowodown to easily wall things like Mega Metagross, Landorus therian, Tapu koko, Nihelogo, Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Alolan Marowak, and Mega Pinsir.

*Access to other utilities such as stealth rock, Sand stream, and Whirlwind allow it fit onto teams with less trouble.

*Unlike most other walls such as Toxapex and Skarmory, Hippowdown is far from passive, as it can easily 2hko most of the things its walling like Mega zard X and koko, and can cripple the things it can't heavily damage with Toxic or just phaze them out.

Swift Swim Sweepers to C+

*I know this may sound outrage at first thought, but all-out rain has proven to be really, really underwhelming. Rain struggles to break through some of the best walls in OU, such as Kabutops struggling with with Skarmory and Kindra struggling with the blobs, and things like Ferrothorn and Tapu fini wall entire rain teams for days.

*Offense also doesn't worry about rain nearly as much as one would expect, as rain packs weaknesses to offensive mons as well such as Ash greninja, Scarf Keldeo, and Scarf Pheromosa, the biggest threat on their side being Mega Charizard Y.

*On paper, all-out rain seems to be really promising, but in practice, it falls apart to the point that people stopped using it altogether and made things like Specs Pelliper (Zamrock, lol) alongside with "Rain Abusers" such as Flynium Z Volcarona and Ash Greninja, as showcased below

Here is a nice replay of Zamrock using Specs Pelipper in Week 5 vs Nedor
*Replay from Collenel M

tldr:

Thundurus to B+

Hippowdown to B-

Swift swimmers to C+

Can we have some replays please, particularly the Thundurus? I like the idea of the Shattered Psyche set, but when a Z-move is Thundurus' only real answer to so many threats it seems a bit too inconsistent to me. I can imagine a lot of teams running two or three of the mons it needs a Z move to deal with, and so it having at best a one off use. The physical set you mention seems a bit gimmicky to me (I can't see why you'd run this over Flyium-Z Mence, other than to try to take advantage of Defiant, but this seems to niche for me), so I can't imagine people would be too worried about switching a Chansey in on Thundurus.

 

[Leo]

I think the main problem with Blastoise is that its completely outclassed by Tapu Fini as an entry hazard remover, which is bulkier, has a much better defensive typing, doesn't take up a Mega slot (which is really valuable in the age of Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile) and even has Taunt + Natures Madness to break down bulkier pokemon making up for its lack of offensive presence. I don't really see any reason to use Mega Blastoise at all over tapu fini, and Tapu fini alone should be enough to keep it unranked.

Anyway, here are some nominations of my own,

Thundurus for B+

Thundurus @ Psychium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Psychic
- Hidden Power fire

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 590-696 (164.3 - 193.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 387-456 (137.2 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth: 590-695 (146.4 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 388-460 (110.2 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 432-509 (113 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 362-426 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 636-750 (147.5 - 174%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 443-522 (169.7 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

* The above calcs should speak for themselves. Shattered Psyche + HP fire Thundurus blows past every electric resist there is, including things like Tangrowth, Marowak-alola, and Tapu bulu, basically removing its own checks and counters by itself so it can continue sweeping.

* 125 special attack and 111 speed allow it to outpace things like Meta Metagross, Mega Pinsir, and Salamence and still hit insanely hard with Nasty Plot boosts under its belt:

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Salamence: 443-522 (133.8 - 157.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Thundurus Shattered Psyche (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Koko: 470-553 (167.2 - 196.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

* Nasty plot isn't even its only set, as it can run things like thunder wave + three attacks to foil opposing setup attempts and even go Physical Flynium Z to discourage the use of Defog (thanks to Defiant) making it everything but a one trick pony separating it from things like Tapu koko and Xurkitree

*This leaves it with little to no reliable checks and counters as bulky grass and ground types and Alolan Marowak are steamed by psychium Z and Chansey is dead weight against physical flynium Z sets, which OHKO it with hammer arm after it uses knock off.

*Thundurus is almost always the pokemon you fall back on late game, whether it be to cripple setup sweepers with prankster thunder wave or to set up nasty plot and attempt a sweep of your own, Thundurus does it and it definitely doesn't deserve a rank as low as B.

