SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mark Three

Status
Not open for further replies.
Alolan Muk: B to B+
With all of the new special attackers in the tier, Alolan-Muk's assault vest set has been picking up traction. It is probably one of the best counters to mega gardevoir and also checks Mega Manetric well with EQ. It can deal with Mega Latias extremely well too. It can switch in any psychic attack and destroy them with knock off. Mega Latias almost always loses to Muk because of pursuit too making it a great check and a great Pokemon to have right now.

Infernape: A to A-
Even when Jirachi was still in the tier, I thought A rank was overselling infernape a bit, and now that Jirachi, the main reason it rose has left, I think it's time for a drop. Infernape was a great check to Z-Celebrate Jirachi, especially with its choice scarf set. Now that it's gone though, it lost that niche. It's still a good Pokemon in UU, but it struggles against bulkier Pokemon, and as the meta continues to get bulkier, Infernape struggles to adapt. It can't do much to Rotom-W either, and can blow it away with a Hydro Pump. It is also very predictable Movewise and can easily be switched into.
 
Infernape: A to A-
Even when Jirachi was still in the tier, I thought A rank was overselling infernape a bit, and now that Jirachi, the main reason it rose has left, I think it's time for a drop. Infernape was a great check to Z-Celebrate Jirachi, especially with its choice scarf set. Now that it's gone though, it lost that niche. It's still a good Pokemon in UU, but it struggles against bulkier Pokemon, and as the meta continues to get bulkier, Infernape struggles to adapt. It can't do much to Rotom-W either, and can blow it away with a Hydro Pump. It is also very predictable Movewise and can easily be switched into.
I vehemently disagree. Infernape remains the best scarfer in the tier and revenge kills prominent threats easily (think Mamoswine, Weavile, Scizor). Infernape is most certainly not predictable, being able to run many viable sets with varying coverage on the more prominent set (scarf lol). Sure, Rachi leaving hurts nape's viability slightly, but with it still offensively checking so many pertinent threats I see no reason to drop.
 

kokoloko

what matters is our plan!
is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
So I have a suggestion...

As someone who’s been out of the game for a long while I come back to this completely different meta than when I last played it thinking “hmm I should check out the VR, that should give me a good idea of what’s good, right?” Well, sort of. I look through the ranks and it tells me where each pokemon stands relative to the rest of the tier, but a crucial piece of information is missing and that’s the “why”. I would like to at least have an idea of what makes each pokemon good/what it’s niche is/what it usually runs/what it checks, which brings me to the suggestion:

Why don’t you add a little blurb of info either as a link on each Pokemon’s name, or in hide tags underneath. I’m sure new and returning players (the ones who need this thread the most tbh) would be grateful and it would give VR more of a purpose as opposed to just being a list.

Before anyone says “check out the analysis”... most new players don’t have a clue where to find those... plus those go into a bit too much detail about specific sets rather than just a quick overview. If writing shit is too much work then sure, but I would still make each pokemon’s name a link to its analysis at the very least. Also those analyses are way outdated more often than not if shit is still the same as when I left...

Just a thought :)
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
So I have a suggestion...

As someone who’s been out of the game for a long while I come back to this completely different meta than when I last played it thinking “hmm I should check out the VR, that should give me a good idea of what’s good, right?” Well, sort of. I look through the ranks and it tells me where each pokemon stands relative to the rest of the tier, but a crucial piece of information is missing and that’s the “why”. I would like to at least have an idea of what makes each pokemon good/what it’s niche is/what it usually runs/what it checks, which brings me to the suggestion:

Why don’t you add a little blurb of info either as a link on each Pokemon’s name, or in hide tags underneath. I’m sure new and returning players (the ones who need this thread the most tbh) would be grateful and it would give VR more of a purpose as opposed to just being a list.

Before anyone says “check out the analysis”... most new players don’t have a clue where to find those... plus those go into a bit too much detail about specific sets rather than just a quick overview. If writing shit is too much work then sure, but I would still make each pokemon’s name a link to its analysis at the very least. Also those analyses are way outdated more often than not if shit is still the same as when I left...

