SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mk. II

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The losses of Conk, Buzz, and Pert have improved the viability of both Blissey and Crawdaunt immensely. Three of the tier's strongest physical attackers are gone, meaning that Blissey can set up rocks, whittle down teams with Seismic Toss, and spam Toxic far more readily and passively than it was able to before the bans. It's become ridiculously and passively spammable on stall/balance/semi-stall as a rocker and spdef tank, as three mons that had previously used it as set-up fodder have been removed from the meta, making it far less risky to set up rocks and switch into attacks.

The same can ultimately be said about Crawdaunt, albeit to a different degree. Crawdaunt is able to more freely set up SDs, as Pert, Buzz, and Conk can no longer switch in on either Knock Off or SD and OHKO back. With fewer immediate offensive checks available, Crawdaunt absolutely destroys balance/semistall, since any switch-in either gets set up on or has their item knocked off.

Ignoring the meta changes as a whole, Blissey is still the tier's premier spdef wall, and has the lofty title of being the only mon able to completely counter Primarina and non-stallbreaker M-Pidge. With the wallbreaking void created by the departure of Conk, Buzz, and Pert, M-Pidge and Primarina are both likely to rise in usage, further increasing Blissey's viability.




B -----> A-




B- ----> B+/A-
 
considering clefable is gone, it could actually put in some work against stall teams, as the only other unaware user is quag. its still weak to status (unless the main set is like rest talk?? but that seems bad)
I could say the same thing about Delphox, which is an obvious plug but you get the point. The issue is that the roles they fill tend to just be useless. As a trapper it has not much use since it's pretty hard to actually trap something you want to trap, as a stallbreaker it is kinda okay but loses to the sorts of Steelix and Togekiss, and the various offensive mons that are finding their place on stall all have a tendency to beat it anyways. And against offense, it's generally dead weight.

C- For Decidueye seems like a good place to keep it for a while.
 
OK yeah edited that lol. I think that it's not a pain to switch into if it doesn't set up, which is imo too hard for it to do. Ghost/Grass typing is just one of the worst typings to have in this metagame defensively, with weaknesses to Dark, Ice, and Flying. These offensive types are seen just about everywhere, on almost every team. Pursuit is the big one here, as that's on just about every serious stall team right now. It also has terrible physical bulk, which isn't helpful in a meta filled with powerful physical mons. As I had pointed out, defensive mons can handle it rather well because they can status it and ruin its sweep. This means that it can't do much vs defensive teams. Let's take two stall teams Pokeisfun posted in the SQSA thread:
http://pokepast.es/60ae62965191f149
This team has two pursuit users that honestly give Decidueye hell. It can be poisoned or burned, too. This is in addition to Doublade not letting it switch in. While it can pick up a kill or so, doing so has to capitalize off of poor play. Assuming both players are of equal skill, it's not gonna happen. It could get off a trap and kill on Alomomola but half-decent play makes this difficult to do. Deicdueye is thus not very good vs this team.
http://pokepast.es/e404c1b2c8edffc8
This teams walls Decidueye to hell and back with Mega Lix and Mandibuzz. It gets statused and Pursuit trapped. It's better than last team but still not a good situation for Decidueye here.
So if Decidueye is deadweight vs offense, the style that truly defines the meta, while also not being very good against stall, then why is it not in D rank?

Speaking of my teams,

I disagree that defensive Pokemon can handle Decidueye rather well. Very few defensive Pokemon can reliably burn Decidueye which is the only status that truly cripples it, even if Toxiced if it can launch a +2 Z Spirit Shackle on a trapped Pokemon, it's probably getting at least one essential kill still. The bulk is terrible true and the matchup against common Pokemon like Hydreigon leaves something to be desired, but Sucker Punch means its not totally useless against offense, for example at +2 you kill Latias which can't even get around by Tricking you because you hold a Z crystal. Also plenty of offensive teams don't have a switch in to Z Spirit Shackle so it's possible to get 1 kill still on offense.

Mega Lix hardly walls Decidueye to hell and back -
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 244-288 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mandibuzz is a counter sure, but it's basically the only good reliable defensive counter and not all stall teams use it. And if you can double with Stealth Rocks up, even Mandibuzz can be dealt with.

And for the first team, you are definitely overestimating its matchup against Decidueye. It has no switch ins to the Grass starter, which you should acknowledge, even Krook cannot OHKO.

Dont sleep on Decidueye, especially if you're a stall player.

 
Speaking of my teams,

I disagree that defensive Pokemon can handle Decidueye rather well. Very few defensive Pokemon can reliably burn Decidueye which is the only status that truly cripples it, even if Toxiced if it can launch a +2 Z Spirit Shackle on a trapped Pokemon, it's probably getting at least one essential kill still. The bulk is terrible true and the matchup against common Pokemon like Hydreigon leaves something to be desired, but Sucker Punch means its not totally useless against offense, for example at +2 you kill Latias which can't even get around by Tricking you because you hold a Z crystal. Also plenty of offensive teams don't have a switch in to Z Spirit Shackle so it's possible to get 1 kill still on offense.

Mega Lix hardly walls Decidueye to hell and back -
+2 252 Atk Decidueye Sinister Arrow Raid vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Steelix-Mega: 244-288 (69.1 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mandibuzz is a counter sure, but it's basically the only good reliable defensive counter and not all stall teams use it. And if you can double with Stealth Rocks up, even Mandibuzz can be dealt with.

