SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mark Three

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B+ ---> A-/A

On the surface it might seem kinda odd but imo this mon is unequivocally the most powerful breaker in the tier. Flame orb can destroy every single archetype and build since no mon cleanly switches into the combo of burned cc/facade/knock. I honestly think it's as threatening to full stall as xurk was since stall has little, if any, counterplay outside of scarfers. Quag, sylv, mantine, tent, and klefki are all 2hkoed and mola/gliscor are used as setup fodder. It has respectable defenses too (80,75,95), meaning that it can freely switch into scalds, eqs, and knocks (if already burned), and that it can't be trapped by pursuits. Obviously it's not infallible, as it can be revenged relatively easily, but the offensive pressure it creates upon switch-in and how much it can hurt stall 100% merits a rise imo.
 
B+ --> B
As much as it hurts me to say this, Crawdaunt isn't as viable as it was before the drops. Mega-Altaria doesn't care about its STAB's, and the Hydreigon spam doesn't help it either. The fast paced meta and volt turn as a whole also make him not as threatening, with mons like Mega-Manectric.
B+ --> A-
I've been enjoying Hippo in this meta because of how it can shut down Mega-Manectric, not being afraid of hp ice nor hp grass as its other counters. With a rocky helmet, it can punish u-turners, and is also able to put rocks up against a lot of mons. Its biggest problems are its passivity, as most of the time your only attack will be Earthquake, which is easily exploitable. It's also kinda predictable when it switches in, which can be a problem because of the passivity I've mentioned. Still a great mon in my opinion.
 
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I'm not too sure on this because I've haven't seen this thing since rotom wash came but asking talonflame to move down to C+ .
Volt Turn kinda leaves this thing just doing nothing for the majority of the match when wash and mane shit all over it and trying to guarantee hazards off the field to make leaves it inconsistent at cleaning and needing an SD to get consistent kills on mons like hydrei lati can leave it struggling when those mons are healthy and SSSS can be left to a 50/50 if baited out and wasted on a mon leaving it kinda deadweight when any mon with bulk breaks galewings.
Compared to mons like mantine kyurem and metagross, talon just seems too inconsistent in the meta.
 

Euphonos

stains every heart that he uses to heal the pain
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Good day, everyone! Speaking of Asspull's Talonflame nomination, allow me to bring a slight but radical nomination that no one else brought up:

C- > C+ (at minimum)
I actually find Moltres being in the bottom of the pile appalling. While I acknowledge Moltres's limitations such as a horrid Stealth Rock weakness and inaccurate but powerful moves, Moltres definitely has a niche to carve in the metagame as one of the greatest countermeasures against most Physical attackers, most notably one of the most used Pokemon in the entire UU metagame: Scizor. By virtue of Moltres's hidden ability in Flame Body, U-turn users have to think twice before they do use that move; once connected, those physical attackers will be rendered useless for the entire game (especially if no cleric support is present). Moltres can have two sets that are worth using in this metagame: the first fulfilling a rather defensive role by virtue of the SubToxic set, where its typing synergizes well with other Pokemon such as Mega Steelix and Tentacruel that could provide hazards and removes Stealth Rock on the field which increases Moltres's longevity; the second fulfilling an offensive role by virtue of using Agility, which is definitely one of my most favorite sets to use (as shown here) as Fire and Flying are one of the most aggressive types worth exploiting - while Fire Blast and Hurricane are rather inaccurate options that would risk missing, a Z-Crystal can be of good use here by treating one of those inaccurate moves to a one-time, big-time hit.

(oh, cheers to my 900th post!)
 
Hey guys, I'm back with some nominations, this one slate larger than I usually do, as I figured the VR could use some house cleaning, so I hope you guys enjoy.

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Mega Beedrill to A+
In a voltturn metagame, Mega Bee here stands as a fantastic option for offensive teams. Its speed and ability to revenge kill a multitude of threats most notably being +1 Mega Altaria, Mega Latias, and non-Choice Scarf Nihilego with its STABs and coverage. It also has utility in that it's a semi-reliable Toxic Spikes setter due to the switches it causes, and with Weavile gone, there's one less thing in the select group that will be able to stop a late game sweep. It also is an alternative to Mega Manectric that is just as good on Voltturn teams that has the advantage of better speed and power, but less defensive utility.

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Togekiss to B+
With the rise of VoltTurn, and Mega Altaria, Togekiss finds itself increasingly pressured as a sweeper and for a team slot. Mega Altaria gives it competition for a slot due to better defensive typing, sweeping potential, also having Heal Bell, not being weak to rocks while also being able to run Mixed or Special sets such as the one recently utilized by Cynde. The prevelance of Mega Manectric, Mega Beedrill, Scizor, and Rotom W, and the fall in Krookodile viability also hurt its ability to wallbreak or be reliable defensively. It also is outclassed at being an offensive Flying type by Mega Pidgeot who has the utility to U-Turn, hit harder and ability to beat steels more reliably. In short, Togekiss finds its roles slowly being both outclassed and pressured at the niches it does have over its competition, and it simply doesn't have the consistency for A-.