Just a thought :)
> historically has hated pokemonisfun
> provides suggestion that gives pokemonisfun more work

I approve.

Also, Celebi to B+. With Amoonguss becoming a very good pick relative to the new drops, the opportunity cost to use another Grass-type like Celebi on the team increases. It also doesn't synergize with popular VoltTurn cores because of weakness stacking.
 
Also, Celebi to B+. With Amoonguss becoming a very good pick relative to the new drops, the opportunity cost to use another Grass-type like Celebi on the team increases. It also doesn't synergize with popular VoltTurn cores because of weakness stacking.
I agree. Either an offensive or defensive variant, currently there are mon in the tier that work best in that same performance. Also, pokemon with weakness x4 to U-turn and that receives much damage of pokémon with Pursuit is not what is generally needed when looking for defensive mons. Even the particularity of taking status moves is best served by Starmie. It is true however that in very specific teams Celebi can fulfill efficiently, but otherwise the drop to B + would be justified.
 
Update for September 24 to September 30

Jirachi was unranked because it was banned.

This is a very slightly smaller than average update which I don't see as a problem. Again, don't feel the need to post for postings sake. These will be done weekly in any case. Last time I didn't update the thread for the Heracross Mega / Gallade Mega suspect and a few people told me they preferred to keep having updates, so the VR team will do that during the Weavile test (also the metagame is clarifying now anyways).

As usual, feel free to discuss if your nomination was declined or not mentioned with new evidence and you feel strongly.

The next update will also include 1-2 sentence descriptions for all the Pokemon in B- to S rank. You can post thoughts on that (for example, maybe you found out that Nasty Plot Infernape is a great role for Infernape and better than the standard Scarf Infernape).

Rises
Klefki A --> A+

Spikes offense is now almost synonymous with Klefki offense. Besides the easy Spikes support, there are two main reasons for the rise. Firstly, Klefki’s defensive utility is highly appreciated in a tier with Latias, Mega Latias and Weavile as top threats, while Prankster Thunder Wave is a useful fail safe for offensive teams. Secondly, Spikes offense is evolving to abuse Ghost types more often, to make hazards even more deadly and the archetype that much more effective.

Hydreigon A- --> A

It was generally agreed that this rise is warranted for its nice role on Volt-Turn and multitude of resistances. However, Hydreigon is badly struggling with prominent Fairies as noted by Graecus in this post, so its rise to A is tenuous.

Swampert A- --> A

Swampert’s role on bulky offense is more appreciated than ever because of its reliability in setting up hazards and checking most of the tier with Roar. Lack of recovery means it will be unable to dominate, but it certainly can stop other Pokemon from dominating it’s team.

Alomomola B --> B+

Alomomola offense has risen over the past several weeks, particularly after the drops when Scizor became even more prominent and Eject Button Alomomola helped trap it with Magneton. Being a solid Weavile and CB Scizor counter is great, especially as Alomomola keeps momentum with Regenerator.

Raikou C+ --> B-

A correction to Raikou’s previous large drop, the most notable trait Raikou has is being able to beat most Electric counters with the correct move, usually a Z move, as noted by Venoxio and others here. It also still fits on Volt-Turn, even if it has huge competition now.

Arcanine D --> C-

Arcanine counters several top tier threats like Weavile, Scizor, and Altaria Mega. However, it requires Defog or Rapid Spin support to be able to reliably counter threats and importantly Arcanine fails against most other threats it does not completely counter, such as Latias and Hydreigon.

Drops
Hippowdown A- --> B+

The drop reflects the bad matchup with Rotom Wash and inability to wall top tier threats in general, particularly with Z moves such as All Out Pummeling Cobalion. It does counter Manectric Mega nicely however and still has a solid role in the metagame with its bulk and utility.

