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CAP 1 Smogon's First "Create a Pokemon": Reflections, Opinions, and Closing

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Cooper, Jan 16, 2008.

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Are You Satisfied with how the First "Create A Pokemon" Turned Out?

  1. Yeah, I felt it was handled really well

    147 vote(s)
    42.5%
  2. Well, it was alright, but a few changes need to be made

    106 vote(s)
    30.6%
  3. No, I hated it

    19 vote(s)
    5.5%
  4. I really liked it, but I think the pokemon is broken, so I'm going to be stupid and say no

    43 vote(s)
    12.4%
  5. "Create A Pokemon?"

    31 vote(s)
    9.0%
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  1. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    But the whole Ananlysis is written with Compound Eyes in mind! XD

    Urm, Compound Eyes lol?
  2. junior

    junior heard ur boyf was away this weekend, wanna meet at my place
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    Ah damn. That's right. =P Forgot.
  3. Goodbar

    Goodbar

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    I know, but I think its interesting to note that nothing can really switch in that safely, even blissey will be 2HKOed by a modest specs one if SR is out (by focus blast with 97.5% accuracy). I don't think it'll be broken but it'll be pretty garchomp-esque to say the least. Either way it'll be popular though...
  4. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    I'm not disagreeing, but saying
    is quite a simplification. A team with a Compound Eyes Specs Syclant is also going to need to protect the Syclant from the 4x SR weak. Every time Syclant makes a kill it can easily be forced out by a faster Poke, or something it can't 1HKO. That gives a SRer chanece to set up, or a Poke to block Rapid Spin a chance to come in

    So it is quite like Garchomp, or Tyranitar. There's no "Switch this Pokemon in and you'll be fine" counter, but after you determin what kind of set it's running (which can be determined in part by the type of team working around it. Abomasnow present? It's Mountaineer. Two spinners? Compound Eyes.) After that it's about exploiting the weakness of that type and wearing it down (knock off will be a big help). I think that if this Poke was introduced into the standard Metagame you would either tack it onto a team and find that it's not so big a help as you thought it was, or you build a team around it's ability to take out walls, and it could be quite sucessful.
  5. TerrickTerran

    TerrickTerran

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    It doesn't really matter as Nintendo will simply reject it straightaway (There's a reason people don't take fan submissions. They're not going to risk getting sued) I do like the pokemon except for its ability however.
  6. CyzirVisheen

    CyzirVisheen Am I poplar yet?
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    There's no need to be such a downer, though. Yes, that's probably the reality of it, but we won't know what will happen unless we try, eh?
  7. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    You never know until you try, eh? Also take whatever opportunities are given to you, none of this namby pamby never volunteer crap.

    Anyone else want life advice lol? :P
  8. Zodar0

    Zodar0

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    A small suggestion for the next pokemon: I think statting up Missingno as an official pokemon (as in, not a glitch, although it could still be glitchy looking, etc) would be a nice homage to the red/blue days.
  9. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    I think Air Slash should get some mention, personally, for 100% accurate slashes with the potential for flinch-hax.
  10. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I think this whole project turned out a lot better than I thought it would. I expected the "silent majority" to make a bunch of dumb decisions and create a totally ridiculous pokemon.

    I was wrong.

    In the end, we created a decent pokemon. It's a little overpowered, but not broken. The process itself was a heckuva lot of fun. And educational for me as well. I'm happy I was part of it.

    Some advice to Hyra: I don't know if you've ever led a community effort before. But, if not, remember this -- you'll have to wear two hats on the next project. In one role, you are yourself -- posting opinions, making suggestions, and voting for stuff. You're used to that... you do it every day. But as the mini-mod you need to put aside your personal opinions and always try to act in the best interests of the community as a whole. Your ability to do the latter, will have a greater impact on the process than anything else. I'm sure you are up to the task. Based on your participation in this one, you seem to have all the right tools to be a good mini-mod. I look forward to seeing how it turns out. You have a lot of talented people behind you. Don't be afraid to lean on them when you're not sure what to do. Good luck!
  11. Fishin

    Fishin
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    I was still thinking that when the type choice was made (I mean, look at how much usage the other 4x SR weak pokemon get). Overall I think it turned out pretty well, though. In particular there were some nice art/spriting contributions.
  12. KoA

    KoA The very best...
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    This whole project has brought upon a nice sense of accomplishment upon me. I'm proud of everyone who came together and helped bring this thing to life. You have no idea how much I respect you all.