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Mega Blastoise to B+
Mega Blastoise faces stiff competition as a spinner, offensive Water-Type and as a Mega. As a spinner, Tentacruel gives it stiff competition as a spinner due to Tentacruel not taking your Mega slot while also providing similar defensive utility, Toxic Spikes, and being a better check to metagame threats such as Infernape,Primarina and Cobalion by virtue of its Poison typing. Offensively, Primarina has better STAB coverage, not taking your mega slot and ability to offensively check Mega Altaria. Rotom W has better splashability, more defensive utility due to will o wisp, and is less susceptible to being chipped as it has a neutrality to Volt Switch. It also has Pain Split to help recover HP, something Blastoise doesn't have, while also being able to pivot out of switch ins, and ability to run Z moves or have passive recovery from Leftovers. Defog Mega Latias has been seeing some usage, giving it even more competition. As a Mega, it doesn't have the offensive utility of say a Mega Manectric, or the Defensive Utility of a Mega Latias due to having no recovery, and its effectiveness has gone down as a result of such a pivot based meta and the prevelance of other bulky Water-types.

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Volcanion to B-/C+
Volcanion's lack of recovery and weakness to Stealth Rock is getting exposed on a consistent basis due to the preponderance of the Voltturn in the metagame. Rotom W has better defensive and offensive utility. Primarina doesn't get punished for locking into its moves as much as Volcanion, and Mega Blastoise has better typing and arguably better coverage. Volcanion's low speed hurts it as well, as it often becomes a complete momentum suck, allowing in free switches for common threats such as Mega Latias, Hydreigon, and Tentacruel, all of whom can swap whatever momentum that was left from switching Volcanion in back to their side whether a Rapid Spin, CM, or a powerful Choice Specs Draco or a simple U-turn.

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Forretress to D
There is no reason to use Forretress. As a spikes setter, its outclassed by Klefki who has better typing and utility with Twave, Play Rough, Screens etc. As a rocks setter it only sets rocks and nothing else, as its often forced to spam Rapid Spin and even when using an attack has pitiful damage, and it's also outclassed by the likes of Metagross and Coballion, who provide much more offensive utility. As a hazard remover, Scizor totally outclasses, as Forretress has no reliable recovery like Scizor, has no way to damage things meaningfully like Scizor, and Volt Switch is almost useless compared to a Scizor U-Turn, as Forre is shut down by most Ground Types.

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Sylveon to B/B+
Sylveon's ability to support bulky teams is bolstered by the fact that it can take on Voltturn staples such as Mega Manectric, Specs Hydreigon, Scarf Ape, Scizor if it has HP Fire and gets the prediction right. It also helps against the chip damage so much pivoting can rack up via Wish and Heal Bell support, something bulky offense and balance appreciate much more than you'd think.

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Arcanine to D
With the ban of Weavile, Arcanine finds itself hopelessly outclassed at checking everything it wants to check. Rotom W both does the job of beating steels better but also gets a free switch in everytime Arcanine comes in. Mega Lati, DDD Mega Altaria and the newly popular Seismitoad and Gastrodon come in on it for free and start throwing off attacks or setting up. Hippowdon's increased viability leaves Morning Sun as a means of recovery almost totally useless. It has lost its only positive and kept all of its negatives from before it rose.
 
I'm late and the noms I had were all sniped fuck

Mienshao to B

I was talking in Discord, and I came to the conclusion that Shao in B- isn't fair. Band is just absolutely nuts to switch into that 2hkos many fighting resists. It also has U-turn and that sheer, sheer power so calling it entirely outclassed by Terrakion is unfair. If something's slower, it's dying. And there's plenty slower in this meta - the rise of Specs Hydregion over scarf means it lost a revenge killer, and those fighting resists it 2hkos are becoming pretty common. I just feel as though B- underrates such a powerful mon that's reacting well to metagame trends.

Slowbro down to B-/C+

Drop this to the shadow realm. VoltTurn shits hard on it and Spikes does too. Most mons that fit on those play styles - scizor, mane, wash, bee, hydregion, shark - just invalidate it from existence. A defensive mon that loses to the two most common offensive play styles is no good to me.

UR Slowking

it's legit just worse than slowbro. I'd rather have the defense so I can at least check fightings better. Slowking is just garbage in this meta and I see no reason to keep it ranked.

I'll make more noms tomorrow if I feel like it.
 
C- --> D: Agreed pretty heavily on this one. Forretress is hilariously ineffective as both a hazard setter and a rapid spinner, as it loses 1v1 to almost every opposing hazard setter and remover while also letting 95% of the tier in for free and generally it's just better to split roles up between your team than use this thing ever. It's the definition of a passive wall and it doesn't even have the recovery or the ability to stop setup to make up for it. I would never recommend this on any team.
 