Steelix (Mega) B+ --> B

Similar to Hippowdon, except Steelix Mega has a better typing to deal with threats like Weavile and Latias in exchange for no recovery and a few notable weaknesses.

Slowbro B+ --> B

An unfortunate victim to Volt-Turn and Spikes offense, Slowbro has a very difficult time reliably walling any important threat right now bar Cobalion. It also faces stiff competition from Alomomola which has fewer weaknesses, Wish, and better bulk overall. Slowbro is still useful, just less so.

Slowking B- --> C-

Slowking on the other hand is not very useful at all, hardly able to wall anything notable without using Assault Vest, which costs utility moves. It is also more easily Pursuit trapped due to the slightly below average defense for a wall. If the trend to Volt-Turn and Spikes continue, Slowking will lose viability.

Shuckle C+ --> C-

Almost completely inferior to Smeargle, which is faster and has access to Spore. It remains ranked for now as it has more bulk which can occasionally help, but will be unranked soon if it does not find a bigger niche.

Unranked
Tsareena

It was a long time coming, the rise of Ghosts with Klefki is the nail in the coffin.

Persian-Alola

Essentially never seen anymore in the metagame, if it gets a surge for whatever reason, this can be reconsidered. But for now, it’s irrelevant.

Omastar

One of the biggest losers from Aurora Veil’s departure is this Shell Smash sweeper. It is now much harder to set up and survive priority moves and as it was barely viable before, a drop is worthy.

Declined Discussion Points and Nominations
Gliscor remains A+ (nominated lower)

Its main role as a stall breaker with either Taunt and/or Swords Dance remains while it is effective as ever in its secondary role as a Stealth Rock user.
Zygarde 10% remains B+ (nominated lower)

Explained mainly in this post, Zygarde 10% is a strong enough cleaner to be in B+.
Rotom Cut remains C (nominated higher)

Competition with Rotom Wash is incredibly high and its much lowered defensive utility means it rarely is an optimal choice.

Poliwrath remains unranked (nominated C)
Yes it counters Weavile but there are more viable Pokemon that do so such as Suicune and Alomomola. More analysis is needed on other roles if this soggy froggy is to be ranked.

Discussion Points
Sharpedo (Mega) A+ --> S

Sharpedo Mega remains a discussion point as there was only one post on it. It remains one of, if not the, biggest beneficiary of the rise of Spikes offense. It also outspeeds and OHKOs notable Pokemon that sound like checks such as Hydreigon and offensive Rotom formes with just Stealth Rock. Rather one dimensional and lacks defensive utility, although it can take most priority moves.

Sceptile (Mega) B+ --> A-

Sets with Earthquake, particularly Swords Dance, have seen an increase in usage recently. This helps lure one of the top Pokemon, Klefki, while giving Sceptile Mega surprisingly great stall breaking chances as well as it beats Blissey and every bulky water who tries to counter. These sets are usually more weak to Scizor with the lack of HP Fire though and lack power before a boost.

Nihilego B- --> B+

Nihilego is fairly underexplored and its most used sets, hazard setting, are obviously not as threatening as the Choice Specs set.

Heracross B+ --> A-

A discussion point before the drops, Heracross’ incredible power with Flame Orb remains. Does this justify a rise? Or does it’s middling stats, bar attack, prove too much of a set back?

Celebi A- --> B+

Celebi should be considered for a drop because of fairly bad match ups with many top offensive Pokemon like Infernape, Hydreigon, Latias, and Scizor. However, its most threatening set, Nasty Plot, can threaten these Pokemon one way or another, particularly with Z moves. It can also break stall teams and balance, especially if they do not use Toxic Blissey.
 
Last edited:
Alright, about the discussion points:

Celebi should go down. Grass/Psychic isn't good in a meta where all of its weakness are extremely common. VoltTurn almost completely destroys this, and spikes isn't the best for it either. I've built many a team where I tried to fit this on but found that it exacerbated the weaknesses to top tier archetypes just way too much to be worth it. Nasty Plot is good but there are better stall breakers out there like gliscor and Latias-Mega. It's not an A- mon anymore, even a drop to B could be worth it.