Hippowdown to B-

* I don't see what changed so much from ORAS that made Hippowdown so much worse. Back when Lando was still S rank and TankChomp was A+, Hippowdown still maintained its high ranking, unlike today for some reason.

* It has plenty of niches over its Lando rival, chief of which is its pure ground typing meaning it can't be one shot be random Ice covarage such as Mega metagross's Ice punch or Tapu koko's HP ice (in fact, they don't even 2HKO), and access to reliable recovery make it significantly harder to wear down.

*Fantastic bulk and a great defensive typing allow Hippowodown to easily wall things like Mega Metagross, Landorus therian, Tapu koko, Nihelogo, Mega Charizard X, Mega Pinsir, Alolan Marowak, and Mega Pinsir.

*Access to other utilities such as stealth rock, Sand stream, and Whirlwind allow it fit onto teams with less trouble.

*Unlike most other walls such as Toxapex and Skarmory, Hippowdown is far from passive, as it can easily 2hko most of the things its walling like Mega zard X and koko, and can cripple the things it can't heavily damage with Toxic or just phaze them out.

Swift Swim Sweepers to C+

*I know this may sound outrage at first thought, but all-out rain has proven to be really, really underwhelming. Rain struggles to break through some of the best walls in OU, such as Kabutops struggling with with Skarmory and Kindra struggling with the blobs, and things like Ferrothorn and Tapu fini wall entire rain teams for days.

*Offense also doesn't worry about rain nearly as much as one would expect, as rain packs weaknesses to offensive mons as well such as Ash greninja, Scarf Keldeo, and Scarf Pheromosa, the biggest threat on their side being Mega Charizard Y.

*On paper, all-out rain seems to be really promising, but in practice, it falls apart to the point that people stopped using it altogether and made things like Specs Pelliper (Zamrock, lol) alongside with "Rain Abusers" such as Flynium Z Volcarona and Ash Greninja, as showcased below

Here is a nice replay of Zamrock using Specs Pelipper in Week 5 vs Nedor
*Replay from Collenel M

tldr:

Thundurus to B+

Hippowdown to B-

Swift swimmers to C+

Why not just run Hp-Flying and Focus Blast with Life Orb on that set? gets p much the same KOs at +2 but isn't a 1-time use z-move and doesn't use the z-move slot. It misses the KO on Mence and Landorus-T but you can use it several times during a game and still does a big chunk to them.

 

[Charmflash]

I think the main problem with Blastoise is that its completely outclassed by Tapu Fini as an entry hazard remover, which is bulkier, has a much better defensive typing, doesn't take up a Mega slot (which is really valuable in the age of Mega Metagross and Mega Mawile) and even has Taunt + Natures Madness to break down bulkier pokemon making up for its lack of offensive presence. I don't really see any reason to use Mega Blastoise at all over tapu fini, and Tapu fini alone should be enough to keep it unranked.

While you recognize correctly that Tapu Fini is a better dedicated hazard remover, it does not outclass Mega-Blastoise. The main difference is rapid spin vs defog, allowing you to use a spikes stacking strategy such as the one presented here. It also accomplishes other noteable tasks suchs as checking the likes of Mega-Metagross and Protean as well as Ash-Greninja and I think C- is a fair ranking taking the points I made previously into consideration.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Blastoise makes me think of greninja in respect that it'll run water stab(water pulse), dark pulse, and to avoid rough skin/rocky helmet problems it'd be best with ice beam, assuming it's an offensive spinner set cause while starmie is bad, it can heal off damage vs bulky things at least

Life Orb hydro pump out damages max SpA water pulse but blast can do more with dark pulse assume it's life orb Protean Greninja

Idk rocky helmet being on most teams with easier to repeat rock stickers in general just to me says please spin them off so I can stack it back up and rocky helmet toxic spikes Toxapex makes blastoise unable to ever not drag down its team by switching in and that's just to large of a cost for Your spinner/mega/wall breaker

Idk I think starmie might do a better job for once but harder to use(in before knock off)

I'm more interested in the team it's on and how niche it really is maybe it's a solid team, idk I've reached a ranking like that with shednija stall and I know I can't get away with it anymore cause of wacky lures and Z moves beating protect 50%

 

[Toshiro46]

I think the viability rankings are pretty solid right now but I'd like to make a case for Zapdos and the 2 best spikes user to rise. I would also like to nominate Mega-Blastoise for C-