And for the first team, you are definitely overestimating its matchup against Decidueye. It has no switch ins to the Grass starter, which you should acknowledge, even Krook cannot OHKO.

Dont sleep on Decidueye, especially if you're a stall player.

Are you suggesting he should rise? If so, I highly disagree.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
It's been a while since I've posted here, and considering we don't really have too much of a discussion slate, I figured I'd post some noms that I think would do a better job of reflecting the current metagame. Let me know what you guys think!

Rises

Infernape up to A-
Infernape's been getting a lot of attention lately, though I'm not really sure that the posts in favor of it rising lately have adequately stated what makes Infernape so good in the current metagame. I personally think it should rise to A- due to the strength of its Choice Band set, since the metagame severely lacks sturdy Fire resists. Offensive teams typically resort to using Pokemon like Latias and Primarina to respond to Fire-types, though both are 2HKOed by banded Flare Blitz with rocks down. You could argue that more physically bulky answers in Mega Blastoise, Swampert, Volcanion, and Suicune exist, though all of these Pokemon are risking a 2HKO on the switch from Close Combat in switching in. Infernape has also really benefitted from the loss of both Conkeldurr and Mega Swampert, as the former gave it massive competition as a wallbreaker that didn't require being locked onto moves for massive damage output, while the latter acted as one of the few Pokemon capable of scoffing at its STAB attacks. Mega Sharpedo's rise in viability is also a great thing Infernape has going for it, since banded Mach Punch and Choice Scarfed sets both make quick work of one of the most threatening Pokemon to offense in UU. Overall, Infernape has just responded overwhelmingly well to metagame trends, has so much versatility between its choiced and mixed attacking sets, and at this time in the metagame, has a more appreciated role on the teams it's fitted on than anything else in B+.

Doublade up to B
I personally believe that Doublade is criminally underrated in the metagame. It's a flat-out counter to Hawlucha, which has emerged as one of the most troublesome Pokemon for offensive teams to deal with. Acting as almost a 100% answer to one of the biggest thorns in a playstyle's side is valuable in itself, though Doublade has a good matchup against offense in general thanks to the combination of its high Attack, Swords Dance, and a really powerful priority Shadow Sneak, which is really nice for cleaning up. Beyond just countering Lucha and posing a threat as a sweeper, Doublade has use as a stop to plenty of other Pokemon that heavily pressure the playstyle it fits best on, like Mega Aerodactyl, Latias, Cobalion, Scizor, Terrakion, and Venomoth. If there's one thing you could use to argue that Doublade should stay B-, it's that Dark Spam is on the rise, though even then Doublade can utilize its awesome bulk and Sacred Sword to hold its own against most Dark-types (most notably Weavile and Mega Sharpedo), and also does a superb job partnering Dark-types due to its extremely valuable Fairy resistance and Fighting-type immunity. Super solid mon in general due to the plethora of offensive threats it can so easily keep at bay, and definitely something that I think should come out of B-.

Crobat up to B-/B
This nom seems to come up from time to time, but also seems to always get lost in the sea of other nominations being made. Crobat is just a super valuable offensive mon right now. Its Speed tier and ability to fire off fast and decently powerful Brave Birds is excellent in a metagame infested with fast threats like Infernape, Latias, and Celebi. Infiltrator and Defog are also two really important traits to possess right now, given the prevalence of both Aurora Veil and offensive Pokemon that enjoy hiding behind Substitutes, like Chandelure, Suicune, and particularly Hawlucha, which as I said before, lacks consistent answers on either the offensive or defensive spectrum (f u alolatales). Overall, Crobat's combined utility of possessing the fastest unboosted Defog in the tier, acting as the best offensive check available to Hawlucha behind a sub, and being one of the tier's best revenge killers is extremely good for a Pokemon that currently resides in C+, and I don't think it really has any business being so low anymore.

Rotom-C up to B
It seems as though there's a recurring theme of mons in C+/B- being too low. Rotom-C certainly has more to bring to the table than most anything else in its current subrank, given that it just gives you so much as an Electric-type. Forming amazing VoltTurn cores with Pokemon like Mega Beedrill, Scizor, Infernape, and practically any offensive mon with U-turn gives it a pretty solid niche on offensive teams, and it's fully capable of distinguishing itself from its main competitors in Xurkitree and Raikou. Its additional Grass-typing and Levitate make it way easier for it to pressure the Ground-types that Xurkitree requires two coverage moves and Raikou requires a Z-move for, and its better Speed than the former and respectable bulk and resistances to Water-type attacks that the latter doesn't have makes it easier to fit onto teams a lot of the time. Overall, Rotom-C just has a lot going for it in the meta with a great offensive typing and decent defensive qualities, and really shouldn't stay any less than just a subrank away from Raikou, if they're even staying in separate ranks at all.

Bewear up to B-
I feel that this one doesn't require as much of an explanation. Bewear's niche became a lot more viable come the departures of both Conkeldurr and Buzzwole, as now it no longer has to compete with other Fighting-types that wish to fulfill a tank sort of role. Bewear still has its fair share of problems, including its reliance on Choice Band and lackluster typing, though I feel that considering it now has way less weight off its shoulders and is more or less the best Fighting-type bulky attacker in the tier, a rise is definitely justified.