Nihilego could see a rise, yes, but to B not B+. Specs is a great breaker that is taking advantage of the rising Fairy types in this meta, but it's worth noting that it still has a pretty poor matchup vs most VoltTurn teams from what I've found. Toxic Spikes isn't what it is in OU but it's still worth it.

I'm not certain about any of the other noms as I speak so I'll go over those later, if at all because IRL is taking its toll.
 
Alright gonna make a good few noms based partially on the live discussion and partially just my own thoughts.

B --> C+: Klefki's increased popularity, even on HO teams, has done nothing but harm Froslass's niche in the tier. It still has the benefits of support moves like Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond, but 9/10 times Klefki's who you'd rather go with if you want spikes.

B+ --> B / B-: Volcanion's middling speed tier and weakness to stealth rock, combined with its inability to really combat the many dragons of the tier (Now including Mega Latias!) and the introduction of two fresh Electrics into the tier, are really not doing Volcanion any favors. In addition, Volcanion is being pressured moreso than ever to run its Grassium Z set over its Specs set due to the everpresence of Rotom-Wash, which is harmful for it because it makes Grassium Z more predictable overall, and also without specs Volcanion's damage output is honestly somewhat lacking for a slow rocks-weak wallbreaker. It's also more pressured to run timid now due to defensive Rotom-Wash running 132 speed commonly which further cuts back on its breaking power. Overall, Volcanion's opportunity cost to use is much higher now than it was before shifts and it's not really deserving of B+ anymore.

A --> A-: This mon is struggling a bit to actually check the Psychic types of tier while also having adequate answers to the rest of the meta. Mega Latias avoids the guaranteed 2hko from Knock Off, so the standard Stone Edge variety of Krookodile will often leave a team completely open to CM+Surf or Ice Beam Mega Latias. It can run Crunch to alleviate this, but this in turn prevents Krookodile from accurately checking Mega Aerodactyl and causes it to be walled by Togekiss. In addition, the increased prevalence of Scarf Infernape, Weavile, and Rotom-Wash aren't doing Krookodile any favors. While Krook is overall still nice, with many options such as Stealth Rock and Choice Band along with its primary set of Scarf, it's definitely taken a hit from the recent meta trends.

B- --> C: Nidoqueen isn't faring too well right now. For a good while now, Nidoqueen has been stuck with only viably being able to run defensive sets due to Nidoking's complete outclassing of any offensive variety of Nidoqueen. However, defensively, it's a much less solid Fairy resist than it was pre-shifts due to the introduction of Mega Gardevoir, and Rotom-Wash brings into question its ability to be an Electric check, so defensive sets have a lot less of a niche than before. If I wanted a bulky Ground-type Stealth Rock setter, I would go for Swampert 95% of the time, and if I wanted a Toxic Spikes setter, I'd go for Tentacruel. This thing has really lost a lot of its niches over time and there's honestly not much justification to use this over Nidoking or a different hazard setter at the moment.

B+ --> A-: This mon really annoys Voltturn (Though, of course, it's not a complete counter to it) with HP Fire sets while also having pretty potent Swords Dance sweeper potential. Rotom-Wash gives this thing a lot more reason to be put on teams, and it's overall pretty solid versus offense. I'm all for this rising to A-.

B- --> B (Honestly i think B+ might be too high): Nihilego has definitely benefitted from the departure of Jirachi, which pretty handily walled most of Nihilego's sets. Choice Specs is incredibly potent given the right matchup, and makes for an overall nice cleaner and decent wallbreaker with good coverage options in HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Grass Knot. I've also occasionally seen some Z-move stealth rock sets like Z-Thunder, although those are moderately untested at the moment and I'm not entirely sure if they're too fantastic. Suicide Lead sets are kind of decent, enough to make mention of at the very least but not much more than that. Overall, this mon is deceptively strong and definitely warrants a rise, but its extreme weakness to common priority and physical attacks in general is making me hesitate to agree for it to go anywhere higher than B.
 