    This experiment here will be the basis of the future ones we'll have. I also nominate Hyra to handle the next one.

    I'm STILL doing the pre-evo sprite and fixing the current one with Cy's suggestions. (Sorry, but I'm a slow bastard). You can definitely count on me participating in the next and any future ones.
  13. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

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    Who really cares if Nintendo doesn't accept it. After all, we're the ones who write the simulators.
  14. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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  15. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    [SET]
    name: Mixant
    move 1: Blizzard
    move 2: Bug buzz
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Substitute / Earth Power
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Compound Eyes
    nature: Naive / Rash
    evs: 200 Atk/ 56 Satk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Syclant has the ability to tear through many of the most common walls in D/P. Compound Eyes provided Syclant with an extremely high power 91% accurate STAB in the form of Blizzard. Brick Break deals with Blissey and will 2HKO 90% of the time. Bug buzz provides a strong STAB that deals with many opponents. Substitute can be used if you do not want to risk mispredicting, which will often force Syclant to switch out. It is also useful to absorb Thunder Waves from Blissey and Cresselia. If you do use substitute than Superpower becomes an option over Brick Break as it can 2HKO Blissey with less EVs.

    If this set does not have sufficient Rapid Spin support, it will soon fall to passive damage. To combat this you can use Mountaineer over Compound Eyes, but only do this if you use an Abomasnow to set up hail or switch to the significantly weaker ice beam.

    [SET]
    name: Swords Ant
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
    move 3: X-Scissor
    move 4: Brick Break / U-Turn
    item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
    ability: Mountaineer
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This is a full physical version of Syclant. It's attack reaches astronomical levels after a Swords Dance. Ice Shard takes care of anything that thinks it can switch in on the Swords Dance and out speed for a KO. Ice Punch provides a more reliable Ice STAB.

    Fire fang, Thunder fang, Stone edge, Night slash or Shadow claw could be used over Brick Break / U-Turn. Fire fang dents Forretress, who would otherwise wall you, after a SD. Thunder fang is your best bet against Gyarados. Stone edge (or Rock slide if you don’t like the poor accuracy and want to take advantage of the flinch chance) has great coverage and can 1HKO some Pokemon you would otherwise have problems with after a Swords Dance. Night slash or Shadow claw can beat down Dusknoir and bulky psychics. Superpower is not an option on this set as the attack drop conflicts with sword dance.


    [SET]
    name: SpecsSycle
    move 1: Ice Beam / Blizzard
    move 2: Bug buzz
    move 3: Super Power / Focus Blast
    move 4: Earth Power
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Mountaineer / Compound Eyes
    nature: +Satk -Def / Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 Def / 252 Satk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]
    This set has the ability to do massage damage to most of the OU metagame, provided you predict right. If you run the low accuracy Blizzard and Focus Blast then use the Compound Eyes ability with heavy Rapid Spin support, as Syclant wants to have the ability to switch in and out freely with this set. If you don't want such a high-maintenance Poke than using running Mountaineer, Super Power and Ice beam allows you to still dent Blissey and also be immune to SR. Keep in mind that only Modest Nature and Focus Blast are able to 2HKO without SR.


    [Other Options]
    Stone Edge is a good option for dealing with the likes of Moltres and Articuno. Superpower is unable to 1HKO Blissey even with max Atk, so isn't of much note other than on the Choice Specs set, or to 2HKO with less EVs. Thunder Fang and Earth Power will 1HKO Gyarados and Heatran respectively, but don't be tempted to use them on anything that isn't 4x weak as unresisted STAB Blizzard or Bug buzz will usually do more. Most of the time its incredibly powereful STABs will cover it better than a single attack that hits Super Effective against a certain Poke. Choice Band is also an option if you don’t want to have to set up your Physical sweeper, but Syclant isn't build for repeated switch ins. Choice Scarf makes it a decent lead.