TSR

you can't break me down!
is a Tiering Contributor
So there may be a a good number of people who saw this coming, but I have a nom for a mon that's being really overlooked at the moment:

to something higher than C

Salazzle's something I messed around with with this new tier shift and I've been finding it to be a much more effective threat than I first imagined. I legitimately think this mon might be worthy of B+ or A- (might be a bit of a stretch given its Stealth Rock weakness and poor defensive utility) given how well it can do against our most common metagame threats. However, I understand wanting to bump something up more than an entire letter grade is definitely a bit too ambitious, so I suppose I'll just be nominating it to rise to somewhere just a bit higher than it is now until more people have experimented with it and (hopefully) agree with me here.




Salazzle (F) @ Poisonium Z
Ability: Corrosion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Ice]

If you take a look down the top of the rankings, this thing can be a nightmare for standard-ish bulky offense. This set has but a single hard check throughout all of the S through A- ranks; just Mega Aero. The current meta trends are also pretty great for it, we've been seeing a pretty big drop off of Scarf Krookodile and MAero usage (and even more so when you consider that more and more Aerodactyl are going without Roost). Don't get me wrong, I don't exactly think that this thing is incredibly hard to deal if you have a decently put together team, but it can take advantage of how easy it is to pressure its checks. Excluding things like Hippowdon, Blissey and Jellicent, many of its checks have are somewhat hard pressed to stick around for a long time. Some more popular stuff like Empoleon, Alolan Muk, and Tentacruel (none of which should be only B+, but that's a post for a different day) are often placed on any given team to stop a more contemporary metagame threat like Cobalion or Latias. Point is, most of it's more common checks aren't hard to pressure into a corner if you play halfway decently. Corrosion is also a good ability to abuse in certain matchups, as you can net a poison on an incoming Tentacruel, Alolan Muk, or Nihilego, making it that much harder to check in the long run. 117 is also a great speed tier for it as well too, as only a handful of UU mons naturally outspeed it, five of which being megas that you obviously won't be seeing together on a single team, and the somewhat rare Talonflame and Crobat (though Haze Crobat is a great Altaria counter!). I can't stress enough that this speed tier is fantastic for it; being above even Starmie and Zygarde-10%'s 115 Speed tier is fantastic for any offensive Pokemon in the current meta. It's a little hard pressed itself to find good opportunities to set up with Nasty Plot as it's 68/60/60 defenses and a Stealth Rock weakness aren't doing it any favors, but it can often find itself a chance against some common threats, as Mega Altaria, Cobalion, and Scizor typically want to avoid getting dumpstered early on. In my time using it I've found it to be a little more than just a niche, anti-meta threat. It's far from the perfect Pokemon and it can admittedly fall flat in some matchups (anything with a Blissey), but I do think it has the tools to be a hreat to put into consideration when building.

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 408-480 (115.9 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-10%: 293-345 (117.6 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
--
(I haven't used HP Ice yet in practice, but it's seems useful as it can KO these two without needing to boost or waste the Z move)

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 358-423 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Salazzle Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Swampert: 252-300 (62.8 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery -- Not super impressive I suppose, but Swampert basically has to be at full against an unboosted Salazzle. If Pert takes an unboosted Close Combat from Cobalion it's basically lights out.

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 279-328 (86.1 - 101.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 453-534 (112.4 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk-Alola: 214-253 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- get this off with rocks up and the rest of their team is probably Mega Latias food.
252+ Atk Muk-Alola Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 153-180 (55.2 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- you just 1v1 Muk (from 100) assuming they're not running more than 4 SDef (you should).

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 277-327 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mantine: 348-409 (93 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Acid Downpour (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 218-257 (60 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery -- hit this with a +2 Close Combat from Cobalion and you're got yourself a game.

+2 252 SpA Salazzle Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 262-309 (86.1 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


I used Salazzle in the early weeks of Majors, so here's a replay of it being especially useful; not quite as cool as I remember though. I only have the one since I kinda lost interest in Majors after choosing sleep over mons for the first recorded time in history by week three. I'll be sure to update this with some more decent replays of it doing something in the near future. n_n
 

eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
Are Togekiss and M-Altaria really in competition for Sweeper? I always thought Togekiss was more of a StallBreaker and M-Alt as a sweeper. I think Togekiss should still be in A- because of Air Flinch itself mostly because it allows it to bullshit its way through non-Blissey defensive Pokemon through coverage, a great Offensive typing, or pure FlinchHax. Stallbreaker Altaria (the one that runs Mono-Fairy attacking moves) runs into problems with Steel types and Quagsire. Also, I really don't think that M-Pidgeot and Togekiss are comparable either since they serve two different roles on a team. Furthermore, Togekiss doesn't have a Mega Stone opportunity cost attached to it, especially in a tier where M-Pidgeot isn't even one of the top 3 Mega Pokemon at the moment.