From A+ to S
Agree. Sharpedo-Mega is since a long time ago a prominent threat in the Underused meta. With only Hazards support it can be very deadly in mid game or late game. Is Speed tier allows it to outspeed after 1 Speed Boost a major part of the tier and after 2 Speed Boost the entire metagame. With the recent shift and the evolution of the metagame, offense are more common than before which permit to Sharpedo-Mega to easily break through.
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
3 Megas in S rank maybe? :D

A+ --> S: I'm starting to realize how ridiculous Mega Latias' is in this meta considering its massive upgrade in bulk and that its uninvested Special Attack is stronger than that of its fully invested base form's; even a set with Stored Power and HP fire which doesn't seem very ideal on a CM set still puts in very heavy work against teams that lack Dark-types or Toxic spammers, and with its wide range of attacking options, it's literally able to pick and choose its checks and counters.
A+ --> S: I'm also sticking to this nomination because Mega Gardevoir is heavily centralizing in this meta to the point where you either have Steel-types or you get obliterated by this, and especially so now that Jirachi is gone.
A+ --> S: This one I'm slightly less supportive of just because overall it's not as good as Weavile or Scizor, but Mega Shark is definitely among the top 3 megas in this tier along with Garde and Latias, and it's definitely a cut above all of the A+ 'mons right now. Can't go wrong with raising this
A- --> B+: While being an offensive Grass-type is still really nice, the tandem of Weavile and Volt-Turn definitely hurt Celebi a lot more than it helped despite it countering Rotom-W and having U-Turn itself, which isn't even a great option for it right now.
 
Last edited:

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis the Smogon Tour Season 14 Champion
I don't have too much thoughts on the current Discussion Points. I do think MLati should stay in A+, because its counterplays are some of the most annoying to face (being weak to U-Turn and Pursuit are some of the worst weakness to have in Pokemon). I wouldn't put Nihilego in B+ because it seems less consistent than the Pokemon currently staying there. Its speed stat is underwhelming in the tier, and I feel like a lot of teams have natural counterplays for it in their team (weak to most priorities, outsped by a bunch of popular scarfers, and lack of really good and powerful stabs). I'd also put Celebi in B+ because it has, like Latias, the worst weaknesses to deal with (Pursuit/U-Turn weak) without being as good offensively.

I would also like to nominate Umbreon for a spot in the VR. I'll leave the rank up to the team's discretion, but I think the Physically Defensive tank has a great spot in the meta (and it was even better recently when Jirachi was around). You check/counter some of the strongest Pokemons around and can't even get flinched with Inner Focus. To name a few: Weavile, Sharpedo-Mega, Aero-Mega, Latias, Manectric-Mega, Krookodile, Mamoswine. Foul Play is a great offensive tool and can even prevent some of its would-be checks to play around it as much as they'd like, such as Scizor.

Of course, Umbreon comes with some downsides, such as inviting fearsome Pokemons like Gardevoir-Mega or Cobalion (even risking Justified boosts in the process). It's also an open invitation to Klefki.

Umbreon has a variety of great support moves that can be tailored to your team. Wish, Heal Bell, Taunt, the movepool isn't too lacking.
 
I don't have too much thoughts on the current Discussion Points. I do think MLati should stay in A+, because its counterplays are some of the most annoying to face (being weak to U-Turn and Pursuit are some of the worst weakness to have in Pokemon). I wouldn't put Nihilego in B+ because it seems less consistent than the Pokemon currently staying there. Its speed stat is underwhelming in the tier, and I feel like a lot of teams have natural counterplays for it in their team (weak to most priorities, outsped by a bunch of popular scarfers, and lack of really good and powerful stabs). I'd also put Celebi in B+ because it has, like Latias, the worst weaknesses to deal with (Pursuit/U-Turn weak) without being as good offensively.