    [EVs]
    Neutral Natured Syclant with max Atk and Life Orb is never guaranteed to 2HKO Blissey with Break Break, but 200 EVs Provide a very reasonable chance and a guaranteed KO with SR in play. Any EVs Leftover from your main form of offence should go into Spd. Always make sure that Syclant can survive two switch ins to SR if running Compound Eyes. This means NEVER give it four Hp EVs. Either eight or none.


    [Opinion]
    Syclant can tear through some of D/P's prestige walls, but is extremely high maintenance. Its typing is a mixed bag. It has two wonderful STABs for an offensive Poke, but is hindered by a horrible SR weakness. Mountaineer takes care of this, but leaves it using a weaker STAB. If you can keep Syclant in good condition then it will be a great asset to your team.


    [Counters]
    Tentacruel is a good overall counter, but dies if Syclant is carrying Earth Power. If the Specs set is being run then Blissey is a good counter, or it can come in on anything other than Brick Break and Substitute on the Mixant set and 1HKO with Flamethrower, or status with Sing or Thunderwave. Priority moves, or Pokes that out speed Syclant can deal very heavy damage once they get in.

    Syclant relies on both having extremely powerful and accurate STAB moves and immunity to SR to survive. Taking either one of these away will weaken it significantly. If it is running the Compound Eyes ability then getting down SR and preventing it from being spun away will stop Syclant in its tracks. If Syclant is using Abomasnow's hail for 100% Acc Blizzard then your own weather changer will hinder it slightly.


    About your other suggestions -

    Focus Sash? Why leave yourself on 1 hp when Scarf can do the same thing and serve as a revenge killer on top. =/

    I feel as if all of the counters are being killed off. :S Still, it's only natural as we find ways to counter the counters.

    Having a 70% acc Blizzard as opposed to a 100% is really not that huge as deal for Syclant, though a Tyranitar or a Hippodon in the area is bad news...

    Bliss should Flamethrower Syclant if it gets the chance, though Thouderwave of Sing works well.

    Err, I don't want to do a damage calc, but I'll get right on it... Although Jibaku did say that Focus Blast will 2HKO with Modest, specs and max Satk so I added in a note about that.

    Alright, anything I've missed?
  16. Time Mage

    Time Mage

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    I've voted in all but one of the polls, and I think this turned out to be quite good, albeit bordering brokenness. I mean, I would have toned down the stats a bit, specially the speed (just 119 would have made it much less threatening), and reduced the movepool a notch, too. I'd prefer to have pokémon whose stats are between 515 and 540. With more than that, you either need a tight (not crappy, just restricted enough) movepool or a really bad stat distribution to not make the pokémon overpowered. Yes, you can have a not very good 555 or 580 pokémon (Arcanine, Articuno, Entei), but that's because of crappy movepools and/or crappy typing.

    Mountaineer seemed to me a bit broken at first, but now I think it's good but not broken. It has a set of advantages similar to Levitate, but compensates the protection against a 4x weakness with the fact that said protection only happens when switching.

    As for the design, I liked Just Some Chick's one much more, but this one turned out great in sprite form, and it'll be even better once Cyzir's suggestions are included into KoA's sprite (make sure to post it when you have it finished!). I'm really surprised at how my perception of the design changed after seeing the sprite.

    All in all, a very good work, and a pokémon to be proud. Congratulations to Cooper and all the active contributors.



    P.D.: Fix the conflict between the 2nd and 3rd Dex entries! :P
  17. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    also i voted "a few changes need to be made" not because of ice shell but because of the type poll, we could have had a much better type, but i like bug ice anyway.
  18. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    Focus Sash could definatly be an option when combined with Mountaineer,SD and Abaomsnow. I'll add that.