B+ ---> A-
Zapdos is the best flying resist in OU right now. Celesteela (all variants of it) and Tornadus-Therian got nothin on this badboy... even with a defensive spread. It is a phenomenal answer to pinsir and skystrike user such as Gyarados, Salamence and Landorus-Therian (be wary of Rock-z) and a very solid user of Defog, although weak to rocks. Whether it is spreading paralysis with discharge, defogging on defensive threats such as Landorus-Therian, Ferrothorn, defogging on the offensive threats it is supposed to check, pivoting around with volt switch or toxic stalling with pressure, Zapdos is an incredible asset to a lot of BO, Balance and Stall builds and should be ranked higher.

A ---> A+
Spikes are the GOAT right now. They hit most of the meta, some part of it even harder than rocks do and you can stack them. The fact that Ferrothorn easily beats the one and only Tapu Fini via whip leech and or knock preventing it from defogging its rocks repeatedly is fantastic. The sheer amount of mons Ferrothorn can potentially check is absurd and ranges from Mega-Metagross to Ash-Greninja which is why I think it should be ranked higher.
[/hide]

I agree with Zapdos's rise. It checks a shit-ton of mons rn with its defensive set, can defog almost as well as fini (rocks-weak is its one downfall, but it gets immunity to other hazards which is huge), and has reliable recovery in roost. More over, base 125 SpA means its not just a sitting duck, and it gets discharge, which is huge with all the scarfers and speed demons running around. Finally, in conjunction with discharge, it has heat wave, and electric/fire coverage is really fucking good right now. But it's not a one trick pony either! It can run an offensive set as well with Roost, Heat wave, Tbolt, and most importantly HP Ice, which means it can hit the most notable things that Electric/Fire can't - Lando, Garchomp, and Zygarde.

I can't agree with Ferro's, though. Right now it's set up bait for quite a few mons, since more and more sets are forgoing Thunder-wave in favor of SR or other moves. Also, Plenty of pokes are carrying HP Fire right now to deal with MScizor and it as well, and in general Ferro is just super predictable. You know it has spikes, you know it has leech seed and powerwhip, after one turn you know it has either rocky helmet or leftovers, and you know it has either SR or protect or maybe t-wave. There's just not a lot of diversity to its sets, and I think that mons in A+ (bar Ash-Gren, maybe) all have at least some diversity in the sets they can run. It's in a good place among stuff like Toxapex, because they're both good at what they do but only do one thing.

 

[Leo]

Hp Flying is a really shitty move to run on any Thundurus set, it doesn't come even close to OHKOing Mega Vensaur, Amoongus, and ferrothorn, and in fact, it can't even 2KO Amoongus and AV Tangrowth for a restatement of how weak it is. Life orb wears down Thundurus down as much as hell, to point that similar pokemon such as Tapu koko don't even bother running it anymore.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 179-213 (44.3 - 52.7%) -- 20.3% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 213-252 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yeah, that's pretty mediocre.

Lmao so for your calcs you use +2 Psychic but for hp flying you use neutral and say its shit when it does ~50% ok I feel ya.

Actual calcs

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Amoonguss: 424-502 (98.3 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 232 HP / 80 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 398-468 (110.8 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 298-351 (114.1 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 359-424 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But yeah go ahead and waste your z-move on a Thundurus luling those Tangrwoth must be worth it. And you still don't explain what hp fire hits that Focus Blast doesn't besides not koing kyurem-B magnezone and Tyranitar.

Analysis lul

Hidden Power Flying is an option to beat Grass-types such as Mega Venusaur and Tangrowth while also doing good damage against Alolan Marowak.

e: I'm not saying HP-Fly should be the go-to option on NP Thund but it's definitely better than Psychic

 

[Martin]

Why do people feel the need to not only make noms theorymonning out of their arse (if you don't provide replays for discussion of niche sets like this--especially after blatantly ignoring someone asking you for them--you have no proof you aren't just pulling shit out of your arse), but to also then argue the toss, get snarky, and derail the thread over them? This thread should be used to discuss RELEVANT Pokemon backed up by a) actual real testing and b) based on ladder/tour success or inconsistency: not whatever cash set you thought up in the shower.