I would also like to nominate Umbreon for a spot in the VR. I'll leave the rank up to the team's discretion, but I think the Physically Defensive tank has a great spot in the meta (and it was even better recently when Jirachi was around). You check/counter some of the strongest Pokemons around and can't even get flinched with Inner Focus. To name a few: Weavile, Sharpedo-Mega, Aero-Mega, Latias, Manectric-Mega, Krookodile, Mamoswine. Foul Play is a great offensive tool and can even prevent some of its would-be checks to play around it as much as they'd like, such as Scizor.

Of course, Umbreon comes with some downsides, such as inviting fearsome Pokemons like Gardevoir-Mega or Cobalion (even risking Justified boosts in the process). It's also an open invitation to Klefki.

Umbreon has a variety of great support moves that can be tailored to your team. Wish, Heal Bell, Taunt, the movepool isn't too lacking.
I don't get the argument on that if you're not a certain type combination, then you're not a good Pokémon. It doesn't matter what STABs you are. A Pokémon with any kind of type combination can be effective in a tier. Rock/Poison is a unique STAB that only Nihilego has, and I don't know how base 103 speed is bad since that's faster than over half of the UU Pokémon. Most Pokémon in the A rankings are slower than Nihilego and you could slap a Choice Scarf on it for guaranteed outspeediness. I say nominate it to B/B+.
 
I don't get the argument on that if you're not a certain type combination, then you're not a good Pokémon. It doesn't matter what STABs you are. A Pokémon with any kind of type combination can be effective in a tier. Rock/Poison is a unique STAB that only Nihilego has, and I don't know how base 103 speed is bad since that's faster than over half of the UU Pokémon. Most Pokémon in the A rankings are slower than Nihilego and you could slap a Choice Scarf on it for guaranteed outspeediness. I say nominate it to B/B+.

To be honest, looking at how typing fits in the metagame is a perfectly valid analysis, although I agree with you nobody should be so dogmatic as to discount typings But nobody did that for Nihilego anyways? Can you elaborate or did you just misread (or can you direct me to the point I'm missing!)
 
Hi, been absent from UU for a year, now making a comeback.

While Rock/Poison can be awkward, Nihilego DOES have excellent Special Attack to make up for its lack of hi-power STAB as well as access to Power Gem, a criminally underdistributed move, and a lot of Pokemon that might not mind a Stone Edge aren't nearly as equipped to deal with special Rock STAB.

But yes, a bad STAB or defensive type combo can greatly hinder Pokemon. Some Pokemon live and die by their relation to Stealth Rock, after all.
 
I would also like to nominate Umbreon for a spot in the VR. I'll leave the rank up to the team's discretion, but I think the Physically Defensive tank has a great spot in the meta (and it was even better recently when Jirachi was around). You check/counter some of the strongest Pokemons around and can't even get flinched with Inner Focus. To name a few: Weavile, Sharpedo-Mega, Aero-Mega, Latias, Manectric-Mega, Krookodile, Mamoswine. Foul Play is a great offensive tool and can even prevent some of its would-be checks to play around it as much as they'd like, such as Scizor.

Of course, Umbreon comes with some downsides, such as inviting fearsome Pokemons like Gardevoir-Mega or Cobalion (even risking Justified boosts in the process). It's also an open invitation to Klefki.

Umbreon has a variety of great support moves that can be tailored to your team. Wish, Heal Bell, Taunt, the movepool isn't too lacking.
Can i get an amen here?

It is true that Umbreon as a physical
defender gives many headaches. Has a lot to give his team as a Pokemon Utility, resists a lot of damage and ultimately gives a lot of security in the teams. However, you need to have something in the team against Cobalion, because it comes very easy in Umbreon, and with the Double Dancer set can destroy your team if you neglect. I would put it in B- / C+ and hence it goes up or down according to the results.
 
Can i get an amen here?