Drops

Kommo-o down to C- or unranked

I really want to like Kommo-o, but after using multiple variations of it, I don't think that it has any distinguishable niche over any Dragon besides maybe autotomize. Dragon Dance sets are outdone by Haxorus, who has much more immediate power and a better typing for setup, and Flygon, who can adequately pressure Steel-types just as well as Kommo-o and despite its worse bulk, has easier switch-in opportunities by virtue of Levitate. Choice Specs sets don't usually have any merit over Hydreigon since none of Kommo-o's attacks are nearly as spammable as Dark Pulse (not helpful that it has to rely on the unreliable Focus Blast as a Fighting-type special attack), and it isn't really helpful that its power in general isn't all too impressive. The only niche that I think could keep Kommo-o ranked is Autotomize, as +2 Speed + Z-move can put in some work, though that certainly isn't enough in my book to allow Kommo-o to stay C-ranked among much more usable threats in Ninetales, Salazzle, and Cofagrigus, or potentially even ranked at all.

Silvally unranked
Silvally's niche in the metagame stems from its Swords Dance + Z-Explosion set, though in my opinion this set is nowhere near as effective as it needs to be to keep Silvally ranked. It does a decent job chipping traditional Normal resists, though as a Normal-type breaker, the set is almost entirely outclassed by Bewear, which doesn't require setting up and a Z-move, and instead its own secondary typing, to deal with the tier's majority of Normal-type checks, and overall just has a much better damage output and the coverage needed to cover much more of the meta. Silvally's combination of poor power, average Speed, and competition from any other Z-move user in the tier is more than enough for me to think that it really shouldn't be ranked anymore. It's even more mediocre in practice than on paper, and after multiple attempts to try making this set work, I just can't get past how reliant it is on both setup and prediction to do a job that multiple other Pokemon in the their can do.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading! Hopefully these noms are all reasonable, let me know what your thoughts are! :)
 
Definitely agree with Infernape rising, conk rising means a huge fighting type threat gone which makes infernape's life easier in terms of being wanted for a team and being prepared for by other teams. as you said, mega swamp leaving also is great for it, as well as the new megas dropping all not being gr8 checks to infernape (mega obama, aggron, and camel). Weavile losing conk and mega swamp as checks also is better for infernape as it is a great check to weavile as well as scizor.

I'd also agree with crawdaunt rising a bit, as it lost 2 checks to it, as well as with the tier losing one of the best wallbreakers (conk) craw daunt can fill that roll pretty decently
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
I'd like to add on to some of those drops especially on the lower-ranked front:

C --> UR: I've seen Pearl use this early on to some degree of success, but it's been garbo ever since.
C+ --> UR?: What does this 'mon even do in this meta now? I've seen absolutely none of these since I made my Microsoft Paint shitpost back in Pearl's VR thread, so someone needs to convince me that this thing is still viable.
C+ --> C-: The nature of this meta right now is really pushing this 'mon to the brink of unusability so hard that I almost feel bad for it.
B --> C+: Idk if it's me but Lass's ability to lay spikes n suicide just hasn't been anywhere near as appreciated in this meta atm; definitely doesn't belong in B.
UR --> ~B: Won't be anywhere near as good as Conk because of lack of priority and longevity, but this thing still hits pretty damn hard and being able to outspeed a bunch of mid-speed threats like Prima. B is probably a good starting point based on what I've seen, but no higher for now.

Also holy shit Lixx that's fucking glorious
 
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I'd also like to nominate Machamp to C+

With conkeldurr gone, Machamp has a niche of a bulky guts fighting type with priority, which Heracross obviously lacks.

Although Machamp has weaker physical bulk, his special bulk is much better. Machamp lacks Conkeldurr's sustain through drain punch, but does hit harder with close combat. Machamp's bullet punch doesn't hit quite as hard as Mach punch, but it hits pokemon like weavile, mega aero and fairies.

It's definitely not as consistent since the opponent can sack to get off damage without having to worry about Machamp getting all its health back with drain punch, but it still gets bulk up to dismantle stall, as well as ice punch and knock off for coverage. The no guard set also exists, but with the confusion nerf, I don't think it's very viable.
 
I'd also like to nominate Machamp to C+

With conkeldurr gone, Machamp has a niche of a bulky guts fighting type with priority, which Heracross obviously lacks.

Although Machamp has weaker physical bulk, his special bulk is much better. Machamp lacks Conkeldurr's sustain through drain punch, but does hit harder with close combat. Machamp's bullet punch doesn't hit quite as hard as Mach punch, but it hits pokemon like weavile, mega aero and fairies.

It's definitely not as consistent since the opponent can sack to get off damage without having to worry about Machamp getting all its health back with drain punch, but it still gets bulk up to dismantle stall, as well as ice punch and knock off for coverage. The no guard set also exists, but with the confusion nerf, I don't think it's very viable.
As much as I would love Machamp to be ranked at C+, it's probably not happening because heracross has guts and higher speed. However, I do believe it deserves C- rank after experimenting with it on a webs team. It can be pretty threatening if the other team doesn't have hazard removal. A guts boosted facade hits very very hard and bullet punch is great to pick off pokemon that are weak to steel type moves.
 
It's been a while since I've posted here, and considering we don't really have too much of a discussion slate, I figured I'd post some noms that I think would do a better job of reflecting the current metagame. Let me know what you guys think!