Nothing has changed for Thundurus to justify a rise; the meta is still just as harsh to it as before, it still faces very heavy competition from stuff like Tapu Koko for a team slot, it still has a hard time setting up in the meta, trends still go against it in general, and it still is an inconsistent Pokemon. That's all there is to it at this stage.

 

[readytolose]

Yes, Mega Blastoise fits onto hazard stacking teams looking for a Hazard remover, but you're still missing my point. Besides Tapu fini, Mega Blastoise finds itself outclassed in the area of Hazard Control by Mega Sableye which is the epitome of hazard stacking teams, and Tentacreul and Starmie (although niche) also both preform a similar role of bulky rapid spinner, and Tentcruel can even lay Toxic spikes to contribute to your Hazard Stacking point.

The main reason to use Blastoise is that it has a good offensive presence for a spinner, and that it can beat Ferrothorn. This makes it a better fit for a spinner on certain offensive teams cause it can beat down defensive cores, and spin without giving up too much momentum. Unlike Starmie it has good natural bulk which lets it usually take one hit from things, and it can beat down Mega Sableye, preventing it from spinblocking. The comparison to Mega Sableye seems pretty nonsensical to me as Sableye's a passive piece of shit and can only block hazards by switching into them. Besides that, they have a completely different type and offensive presence. Blastoise has better matchups against hazard leads too, cause common suicide leads like Excadrill and Azelf can beat Sableye but can't prevent Blastoise from removing hazards.

With all that said, I'm not sure I can abide by a Blastoise ranking if only the fact that it struggles with the popular bulky Waters, mostly Tapu Fini who beat Blastoise 1v1. In oras the biggest threat Blastoise had to worry about was Azumarill, which it could burn anyways, while all the other bulky Water types were chunked by Blastoise's coverage as they came in. But now it turns over momentum to Tapu Fini which is a pretty bad thing to do on the offensive builds Blastoise is used on. It can't keep hazards up while removing them anymore. Toxapex too, which is really common now, can be broken by Dark Pulse flinches but it's a thorn in Blastoise's side and switches in easily. The new generation adds Mantine as well, which completely walls Blastoise. The usual bulky Grass types are more troublesome, with AV Tangrowth being popular and the fact that Blastoise cannot really address Tapu Bulu either.

edit (didn't feel like double posting for this): Even if Blastoise can chunk Tapu Fini with HP Electric that doesn't prevent it from coming in, taking ~37 from HP Electric while Defogging and resetting the hazards your team has spent time stacking. Tapu Fini's presence is just so inimical to Blastoise, as it can weaken Blastoise to the point that it can't really Spin anymore, freeing up the other team's hazard setter to get up rocks or whatever. Mirror Coat is the same but worse, it doesn't prevent Tapu Fini from Defogging and it requires Blastoise take a bunch of damage.

Hp Flying is a really shitty move to run on any Thundurus set, it doesn't come even close to OHKOing Mega Vensaur, Amoongus, and ferrothorn, and in fact, it can't even 2KO Amoongus and AV Tangrowth for a restatement of how weak it is. Life orb wears down Thundurus down as much as hell, to point that similar pokemon such as Tapu koko don't even bother running it anymore.

Not really sure what you're saying here, because STAB HP Flying has exactly the same base power as Psychic. And you would never use it against Ferrothorn, you would use Focus Blast. Life Orb is a bummer but Tapu Koko doesn't use it because it's always pivoting in and out of battle. That's not really Thundurus' niche. If I wanted to use a Z-Move to lure Grass types, I would use the Z-Fly set because it can actually get OHKOs without needing to boost.

Alolan Muk to C-

* Alolan Muk had once secured itself a solid niche in OU as a pursuit trapper to trap numerous Psychic types such as Tapu lele and Hoopa Unbound, but now nearly every single Psychic type has really fallen of in usage as well as viabilty, which really hurt Alolan Muk's Viability.
*With the introduction of Mega Mawile and the introduction of Mega Mawile's "checks" such as Garchomp and Landorus therian, Alolan Muk's like is just really miserable.
*The only good Metagame trend it received was the rise of specs gengar, but even that is just one 'mon and it still struggles a little in OU because of the surge of Mega Mawile and the ground types that check it
*It also faces severe competition as a pursuit trapper with Tyranitar and weavile, both of which are significantly more powerful and preform other roles as well whilst Alolan Muk is locked onto being a pure Pursuit Trapper