It is true that Umbreon as a physical
defender gives many headaches. Has a lot to give his team as a Pokemon Utility, resists a lot of damage and ultimately gives a lot of security in the teams. However, you need to have something in the team against Cobalion, because it comes very easy in Umbreon, and with the Double Dancer set can destroy your team if you neglect. I would put it in B- / C+ and hence it goes up or down according to the results.
It's not just Cobalion that gets a free switch in against Umbreon, things like Gliscor, Klefki, and just about any defensive mon that doesn't care about Toxic reduce Umbreon to little more then the teams meatshield/cleric as long as said mons are alive, their the reason why UU stopped using Umbreon in the first place.
I would personally put Umbreon at C rank for the time being, while it's great in some matchups, it'll struggle in others due to it's best recovery being either Wish or Moonlight, the former giving opponents an extra turn to do whatever while the latter has only 8 PP. Making it easy to wear Umbreon down as long as you keep pressure on it.

On an amusing side note however, it might be worth running 4 speed EV's on Umbreon to outrun bulky Scizor since you can actually beat it under the right conditions:

+2 0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 207-244 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 0 Atk Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 254-302 (64.4 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%) -- 85.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(The opponent needs two very high rolls to 2HKO from full due to leftovers, assuming Scizor has nobody left to U-turn out, otherwise you just deal really good damage.)
 
Last edited:
I don't get the argument on that if you're not a certain type combination, then you're not a good Pokémon. It doesn't matter what STABs you are. A Pokémon with any kind of type combination can be effective in a tier. Rock/Poison is a unique STAB that only Nihilego has, and I don't know how base 103 speed is bad since that's faster than over half of the UU Pokémon. Most Pokémon in the A rankings are slower than Nihilego and you could slap a Choice Scarf on it for guaranteed outspeediness. I say nominate it to B/B+.
McMeghan mentioned it in the middle of the first paragraph saying that it's STABs aren't good
 

Cynde

winter ♥
is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to nominate Seismitoad for anywhere between C+ to B-. I think UU majors have indicated that it's an extremely valuable pokemon to have given how popular volt turn has become. The capability to handle Rotom Wash, Non Hp grass manectric in the same slot while at the same time being capable of checking the same shit that swampert did is very useful. Just based on how dominant volt turn has become, a mon that helps shut it down deserves a place in the viability rankings. yeah it does similar things gastrodon did but having access to stealth rock is what sets it apart, and the fact that it can get rid of its own status with refresh, and it has knock off so it isn't lacking in utility. therefore i think it fits in the same rank as gastrodon and if gastrodon's access to recover makes it that much better relative to this c+ is fine too.
 
Last edited:
C - > C-
I would love to nominate this trash mon to F rank, but I'm not sure if removing it entirely from the rankings is fair (yet). Look, I just don't see any reason to use Mamph on a team. Not only is using Mamph a waste of a Mega with the current options available (MGarde, MAlt, and MLati, for example all are eons better than Mamph), but the current prevalent threats just don't do Mamph any justice. Weavile is everywhere. MGarde is everywhere. MAlt is everywhere. I just don't see how MAmph is going to do anything.

Adding on to why MAmph is god awful, it is a complete vacuum for momentum. Bringing in MAmph is basically acknowledging that you plan on sitting and doing jack all for however long you leave it in for, and with how common Volt-Turn is currently, the last thing you want is momentum sucked away for no reward. Honestly, what does MAmph contribute to the meta? I see no niche for it because all the things MAmph wants to do it either doesn't do effectively or something just does it better. Washtom is a better defensive Electric. MAlt is a better offensive Dragon (and an actual effective use of a mega).

The primary reason I am only nomming MAmph to C- instead of unmon entirely is because TECHNICALLY it can still act as a defensive wall to Mega-Shark and other physical mons such as Infernape and MBee, but is that niche really worth losing out on a better mega? When there are other mons that can do what MAmph does but literally 10x better? I don't think so.
 