Rises

Infernape up to A-
Infernape's been getting a lot of attention lately, though I'm not really sure that the posts in favor of it rising lately have adequately stated what makes Infernape so good in the current metagame. I personally think it should rise to A- due to the strength of its Choice Band set, since the metagame severely lacks sturdy Fire resists. Offensive teams typically resort to using Pokemon like Latias and Primarina to respond to Fire-types, though both are 2HKOed by banded Flare Blitz with rocks down. You could argue that more physically bulky answers in Mega Blastoise, Swampert, Volcanion, and Suicune exist, though all of these Pokemon are risking a 2HKO on the switch from Close Combat in switching in. Infernape has also really benefitted from the loss of both Conkeldurr and Mega Swampert, as the former gave it massive competition as a wallbreaker that didn't require being locked onto moves for massive damage output, while the latter acted as one of the few Pokemon capable of scoffing at its STAB attacks. Mega Sharpedo's rise in viability is also a great thing Infernape has going for it, since banded Mach Punch and Choice Scarfed sets both make quick work of one of the most threatening Pokemon to offense in UU. Overall, Infernape has just responded overwhelmingly well to metagame trends, has so much versatility between its choiced and mixed attacking sets, and at this time in the metagame, has a more appreciated role on the teams it's fitted on than anything else in B+.

Doublade up to B
I personally believe that Doublade is criminally underrated in the metagame. It's a flat-out counter to Hawlucha, which has emerged as one of the most troublesome Pokemon for offensive teams to deal with. Acting as almost a 100% answer to one of the biggest thorns in a playstyle's side is valuable in itself, though Doublade has a good matchup against offense in general thanks to the combination of its high Attack, Swords Dance, and a really powerful priority Shadow Sneak, which is really nice for cleaning up. Beyond just countering Lucha and posing a threat as a sweeper, Doublade has use as a stop to plenty of other Pokemon that heavily pressure the playstyle it fits best on, like Mega Aerodactyl, Latias, Cobalion, Scizor, Terrakion, and Venomoth. If there's one thing you could use to argue that Doublade should stay B-, it's that Dark Spam is on the rise, though even then Doublade can utilize its awesome bulk and Sacred Sword to hold its own against most Dark-types (most notably Weavile and Mega Sharpedo), and also does a superb job partnering Dark-types due to its extremely valuable Fairy resistance and Fighting-type immunity. Super solid mon in general due to the plethora of offensive threats it can so easily keep at bay, and definitely something that I think should come out of B-.

Crobat up to B-/B
This nom seems to come up from time to time, but also seems to always get lost in the sea of other nominations being made. Crobat is just a super valuable offensive mon right now. Its Speed tier and ability to fire off fast and decently powerful Brave Birds is excellent in a metagame infested with fast threats like Infernape, Latias, and Celebi. Infiltrator and Defog are also two really important traits to possess right now, given the prevalence of both Aurora Veil and offensive Pokemon that enjoy hiding behind Substitutes, like Chandelure, Suicune, and particularly Hawlucha, which as I said before, lacks consistent answers on either the offensive or defensive spectrum (f u alolatales). Overall, Crobat's combined utility of possessing the fastest unboosted Defog in the tier, acting as the best offensive check available to Hawlucha behind a sub, and being one of the tier's best revenge killers is extremely good for a Pokemon that currently resides in C+, and I don't think it really has any business being so low anymore.

Rotom-C up to B
It seems as though there's a recurring theme of mons in C+/B- being too low. Rotom-C certainly has more to bring to the table than most anything else in its current subrank, given that it just gives you so much as an Electric-type. Forming amazing VoltTurn cores with Pokemon like Mega Beedrill, Scizor, Infernape, and practically any offensive mon with U-turn gives it a pretty solid niche on offensive teams, and it's fully capable of distinguishing itself from its main competitors in Xurkitree and Raikou. Its additional Grass-typing and Levitate make it way easier for it to pressure the Ground-types that Xurkitree requires two coverage moves and Raikou requires a Z-move for, and its better Speed than the former and respectable bulk and resistances to Water-type attacks that the latter doesn't have makes it easier to fit onto teams a lot of the time. Overall, Rotom-C just has a lot going for it in the meta with a great offensive typing and decent defensive qualities, and really shouldn't stay any less than just a subrank away from Raikou, if they're even staying in separate ranks at all.

Bewear up to B-
I feel that this one doesn't require as much of an explanation. Bewear's niche became a lot more viable come the departures of both Conkeldurr and Buzzwole, as now it no longer has to compete with other Fighting-types that wish to fulfill a tank sort of role. Bewear still has its fair share of problems, including its reliance on Choice Band and lackluster typing, though I feel that considering it now has way less weight off its shoulders and is more or less the best Fighting-type bulky attacker in the tier, a rise is definitely justified.

Drops

Kommo-o down to C- or unranked

I really want to like Kommo-o, but after using multiple variations of it, I don't think that it has any distinguishable niche over any Dragon besides maybe autotomize. Dragon Dance sets are outdone by Haxorus, who has much more immediate power and a better typing for setup, and Flygon, who can adequately pressure Steel-types just as well as Kommo-o and despite its worse bulk, has easier switch-in opportunities by virtue of Levitate. Choice Specs sets don't usually have any merit over Hydreigon since none of Kommo-o's attacks are nearly as spammable as Dark Pulse (not helpful that it has to rely on the unreliable Focus Blast as a Fighting-type special attack), and it isn't really helpful that its power in general isn't all too impressive. The only niche that I think could keep Kommo-o ranked is Autotomize, as +2 Speed + Z-move can put in some work, though that certainly isn't enough in my book to allow Kommo-o to stay C-ranked among much more usable threats in Ninetales, Salazzle, and Cofagrigus, or potentially even ranked at all.