This is really harsh, Alolan Muk is already much more consistent than most of the C+ rank. If anything the latest metagame trends are convincing me that it should stay right where it is, rather than move up. Even with Mega Mawile and Ground types, Gengar is still a huge threat and Alolan Muk is one of the few things that can switch in on it. Weavile and Tyranitar are absolutely not switch-ins, and can usually only trap Gengar after it kills something. Non-choiced Gengar is still a thing too and it Focus Blasts Tyranitar out of existence unless its Scarf. Even with Tapu Lele and Psychic types on the decline, they're still present in the metagame. Lets not forget that Alolan Muk basically blanket checks a bunch of special attackers, checking Tapu Koko, Volcarona, and especially Protean Greninja.

edit: Personally I can't comment much on the higher ranks because I feel like they're much more accurate than the lower ranks. I can't think of a single thing I want changed between S and B ranks. The lower ranks could probably be fleshed out and restructured a lot more, however, but I'm not about to post about it cause there seems to be such a negative stigma about discussing low-ranked mons. The problem isn't that these low-ranked mons are being discussed, it's that people are making bad arguments not backed up with experience. Not saying any names.

 

[Gary]

If you want argue about stupid sets, then go here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-sets-viability-rankings.3592113/

Anyway, time for some arguments that actually make sense.

You are too much. Someone disagrees with you and tries to explain why you're wrong and instead you act like they're the ones that are fucked up? Yeah, alright. None of your arguments ever make sense because it's all theorymon bullshit and instead of trying to defend yourself intelligently you just play victim and treat anyone that doesn't agree with you like an idiot, which is pretty ironic if you ask me. All of your Thundurus calcs are incredibly bias because you purposely calc Psychic at +2, while the HP Flying ones are unboosted, even though they would yield the same results if cacled correctly. You're never going to improve if you just refuse to listen to anyone and ignore people that try to help you. You're just going to keep getting into trouble.

Next time you get a chance to post in here, hopefully you'll take what I said to heart, and maybe you'll eventually begin to realize that you're not always right.

 

[Charmflash]

The main reason to use Blastoise is that it has a good offensive presence for a spinner, and that it can beat Ferrothorn. This makes it a better fit for a spinner on certain offensive teams cause it can beat down defensive cores, and spin without giving up too much momentum. Unlike Starmie it has good natural bulk which lets it usually take one hit from things, and it can beat down Mega Sableye, preventing it from spinblocking. The comparison to Mega Sableye seems pretty nonsensical to me as Sableye's a passive piece of shit and can only block hazards by switching into them. Besides that, they have a completely different type and offensive presence. Blastoise has better matchups against hazard leads too, cause common suicide leads like Excadrill and Azelf can beat Sableye but can't prevent Blastoise from removing hazards.

With all that said, I'm not sure I can abide by a Blastoise ranking if only the fact that it struggles with the popular bulky Waters, mostly Tapu Fini who beat Blastoise 1v1. In oras the biggest threat Blastoise had to worry about was Azumarill, which it could burn anyways, while all the other bulky Water types were chunked by Blastoise's coverage as they came in. But now it turns over momentum to Tapu Fini which is a pretty bad thing to do on the offensive builds Blastoise is used on. It can't keep hazards up while removing them anymore. Toxapex too, which is really common now, can be broken by Dark Pulse flinches. The new generation adds Mantine as well, which completely walls Blastoise. The usual bulky Grass types are more troublesome, with AV Tangrowth being popular and the fact that Blastoise cannot really address Tapu Bulu either.

Blastoise can damage Tapu Fini permanently with well placed HP electric which is a very cool choice if you need to pressure opposing defogger. It can also blow it back with mirror coat since nature's madness is a special attack. AV tangrowth is 2hko'd by ice beam with a bit of prior damage and tapu bulu gets obliterated by ice beam. I am aware that 4mss is going to be a thing, but you can choose what mons are necessary to beat and I really hope everybody reads my previous posts on this thread about Mega-Blastoise since they have more relevant information than this one.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Pheromosa is now being suspect tested, and it's basically a 99.9% chance that it'll get banned. So how do you guys think the metagame will change with Pheromosa gone? I see that most Pokémon don't really need to run Choice Scarf sets a lot just so it could try to outspeed Pheromosa. The Tapus would get more usage again since they don't have to worry about taking a Poison Jab. Buzzwole may get more usage now as an offensive Bug/Fighting game since unfortunately Pheromosa outdoes it which is a shame :(. Or in actuality, Mega Beedrill's usage would probably skyrocket. Buzzwole may compete with Mega Heracross when that gets released but that's for another time. So how do you guys think with the metagame changing??