    I didn't mean that Hippo and tar were counters lol. Syclant just doesn't really like SR or rock Polish Tar all that much...

    Flamethrower Blissey was "flavour of the month" last month lol, so it deserves a mention. It's definatly better than Twave if you've got it.

    Yeah I'll do the calcs now then...

    57.58%-67.78% + 38.45%-45.34%, 252 EV's and a -Atk nature.

    It can't garuntee a 2HKO with a -Atk Nature, worst case scenario you deal 96.3% damage.

    IMHO, you're better off going with Focus Blast and Modest with full Satk EV's for your 2HKO. It'll help the other attacks more. The only reason to run Superpower is to get a 2HKO on Blissey, which can be acheived without it anyway. The only reason to run Superpower is to allow you to run Ice Beam and Mountaineer for a low maintenance Syclant.
  19. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    also i could be a joint mod, as hyra says it would slow things a bit, but we could have someone to talk to about polls.
  20. nihilist

    nihilist

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    the only thing i would do for next time, is i would vote for the first type (dark, psychic, bug, etc.) and then vote for the next type, instead of taking the top three votes and having us choose two of the three.
  21. arielby

    arielby

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    I can be the mod for the next Pok'emon?
  22. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    This has lots of grammatical problems. Here's some suggested rewording:

    [Counters]
    Tentacruel is a good overall counter, but dies if Syclant is carrying Earth Power. Blissey is a good counter to the Spec set. Against the Mixant set, Blissey can come in on anything other than Brick Break and Substitute and can 1HKO Syclant with Flamethrower, or use a status move like Sing or Thunderwave. Priority moves, or Pokes that out-speed Syclant can deal very heavy damage once they get in.

    In order to survive, Syclant relies on its extremely powerful and accurate STAB moves and its immunity to Stealth Rock. Taking either one of these away will weaken it significantly. If it is running the Compound Eyes ability, an opponent that can use Stealth Rock and prevent them from being spun away will stop Syclant in its tracks. If Syclant is using Abomasnow's hail for 100% Acc Blizzard then your own weather changer will hinder it slightly.
  23. Rena22

    Rena22

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    Compundeyes is too broken for a pokemon with these kind of stats and movepool. The only other pokes to have received Compoundeyes are Butterfree, Yanma and Nincada - all of which have restricted movepools and poor stats. And heck, this thing doesn't even look like it has compound eyes at all.

    Scizor and Forretress could be mentioned as counters for the analysis. They can take anything physical Syclant does (except for Fire Fang, which they might be able to survive) and threaten with moves such as Iron Head and Stone Edge.

    Also, if you're wondering who i am, i have been following this thread since it started, and registered just so i could take part in the polls. I have been reluctant to post my thoughts until now.

    EDIT: I also nominate Hyra and Sunday for the top job
  24. Chronos

    Chronos

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    This has been very fun.
    However, the next time we do this, I think we should have several threads going at once:
    IE:
    1. First we'll have to discuss what the heck we want.
    a. Type
    b. What it looks like
    c. Basic stuff about the poke
    2. After we've nailed that down, we could have several threads open concerning:
    a. Moveset
    b. Ability
    c. Spriting

    I think if we had a tried and true order for doing this, it would go over a lot better.
    But this has been hella fun!
  25. wiivile

    wiivile

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    Mountaineer is too broken an ability, the thing's Achilles' heal is obviously Stealth Rock... why take it away completely? Plus it doesn't really make much logical, practical sense, but Stealth Rock itself doesn't really either... Plus it would have been cooler to just create a _pokemon_ to fit in the pre-existing abilitylist. It's just too easy to just make abilities that fit your creation.

    Also, it can't learn HM Fly. No bug can. Bugs can't carry people, even if a Starly can. That's just how they made the game. Defog makes more sense.

    Also, its level-up learnset looks wrong to me. No Pokemon can learn that many consecutive "attacks". You have to mix in shit like Haze and Mist and random (but often useless) support moves.
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