Silvally unranked
Silvally's niche in the metagame stems from its Swords Dance + Z-Explosion set, though in my opinion this set is nowhere near as effective as it needs to be to keep Silvally ranked. It does a decent job chipping traditional Normal resists, though as a Normal-type breaker, the set is almost entirely outclassed by Bewear, which doesn't require setting up and a Z-move, and instead its own secondary typing, to deal with the tier's majority of Normal-type checks, and overall just has a much better damage output and the coverage needed to cover much more of the meta. Silvally's combination of poor power, average Speed, and competition from any other Z-move user in the tier is more than enough for me to think that it really shouldn't be ranked anymore. It's even more mediocre in practice than on paper, and after multiple attempts to try making this set work, I just can't get past how reliant it is on both setup and prediction to do a job that multiple other Pokemon in the their can do.

I hope you guys enjoyed reading! Hopefully these noms are all reasonable, let me know what your thoughts are! :)
PAY ATTENTION TO THE CROBAT NOMS PEOPLE!!!
Honestly, these nominations are super ignored, and the bat deserves a rise to B or B- for ages. Reasoning is provided by Hilomilo. The Crobat nominations have been eluded yet were never contradicted. Therefore, if you agree, SAY SO!!! If you disagree, SAY SO AS WELL!!! Hopefully, eht will acknowledge this nom this time around.
 
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Yo, just wanna make a quick case for
Cofagrigus to like C+ or B-. Respectable bulk even if lower hp makes it decently annoying to kill if your answer is something like Krookodile, least of all because it tends to run Z-Ghost making it even more of a pain. Also likes OTR Nasty Plot being able to smack the meta around a bit, but appreciates hazards support and if it's not running Willo then it can still get hit hard by things like Krookodile and gets hurt by special attackers a bit more than you'd expect. Would say up to B but I'm too tired to make a strong enough case for this.
 
IMG_0032.PNG I would like to nominate Cofagrigus for B/B-

This has been warranting a rise for the longest time, especially in the current meta, as defensively it can hard stop a Hawlucha, as it eats any +2 attack from full and removes unburden boosts. It also annoys Scizor and Mega Bee, as both rely on their ability and without it, they're both severely neutered. But this isn't the main point, defensively, Cofagrigus is maybe a C/C+ mon. OTR is what pushes it so far above Whimsicott ( a mon I love but it's kinda ass), Aerodactyl (doesn't play a real role in the meta), and also stuff in C+ like Shuckle, or Gastrodon. Looking at it, you could say the flaw is taking two turns to fully maximize, but the counter argument is that it has the bulk to set up both, and you don't have to set up both anyway, as +2 is gets a kill vs non stall teams guaranteed if near full, and it can survive some of the hardest Knock Offs in the tier while also being able to support teammates with TR and still hitting with ok damage with a decent 95 base Special Attack. Overall, Cofagrigus is a good mon with some flaws (e.g priority, low base HP.) but it's simply leagues above the mons in C/C+ and is certainly very splashable on Bulky Offense/Balance builds and warrants a rise.



+2 228 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 202-238 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 262-309 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 244 Atk Hawlucha Sky Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 259-306 (80.9 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 190-226 (59.3 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Absol-Mega Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 170-204 (53.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 144-170 (45 - 53.1%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 170-200 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Weavile: 528-624 (187.9 - 222%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Absol-Mega: 390-460 (143.9 - 169.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 310-366 (93.6 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Cofagrigus Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 136 SpD Scizor: 474-558 (138.1 - 162.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
B- --> C
Why is this thing still b-?
Zygarde-10% struggles heavily at breaking through the vast majority of defensive mons and even struggles to obtain ohkos versus offensive teams. These traits do not bode well for something that uses a Choice Band. Its speed tier also only lets it check Raikou 50% of the time, which is not really what you want out of a Ground type. This thing needs to drop so people stop asking why it's in the same rank as Alomomola.


Just a short post to get this nom out here.
 
Crawdaunt up to A-

Crawdaunt is arguably one of the best wall-breakers in the tier, especially with Xurkitree being tested, having a great attack stat of 120 and a fantastic ability in Adaptability. Common switch ins to Crawdaunt like Alomomola and Amoonguss don't switch in well as Crawdaunt sets up SD on Alo while adamant life orb Crawdaunt 2HKOs Bulky Pivot Amoonguss with Crabhammer + Knock Off. Adamant life orb Crawdaunt also has the benefit of OKO'ing Pokemon with Aqua Jet like Chandelure, Nidoking, and Mega Aerodactyle with rocks up while flat out OKO'ing Darmanitan and Infernape. Banded Crawdaunt OKO's all of the Pokemon I just listed with Aqua jet and without rocks up. Because of this, Crawdaunt can be a decent late game sweeper too. With Trick Room rising up in viability, Crawdaunt is a great choice for a physical attacker under TR because of hard it hits and how slow it is; however, Crawdaunt also wrecks opposing TR. Many TR setters like Uxie and Cofagrigus are straight up OKO'd by Knock Off with rocks up or if they aren't holding a Z move. Semistall/ Stall also has a hard time facing Crawdaunt with Alomomola being the best check, but like I said before, Alomomola still loses to Crawdaunt because of SD. The main flaws with Crawdaunt are its speed and bulk. Crawdaunt is unfortunately very frail, having very little bulk 63/85/55. Since Crawdaunt is slow and frail, Crawdaunt is easily revenge killed. While speed may not be Crawdaunts strong suit, it can be a benefit for it. Crawdaunt is just slow enough that it's great under TR, but fast enough that it still out speeds opposing TR teams and Stall. Crawdaunt deserves more love and to be higher than B- right now. So, Crawdaunt for A-.