 

[Toshiro46]

Pheromosa is now being suspect tested, and it's basically a 99.9% chance that it'll get banned. So how do you guys think the metagame will change with Pheromosa gone? I see that most Pokémon don't really need to run Choice Scarf sets a lot just so it could try to outspeed Pheromosa. The Tapus would get more usage again since they don't have to worry about taking a Poison Jab. Buzzwole may get more usage now as an offensive Bug/Fighting game since unfortunately Pheromosa outdoes it which is a shame :(. It may compete with Mega Heracross when that gets released but that's for another time. So how do you guys think with the metagame changing??

I think you're better off in the metagame discussion thread. This is for ranking purposes.

Buzzwole is absolutely terrible, and should probably go straight to C or C-. It got barely and SPL usage at first, lost every time, and then people stopped using it entirely. It's not really good at anything, and it's a very unreliable and shitty "wall." I've yet to see a good SM team with Buzzwole. It's a shit scarfer because it's slow and superpower sucks, and it has horrible STAB (and weak options) for choice band. it's a bad defensive pivot because it's weak to psychic, flying, fire, fairy, and gets annihilated by pretty much any special attack, etc. It's honestly just an awful pokemon in the metagame right now, I can't think of a compelling reason to use it. It does not wall Pheromosa at all, I guess it walls Zygarde, but then coil fucks it over. It's just really, really, bad. I think the best reason for it to drop is its complete lack of usage in SPL, and it's 0% winrate. Maybe I'm being too hard on it and someone can justify why to use Buzzwole, but I really can't think of a reason. Looking at ranks like B- and C+ there are niches for those mons, I've seen them used on good teams, teams that won SPL games and peaked the ladder. Buzzwole doesn't have that going for it, I don't think it has a place in the metagame at all. I think people honestly forgot about Buzzwole, nobody talks about it yet somehow it's still floating in B...

Anyway, to make this post relevant and connect it with the prior comment, I second the nomination for Buzzwole to move down. As an a pure offensive physical Bug/Fighting type, he's basically completely outclassed by pheromosa, as she has higher speed and only 2 points less attack; This leaves him to the role of bulky offensive, but honestly there's a lot of better options for that. If you're looking for Beast Boost, Kartana has 50 points higher attack and 30 points higher speed with only 8 points less in defense (admittedly, the decreased HP hurts). Fucking Megagross statistically (lol HP) completely outclasses it, and has the same coverage it does but better STAB and a more immediately useful Ability. It's also not completely walled by basically all fairy *and* flying types like Buzzwole is, and has a much better defensive typing. Garchomp exists and doesn't have ass SpD or Speed, and there's still bulky CharX, Alowak, Landorus, Gyarados, and even fucking Mamoswine that can do bulky wallbreaker better than Buzzwole. Fuck, SubCoil Zygarde exists too! This mon is basically like Beedrill in that there's just no reason to use it over other, better mons, no matter what you're doing with it.

 

[UltraBallz]

I still think fast scarfers will be important seeing as stuff like volcarona, gyarados, and to a lesser extent salamence still exist and you want ways to deal with those threats after +1 speed (and none of those things were outspeeding mosa after a speed boost or quiver dance anyways). I think one thing you may see is less of a need for priority on things like metagross. Bullet punch became fairly common pretty much entirely as a way for more offensive teams to kill mosa. Now that thing will be even more busted with the ability to always run an extra coverage move. I don't think the buzzwole argument is too relevant because despite sharing the same typing they fill very different roles since buzzwole has very poor speed. Possibly less usage for Toxapex though, since that was the best switch in to pheromosa That being said Pex still walls everything haha.