Small update. Thanks everyone for contributing. As always feel free to discuss if you feel your nomination was treated unfairly or incompletely.

The descriptions for all Pokemon ranked B- to S are now in this thread's second post. You can discuss that too if something sticks out to you.

Rises
Latias Mega A+ --> S
As Latias Mega is being used more optimally now abusing bulky sweeping sets, it is becoming more of a threat. Calm Mind sets are extraordinarily bulky on the special side, not being revenged by Hydreigon, and still have high power, especially after a boost or two. It also has enough physical bulk to even give some trappers trouble if at full.
Nihilego B- --> B
A relatively strong and bulky Pokemon whose slightly below average power STABs are compensated by a variety of factors including Beast Boost, Acid Spray, and items. Defensive typing leaves much to be desired but it has a great movepool, apart from the moderate STABs.
Seismitoad UR --> B-
Seismitoad is about as viable as Gastrodon, being able to counter Rotom-Wash, because it trades reliable recovery in exchange for Stealth Rocks and some other utility moves.
Umbreon UR --> C+
Physically defensive Umbreon is a very viable choice on stall teams because they can deal with most of the threats Umbreon invites like Cobalion. It gives good utility and counters several tops threat, Foul Play is surprisingly useful and means even Scizor has trouble.
Dugtrio UR --> D
Ranked by technicality, it will probably fall off to lower tiers and be unranked again.


Drops
Celebi A- --> B+
Still a good choice, but probably no longer considered top tier. Its versatility is tempered by the fact it has many weaknesses to common Pokemon like Weavile.

Froslass B --> C+
Spikes offense is now dominated by Klefki rather than Froslass because Klefki offers hugely greater defensive utility and more reliable hazards. It can still be useful with Taunt and some key stats and typing though.

Volcanion B+ --> B
The metagame is becoming somewhat too fast paced for Volcanion and the preponderance of Latias, Latias Mega, and Rotom-Wash does Volcanion few favors. It's as strong and bulky as ever, but those traits are less abusable.

Nidoqueen B- --> C
Dropping for similar reasons to Volcanion, it's a bulky special attacker that has too much competition and too many common checks now. It is also a terrible Electric check versus Rotom (Wash).


Unranked
Shuckle
Servers no notable purpose with Smeargle in the tier.
Ampharos Mega
No longer in the tier and was never seen anyways due to better options for Volt-Turn and Mega slot.


Declined Discussion Points / Nominations
Sharpedo Mega A+ --> S
Apologies for this and the Sceptile Mega discussion, since they were both discussion points and both received a good deal of positive discussion. But compared to Weavile which threatens to trap a majority of offensive Pokémon and can spam moves much more easily, and Scizor which is all around much more useful, Sharpedo Mega is pretty clearly not yet an S Pokémon.

Sceptile Mega B+ --> A-
While it is seeing different sets with Swords Dance, it is still only a slightly above average sweeper because of the lack of sheer power. It has good attacking stats but no access to an item and its offensive movepool while relatively wide, is not very powerful.


Discussion Points
Krookodile A --> A-
In part because of Weavile's enormous influence in the metagame which serves as competition as a trapper. It also is finding difficulty in trapping Mega Latias compared to Weavile and does not particularly fare well against Volt-Turn.

Primarina A --> A-
Competition with Gardevoir Mega although Primarina provides a much better typing in most respects and does not require a Mega slot.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Krookodile: A to A- or B+
As much as I hate to say it, Krook really doesn't deserve A rn. As a fast offensive Dark-type, it's Choice Scarf set doesn't beat anything in particular that Weavile doesn't (Bar Klefki or something). Especially with the rise of Mega Lati, Weavile's stronger moves to deal w/ it are more desirable, and Weavile can also run Low Kick to deal with Coballion and has more damage output due to being able to run a boosting item effectively. In terms of an offensive Ground-type, Mamo gives it some tough competition as Mamo is stronger, has very useful priority, and has freeze-dry to push past bulky waters.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.