Backing the Salazzle nomination. I've messed around with this Pokemon in UU for fun, and it still forces quite a number of switches in the tier, especially against some of the bigger Pokemon in the tier like Klefki and Cobalion, giving it a number of ample set-up opportunities.

The beauty of Salazzle is that it can match against almost every Fairy in the tier right now because of the 0.25x modifier on Fairy moves (Poison/Fire resistances). Feasibly, it can switch in on a Hyper Voice or Play Rough from Klefki

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 30-36 (10.7 - 12.9%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 97-115 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 100-118 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 87-103 (31.2 - 37%) -- 77.2% chance to 3HKO

These calculations aren't necessarily situation-matched, just a proof in concept that the double resistance to Fairy is really, really useful for this Pokemon.
 
Here are my thoughts...

Forretress - I find myself using this less and less, since once upon a time volt switch + rapid spin was a cool niche, its now taken over by better and better hazard removers and a meta that favours fast volt turn over defensive volt turn. Role compression has just become a lot easier, too. I agree with a drop (defog scizor is better in almost all ways anyway). Its also really bad as a lead, because aero azelf froslass and even cloyster do it better.

Mienshao - It does sort of combine the power of darmanitan with the speed of infernape, but in practise it finds itself incapable of taking it a step further if the opponent has gliscor or altaria or some similar fighting counter. You end up pretty useless if that is the case. On the other hand, it has a lot of interesting things to play around with, from poison jab to knock off, even regenerator which imo is appreciated on volt turn as it struggles against spike stack. I'm really on the fence about this though, so I cant advocate for a rise or a drop, but hopefully i made some discussion.

Slowbro - I have not seen slowbro make a good play in eons. It is still a really nice all rounder that can sweep vs most teams, but a lot of other teams will be running a counter without even trying to counter it (celebi, manectric, sceptile, blah). On top of this, everything is using toxic now for latias and in general all the pokemon that are popular right now just dont care about slowbro so i agree with a drop. Waterium Z is border line a waste of a z move, too.

Slowking - i dont know if unranking it is fair, as nasty plot still has some level of play, but for the most part its really hard to justify over slowbro, and even as a special wall it has unfavourable matchups against most special attackers at the top of the VR. Assault vest future sight seems like an incredibly small niche, but other than that I dont see a reason for this. Also, pursuit is a thing. I just wanna point out that in previous metas its physical bulk was quite passable, so if it ever gets to a point where scizor is banned and stuff, it would be nice to keep in the ranks.

Arcanine - I dont agree with a drop. With roar, it actually makes for a neat altaria check, and is still as good of an anti-meta mon as it was previously imo. Still though it doesnt need to check celebi or sylveon anymore, but the ability to counter scizor and uturn spam in general in a tier where voltturn is pretty amazing, makes me very much against a drop. Unlike most altaria checks, it also has recovery, which is something else to keep in mind.

Sylveon - special walls are pretty good right now, and sylveon just has a nice neutral typing in a tier like this. Its ability to beat most common special attackers while still providing very useful support makes it good enough to rise, even despite its brother umbreon taking over a little bit. Hyper voice's power makes it just good enough to consider rising along with the rest of the special walls.

Volcanion - special mons like this are very one dimensional. Its so much easier to switch into volc than it was a few metas ago, and it really doesnt provide much of a defensive niche to consider using if you cant afford to be stealth rock weak. However, some cool sets exist, but not enough to justify it staying, so C+ seems fine. I dont use it enough but I can see it obviously struggles in this meta.

Blastioise - The point about it having too much competition is correct. Just in principle, i dont find myself picking blastoise for any of these roles simply due to these constraints. Also, water types in this meta are really questionable with the drops taken into account. I have seen lure sets which i think are neat, but that hardly justifies it staying. Keep in mind that its best partners like talonflame are falling down too, making it hard to justify using blastoise.

Togekiss - It's kind of silly that it is in A-. It is a good pokemon, but the meta trends dont favour it at all, and even besides that, it in no way screams A ranks to me, its way more sensible to be in B. it might have a lot of nice options like tailwind and trick and stuff, but if i compare it to other sweepers i don't see why i'd use it over them. When in conjunction with latias, it makes for a pretty good stallbreaker, i'll give it that. Either way, im pretty impartial because i dont use it much. Edit: I suppose a point i didnt consider is that the lack of a mega stone as well as its ability to run more sets than pidgeot can, makes it good enough for A-. Still though i see both Pidge and toge at B+.

Beedrill - Beedrill is good but imo it's not A+ good. It's incredibly one dimensional and right from the get go you know what it will be doing and can play accordingly. it still does its job well, but not as easily and flexibly as other turners.

Moltres - never used it, but flame body is incredibly good vs uturn, which is why i used flame body talon once. C+ wont hurt. Having another scizor counter in the tier is very nice.

Talon - I really don't know, because a defensive set makes for a slightly faster moltres with taunt, and offensive sets are still pretty good even in the volt turn meta. I think it could be on the same level as moltres though so i wont argue with C+.