Calcs:
Amoonguss
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 304-359 (70.3 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Alomomola
- +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 473-559 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Adamant Life Orb Aqua Jet
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 260-307 (99.6 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 291-348 (96 - 114.8%) guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 270-322 (89.7 - 106.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan: 380-452 (108.2 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Infernape: 312-369 (106.4 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

TR Setters
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Uxie: 458-541 (129.3 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- With Z Move 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 281- 333 (87.8 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
on my phone so this is gonna look ugly af

diancie UR --> C+: went under the radar for the longest time ever, but glad to see that this is starting to get some good use once again. good rocks setter, good bulk, buffed sig move that now gives +2 defense, and as a plus, this thing pairs so well with sunfish oml kill me pls

heracross my prior nom --> B+: i know meeps wants this at a- and i honestly don't disagree because this thing is still hella legit and guts is borked, so here i am one-upping my prior nomination. And as a quick reminder from xy heracross: SOMBOHDY GONNA DIE

machamp stays UR: you're never ever convincing me to use this over heracross which has a better boosting move and outspeeds this annoying prick called togekiss
 
on my phone so this is gonna look ugly af

diancie UR --> C+: went under the radar for the longest time ever, but glad to see that this is starting to get some good use once again. good rocks setter, good bulk, buffed sig move that now gives +2 defense, and as a plus, this thing pairs so well with sunfish oml kill me pls

heracross my prior nom --> B+: i know meeps wants this at a- and i honestly don't disagree because this thing is still hella legit and guts is borked, so here i am one-upping my prior nomination. And as a quick reminder from xy heracross: SOMBOHDY GONNA DIE

machamp stays UR: you're never ever convincing me to use this over heracross which has a better boosting move and outspeeds this annoying prick called togekiss
I kinda disagree with heracross rising that high. Also, I have used machamp on web teams and it definitely has a niche. It has access to reliable priority while Heracross only has vacuum wave, a terrible move for such low special attack. Bullet punch at +1 is great for finishing off or just getting chip damage on stuff like Mega-Aerodactyl, Togekiss, Florges, Sylveon, and Terrakion. Due to this, Machamp has a slightly better match-up against fairies than heracross, as machamp can use a +1 bullet punch to do serious damage to many of them, and has facade just like Heracross. Heracross also lacks No Guard. While No Guard might not be as good on machamp as last generation, it's still a solid niche. 100% accuracy stone edges and dynamic punches are something Heracross cannot boast about. While Dynamic punch got indirectly nerfed this generation (Lowered confusion hit chance) it still is a very solid move with no guard, being a 100 power STAB move with no drawbacks and confuses the foe. Guts is generally the better choice, but No Guard is also an option. I'm not trying to say Machamp is better than Heracross, because that is not true, but I do feel Machamp does warrant a ranking. I don't think C- is too much to ask imo.
 
I kinda disagree with heracross rising that high. Also, I have used machamp on web teams and it definitely has a niche. It has access to reliable priority while Heracross only has vacuum wave, a terrible move for such low special attack. Bullet punch at +1 is great for finishing off or just getting chip damage on stuff like Mega-Aerodactyl, Togekiss, Florges, Sylveon, and Terrakion. Due to this, Machamp has a slightly better match-up against fairies than heracross, as machamp can use a +1 bullet punch to do serious damage to many of them, and has facade just like Heracross. Heracross also lacks No Guard. While No Guard might not be as good on machamp as last generation, it's still a solid niche. 100% accuracy stone edges and dynamic punches are something Heracross cannot boast about. While Dynamic punch got indirectly nerfed this generation (Lowered confusion hit chance) it still is a very solid move with no guard, being a 100 power STAB move with no drawbacks and confuses the foe. Guts is generally the better choice, but No Guard is also an option. I'm not trying to say Machamp is better than Heracross, because that is not true, but I do feel Machamp does warrant a ranking. I don't think C- is too much to ask imo.
How is Bullet Punch better against Fairy types when neutral Facade has higher base power than super effective bullet punch? Both Aerodactyl and Terrakion easily survive bullet punch from full, hell it doesn't even kill aero after rocks, and if I wanted a good priority user, I would use Scizor or Infernape since both of them actually have stab priority that allows them to consistently revenge kill targets like Aero and Terrakion for Scizor, and Mega Sharpedo for Infernape, and Weavile for both of them, which Machamp can't even kill from full lol. All the Fairy types you mentioned will easily shrug off Bullet Punch and blow Machamp away. Heracross at least out speeds Primarina and Togekiss, allowing it to easily finish them off after a little bit of prior damage, something Machamp can't do without significant chip because it relies on a piss weak Bullet Punch to move before them.