Edit: To make this more relevant to the thread I also agree with the Buzzwole argument. There are a lot better wallbreakers to use in the tier that either hit harder, are faster, or have better coverage. I haven't seen a Buzzwole in forever and while that isn't an argument as to why it should drop it does show how it is hard to fit on a team because there is usually something better to use that would fufill a similar role.

 

[Duck Chris]

Wanted to voice support for Zapdos up to A-. As others have said discharge is great rn, and zapdos is a top tier defogger and check to birds.

However zapdos also has a great new niche in some more offensive sets. 3 attacks plus roost or agility, maybe with z move or life orb, is sick rn. Out speeds phero, doesn't get stopped by zygarde or Metagross, and also deals with ferro and celesteela. Also a great choice for to combat the rise of scizor

Like koko but better bulk and coverage in exchange for less immediate speed

Edit: I realize this post sound kinda nooby but support for 3 attacks zapdos has been voiced elsewhere (creative sets thread) and I would also encourage users to check the top ranks and pick stuff that switches in easily to thunderbolt/discharge/heat wave/hidden power ice that isn't chansey

 

[Scribble]

I'd like to discuss something touched upon in the past, but I feel hasn't gone into enough depth. And that is Tangrowth to A+.

Tangrowth is an insanely good mon in the meta, particularly its AV set. It has insane natural physical bulk with 100/125 stats + Regenerator. Its base 50 Sp. Def is bad, but its high HP stat + AV compensates for it and makes this thing fat on both sides of the spectrum. Tangrowth is arguably the best pivot in the tier. It isn't passive, either. It has good coverage and good 100/110 offenses, with Giga Drain/Leaf Storm/Earthquake/Rock Slide/HP Ice/HP Fire/Sludge Bomb. It also has utility moves like Knock Off/Leech Seed/Sleep Powder (granted the last two are incompatible with AV). Its balanced stats, ability, and movepool allow Tangrowth to be so extremely splashable, even more so than some threats in A+ like Tapu Lele.

Tangrowth's pivoting abilities allow it to be a blanket check for so many top tier mons. It can switch into Mega Metagross (Ice Punch does a bit over 50 to AV set), Tapu Koko, Ash Greninja, Zygarde, etc. and can scout for coverage moves. Its amazing Regenerator ability gives it a form of recovery and the ability to check mons multiple times throughout the match. Its skills are very valuable in the current meta (Possibly even more if Pheromosa goes. EDIT: This is a sidenote, not an argument for Tangrowth to rise.), and teams don't really lose anything from throwing on Tangrowth. When teambuilding, I find myself just throwing on AV Tangrowth to serve as my pivot/blanket check to half the meta.

I'm clearly not the only one who does this, as Tangrowth has made quite a splash in SPL. It's ranked Number 7 of the overall usage at 21.11%, and its win rate is 52.63%, which is the second highest of the other 9 mons in the Top 10 most used SPL mons. Second only to Pheromosa, a suspect test worthy mon. Those are some pretty impressive stats.

Tangrowth to me just seems better than a lot of the mons in A. It's slow, sure, and it isn't the most threatening thing, but it's not completely passive like its Regenerator Pivot Competitor of Toxapex. It can eat so many hits, and you barely have to predict when using this mon either. Because of Regenerator, you have a safety net if you get a play wrong. The low risk - high reward factor of this mon in my opinion clearly fits the criteria of A+.

 

[Gary]

Yeah guys just a reminder, this isn't the place to discuss potential future metagames, or base our rankings off of them, regardless of how sure we are that Phero might be banned.

 

[MelinCantrit34]

This picture will haunt you in your dreams forever

Well in all seriousness I'm nominating Uxie from Unranked to C- or C. Even though Uxie has absolutely nothing good nor interesting to offer to almost any playstyle, it has a really strong niche as a Trick room setter so I think it should be ranked. Its main competition as a Trick room setter with rock support are Bronzong and Necrozma, but I would say that Uxie is as good if not better than both. Even though Necrozma thanks to Prism Armor can most of the time set Trick room safely as very little stuff can 1HKO, the problem is it can't learn any suicide moves, so most of the time it will just sit there, wasting your Trick room for about 2 or 3 turns before it dies and you get the chance to get your abuser in. On the other hand you have Bronzong, who has a better defensive typing and learns Explosion, but the thing with Bronzong is that its bulk of 67/116/116 sometimes its a little underwhelming as some threats are able 1hko (mainly Hoopa-U and Ash Greninja) and it can't really afford to carry any damage reducing berrys as Mental Herb is almost mandatory to run because Taunt is a huge threat for Trick room teams.