Hippowdon, heracross, crawdaunt - no opinion, but i have seen hippo put in a lot of work. Can't say the same for the other two.

Salazle - also no real opinion, but its hard to argue with an anti-meta mon rising a level or two.

edit: umbreon also needs to rise, it reliably counters mega latias and most special attackers
 
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I'm gonna definitely agree with forry to s you fuckers to D because while it has role compression, it's just bad at what it does to the point of being ineffective period. It's a shit steel type that's excessively slow and frail on the special side with no reliable recovery, so it can't check what a steel should. As a pivot it invites way too much for free, as a setter it's easily taunted and as a spinner, most good rockers beat it. I've tried to get it to work but it's not happened.

Sylveon up is another nom I support as it really shuts down a lot of common threats while being a pain to switch into. The rise of hydregion and Latias-mega - many which don't carry psyshock - are just lovely for it. Rise please.

As for blast, I'm for a drop. The wonrate in Snake from what I've seen has been kinda mixed (I haven't watched every round tho) but one of those wins was out of pure hax. If that didn't happen the winrate wouldn't be too great. It's slow and easy to wear down by the same spikes it's meant to spin away. It definitely should not be the same rank as starmie.

Bee up for sure. This thing is far more versatile than people think. It can lay t spikes, brutalized anything with sd, become a true pain to switch into with knock + drill run, and I've seen even fucking defog on it to good use. It also really appreciates the rise of Latias-mega, altaria mega and in general is definitely as good as mane on VoltTurn.

Arcanine belongs in the shadow realm. Weavile was the only reason it rose and frankly no other trends are favourable for it enough for it to stay out of D.
 
Are Togekiss and M-Altaria really in competition for Sweeper? I always thought Togekiss was more of a StallBreaker and M-Alt as a sweeper. I think Togekiss should still be in A- because of Air Flinch itself mostly because it allows it to bullshit its way through non-Blissey defensive Pokemon through coverage, a great Offensive typing, or pure FlinchHax. Stallbreaker Altaria (the one that runs Mono-Fairy attacking moves) runs into problems with Steel types and Quagsire. Also, I really don't think that M-Pidgeot and Togekiss are comparable either since they serve two different roles on a team. Furthermore, Togekiss doesn't have a Mega Stone opportunity cost attached to it, especially in a tier where M-Pidgeot isn't even one of the top 3 Mega Pokemon at the moment.

Backing the Salazzle nomination. I've messed around with this Pokemon in UU for fun, and it still forces quite a number of switches in the tier, especially against some of the bigger Pokemon in the tier like Klefki and Cobalion, giving it a number of ample set-up opportunities.

The beauty of Salazzle is that it can match against almost every Fairy in the tier right now because of the 0.25x modifier on Fairy moves (Poison/Fire resistances). Feasibly, it can switch in on a Hyper Voice or Play Rough from Klefki

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 30-36 (10.7 - 12.9%) -- possible 8HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 97-115 (34.8 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Salazzle: 100-118 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Gardevoir-Mega Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Salazzle: 87-103 (31.2 - 37%) -- 77.2% chance to 3HKO

These calculations aren't necessarily situation-matched, just a proof in concept that the double resistance to Fairy is really, really useful for this Pokemon.
The argument I was trying to make is that Togekiss and Mega Altaria take up the same slots. The same is true for Mega Pidgeot and Togekiss. Mega Altaria, while not being exactly similar, does a lot of the same things defensively and Heal Bell. Mega Pidgeot checks a lot of the same things it does offensively but better. You're not putting both Mega Altaria/Pidgeot + Togekiss on a team as that would be redundant. It's ability to flinch through checks as you say is hampered by such an offensively inclined meta where every team has a Scizor of some sort or a Rotom W. While yes, Togekiss does have the nonmega + to it as well, but it simply finds itself too pressured for team slots in this meta, even if Bird Jesus is in its crucifix stage.

To avoid this being a one liner:

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Mienshao to B

I agree. It's decent albeit flawed speed tier, ability to pivot with U-Turn, and great coverage PLUS the fact that this is one of the most powerful wallbreakers in the tier warrants a rise. It can bust holes without fear of recoil (Game Freak better make Flare Blitz have 0 recoil so we can use CB Darm smh) or drawback. It can lure things for teammates or just simply bust holes through a team, allowing other dangerous sweepers to win. Simply put, it's either a devestating wallbreaker or the most dangerous supportive threat of all time depending on how you look at any given situation and how it's used.


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Salazzle to B-
It's good speed tier, ability to OHKO Latias, wear down checks with Toxic + Corrosion and also check the majority of Steel and Fairy-types in the tier bar Klefki who can only TWave back anyway give it significant niches over the likes of NP Infernape and Lucario, its closest analogoues in the tier. However it's much better explained by my buddy TSR a few posts above.
 