Machamp has always been outclassed as a guts user by Heracross, because no guard was practically the only reason to use it over Heracross, and no guard comes with its own baggage of significantly lower damage and inability to absorb status. It's not like 100% accurate stone edge is necessary when Facade hits most of its targets hard too. I would rather use Heracross in every practical situation, including webs. Until someone can show a replay of Machamp actually doing something that Heracross is unable to do, I think it should stay unranked.

Edit: raise Heracross to at least B. While it's no Conkeldurr, it has proven to be an absolute nuisance to bulkier teams, and even against offensive teams, its respectable bulk and decent resistances (being able to take advantage of Scarf Krookodile is pretty cool) allow it to usually at least trade 1 for 1. I played a few games on the ladder with it about a week ago, and I've seen other people use it to good success, so I think that rising it is appropriate right now.
 
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I kinda disagree with heracross rising that high. Also, I have used machamp on web teams and it definitely has a niche. It has access to reliable priority while Heracross only has vacuum wave, a terrible move for such low special attack. Bullet punch at +1 is great for finishing off or just getting chip damage on stuff like Mega-Aerodactyl, Togekiss, Florges, Sylveon, and Terrakion. Due to this, Machamp has a slightly better match-up against fairies than heracross, as machamp can use a +1 bullet punch to do serious damage to many of them, and has facade just like Heracross. Heracross also lacks No Guard. While No Guard might not be as good on machamp as last generation, it's still a solid niche. 100% accuracy stone edges and dynamic punches are something Heracross cannot boast about. While Dynamic punch got indirectly nerfed this generation (Lowered confusion hit chance) it still is a very solid move with no guard, being a 100 power STAB move with no drawbacks and confuses the foe. Guts is generally the better choice, but No Guard is also an option. I'm not trying to say Machamp is better than Heracross, because that is not true, but I do feel Machamp does warrant a ranking. I don't think C- is too much to ask imo.
I think you're missing the point here though, if you're running Machamp with No Guard, you forego the option of running Guts + Flame Orb. Further to this, Heracross is able to boost with Swords Dance and, like Conkeldurr before it, has limited switch-ins. With much better Speed and access to Swords Dance, Heracross is also able to threaten stall a lot better than Machamp. Its typing also gives it some nice resistances to Grass, Fighting & Ground, something that Machamp cannot boast. I support a move to B+ for Heracross (possibly even higher but cbf debating further), where as Machamp is out classed in UU due to its low speed resulting in a lack of offensive presence. Machamp doesn't really have a niche in UU, since Heracross can do everything Machamp does but better.

I can see a small opportunity where Flame Orb + Guts Machamp with Bulk Up + Bullet Punch could put in work, but Machamp doesn't have access to Drain Punch nor the same bulk as Conkeldurr before it.
 

dingbat

ban all garden sneks
is a Tiering Contributor
a few issues here

how can you possibly claim that machamp has a better matchup vs fairies when heracross already outspeeds every relevant fairy in this tier except Ninetales-Alola (and maybe whimsicott but it is not very relevant)? Also, what if Heracross also has the same webs support as Machamp? Bar ungrounded mons like Latias, Mega Aero, etc, Heracross can actually outspeed the entire unboosted meta, while Machamp can't even outrun shit like 108s lol (correct me if i'm wrong). And as it is, webs is already a niche playstyle; if nothing else in this tier has been ranked accordingly because of webs, neither should machamp.

I will not address bp here because someone else already did above

Also, No guard machamp is not going to make machamp any more viable if guts machamp, as i am claiming, is not viable, because it is just that inferior of an ability on champ.

i won't discuss this any further
 
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I know another update is on the way so this may be addressed then but I want to make sure Mega Sharpedo rises to A+. I'd honestly put it in S but I also tend to overhype some stuff and Cobalion still exists so capping at A+ is understandable. Sharpedo is the face of offense right now with Mega Swampert rising and it is honestly difficult to build offense without using it due to how stupid good it is at cleaning. Conversely, when building offense it is up there with Mega Aero and SD Scizor as Pokemon that you need multiple ways to take out unless you wanna get swept mid-game after your flimsy soft-check dies.

To emphasize how awesome its matchup is against offense: think of some common offensive cores. Scizor + Latias is literally 1/3rd of UU right now and is shredded by Sharpedo. Pidgeot + Heracross loses to Sharpedo. VoltTurn is cleaned by Sharpedo. Veil loses to Sharpedo barring some sick predictions around Psychic Fangs. Sharpedo resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, and Aqua Jet. Weavile loses to Sharpedo. Offensive builds lacking Cobalion are at a significant disadvantage against any Sharpedo team and the flow of the game is dictated Turn 1 to avoid being cleaned by it.

It's matchup against bulky teams have been brought up before, which is a fair criticism, but the checks seen on these teams often hang on by a thread to avoid 2HKOs from Crunch, namely Alomomola and bulky Primarina. A single layer of Spikes or Toxic Spikes make it significantly more difficult to switch into Mega Sharpedo, and while this is true for anything with hazards up, all of Sharpedo's checks are grounded minus Mandibuzz. Even without hazards, techs like Taunt Sharpedo have yet to be explored and can surprise would-be counters and turn them into liabilities.

Speaking of Spikes, Froslass has been brought up to drop which I disagree with after using it. Klefki is the most common offensive Spike setter right now but it struggles heavily to maintain them against the tier's spinners and a handful of defoggers (namely Empoleon and Scizor). Taunt + Ghost typing ensures your Spikes are here to stay for a good amount of time which is heavily appreciated by the aforementioned Sharpedo. Bringing in Sharpedo early, for example, to chip Cobalion with Spikes makes it much easier to sweep late game which Klefki can't do if they have a remover that beats it.
 