So, why exactly is Uxie better you may ask? Well, because it learns both Magic Coat and Memento. Magic coat is great because it allows it to avoid Taunt and carry a damage reducing berry at the same time, thing that combined with its great bulk of 75/130/130 leaves a very small number of Pokemon able to 1HKO, so it will be able to set up Trick room safely almost every time. And also Memento is extremely useful as it gives Uxie the ability to bring an abuser safely and make the most of your turns of Trick room.

Here are some calcs:

Hide

252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Uxie: 296-350 (83.8 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 64 Def Colbur Berry Uxie: 237-280 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Colbur Berry Uxie: 165-195 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Colbur Berry Uxie: 138-163 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Uxie: 189-223 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The only 2 relevant things that are able to 1HKO it are:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pheromosa Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Uxie: 314-372 (88.9 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Gengar Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 196+ SpD Uxie: 326-386 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

And even those aren't guaranteed 1hko's, so most of the time you will be able to set up Trick room safely.

And here are the required replays:

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551913178 Here at the begining my opponent made very dumb mistake but later in the game Uxie completely invalidated Tapu Fini with Magic Coat, showing of how useful it can be.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-551925476 And here you can see how good Memento + Magic Coat can be.

Well that's all, if you see any grammar errors or typos it's because I'm not a native speaker so sorry for that.

 

[vso]

I support the rise of Tangrowth --> A+

Having a lot of usage in SPL, Tangrowth has well deserved A+ for quite some time now. Possessing excellent ability in Regenerator in tandem with an great stats allow Tangrowth to be a really prominent wall..Access to knock off, giga drain, leech seed, sleep powder, earthquake, rock slide, sludge bomb and many other options can make it do various defensive rolls. There are two main sets in Assault Vest and Physically Defensive.

The Assault Vest set checks common Pokemon like Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Zygarde, Keldeo, Greninja Ash, Scarf Garchom[ and Magearna. It also checks other Pokemon like Kingdra, Alolomola, Thundurus, Manaphy, Rotom- Wash etc. This ability prevents it from being dead weight in any matchup.It can work super well on Balances, Bulky Offenses, and Offenses. It can be run with Toxapex and Mega Scizor. It is also suprisingly hard to switch into. It can annoy Toxapex, Marowak-Alola, Clefable etc. with knock off. It can deal decent damage to Mega Metagross,Heatran, Mega Charizard X(Post Mega) etc. with Earthquake and destroy Heatran with it.It can destory Charizard-Mega-Y and Volcarona with Knock Off.

The Physically Defensive set allows it to take on different Pokemon like Mega Metagross, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Landorus-T, Kabutops, Garchomp, Excadrill, Gyarados-Mega, Sharpedo-Mega etc. it has similar perks. It also spreads Sleep and then Leech Seeds( if it has it) its switchins.

Comparing it with other A+ ranked Pokemon, there is only one other wall, Celesteela.AV Tangrowth is extremely comparable to Spdef Celesteela. It doesn't rely on leech seed and can threaten in switch ins.

 

[fightnugget]

I don't think Tangrowth should rise. I don't use it so I only speak from the experience of facing it and theorymonning, but offensively it's pretty nonthreatening. Grass is not a great STAB and if you don't invest in its offensive stats, which I'm assuming most people don't, its 2x se coverage isn't going to have a lot of oomph.

Defensively it obviously depends on the set, but AV Tang is 2HKOed by mega Gross's mash after sr, Greninjas gunk shot, leles psychic, max atk garchomps outrage after sr.

The phys def set turns some of those 2hkos into 3hkos but then leaves it vulnerable due to its low sp def. regenerator alleviates this a lot and it does have leech seed and sleep powder, but it's weak and doesn't have hazards or hazard removal or good boosting options so I don't know how much it does for a team other than take hits and scout the opponent.

A lot of the offensive mons ranked above and alongside it have ways to break through it depending on set except like dugtrio, zygarde, and keldeo.

I think it should drop tbh.