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eaglehawk

once known as smogon gay baby #4
If anything, I'd think Togekiss would be in direct competition for a teamslot with other stallbreakers like Gliscor or SD Hera rather than other Fairy or Flying types.
 
If anything, I'd think Togekiss would be in direct competition for a teamslot with other stallbreakers like Gliscor or SD Hera rather than other Fairy or Flying types.
I'd like to note that kiss is also outclassed by these as it's shit on by many common playstyles, moreso than the others. In particular, the 4 gods of VoltTurn all beat it. In addition, it's overly reliant on air slash flinches which makes it less consistent than the others.
However, looking at snake, it's done pretty well, having a decent winrate unless I calculated wrongly. Being an offensive cleric seemed to have made a strong difference in some of the games. That imo isn't enough to to keep it where it is (tho I'll definitely rewatch some) so I support a drop.
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
rip hilomilo

B+ --> A-: Gud pkmn that is really enjoying having both Garde and Weavile dead; Swords Dance is also pretty cool right now
Stay in B+: Yes, facing VoltTurn gives Crawdaunt issues, but at the same time, Crawdaunt fits best with VoltTurn, which has allowed it to maintain its status as a really terrifying wallbreaker.
B --> B+: Literally the best counter to Mega Latias right now and continues to be a really annoying presence in this meta despite Gliscor/Klef/Cobalion all being really popular right now.
B --> B-: Still a decent pkmn, but Klefki meta has definitely hurt it quite a bit
B --> C+: Bad pkmn
B- --> C+: Sacred Fire isn't going to save this from being in the same rank as Darmanitan, especially when its utility as an offensive burn spreader has hit an all-time low in this meta.
Stay in C-: OTR is still lit af, keep this ranked. Also Colbur berry is literally the best item to run on this mon right now. BPG convinced me that ya may as well use cofagrigus

Also my posts are literally a bunch of one-liners MasterAmpharos so idk what the fear is about those :\
 
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Mienshao - It does sort of combine the power of darmanitan with the speed of infernape, but in practise it finds itself incapable of taking it a step further if the opponent has gliscor or altaria or some similar fighting counter. You end up pretty useless if that is the case. On the other hand, it has a lot of interesting things to play around with, from poison jab to knock off, even regenerator which imo is appreciated on volt turn as it struggles against spike stack. I'm really on the fence about this though, so I cant advocate for a rise or a drop, but hopefully i made some discussion.
Wut?

I can tell you from experience that Mienshao with Choice Band makes 2HKO to the typical set of Gliscor. To call it counter is to exaggerate a little.

I like the Salazzle theme, I would have to give it a try :)
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
I'm gonna go on and add to the already existing plethora of noms being made since there are a few things I think should be acknowledge that haven't been so far. Hope you enjoy reading! Also thanks to Shitbat for stealing half my noms

Swampert down to A-
This one may be a little more controversial, though I feel that Swampert struggles to act as an Electric-type check as reliably with Rotom-W in the tier. While sure, it can still reliably set rocks or get a Toxic off on Washtom, it's sustaining major damage in the process and keeping itself from possibly setting up rocks another time in the match, which can be a big problem. I also think that Swampert struggles for a teamslot more than before with Gliscor and Seismitoad, the latter of which particularly gives it tough competition due to its ability to counter Rotom-W, proving themselves to be very worthwhile Ground-type rockers as of late. It can also struggle to check things like Infernape and Nihilego as easily as Gliscor or Hippowdon due to its 4x Grass weakness and lack of recovery, the latter of which can be particularly troublesome in a meta filled to the brim with chip damage. Overall, I just don't think Swampert has as much of a presence in the tier and in teambuilding as things like Infernape, Mega Altaria, and Mamoswine, and that while still good, a few metagame trends like Rotom-W's dominance and chip damage galore work against it.

Alolan Muk up to B+
Even though I got sniped on this, I'd still like to touch on AloMuk since I think it's one of the more urgent rises at the moment. Its biggest strength is quite obviously its ability to take on Mega Latias more easily than nearly anything else in the metagame, though I've also been finding that it does wonders on VoltTurn as a way of pressuring typical Electric-type resists, most notably the aforementioned Mega Latias, its base forme, Hydreigon lacking Earth Power, Manectric, and Amoonguss. It's just really good at tanking hits from and pressuring the tier's absolute best special attackers, and this in tandem with being easier to fit on teams than earlier on in the meta is absolutely why I can get behind a rise. Krookodile falling off as recent shifts have occurred has also been a bit of a boon, since one of this guy's biggest checks and competitors for a Pursuit trapper is no longer as prevalent or good at its role.