Yoshizilla315

Tournament Banned
to A-

I really like this Pokemon right now, having a variety of sets, as well as being pretty fast, and soon to be our only two electrics. I guess it is a possibility that Xurkitree will stay, but I highly doubt it. Point being, this Pokemon is going to be a lot more useful, since it's going to be our only means of fast electric STAB. It's also certainly more stretchable than Magneton, which is a plus.

So, Raikou has a lot of sets, the most popular being CM. CM sets up on a bulky waters, and is a great means of breaking them, but that's about all it sets up on, which is why I think this isn't really the best set.

Raikou also has Fightium-Z, which runs Aura Sphere, and from what I've seen, a fairly useful set. This also runs Calm Mind, by the way. Z-Aura Sphere allows this Pokemon to handle Mega Steelix if it's weakened a bit, Blissey, which Raikou can set up on if not Toxic, as well as beating non-lead Mamoswine, Krookodile, and Cobalion, all of which regular Raikou would have a hard time dealing with. Here are some calcs if you were wondering:

252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Steelix-Mega: 300-354 (84.7 - 100%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 672-792 (94.1 - 110.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine: 528-622 (146.2 - 172.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (It does about 69% with regular, so if you weaken it, you should be okay.)

252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 470-554 (141.9 - 167.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Same applies as above)

252+ SpA Raikou All-Out Pummeling (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 458-540 (141.7 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Also a similar situation as the previous two)

As you can see, this Fightium-Z can do a lot of damage to spammable Pokemon right now. However, there are a few issues with this set, the main one being the awful nature you're forced to use due to the event, being Rash. This means you lose out on speed, spdef, but you also gain power, which is nice. Also, Aura Sphere on it's own cannot take out these threats unless weakened, some of them severely weakened. Please keep in mind that your opponent should know your set, since the Raikou is forced to be shiny.

I've also been running Scarf Raikou, which is great at revenge killing Pokemon like Mega Aerodactyl, Crobat, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Sceptile, as well as Mega Sharpedo, as long as it doesn't get +2. The only thing I don't like is you're locked in, and Pokemon like Krookodile can easily revenge kill, forcing you to sack a Pokemon in some situations. Just be aware that this set isn't the best, though it can be useful depending on the set.

There's also Specs Raikou, but I don't really like that set and I've never seen/used it, but basically, what it does is it allows you to get sneaky kills on Pokemon you didn't before, like a slightly weakened Cobalion.

Anyway, those are some of the reasons why I think Raikou should be A-, as it's very versatile and can be a very powerful Pokemon. Also for the fact that it's going to soon be our best electric type, after Xurk is gone, meaning bulky waters are going to be more relevant, further proving why Raikou should be A-.

(Don't hate me I'm really bad at posting these kinds of things so if I have an error please be sure to give me constructive criticism. I also missed out on Ghostium so if someone wants to do a segment on that pls do.)
 
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I'm really not sure if Raikou is worth rising for the time being, though I think some of it may be that I really don't like some of the reasons you presented. Xurkitree isn't banned yet. If a Pokemon is going to get better because of a predicted trend that may not even happen, you probably shouldn't go saying that it should rise because something could happen to make it better. That'd be like saying that Mega Absol shouldn't drop to B like some people are proposing since Weavile, which is huge competition for it and the reason people are in favor of it dropping, might be suspect tested in the near future.

I also take a lot of issue with you bringing up Fightinium Z as a set and proceeding to provide us with some pretty odd calcs. You yourself mentioned that Fightinium Z disadvantages Raikou in that it forces it to lower its Speed and Special Defense, and honestly, the extra power isn't worth it at all. The loss of Speed loses your advantages against Infernape, Cobalion, Terrakion, and Latias, which is pretty huge considering these mons all have the tools to easily OHKO Raikou (especially when you take into account that the loss of special bulk hurts it against lati). As for your calcs, the Steelix spread you used in the first one is outdated and is from ORAS. The Blissey calc is unrealistic since Raikou very rarely reaches +3 Special Attack, and the Cobalion calc is also rather irrelevant, consdiering that without the Timid nature it'll outspeed and OHKO Raikou with an unboosted All Out Pummeling.

The Scarf Raikou argument is also flawed imo. Raikou should almost never be using a Choice Scarf, since a clearly better Electric-type user of the move in Rotom-C, which can actually hold its own against bulky Grounds and has Trick, is almost always the better option. Choice Scarf Raikou definitely has its merits, like being able to outspeed +1 Mega Shark, though I think that if you want a scarfer that can accomplish that feat, you're better off with something that has more power, like Infernape, Latias, or Terrakion. All in all, Choice Scarf Raikou is just a really niche set since it lacks moves that have very high base power and really suffers from competition from Rotom-C in the role of an electric-type revenge killer. Also, please don't bring up Specs as an argument if you've never seen or used it. I agree it's a good set but in admitting that you haven't actually witnessed it in play you aren't helping your argument all too much. Overall, I really don't think that any of your arguments as to why Raikou is worth seeing in A- were sufficient in really representing its worth in the metagame. As for whether it should rise, I think that the fact Raikou just dropped alongside the fact that it has numerous offensive and defensive checks that are increasing in relevance is enough to keep it where it is for now.
 
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