Nihilego up to B+
I was indifferent on this literally like two hours ago, but after talking some with various vr council members, I definitely think that Nihi has more worth in this tier than anything else currently residing in B outside of Alolan Muk. It's an extremely reliable Stealth Rock setter due to its ability to force switches pretty easily, though outside of Stealth Rock it can viably run plenty of extremely threatening sets, including Specs/Life Orb (with some EVs taken from SpA and put into SpD in order to boost Speed upon netting KOs), Substitute, Scarf, and Electrium Z, which is particularly popular among most people that I've spoken to about Nihilego. I generally think that while not a lot has necessarily changed for it, Nihilego just has so much versatility and viability between a lot of different sets that it's hard to compare it to one-dimensional and less consistent Pokemon like Azelf, Blissey, and Volcanion. Super solid mon that really just needs a more accurate rank.

Hippowdon up to A-
Another nomination that's already been addressed, though I feel like this one has gotten a little lost in conversation these last couple posts and that there are some more things we can cover with Hippowdon. Losing to Rotom-W is definitely a huge drawback that comes with using Hippo, but I personally think that in a metagame comprised of teams that look to chip opponents to death with pivoting and hazards, Hippowdon stands as a really solid attack sponger. In addition to handling all of the chip damage better than bulky Ground-types like Swampert and Mega Steelix (largely due to its access to recovery), Hippo acts as one of the most reliable Mega Manectric checks available by virtue of literally not caring about any Hidden Power coverage it could run. It also matches up well against Pokemon that are currently very good/prevalent, including Infernape, Cobalion, Mega Beedrill, and the rising Alolan Muk. Overall, Hippowdon is just a really good answer to a lot of the teams we commonly see begin used in the metagame, and has as much worth of a defensive Pokemon as Amoonguss in my eyes, which should be justified with a rise.

Chesnaught and Florges both down to C/C-
Chesnaught really struggles in the current metagame, given the dominance of Mega Latias and Mega Altaria, which find nothing but opportunities to set up against it. It is also hurt by the prevalence of offensive mons like Mega Beedrill, CB Scizor, Infernape, Alolan Muk, and Primarina. To make matters worse, Krookodile and Crawdaunt aren't as necessary of Pokemon to check given that they've fallen off recently, and Klefki is almost always better as a defensive spiker due to its better splashability, more impressive defensive capabilities, and mucher higher unpredictability. It's just a really hard mon to use right now, and doesn't even reliably check Rotom-W given that it commonly runs at least one of Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, and HP Fire. As for Florges, it just lacks the usage to be able to prove its worth in the metagame and is generally outdone in its role by Sylveon, which has some important advantages over it in the forms of higher physical bulk and a better offensive presence. Both of these Pokemon are just too unused and too hard to actually make work in comparison to similar Pokemon, and I think that drops are warranted at this stage.

Xatu up to C/C+
While Xatu doesn't appreciate matching up poorly against the tier's ever-present Electric-types, it absolutely loves the fact that Weavile is now banned. With Weavile's departure, major annoyances like Klefki and Amoonguss being better than they've ever been, and defensive rockers like Swampert, Hippo, Mega Aggron, and Gliscor all frequently finding themselves on teams, Xatu is quite capable of ruining your day. Absolutely invalidating Klefki is just magical, and doing that in addition to taking on just about any rocker or status spreader the tier has to offer outside of Rotom-W is something that gives it a more relevant and appreciated niche than anything else currently residing in C- (aside from maybe Moltres). I definitely think Xatu can rise right now, since C- felt almost preliminary given that Weavile was still around when it was first ranked.

Hope you guys enjoyed reading! Let me know what you all think, and let's be sure to keep the good discussion going these next couple of days before the update :) I'll be in charge of it this week since Pif is rather busy, so expect another post in the coming days. Thanks for reading!
 
Wut?

I can tell you from experience that Mienshao with Choice Band makes 2HKO to the typical set of Gliscor. To call it counter is to exaggerate a little.

I like the Salazzle theme, I would have to give it a try :)
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

???
 
Mega Sceptile up to A-
Losing Weavile definitely benefited this mon, making it harder to be revenge killed. It’s a valuable asset against VoltTurn teams and it walls Rotom-W from hell and back. A lot of it’s sets are being used such as SubLeech, SD, or even just Modest Sub with 3 attacks. Definitely in need of rise now.

Mamoswine up to A+
Honestly, this thing was baller even when Weavile was here. Sporting a near unresisted combination of its Ice and Ground typing, it surely serves as a awesome wallbreaker and revenge killer to many of the top mons such as M-Alt, Nihilego, Latias, and Gliscor. It gets many chances to setup rocks because it threatens so many mons with it’s dual STABs. It can also lure Pert and Rotom-W if one is willing to run Freeze-Dry. One of the best offensive Stealth rock users in the tier definitely deserves a rise.

Nihilego to B+
I have been in love with this mon since it’s dropped and now that Weavile is gone, it’s gotten even better. With so much coverage and versatility, it could run Specs, Scarf, Poison Z, Thunder Z or even Sub. Heck I’ve even seen suicide lead sets with Rocks or T-Spikes. With one of its biggest thorns in its side and it’s ability to lure some of its common checks and counters, it’s definitely in need of a rise.
 
Swampert down to A-
This one may be a little more controversial, though I feel that Swampert struggles to act as an Electric-type check as reliably with Rotom-W in the tier. While sure, it can still reliably set rocks or get a Toxic off on Washtom, it's sustaining major damage in the process and keeping itself from possibly setting up rocks another time in the match, which can be a big problem. I also think that Swampert struggles for a teamslot more than before with Gliscor and Seismitoad, the latter of which particularly gives it tough competition due to its ability to counter Rotom-W, proving themselves to be very worthwhile Ground-type rockers as of late. It can also struggle to check things like Infernape and Nihilego as easily as Gliscor or Hippowdon due to its 4x Grass weakness and lack of recovery, the latter of which can be particularly troublesome in a meta filled to the brim with chip damage. Overall, I just don't think Swampert has as much of a presence in the tier and in teambuilding as things like Infernape, Mega Altaria, and Mamoswine, and that while still good, a few metagame trends like Rotom-W's dominance and chip damage galore work against it
I agree w all of your other noms, analysis is rly thorough and cool, but I 100% disagree with this.

No way should pert drop, it's an undisputed top-3 sr mon in the tier alongside glisc and coba and it fits seamlessly on literally every possible build except full stall. It's purpose isn't meant to be as a wall, it's meant to be as a sponge and rocker. Its not supposed to beat washtom, which you say hurts pert so much. To have done its job, all it has to do is get up rocks on washtom, which it does incredibly easily, shrugging off both a burn and the 32 from pump after lefties- potentially throwing off a toxic in the process too. It counters standard mane, hard checks maero, counters or checks every steel in the tier except bulky sd sciz, pressures bulkier builds by spamming toxic, and has the bulk to basically sponge every possible non-grass attack at full. It's insanely versatile and easy to fit on teams; I've used it both on offense and balance, getting reqs and peaking top 3 with pert teams, and I've never regretted using it over glisc, coba, or seismitoad. It should stay strongly A imo.
 
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

???
because apparently the poketrainer that used that Mienshao against my Gliscor took Adamant. in that case, Gliscor with Poison Heal and being able to take Protect if that is counter of Mienshao. I apologize e.e
 
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 12 Def Gliscor: 152-179 (43.1 - 50.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

???
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 168-198 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
Only Bandshao is Adamant Bandshao!!! Plus the spread you calc'd with is outdated (not sure how much those 12 defensive IVs matter, but it seems like they matter in the first calc a bit).
 
I agree w all of your other noms, analysis is rly thorough and cool, but I 100% disagree with this.

No way should pert drop, it's an undisputed top-3 sr mon in the tier alongside glisc and coba and it fits seamlessly on literally every possible build except full stall. It's purpose isn't meant to be as a wall, it's meant to be as a sponge and rocker. Its not supposed to beat washtom, which you say hurts pert so much. To have done its job, all it has to do is get up rocks on washtom, which it does incredibly easily, shrugging off both a burn and the 32 from pump after lefties- potentially throwing off a toxic in the process too. It counters standard mane, hard checks maero, counters or checks every steel in the tier except bulky sd sciz, pressures bulkier builds by spamming toxic, and has the bulk to basically sponge every possible non-grass attack at full. It's insanely versatile and easy to fit on teams; I've used it both on offense and balance, getting reqs and peaking top 3 with pert teams, and I've never regretted using it over glisc, coba, or seismitoad. It should stay strongly A imo.
Replying to this because I agree with a Swampert drop and don't think you really considered many of Hilo's arguments. You said that it isn't meant to check Rotom-W, but that doesn't say that Swampert isn't hurt by washtom's presence in the tier. And even if it can still get both rocks and toxic off against Rotom-W, Swamp is still taking a lot of damage in the process and is preventing itself from setting rocks again if need be (Hilo already said this btw). The main reason that I don't think Swampert deserves its current rank is not only because Rotom-W can compromise its Electric-type checking abilties, but because as Hilo also said and you seem to have not acknowledged, its lack of recovery really sucks in the current metagame. Sure, it's always been something that's held Swampert back a bit, but VoltTurn and Spikes play styles are extremely prevalent and both hurt Swampert a lot in that it's easily chipped into range of not reliably checking the things it needs to. This is why lately, Gliscor, Hippowdon, and even Seismitoad due to Water Absorb have given Swampert a lot more competition than ever before, and at times can be more preferable as rockers. I just don't think that Swampert is currently on the level of anything else in A, and would have its viability more accurately reflected in A-. It also struggles to check things like Cobalion and offensive SD Scizor in a Spikes-filled meta, is struggling to check Mega Manectric all the time due to it running HP Grass more often, and isn't as versatile as you say it is, since while it has options like Roar, Toxic, and Counter at its disposal, it can only pick one to fit in that fourth slot due to its need for STABs and rocks.

TLDR: Swampert is too hampered by its lack of recovery to do its job as reliably as before at this stage in the metagame, and as a result it isn't as good defensively. Drop it to A-.
 
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